I finally got a chance to test last night and MWS was sucking it down. And I can no longer attend the event I was going to be in this weekend. So I have some questions and no answers. What should the goblin sideboarding be? What cards sould be present for it?
Right now that's it. So against Goblins, probably the Tivadars and the Disenchants will replace Glowriders and Mangaras. But try to imagine what that postboard matchup will be like. The opponent is almost certainly going to bring in Needles and Tinkerers if they are not already in. Just hope he doesn't have Anarchy. So how do you appraoch this? What is the strategy?
I have found that Silver Knights are bad as a defender in the absence of offense against Gobs. So I suppose the fliers would go at him while Knights hold down the fort. That could work especially since Avengers have vigilance. But it is hardly a great plan except for game 1. Even with Tivadar doubling up the defense there should be a plan for what happens when there are 6 goblins on the table. They WILL overrun you eventually unless you get lucky with some sort of Hokori, Port, Karakas lockdown or you are just going to town with Tivadar coming in and out.
I think we should make room for atleast two Tivadar's Crusade. IMO the opponent must be allowed to see them before game two begins. That way, you can put him in a tough spot between picking off his guys with a Tivadar here and there coupled with your solid line of defense and overextending into a crusade. That way we can remove some Hokoris as well since they are probably not very good here. So cut a Disenchant and a Grunt? A Sphere? What?
The bottom line is that we need more information on a lot of different matchups. Can Thresh be beaten with only 3 Grunts total? Can storm combo be beaten minus the Spheres? I don't know yet.
After more testing, I would take out the grunts over the spheres, I have used the spheres in far more match-ups including against thresh, and it hurt them enough one of the fewer grunts in the deck to be found, especially if a glowrider is on the bored too.
I have always liked the grunt but the sphere just seems to be the card I side in more often against more decks.
After more testing, I would take out the grunts over the spheres, I have used the spheres in far more match-ups including against thresh, and it hurt them enough one of the fewer grunts in the deck to be found, especially if a glowrider is on the bored too.
I have always liked the grunt but the sphere just seems to be the card I side in more often against more decks.
Really?
I mean, really?
This comes as a complete surprise to me. I have not been quick to side in the spheres. I only used them once against IGG (where the one I played was enough to mess up his attempt to go off just before dying) I think Finn started using them just because nothing else worked. But spheres are better than Grunt against Thresh? Why do we have Grunts at all then? Why better than Glowrider? Glowrider beats for 2.
I wasnt saying spheres are better then grunts vs thresh. I said in my experience spheres slow thresh down enough for you to find a grunt and then finish them.
I have experimented with siding the spheres in vs Pikula, Thresh, Landstill and almost all combo decks and have been happy with them. Along side the glowriders, horoki and the vials it makes most decks cringe. I have even gotten a hard soft lock playing a horoki when my opponent was tapped out and having a sphere in play and just used mangara to RFG whatever land they untapped.
From my testing I would rather have 1 less grunt in the side rather than 1 less sphere.
I have managed to not ever draw a sphere, so I have no opinion yet. I am boarding them in just not drawing them.
On another note. I have been testing today online, and I have been winning - alot. And I have not really had Karakas out much at all. This is very encouraging.
EDIT: Of course, no testing against Gobs. That would be far too useful.
Why on earth were any of you playing Glowrider in the sideboard all this time? That card wins games period. And multiples are devastating.
I Love how this deck takes advantage of the strategies of opponents. This weekend, I faced Thresh, IGGy, Janky Pox, Affinity, Gobs in that order.
Against UGW Threshold, I guess Jon felt he really HAD to Force Jotun Grunt. Damn I love it when they FoW a creature. So my two Serra Avengers went to town while his Meddling Mage did nothing. That was game one. I figure Thresh needs to land a Mongoose on turn one and then counter or kill all your creatures for the next four turns to win this. That's what he did game two. But then I butchered him game three as again, he countered a big beater Jotun Grunt allowing Hokori come to town. I had enough pieces (lands, Glowrider, Karakas, Port - Needle on the Vial, though) in play to make him uncounterable, and my opponent's late Mongoose was irrelevant.
The IGGy player (Roo) was stunned, just stunned to see Glowrider come out in game one. He managed some boloney involving Ill-Gotten Gains and Leyline of the Void on like turn 2 or three. I hear that is bad for me, but I ripped the Glowrider off the top on my next turn with only my three lands and nothing else. That was the beginning of the end for him. I landed a Sphere of Resistance a few turns later and Roo just slouched as he drew and discarded card after card until he was forced to try to go off.
Pox was so easy. Do not play that deck. She (yes, she) pretty well dies if a couple of your disruption elements hit play. And they are already having a time against a deck with so many creatures. I did get upset when she got me hard with Virtue's Ruin. Yeah, ya gotta click that one. Never seen that card before, but I hope they all burn in a fire. That was game two, and I actually still won it because I was way ahead on life by then. Pox hates that. I did not use a Vial of Karakas in either of these games.
Affinity was very hard. This is largely because so many of the creatures in there fly and most of the disruption is pretty much useless. Hokori was really bad, and my Glowriders only slowed him down a turn before blocking. That said, they have essentially no answer for Mangara, and you can match their aggressive parts. But you NEED Mangara early. There are too many necessary creatures to kill. The two games I won were largely due to my opponent's inability to deal with Mangara repetition.
Goblins pounded me in the finals. I lost game one on the following: Lackey -> Siege Gang Commander, Piledriver, Warchief, etc. That was on turn 3. Sound familiar? Game two was better. I used 2 Silver Knights, Tivadar of Thorn, and 3 Stonecloakers -> Tivadar of Thorn to put him in topdeck mode when he thought he had the kill. I should have had Tivadar's Crusade, though. Game three I hunkered down with a Silver Knight and Serra Avenger for awhile, but he cheated in Ringleader, blah blah blah, and had way too many threats. I needed something to keep him scared to overcommit. He needled Karakas in games two and three, and I did not see a single Disenchant. Of course, he also Wastelanded them, so that was actually OK since the only things left to use it with were Isamarus and Tivadars.
Everyone went after Karakas with a vengeance, but Aether Vial was left mostly unharmed, except by Goblin Tinkerer who got two of them late in game 3. I think that this strategy is flawed since it is the flying beats that win the game when they do that. Anyway, the winnings payed for the four Karakases I had to buy. Can't Finn make a stinking deck without cards from the ancient days of Magic?
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Bah, another cool legacy deck I need to build. Once I've got this pieced together. I'll get around to some testing (I've too much free time as is), but I already have most of this deck (gave up on angel stompy) so it shouldn't take too long.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
i'm just curious because i'm kinda intrigued by this deck, but why is mangara in this deck? i guess she serves as spot removal, but is that the only reason she's there? perhaps i should just throw it together and see for myself, huh? or maybe i'm just missing something blatantly obvious.
i'm just curious because i'm kinda intrigued by this deck, but why is mangara in this deck? i guess she serves as spot removal, but is that the only reason she's there? perhaps i should just throw it together and see for myself, huh? or maybe i'm just missing something blatantly obvious.
calibretto
she works because of karakas and bounce creatures. you can tap and activate her ability then bounce her back to your hand and then remove their perm.
at the end of their turn you vial her back into play and repeat and rinse. she never is really out for very long.
An alternative two-drop to the grunt is Samurai of the Pale Curtain since we don't care much about our own graveyard anyway. It also has bushido making it able to able to block the dreaded Nimble Mongoose.
It doesn't do as much if it comes into play when thresh already have a sizable graveyard but he is a must remove otherwise.
I finally got a chance to test last night and MWS was sucking it down. And I can no longer attend the event I was going to be in this weekend. So I have some questions and no answers. What should the goblin sideboarding be? What cards sould be present for it?
Right now that's it. So against Goblins, probably the Tivadars and the Disenchants will replace Glowriders and Mangaras. But try to imagine what that postboard matchup will be like. The opponent is almost certainly going to bring in Needles and Tinkerers if they are not already in. Just hope he doesn't have Anarchy. So how do you appraoch this? What is the strategy?
I have found that Silver Knights are bad as a defender in the absence of offense against Gobs. So I suppose the fliers would go at him while Knights hold down the fort. That could work especially since Avengers have vigilance. But it is hardly a great plan except for game 1. Even with Tivadar doubling up the defense there should be a plan for what happens when there are 6 goblins on the table. They WILL overrun you eventually unless you get lucky with some sort of Hokori, Port, Karakas lockdown or you are just going to town with Tivadar coming in and out.
I think we should make room for atleast two Tivadar's Crusade. IMO the opponent must be allowed to see them before game two begins. That way, you can put him in a tough spot between picking off his guys with a Tivadar here and there coupled with your solid line of defense and overextending into a crusade. That way we can remove some Hokoris as well since they are probably not very good here. So cut a Disenchant and a Grunt? A Sphere? What?
The bottom line is that we need more information on a lot of different matchups. Can Thresh be beaten with only 3 Grunts total? Can storm combo be beaten minus the Spheres? I don't know yet.
here is what i am thinking. versuses goblins you arent going to deny their ability to quickly get out creatures. remember goblins can survive a freaking wrath of god and kill you in a turn or 2 after one resolves. the reason being is that they have vials and ringleaders, but goblins have to attack with a bunch of creatures to make piledriver even remotely useful. so i suggest ghostly prison to essentially halt their attack. they are only going to be able to attack with at most 2 creatures. that should give you enough time to get your engine going and taking them out.
another solution versus goblins is life gain in the tune of say 14 life at a time. if you could splash green in then an armadillo cloak on a silver knight does wonders. and for your deck no it probably will have little chance against storm decks without spheres.
i built a 1-land (basic forest) storm deck and everything in the deck costs 0 aside from the glimpse of nature and the brain freeze. generally storm decks dont need much mana, but they need a lot of card drawing power. if you could slow that down then you are doing well.
An alternative two-drop to the grunt is Samurai of the Pale Curtain since we don't care much about our own graveyard anyway. It also has bushido making it able to able to block the dreaded Nimble Mongoose.
It doesn't do as much if it comes into play when thresh already have a sizable graveyard but he is a must remove otherwise.
please read the card. samurai doesnt stop threshold. why not? if permanants go to the yard then they are removed. threshold mostly casts spells and they stay in the yard. the only perms that they will have going away are fetch lands.
I don't think the samurai is the right card anyway. Threshold is not a particularly hard matchup right now. The deck does not need to go in that direction. Ghostly Prison could work. It fits the whole taxation theme of the deck rather well, in fact. I also like that it can work nicely against Slivers, Affinity, and Zoo. But in exchange for Tivadar's Crusade? That is going to take a lot of testing to know. Either way, I, too think that we need a sweeper or something to keep Goblins from managing the alpha strike it is known for.
EDIT:
now against goblins has anyone considered ghostly prison? i suspect a prison in play with a recurring mangara beating goblins.
I think most people have found that Mangara should come out against Goblins. He is decent, but they have enough removal to limit him, and you can only have one Karakas target per turn. Tivadar is 100x better in that role, so they switch.
I think most people have found that Mangara should come out against Goblins. He is decent, but they have enough removal to limit him, and you can only have one Karakas target per turn. Tivadar is 100x better in that role, so they switch.
i honestly think mangara is better for the role against gobos than tivadar. mangara can remove the other threats goblins can create namely white lands for swords, their ports, and of course their vials.
now i thought up an interesting solution to test while i was in the crapper... what about rule of law? that card can be used to curb gobos and even storm combos. of course it isnt fail safe versus combo because they have chain of vapors.... but it essentially shuts down their advantage... drawing lots of cards and playing lots of cards.
this deck wouldnt suffer much from rule of law because you are going to mostly vial stuff into play anyhow.
Hey there, TopDeck. Please understand that I (and I hope I speak for everyone here) want you to continue to help sculpt this deck. But these ideas are a step in the wrong direction.
Tivadar and and active Karakas or Aether Vial or both is pretty much game for Goblins. He kills two per turn at no expense in cards and is very hard to do anything about. It is nothing short of devastating for them. Mangara, on the other hand, can be bashed with a Mogg Fanatic in response to his unsummon via Karakas or Stonecloaker. Plus he has to tap to remove the target where Tivadar need only enter play. And again there, he is vulnerable until you untap with him. And also, Tivadar kills any goblin he blocks and survives where Mangara is pretty useless blocking. Finally, Tivadar can not, himself be blocked. You can march him in for two, unsummon him, and plop him back down before your next turn to repeat the process. There really is no comparison. Kudzu got it right.
Rule of Law is a decent enchantment for handling combo, especially storm combo, but is completely useless against Gobs. They have Vials themsleves, so that entire argument is kinda backwards. But the most important part about this argument to remember is that just about all of the current defenses are creatures. To beat storm combo, you really have to present a clock, and naturally enchantments don't do that. Plus they do not work as well with Glowrider. Glowrider has returned to my version of this deck and has reinserted itself as the backbone of the taxation strategy. The additional card (curently Sphere of Resistance) to bring in against storm combo only further emphasizes this strategy. If you think about it, Rule of Law doesn't really help. With the incereased cost of spells, they can already only play one a turn or so.
Ghostly Prison, on the other hand, has real merit, and needs to be tested IMO.
I tried Ghostly Prison and liked it. It works rather well in combination with pro-red guys, forcing Goblins into a corner big time. But the real advantage I found was something out of the blue. I played some combo deck that killed me with Empty the Warrens in game 2 when I had two True Believers in play. So I put the prison in there for game three, and my opponent said that the card made him scoop. It didn't matter terribly in this case however - I had a Sphere of Resistance out before his second turn - but I liked the reaction I got.
Anyway, I would argue that Ghostly Prison deserves a lot of attention. We have so many anti-Goblin cards, what about decks like Affinty? Zoo? Prison works better than either Tivadar or his Crusade against these opponents.
sorry if this is a dumb question (might also belong into another forum -> rules), but i was wondering about the interaction of trinisphere and taxing cards like glowrider. (as in do they interact at all ?)
trinisphere would put the cost to at least 3 then all other costs apply ala sphere of resistance, glowrider, etc.
It is a layer question concerning Trinisphere and Glowrider (and thus a question for the rules forum), but in my estimation we would not be able to get the opponent to pay more than 3 this way.
In other news, I am updating the opening post with a lot more matchup info. I am prepared to write a sort-of primer to accmpany it as well. I just need the time.
last time I checked, Trinisphere was applied last after adding and subtracting from the cost of a spell
actually urazkor is correct. i went ahead and did a rules scan and search, and trinisphere indeed is applied last. it is additional costs first (sphere of resistence + glowriders, etc) then cost reductions (affinity, stone calendar) then trinisphere.
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Hey, guys. Finn, I love the decklist on the first page except for the sideboard. I think you can take out the 2 Tividar's Crusade - and I think this is where people have been putting the Ghostly Prisons? Again, it could almost go main deck.
Great curve! As someone was saying before, Mox Diamond looks really good here. First of all, you are running 22 land and 4 Vial in a deck with a curve almost very close to VH in which I run 20 (MoT goes to 19). The disadvantage is that, like Vial, if you dont run 4, you draw it at the wrong time (and if you do run 4, you might end up drawing it a bit too much, but you have Top for this which looks great). I understand you dont have that many slots to spare, but I think it looks good on paper.
Sorry that I only popped in to back up a few things already discussed, but I wanted to put that out there
-Stephen
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I've got a question for those with more experience with the deck. How integral is/are the divining top/fetchlands. I understand they help clear out the draws to set up the locks. And the fetchs make for Jotun Food. But from the testing I've done (MWS... so not neccessarily usefull testing) the most underwheling aspect of the deck to me has been the life loss ot the fetchs, as well as the usefullness of Top.
I tend to need the fetchs to play out before the top comes into play (turns 1-2), and after that they only really come up when you pull them out with the top. Which seems counter-productive (unless you're short of lands of course).
The only way I could go about changing the deck not to use them though, was to go for a build more similar to Angel Stompy with the lock pieces in place of the high cost AS spells (angels, equipment, wave). Running Mask of Memory as the draw. This also pushed the Jotun's to the board, putting Silver and Believer in the main. I think this is getting too far away from what you guys are testing though. And if it's working for you guys there's no reason for me to make any drastic changes like that without more testing.
Guess I'm just looking for some confirmation on the importance of top/fetchs.
Anyone?
(PS: congrats on the thread move! Always good to see more decks getting the go ahead.)
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Great curve! As someone was saying before, Mox Diamond looks really good here. First of all, you are running 22 land and 4 Vial in a deck with a curve almost very close to VH in which I run 20 (MoT goes to 19). The disadvantage is that, like Vial, if you dont run 4, you draw it at the wrong time (and if you do run 4, you might end up drawing it a bit too much, but you have Top for this which looks great). I understand you dont have that many slots to spare, but I think it looks good on paper.
Isamaru, I have to tell you that I am a big fan of Vials and Tops together. You are right that I don't want to draw them late, but it's like shuffling away lands. The bottom line is that with the setup I have hereyou get very consistent draws. I based the mana and Vial numbers pretty much entirely off of Goblins. Only D+T doesn't have to draw more Vials once you have a Top up and running. That brings me to the part about the Mox Diamonds. I think the mana and Top are tethered. Fewer fetchland kinda hose the Top, and ya can't really have eight fetchlands with fewer than six Plains. So wher do the Mox Diamonds go? hrmph
Lemme show you all what I mean.
3 True Believer
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
4 Disenchant
Right now that's it. So against Goblins, probably the Tivadars and the Disenchants will replace Glowriders and Mangaras. But try to imagine what that postboard matchup will be like. The opponent is almost certainly going to bring in Needles and Tinkerers if they are not already in. Just hope he doesn't have Anarchy. So how do you appraoch this? What is the strategy?
I have found that Silver Knights are bad as a defender in the absence of offense against Gobs. So I suppose the fliers would go at him while Knights hold down the fort. That could work especially since Avengers have vigilance. But it is hardly a great plan except for game 1. Even with Tivadar doubling up the defense there should be a plan for what happens when there are 6 goblins on the table. They WILL overrun you eventually unless you get lucky with some sort of Hokori, Port, Karakas lockdown or you are just going to town with Tivadar coming in and out.
I think we should make room for atleast two Tivadar's Crusade. IMO the opponent must be allowed to see them before game two begins. That way, you can put him in a tough spot between picking off his guys with a Tivadar here and there coupled with your solid line of defense and overextending into a crusade. That way we can remove some Hokoris as well since they are probably not very good here. So cut a Disenchant and a Grunt? A Sphere? What?
The bottom line is that we need more information on a lot of different matchups. Can Thresh be beaten with only 3 Grunts total? Can storm combo be beaten minus the Spheres? I don't know yet.
I have always liked the grunt but the sphere just seems to be the card I side in more often against more decks.
Really?
I mean, really?
This comes as a complete surprise to me. I have not been quick to side in the spheres. I only used them once against IGG (where the one I played was enough to mess up his attempt to go off just before dying) I think Finn started using them just because nothing else worked. But spheres are better than Grunt against Thresh? Why do we have Grunts at all then? Why better than Glowrider? Glowrider beats for 2.
I have experimented with siding the spheres in vs Pikula, Thresh, Landstill and almost all combo decks and have been happy with them. Along side the glowriders, horoki and the vials it makes most decks cringe. I have even gotten a hard soft lock playing a horoki when my opponent was tapped out and having a sphere in play and just used mangara to RFG whatever land they untapped.
From my testing I would rather have 1 less grunt in the side rather than 1 less sphere.
On another note. I have been testing today online, and I have been winning - alot. And I have not really had Karakas out much at all. This is very encouraging.
EDIT: Of course, no testing against Gobs. That would be far too useful.
I Love how this deck takes advantage of the strategies of opponents. This weekend, I faced Thresh, IGGy, Janky Pox, Affinity, Gobs in that order.
Against UGW Threshold, I guess Jon felt he really HAD to Force Jotun Grunt. Damn I love it when they FoW a creature. So my two Serra Avengers went to town while his Meddling Mage did nothing. That was game one. I figure Thresh needs to land a Mongoose on turn one and then counter or kill all your creatures for the next four turns to win this. That's what he did game two. But then I butchered him game three as again, he countered a big beater Jotun Grunt allowing Hokori come to town. I had enough pieces (lands, Glowrider, Karakas, Port - Needle on the Vial, though) in play to make him uncounterable, and my opponent's late Mongoose was irrelevant.
The IGGy player (Roo) was stunned, just stunned to see Glowrider come out in game one. He managed some boloney involving Ill-Gotten Gains and Leyline of the Void on like turn 2 or three. I hear that is bad for me, but I ripped the Glowrider off the top on my next turn with only my three lands and nothing else. That was the beginning of the end for him. I landed a Sphere of Resistance a few turns later and Roo just slouched as he drew and discarded card after card until he was forced to try to go off.
Pox was so easy. Do not play that deck. She (yes, she) pretty well dies if a couple of your disruption elements hit play. And they are already having a time against a deck with so many creatures. I did get upset when she got me hard with Virtue's Ruin. Yeah, ya gotta click that one. Never seen that card before, but I hope they all burn in a fire. That was game two, and I actually still won it because I was way ahead on life by then. Pox hates that. I did not use a Vial of Karakas in either of these games.
Affinity was very hard. This is largely because so many of the creatures in there fly and most of the disruption is pretty much useless. Hokori was really bad, and my Glowriders only slowed him down a turn before blocking. That said, they have essentially no answer for Mangara, and you can match their aggressive parts. But you NEED Mangara early. There are too many necessary creatures to kill. The two games I won were largely due to my opponent's inability to deal with Mangara repetition.
Goblins pounded me in the finals. I lost game one on the following: Lackey -> Siege Gang Commander, Piledriver, Warchief, etc. That was on turn 3. Sound familiar? Game two was better. I used 2 Silver Knights, Tivadar of Thorn, and 3 Stonecloakers -> Tivadar of Thorn to put him in topdeck mode when he thought he had the kill. I should have had Tivadar's Crusade, though. Game three I hunkered down with a Silver Knight and Serra Avenger for awhile, but he cheated in Ringleader, blah blah blah, and had way too many threats. I needed something to keep him scared to overcommit. He needled Karakas in games two and three, and I did not see a single Disenchant. Of course, he also Wastelanded them, so that was actually OK since the only things left to use it with were Isamarus and Tivadars.
Everyone went after Karakas with a vengeance, but Aether Vial was left mostly unharmed, except by Goblin Tinkerer who got two of them late in game 3. I think that this strategy is flawed since it is the flying beats that win the game when they do that. Anyway, the winnings payed for the four Karakases I had to buy. Can't Finn make a stinking deck without cards from the ancient days of Magic?
Currently Running
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Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
now against goblins has anyone considered ghostly prison? i suspect a prison in play with a recurring mangara beating goblins.
calibretto
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she works because of karakas and bounce creatures. you can tap and activate her ability then bounce her back to your hand and then remove their perm.
at the end of their turn you vial her back into play and repeat and rinse. she never is really out for very long.
It doesn't do as much if it comes into play when thresh already have a sizable graveyard but he is a must remove otherwise.
here is what i am thinking. versuses goblins you arent going to deny their ability to quickly get out creatures. remember goblins can survive a freaking wrath of god and kill you in a turn or 2 after one resolves. the reason being is that they have vials and ringleaders, but goblins have to attack with a bunch of creatures to make piledriver even remotely useful. so i suggest ghostly prison to essentially halt their attack. they are only going to be able to attack with at most 2 creatures. that should give you enough time to get your engine going and taking them out.
another solution versus goblins is life gain in the tune of say 14 life at a time. if you could splash green in then an armadillo cloak on a silver knight does wonders. and for your deck no it probably will have little chance against storm decks without spheres.
i built a 1-land (basic forest) storm deck and everything in the deck costs 0 aside from the glimpse of nature and the brain freeze. generally storm decks dont need much mana, but they need a lot of card drawing power. if you could slow that down then you are doing well.
please read the card. samurai doesnt stop threshold. why not? if permanants go to the yard then they are removed. threshold mostly casts spells and they stay in the yard. the only perms that they will have going away are fetch lands.
EDIT:
I think most people have found that Mangara should come out against Goblins. He is decent, but they have enough removal to limit him, and you can only have one Karakas target per turn. Tivadar is 100x better in that role, so they switch.
i honestly think mangara is better for the role against gobos than tivadar. mangara can remove the other threats goblins can create namely white lands for swords, their ports, and of course their vials.
now i thought up an interesting solution to test while i was in the crapper... what about rule of law? that card can be used to curb gobos and even storm combos. of course it isnt fail safe versus combo because they have chain of vapors.... but it essentially shuts down their advantage... drawing lots of cards and playing lots of cards.
this deck wouldnt suffer much from rule of law because you are going to mostly vial stuff into play anyhow.
Tivadar and and active Karakas or Aether Vial or both is pretty much game for Goblins. He kills two per turn at no expense in cards and is very hard to do anything about. It is nothing short of devastating for them. Mangara, on the other hand, can be bashed with a Mogg Fanatic in response to his unsummon via Karakas or Stonecloaker. Plus he has to tap to remove the target where Tivadar need only enter play. And again there, he is vulnerable until you untap with him. And also, Tivadar kills any goblin he blocks and survives where Mangara is pretty useless blocking. Finally, Tivadar can not, himself be blocked. You can march him in for two, unsummon him, and plop him back down before your next turn to repeat the process. There really is no comparison. Kudzu got it right.
Rule of Law is a decent enchantment for handling combo, especially storm combo, but is completely useless against Gobs. They have Vials themsleves, so that entire argument is kinda backwards. But the most important part about this argument to remember is that just about all of the current defenses are creatures. To beat storm combo, you really have to present a clock, and naturally enchantments don't do that. Plus they do not work as well with Glowrider. Glowrider has returned to my version of this deck and has reinserted itself as the backbone of the taxation strategy. The additional card (curently Sphere of Resistance) to bring in against storm combo only further emphasizes this strategy. If you think about it, Rule of Law doesn't really help. With the incereased cost of spells, they can already only play one a turn or so.
Ghostly Prison, on the other hand, has real merit, and needs to be tested IMO.
I tried Ghostly Prison and liked it. It works rather well in combination with pro-red guys, forcing Goblins into a corner big time. But the real advantage I found was something out of the blue. I played some combo deck that killed me with Empty the Warrens in game 2 when I had two True Believers in play. So I put the prison in there for game three, and my opponent said that the card made him scoop. It didn't matter terribly in this case however - I had a Sphere of Resistance out before his second turn - but I liked the reaction I got.
Anyway, I would argue that Ghostly Prison deserves a lot of attention. We have so many anti-Goblin cards, what about decks like Affinty? Zoo? Prison works better than either Tivadar or his Crusade against these opponents.
trinisphere would put the cost to at least 3 then all other costs apply ala sphere of resistance, glowrider, etc.
In other news, I am updating the opening post with a lot more matchup info. I am prepared to write a sort-of primer to accmpany it as well. I just need the time.
actually urazkor is correct. i went ahead and did a rules scan and search, and trinisphere indeed is applied last. it is additional costs first (sphere of resistence + glowriders, etc) then cost reductions (affinity, stone calendar) then trinisphere.
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Great curve! As someone was saying before, Mox Diamond looks really good here. First of all, you are running 22 land and 4 Vial in a deck with a curve almost very close to VH in which I run 20 (MoT goes to 19). The disadvantage is that, like Vial, if you dont run 4, you draw it at the wrong time (and if you do run 4, you might end up drawing it a bit too much, but you have Top for this which looks great). I understand you dont have that many slots to spare, but I think it looks good on paper.
Sorry that I only popped in to back up a few things already discussed, but I wanted to put that out there
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I tend to need the fetchs to play out before the top comes into play (turns 1-2), and after that they only really come up when you pull them out with the top. Which seems counter-productive (unless you're short of lands of course).
The only way I could go about changing the deck not to use them though, was to go for a build more similar to Angel Stompy with the lock pieces in place of the high cost AS spells (angels, equipment, wave). Running Mask of Memory as the draw. This also pushed the Jotun's to the board, putting Silver and Believer in the main. I think this is getting too far away from what you guys are testing though. And if it's working for you guys there's no reason for me to make any drastic changes like that without more testing.
Guess I'm just looking for some confirmation on the importance of top/fetchs.
Anyone?
(PS: congrats on the thread move! Always good to see more decks getting the go ahead.)
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