in the essence of 'free speech' i have been warned by AoK for my point on this redundant deck.
I am not saying 'i hate this deck', noone should read my words this way. personally, i do not see how one could read my words this way.
I simply stated that the premise of the deck, being 'cheating' big creatures into play with nifty tricks, is not the same with naught/stife and goyf in general.
but it is weaker (at present).
my point is, that the deck is not strong at the moment. it is better to replace horror/ sceptre tricks, with stifle/naught as the stifle can actually be used, but sceptre is limited.
AoK and ors, please explain your point without your simple critical assessment on anything negative that is said about hte deck.
EDIT: i have played with SJ online, and with this deck in real life. no disrestect to SJ. just a critic of the deck. as i would with any deck
I objected to the way you put it, not the fact that you have an objection. Posting a completely different decklist that has nothing to do with the topic isn't helpful or relevant to the discussion in the least. It was an attempt to flame, im my opinion, and I treated it as such.
Now, the metagame seems to have shifted. When this list was originally posted here, there were results that were satisfactory to me, enough so that I moved the list here. It was not because "he was my buddy". It was not for any other reason. It WAS because of the results I had been shown.
The answer here is not to simply ditch this idea in favor of a completely different premise; it is to tweak the existing list into something that can beat today's threats.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
Quote from Yukora »
This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
Quote from RedDwarfian »
Yes mistress...
Quote from About epic-level D&D »
There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
Quote from Concerning breeding habits of humans in fantasy games »
I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
The fact is that the premise of the deck is a good one. I think that Isamaru was simply so obtuse about which cards make the cut that he was therefor not able to follow other options. And he was particular about the deck meeting with his approval on every last card.
I remember a long way back when somebody mentioned a different route with Trinket Mage and far fewer copies of Despotic Scepter and Stylus. it seems clear to me that this is certainly a possibility. This would certainly alter the dynamics of the deck- maybe for the better.
My point is that perhaps Isamaru, while meaning well, was actually an impediment to the deck's advancement and now we can see it through to its natural conclusion in another direction.
Has threads of disloyalty been tried instead of gilded drake. I know it can re-occur with stronghold + scepter, but if you are going to lower the number or Stylus and Scepter Threads seems better. I know you can stifle dreadnought but I don't think it is a good idea, for reasons previously stated.
Has threads of disloyalty been tried instead of gilded drake. I know it can re-occur with stronghold + scepter, but if you are going to lower the number or Stylus and Scepter Threads seems better. I know you can stifle dreadnought but I don't think it is a good idea, for reasons previously stated.
Gilded Drake can be Viled in to play, costs less to play, is just as useless as Threads of Disloyalty when you opponent has no creatures, and it can be removed after it has done its job without the creature going back to the opponent.
Gilded Drake is better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Than why bother even mentioning it? Than why bother even posting in this thread?
Since SJ leaving of MTGS this thread has seen no input. Due to this Apokalypse Kid said it was terrible, other people agreed and flamed saying this deck is trash. I am personally tired got tired of it so I spoke up. There are a lot of innovations that has been made to this deck. There was even talk of putting in MTGTS's competition. With the resurrection of this thread it shows the mindless typing that is insulting to the creation of new ideas.
This can be proven by SwampMosquito's idea. Threads have been talked about before, and SJ has proved that Drake is a better option. One of the problems that SJ had, according to his final post and talking to him, is that people just do not want to read and just go ahead post there thoughts anyways. Regardless of the stupidity and lack of thought, they had not innovation or something to discuss, they want to trash someone else’s idea and not be punished for it. The legacy moderators have done a terrible job in the years of protecting there users. Not just on mtgsalvation.com but on others as well.
Now let's look at a post that proves this new point.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
What are you smoking, and can I have some of it? Where are the moderators? Where are people thinking? I have made fun of this post so much that I was going to make some random decklist just to keep these styles of posts coming.
burkey_boy's insane idea of "free speech" is insane. One of the core ideas in VH is; that it always has a play every turn. Adding the Stifle + Dreadnaught and adding green to it and cutting the core of the deck make your deck not VH. In essence you have said “+4 goyf” in your posts in this thread. This deck is built on winning the Tarmogoyf war by abusing other facets of the game.
I hope I say the clear. TARMOGOYF IS NOT THE BEST CREATURE EVER PRINTED. NOT EVERY DECK NEEDS TARMOGOYF. SAYING THAT A DECK SHOULD GO +4 GOYF IS LAZYNESS ON THE POSTER.
I am disappointed in the quality of this thread. Now I see clearly why SJ left.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
but look at eh premise of getting a 7/7 into play for 2 using 2 cards... verses getting a 6/7 into play for 1 card.
it is just weaker.
im not a 'killer of new ideas' but for an idea to be good, it must be actually good. not just average.
fact is that the basis of teh deck, being getting big creatures into play for cheap, now can be done better.
but look at eh premise of getting a 7/7 into play for 2 using 2 cards... verses getting a 6/7 into play for 1 card.
it is just weaker.
im not a 'killer of new ideas' but for an idea to be good, it must be actually good. not just average.
fact is that the basis of teh deck, being getting big creatures into play for cheap, now can be done better.
If you truly believe so, and are too lazy to find out whether you are right or wrong through your own research, then continue believing this. After a year of individually explaining himself to each critic, Stephen got tired, and justifiably so: It's not anybody's responsibility to explain the deck to anybody else. People will continue believing whatever they want to believe no matter what.
You each are truly the ignorant ones, but I am done here as well. I don't feel like explaining the same points that have already been addressed so many times. This thread has been dead for a long time now. The only thing keeping it alive were a few individuals that were actually open to new ideas.
So, if the deck is so bad, why are you each posting on this thread still? What do you have to prove, and to whom?
There's not even a fight to pick; the thread is simply abandoned. You're arguing with nobody, but just to clear things up, you still don't understand. The end.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner! Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
I think your missing how good Gilded Drake is. Gilded Drake is usually the best creature in the deck (obviously not against creature-less decks). And Scepter/Stylus are probably the best ways to abuse Drake since they don't require constant mana sinks. Horror just happens to be one of the best finishers to put in that shell since it can be tutored for with the same card the deck already runs, put into play at the same vial setting, and has evasion which is a big plus over goyf. Scepter/Stylus also allow you to use other cards like Stronghold, Mesmeric Fiend, Icy Prison and more. The deck doesn't currently run a lot of these options but you can obviously customize it to fit your meta game.
by the way, this thread should be moved, it is not a proven competitive deck anymore (if it ever was)
it cant beat gobs
it cant beat TES
"" belcher
"" enchantress
"" thresh
what can it beat?
I'll concede that it can't really beat enchantress (which isn't exactly a top contender anyways), but how much testing have you done to back up any of those other claims. The deck uses the two most disruptive colors in Legacy, it definitely can beat TES and Belcher especially post-board and just one or 2 pieces of disruption can easily be enough since your clock is a 7/7 beater. Goblins is tight but it is on the decline and you have to know what the really bad for you cards are and how to board. Things like Gempalm Incinerator can wreck you but if you boarded in Yixlid Jailer you neutralize Incinerator. And you have access to things like E. Plague. Against thresh your best card is probably drake. Thresh usually has major problems when you drake their goyfs, especially since if you have vial those drakes are uncounterable. The MU isn't overwhelmingly in your favor since sometimes the deck just goes mongoose, gofy, 4 free counters but how many decks don't have a problem with draws like that?
I'm not trying to say Vile Horror is some amazing meta breaking deck but its nowhere near as bad as most people are making it out to be. It doesn't play what are considered the best cards (excluding things like confidant), but its not like its throwing around strictly inferior cards to the other options. The deck is based around a lot of synergistic effects and throwing in the "best" cards won't really help a lot of times. Isamaru wanted to play something different and use different cards, which is fine since he isn't using cards that they are obviously better versions of. Which is why things like the Counterspell vs. Cancel are stupid. Counterspell is going to be better barring random things like 3sphere, chalice for 2, meddling mage etc. But point out cards like that in here.
This deck isn't the best one, but why bash this one instead of all the other ones on here? Its fine if you want to say that you don't think its optimal in the meta but either try to make some positive changes or leave it. I'd be one of the first to say this (and a few others) don't belong in Proven, but last I heard the mods are waiting for primers to be written before moving decks around so complaining about it isn't going to change much. So could everyone just stop the random bashing of other sides views and either make changes to the deck or let the thread die.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Vile Horror or Brand Horror are viable versions of this Archetype. The deck can work well against aggro control, and that is the current meta. Almost any deck can be tweaked to beat any meta, and these are no different.
The debate that a 7/7 for 2 cards isn't as good as a 5/6 for 1 is valid, but so is a 12/12 for 2 cards. I think Dreadnought is a better archetype, but Gilded Drake is just amazing against so many decks, and steals 5/6's, 7/7's, & 12/12's.
The archetype is viable, but if you aren't here to be productive, maybe you should click the little LINK.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
The debate that a 7/7 for 2 cards isn't as good as a 5/6 for 1 is valid, but so is a 12/12 for 2 cards. I think Dreadnought is a better archetype, but Gilded Drake is just amazing against so many decks, and steals 5/6's, 7/7's, & 12/12's.
The 7/7 is not the main kill condiction for the deck.
Also, "The debate that a 7/7 for 2 cards isn't as good as a 5/6 for 1 is valid, but so is a 12/12 for 2 cards. " Does not exist.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Team Draw 7: Getting Card Advantage in XCB
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Why don't you share your list. Maybe a better list will prevent it from getting removed from the proven section.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I am not saying 'i hate this deck', noone should read my words this way. personally, i do not see how one could read my words this way.
I simply stated that the premise of the deck, being 'cheating' big creatures into play with nifty tricks, is not the same with naught/stife and goyf in general.
but it is weaker (at present).
my point is, that the deck is not strong at the moment. it is better to replace horror/ sceptre tricks, with stifle/naught as the stifle can actually be used, but sceptre is limited.
AoK and ors, please explain your point without your simple critical assessment on anything negative that is said about hte deck.
EDIT: i have played with SJ online, and with this deck in real life. no disrestect to SJ. just a critic of the deck. as i would with any deck
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
Now, the metagame seems to have shifted. When this list was originally posted here, there were results that were satisfactory to me, enough so that I moved the list here. It was not because "he was my buddy". It was not for any other reason. It WAS because of the results I had been shown.
The answer here is not to simply ditch this idea in favor of a completely different premise; it is to tweak the existing list into something that can beat today's threats.
"I am in the arcane, and the arcane is in me."
Official Matron Mother of Clan Planar Chaos
Awesome Avatar and signature by DarkNightCavalier
Deraxas, Dark Maiden of Shimia,, still oddly obsessed with a mindmage.
I remember a long way back when somebody mentioned a different route with Trinket Mage and far fewer copies of Despotic Scepter and Stylus. it seems clear to me that this is certainly a possibility. This would certainly alter the dynamics of the deck- maybe for the better.
My point is that perhaps Isamaru, while meaning well, was actually an impediment to the deck's advancement and now we can see it through to its natural conclusion in another direction.
4 Stifle
4 Trinket Mage
1 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Pithing Needle
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Despotic Scepter
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Gilded Drake
3 Duress
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
1 Flooded Strand
4 Swamp
4 Island
How's that for starters?
Gilded Drake can be Viled in to play, costs less to play, is just as useless as Threads of Disloyalty when you opponent has no creatures, and it can be removed after it has done its job without the creature going back to the opponent.
Gilded Drake is better.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
MTGS does not deserve to see it.
I do not care.
uhh...why?
And robert, lower stylus/scepter=trinket mage=you really have the same #
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
Than why bother even mentioning it?
Than why bother even posting in this thread?
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Since SJ leaving of MTGS this thread has seen no input. Due to this Apokalypse Kid said it was terrible, other people agreed and flamed saying this deck is trash. I am personally tired got tired of it so I spoke up. There are a lot of innovations that has been made to this deck. There was even talk of putting in MTGTS's competition. With the resurrection of this thread it shows the mindless typing that is insulting to the creation of new ideas.
This can be proven by SwampMosquito's idea. Threads have been talked about before, and SJ has proved that Drake is a better option. One of the problems that SJ had, according to his final post and talking to him, is that people just do not want to read and just go ahead post there thoughts anyways. Regardless of the stupidity and lack of thought, they had not innovation or something to discuss, they want to trash someone else’s idea and not be punished for it. The legacy moderators have done a terrible job in the years of protecting there users. Not just on mtgsalvation.com but on others as well.
Now let's look at a post that proves this new point.
What are you smoking, and can I have some of it? Where are the moderators? Where are people thinking? I have made fun of this post so much that I was going to make some random decklist just to keep these styles of posts coming.
burkey_boy's insane idea of "free speech" is insane. One of the core ideas in VH is; that it always has a play every turn. Adding the Stifle + Dreadnaught and adding green to it and cutting the core of the deck make your deck not VH. In essence you have said “+4 goyf” in your posts in this thread. This deck is built on winning the Tarmogoyf war by abusing other facets of the game.
I hope I say the clear. TARMOGOYF IS NOT THE BEST CREATURE EVER PRINTED. NOT EVERY DECK NEEDS TARMOGOYF. SAYING THAT A DECK SHOULD GO +4 GOYF IS LAZYNESS ON THE POSTER.
I am disappointed in the quality of this thread. Now I see clearly why SJ left.
This is Spam.
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
If he was, then my point was proven.
So is this
it is just weaker.
im not a 'killer of new ideas' but for an idea to be good, it must be actually good. not just average.
fact is that the basis of teh deck, being getting big creatures into play for cheap, now can be done better.
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
If you truly believe so, and are too lazy to find out whether you are right or wrong through your own research, then continue believing this. After a year of individually explaining himself to each critic, Stephen got tired, and justifiably so: It's not anybody's responsibility to explain the deck to anybody else. People will continue believing whatever they want to believe no matter what.
You each are truly the ignorant ones, but I am done here as well. I don't feel like explaining the same points that have already been addressed so many times. This thread has been dead for a long time now. The only thing keeping it alive were a few individuals that were actually open to new ideas.
So, if the deck is so bad, why are you each posting on this thread still? What do you have to prove, and to whom?
There's not even a fight to pick; the thread is simply abandoned. You're arguing with nobody, but just to clear things up, you still don't understand. The end.
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
I'll concede that it can't really beat enchantress (which isn't exactly a top contender anyways), but how much testing have you done to back up any of those other claims. The deck uses the two most disruptive colors in Legacy, it definitely can beat TES and Belcher especially post-board and just one or 2 pieces of disruption can easily be enough since your clock is a 7/7 beater. Goblins is tight but it is on the decline and you have to know what the really bad for you cards are and how to board. Things like Gempalm Incinerator can wreck you but if you boarded in Yixlid Jailer you neutralize Incinerator. And you have access to things like E. Plague. Against thresh your best card is probably drake. Thresh usually has major problems when you drake their goyfs, especially since if you have vial those drakes are uncounterable. The MU isn't overwhelmingly in your favor since sometimes the deck just goes mongoose, gofy, 4 free counters but how many decks don't have a problem with draws like that?
I'm not trying to say Vile Horror is some amazing meta breaking deck but its nowhere near as bad as most people are making it out to be. It doesn't play what are considered the best cards (excluding things like confidant), but its not like its throwing around strictly inferior cards to the other options. The deck is based around a lot of synergistic effects and throwing in the "best" cards won't really help a lot of times. Isamaru wanted to play something different and use different cards, which is fine since he isn't using cards that they are obviously better versions of. Which is why things like the Counterspell vs. Cancel are stupid. Counterspell is going to be better barring random things like 3sphere, chalice for 2, meddling mage etc. But point out cards like that in here.
This deck isn't the best one, but why bash this one instead of all the other ones on here? Its fine if you want to say that you don't think its optimal in the meta but either try to make some positive changes or leave it. I'd be one of the first to say this (and a few others) don't belong in Proven, but last I heard the mods are waiting for primers to be written before moving decks around so complaining about it isn't going to change much. So could everyone just stop the random bashing of other sides views and either make changes to the deck or let the thread die.
what, that this deck is a joke? KTHXBI
Spam Warning
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
Thank you to R&Doom at Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe for the banner!
Thank you Erasmus for the Avatar!
Clan A.R.D.
MtG Music Video - Simple Plan's Untitled
The debate that a 7/7 for 2 cards isn't as good as a 5/6 for 1 is valid, but so is a 12/12 for 2 cards. I think Dreadnought is a better archetype, but Gilded Drake is just amazing against so many decks, and steals 5/6's, 7/7's, & 12/12's.
The archetype is viable, but if you aren't here to be productive, maybe you should click the little LINK.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
The 7/7 is not the main kill condiction for the deck.
Also, "The debate that a 7/7 for 2 cards isn't as good as a 5/6 for 1 is valid, but so is a 12/12 for 2 cards. " Does not exist.