You shall train with me in MWS... kinda. You know the deck very well by now though.
That's somewhat the strategy, but I've never actually thought of the Centaurs. I only think of it as a temporary payment of life. The main point is you never play a Horror unless you're paying 0 or 3 life for it.
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I was skimming through other Black threads and realized I'm stupid for forgetting about Sickening Shoal. It can only give -2/-2 with pitch (but can be hard-casted late game), but is free and instant speed and has CMC 2 (transmute and pitch for 1BU and 2 cards). Kills piledriver, etc. and Lacky too.
Is that worth 2 cards? Or is Plague just much better with not giving card disadvantage? My strategy vs. Goblins is Funeral Charms to surive long enough to cast a plague turn 3. (And Funeral Charms also have utility to come in vs. Control decks as added discard)
Viroid also slapped me and pointed out Hydroblast or BEB could be another Goblin board solution... but I'm thinking what's most versatile while still being good enough... and I think Funeral Charm + Plague is better than going strong anti-goblins as they work on a lot of other things as well.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Well, I just discussed with you I think that Terror would be eqaulyl effective agaisn tthe stuff you would cast the Shoal on. I think that Sickening Dreams, however would be effective. Yoru lack of Mana Maze still disturbes me as it is effective against far more that just Solidarity(hint:Angel Stompy)
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i dont think the shoal is a good idea. against goblins, you want card card advantage, not disadvantage hence, i think infest is better. with infest, its okay that they dropped a siege gang off of lacky, bcs you sweep them all away with infest.
btw, i love this deck, and ill try to build it stupid expensive blue duals:angry:
Quote from Isamaru »
I was skimming through other Black threads and realized I'm stupid for forgetting about Sickening Shoal. It can only give -2/-2 with pitch (but can be hard-casted late game), but is free and instant speed and has CMC 2 (transmute and pitch for 1BU and 2 cards). Kills piledriver, etc. and Lacky too.
Is that worth 2 cards? Or is Plague just much better with not giving card disadvantage? My strategy vs. Goblins is Funeral Charms to surive long enough to cast a plague turn 3. (And Funeral Charms also have utility to come in vs. Control decks as added discard)
Viroid also slapped me and pointed out Hydroblast or BEB could be another Goblin board solution... but I'm thinking what's most versatile while still being good enough... and I think Funeral Charm + Plague is better than going strong anti-goblins as they work on a lot of other things as well.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Thanks, apokalypsekid9, if you do just give me credit and put up tournament results here to discuss.
Shoal stays out, but I'll still ponder about Sickening Dreams before Monday. Mana Maze stays out in my meta game, but in larger ones it comes back in.
I just had a conversation with someone on MSN... I gave them a few explanations and a sideboarding synopsis... kinda
SJ says:
hey, who's this?
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm just a magic player interested in your Vial Horror deck
SJ says:
oh, hey
how are you
are you from MTGSalvation?
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm everywhere
I haven't posted yet. I've been trying to test it on MWS... but yeah... MWS...
I've played maybe 3 matches vs. good decks. But I question the players
SJ says:
did you win?
Lil_Dragon says:
Yeah
SJ says:
let me play you with it, maybe you'll see something you didn't before
Lil_Dragon says:
Well I have to go soon
SJ says:
okay
i have to eat dinner i guess
so IM me when you're available if you wan't
Lil_Dragon says:
anyways, first question, why 4 Despotic Scepter?
why not 3 and 3?
SJ says:
good question
Despotic Scepter is more important
to the deck
Lil_Dragon says:
less vunerable to Pithing needle
SJ says:
the way it is built
Volrath's Stronghold
is the SOLE reason to run 4+2
sadly it has to be done
ive never had a scepter/staff needled though
they hit vial first - always
and if they don't, then I can work around it
draw into bounce, transmute, find a stylus, etc.
Lil_Dragon says:
what is scepter + stronghold good against?
SJ says:
Recursion
lets say you've facing control
Lil_Dragon says:
guilded drake
SJ says:
they swords your Horror
you have the option (though I usually dont) to not gain 7
put horror in yard
and put it back on top
to replay
countering a swords
with Drake, its good vs. combos with creatures, important creatures, reanimator, large creatures, or large and somewhat slower aggro
steal a creature every turn
Lil_Dragon says:
another question. Do you ever hardcast Infiltrator?
I've done it a couple times... b/c i have no threats and I had a jitte
and it seems like a good blocker vs. gobs
SJ says:
yes hard casted a lot
cast Jitte, EOT infiltrator
equip, swing
its a horrible blocker vs. goblins, sadly
Pro Blue on the stupid Piledrivers
it can block lacky if you go first though
Lil_Dragon says:
and also, this is the manabase I've been playing:
-1 Watery grave, -2 Tainted Isle. -1 Swamp. +1 Island, +3 wasteland
it makes the deck less vunerable to Wasteland. And I don't see the need for so much blue production.
all your blu espells are single blue.
makes your thresh matchup a little better too b/c you can waste their stuff.
SJ says:
haha getting them closer to threshold?
this deck can definitely support wasteland, I just havent resorted back to it in a while
Lil_Dragon says:
threshold has a horrible manabase
SJ says:
true
all the spells are a single blue
and there are only 3
spells
and 2 can be vialed out
running 1 island is a waste of your time
wasteland does not hurt the deck, and not being able to turn 2 hymn ruins your life
and watery grave is good to fetch EOT
Lil_Dragon says:
I've never had that problem though
SJ says:
ORLY?
Lil_Dragon says:
but i see what your saying
and keep in mind, I've only played like ~7 matches
SJ says:
so -1 swamp, -2 tainted isle, +3 wasteland is something I'd consider trying out
thats good that you're testing it out
sign up for MTGSalvation (register) please
and post your results on the thread
I'd appreciate it
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm registured. I just haven't done any good testing yet. I'll bring it to a big tourney end of this month if i can find those scepters lol
what's defense grid good vs.? You already have vial. Do you need it?
SJ says:
Despotic Scepters are $1 rares
yes, havent you seen the most updated version? http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=47196
funeral charms in their place
i adjusted the proportions a bit, but ended up right back to -3,+3
Lil_Dragon says:
oh okay. And lastly, do you think you can give me a quick How-2-SB type of deal?
SJ says:
sure
wretch comes in vs. Salvagers, IGGYpop, Survival decks, Solidarity (flash of insight) if you're desperate, Goblins (chump blocker), and any aggro decks (with the Jittes) to up the creature count
Funeral Charm comes in vs. Solidarity, Landstill, and Goblins and small decks
and Angel Stompy for Mother of Runes
Plague comes in vs. goblins and tribal and Goblin Welder, Life, Angel Stompy maybe
Pithing Needle comes in vs. anything with troubelsome activated abilities AND combos (Salvagers)
Angel Stompy's Parallax Wave
Goblins
oh and what to take out
safely you can take up to 1 stylus and 1 infiltrator out if you NEED the room after taking out what I tell you below
4 duress 4 hymn 4 gilded drake 4 echoing truth are the cards that can come out
duress go out vs. goblins with echoing truth and gilded drake - hymn to tourach stays in
solidarity drakes and echoing truth come out
threshold 3 drake, 3 echoing truth come out
always remember that if in doubt, leave ONE in (with drake and echoing truth)
in case they accidentally drop an Angel and you'd be screwed if you boarded out all your Drakes
you transmute for em
and if you are able, leave 1 hymn to tourach in if you need to transmute for it
Lil_Dragon says:
5 mana, discard 2
that doesn't seem too hot
SJ says:
its over two turns
and its recurable with Stronghold
and its only in desperation
and you may actually draw the thing
and even then its not bad
Lil_Dragon says:
alright. awsome. I'll see if my local store has scepters... idk if they carry bad rares like that... I'll let you go eat
I'll post sometime when I have something relevant
SJ says:
okay good luck
eBay should sell 4x Scepters in BuyItNow auctions
if you cant find 4, get 2 and flip the Stylus/Scepter proportions
it wont exactly kill the deck
but you'll see why Scepter is better after playing with it
Lil_Dragon says:
yeah. Stylus lets me re-use guilded drake
SJ says:
wrong, Scepter lets you re-use the Drake... and it's GILDED.
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
A couple of things, one is that I love this deck, just looking at it my jaw dropped (I found you through magic-league and used the link to here). I plan to trade for it, but there's a problem, how did you guys find a shop near you that has legacy events?
Legacy events available to attend- now That is the greatest challenge of all.
Thx for the offer of cards, Isamaru. I am an old-timer though, and I have an obscenely large collection available to me.
Incidently, Isamaru, I built the thing for this past Friday night, but for some reason nobody needed a deck this week. That figures. I was trying out Kudzu's Bane of the Living tech for Dirt, which will likely occupy me for a couple of more weeks, as a sb card just doesn't see play as often and therefor needs more time to test.
But...
I do have it built and will be trying it out sometime soon.
Thanks Finn, I trusted you had all the cards, just wondered if you needed anything. I understand your want to test Dirt still, no rush here, any testing you can do is appreciated.
bb_bart, are you Lil_Dragon on MSN? Sadly, Legacy events are so scarce to find that I had to wait a year just for my store to retry it (on a non-prime-time night)!
I tested vs. ShinoTenshi's burn deck today and cannot win no matter how hard I try. I could only hope to sideboard chill or something, but there is no win in sight.
I tested with Twinkee for 2 games (UGw Threshold) and won the first game almost thanks to a Vial resolving and not being needled, but lost the second game to 2 Pithing Needles and a Mage naming all the right stuff miserably
Let me think about this... maybe I really SHOULD splash red or green to get artifact destruction (and splash Brand - in the sideboard). The 3 Plagues and 1 Jitte come out for 4 Brand, and some other stuff comes out for Artifact/Enchantment destruction... crap red can't hit Enchantments... hmmm maybe this plan really isn't that great.
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
No, I knew Gate to Phyrexia existed, just never thought it was good enough (and forgot about it), but now that you pointed out it costs 2, it may be a consideration... not exactly as a 1-of...( I don't know if I'd want to transmute for it)... I don't think Pithing Needle is worth it... even though I was just talking about the third color. Perhaps we should sacrifice the good synergy with Volrath's Stronghold by going to 3-3 with the Stylus and Scetpers instead of 4-2? What do you think?
Recoil costs 1 too much, Nev's Disk kills ME, Powder Keg is slow, kills me, and both can be needled further. As you say, none are perfect
I suppose Gate to Phyrexia has to be kept in mind, but for now I'm not running enough creatures to support it, and it's not worth the sideboard space, sadly. I was concerned with enchantments moreso... would Kami of Ancient Law / Ronom Unicorn be worth sideboarding. I could use 1x Scrubland main, and the point would be to Vial them out. Then again, there would be the Meddling Mage plan there as well... is any of that worth it?
Should I go down to 4 fetchlands or at most 6 (instead of the current 7) tonight? The seem to cause me a lot of pain and almost lost me a game last week.
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Well, I should think that Gilded Drake, sacrifice opponent's creature would be pretty disheartening for them. That said, I can't even remember the last time I actually used Gate to Phyrexia. The question should really be - is it really that big a deal? Do the Needles kill you or just annoy? Just a single one in the sb or even the main (I actually store items in the main sometimes when it is a tutorable 1-of and I have no room in the sideboard. It appears backwards but at times it makes sense.) seems like it is all it should take.
Have you faced Chalices yet? A couple of those could end you. And with the increasing popularity of Faeries (why is a mystery to me, it never seems to do well against me) it could be an issue. Just a thought.
Do you really need so many fetchlands with only 2 colors?
First, I want to make it clear that I have not tested this deck much at all.
Okay, this is the manabase I have been playing with. It just makes more sense to me and it helps vs. Threshold a little bit more.
5 Swamp
1 Island
7 Fetches (Why? b/c that's how many were in the M-L list)
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
I have been considering Peat Bog but I think the CitPT is just too much... So I've crossed it off my list.
I have been questioning Dimir Infultraitor. It's too slow of a tutor imo, and I have honestly never needed it except as a blocker. And contrary to my first thoughts, It's a bad blocker. Seems like maybe wretch should go in instead. This also means Jitte has to be increased in the MD, or cut. Personaly, Jitte has not been very amazing... Seems like a win-more card... But it does seems like needed removal vs. gobs. I was originally thinking hunted phantasms as another beater/blocker... but it's blue and Piledriver just goes through it.
Another option is to cut the black disuption for Blue counters. We already have 12 blue cards MD. So FoW can be added easily (might hurt with dark confidant). SJ suggested Daze. I think I'd play Mana Leak first though.
I think maybe Red needs to make an appearance. Brand seems solid with drake and Horror. That means we can cut a couple "Scepter-cards." idk... just a thought. It gives us pyroclasm in SB vs. Angel stompy and Gobs. Splashing red means we ptich the wastelands. We can get Shattering spree vs. Pithing Needles, null rods or w/e though. REB if needed. What do other colors give us?
The trouble I've had with the deck is consistancey. I know I suggested taking out tutors, but they're just so slow that it usually doesn't matter anymore. We should just play 6-8 Hunter Horrors... :rolleyes:. Basicly, I don't always have a face-beater.
And with the increasing popularity of Faeries (why is a mystery to me
People are testing it. It's a new deck. It's also pretty solid. It's faster than gobs (That's right, mono blue aggro is faster than Red. But Gobs has more card advantage.... ). I personaly a fan of the deck.
Anyways, I guess what my post comes down to is Dimir Infultraitor is questionable. And is there something we can replace Jitte With? What color splash options are there?
PS. Can anyone summerize the Tier 1 match-ups thus far? So we know where we need to work on?
EDIT: I think mathmaticly, I should -1 waste, +1 swamp to better ensure turn 2 hymn.
Sorry for the double post guys, but I think I may be on to something :rolleyes:.
Phyrexian Negator. You can use the scepter-cards to get rid of him yourself with damage on the stack if you don't want to sac stuff. But this means Dark Ritual is needed. This also means Vial would have to go... But this being our 4-8th beater, we no longer need Dimir Infultraitor. Also, with dark ritual, you get turn 1 Engineered plauge and Hymn + Duress, Horror + scepter, Confidant + Duress, etc plays.
I've also been experimenting with the land base a little. Also, 20 lands would be the right count if your not playing wastlands (which imo, i think you should.)
The addition of negator changes the deck alot. You lose alot of vial tricks. But I think it's worth a test. idk if negator is good enough to be in the MD though. And if he's in the SB, I'd rather have vial and cut him all togeather.
EDIT: Some possibilities, we putback the tutor and add lightning greaves.
Unearth seems like it has potential... though it doesn't seem to help vs. anything.
Wasteland + Ghost Quarter = good vs. thresh (2 basic islands)... ...but this isn't the right deck to put it in...
Oh and I saw hatching plans in the first post of this thread. Just wanted to state my opinion on it. It seems cool, but we already have confidant. Therefore it's uneeded.
You may be on to something, (Negator out of the SB may be good against the difficult UGW Thresh matchup) but don't get too excited yet. This deck is part combo, after all. And Infiltrator can fetch any of the components. And have you considered how Infiltrator reacts with Volrath's Stronghold to make for what amounts to a Diabolic Tutor every turn if you need it? I would think hard about the uses of Dimir Infiltrator before calling him the card to remove. Once VileHorror gets enough land out, it's pretty butch. That all goes away if you remove the enabler.
Yes, the deck is part combo. Horror often the part you tutor for. The other component is already run as a 10x of (4 Echoing truth, 6 Scepters.) So you don't tutor for that.
Volrath's stronghold + Dimir Infultraitor = 6 mana tutor if you wanted to use it every turn. Seems bad imo (but I haven't done that much testing). Anyways, with Phyrexian Negator, you shouldn't have as many lands anyways. You'll be sacing them.
But the big thing here is both horror + negator are big and have trample. That's some fast beats. I whiped up a deck:
-4 vial | +4 Dark ritual
-X Echoing truths | +X Withered Wretch (Optional)
-4 Infultrator | +4 Negator
-1 Jitte | +1 Wretch
And this change isn't difinitive. It's just an idea that seems like it's worth testing.
Ive got to backup on Finn here. SJ and I also talked a good deal about his deck and i also suggested replacing the "slow" tutoring effect of the infiltrator with something else, namely Grim Tutor.
Guess what? There arent more efficient ways to tutor for a card in legacy, unless you count in the one mana tutors, which dont offer the same flexibility.
You removed the thruths?! Im sorry, but those cards are actually keeping this deck standing versus some of the harder match-ups.
And you removed the vials? Thats kind of a hit to the head to the integrity of the deck. Surprise horror EOT is one of the best plays the deck has, since he can then go on and smash both tokens with one of the stylusses or scepters.
Negator i can understand, but with the format as it is, its a pretty lousy choice. Cheap fat is everywhere, dealing mucho damage to the negator and losing you creature and permanents fast.
I would say, test away, but i dont see many good things coming from it.
Waiting in anticipation.
Regardless if there are no other tutor options, a tutor still remains to be slow if it is indeed so. That's partly the reason why there are so few 2-card combo decks out there (that fair decsently).
I currently have 3 truths in. I have found them to be okay, but not always needed with 6x Scepters. I know you can bounce back your guilded drake, random creatures and stuff, but I don't see it's necessity as a 4x.
Dark Ritual + Vial never go togeather in the same deck. It's just alota dead cards. So to test negator, I have to cut the vials. Easy as that. But turn 1 Negator / Horror + scepter / Hymn + Duress doesn't seem worse than a suprise horror.
But yeah... this won't get anywhere unless results come up. But don't hold your breath. I'm still trying to find scepters to test at tournies... ...MWS...too noob infested. Of like the 10-15 matches I've played, I've play against maybe 3 net decks, and 1 competent person.
Edit: Well I've beat Affintiy and drew with Mono Green Stompy with the negators... ...pretty sure I lucked out vs. Stompy...
But the problem that I'm theorizing is that vs. Solidarity and Gobs, you'd be force to play negator defensivly. But that does mean you won't be able to tutor for hunted horror either... so idk... Negator only need to get 2 beats in. 1st time sacing a couple pernements, 2nd time Damage on stack, scepter. Horror usually does the rest. Or if you have 2 negators with scepter, they usually go all the way assuming the opponent doesn't have burn.
Also a couple more (bad) ideas for SB:
Flesh rever vs. Solidarity, maybe Thresh and other control decks)
Stench of Evil vs. Rifter... ...fairly specific SB slot though...
Diabolic Edict vs. Thresh, landstill (BTW, wastes helps vs. landstill.)
I haven't tested against a lot of match ups but I can imagine thresh being hard like it is for every deck (nearly) and Negator seems like it puts a LOT of pressure on. Bear in mind UGWr thresh can bolt him for huge card advantage, though.
As far as losing to burn goes, side in the same discard as you would for solidarity and theres a possibility of not being able to kill you because of it. Another thing is that burn is a rarely run deck so it's of minimal concern.
I probably overlooked some key points since im playing on MWS right now.
Okay, well, angel stompy is unwinable...
Even if you get 2nd turn Horror combo, they have StP and Parallax Wave.
Even if they don't draw that, they can still win by racing you with Sword of Fire + Ice on a Shadow creature (usually with Mother of Runes for protection). Only possible out I see is Massacre/Infest in SB... ...is Dystopia any good? Seems like you lose too much life... idk.
Vs. Red decks, you have to play negator less aggresivly (when you have scepter or too many lands). But it seems like there's more red decks now with the come-back of survival (and GUr Thresh, RB Beats/Sui, Gobs, etc.)
So yeah, idk if negator MD is gonna work out. But the deck does need another face-beater... The thing is with the darkrit, etc. The deck will become Mono Black Confidant/Sui/Pox b/c the combo peices of Vial Horror are inferior and dead cards individualy.
Fallen Omnipotent, I didn't say anything before because Finn and Viroid tried to knock the sense into you before I did, but I'm going to say read the past threads before you make such radical changes. I'll only defend Echoing Truth at the moment: It's RARELY used on the Gilded Drakes/Centaurs (and almost NEVER should be) - it is to bounce opposing permanents and enchantments, etc. to trade a card for tempo or remove a wrench from the machine (for example, Moat)
Angel Stompy's Swords to Plowshares give me enough time. Often its a somewhat okay bet to smash the horror instead of taking the 7 life to Stronghold it back. Parallax Wave - Duress, Hymn, Echoing Truth, but most of all Pithing Needle. Most builds aren't smart enough to realize 4 is the right number to run and end up running 2-3x. The big thing you are forgetting (I appreciate your help, but perhaps cut down on the definitive statments for a bit) is Gilded Drake. If they don't know about it and accel into an Exalted Angel, they lose. If they do know about it, they cant safely put out an Angel. Jitte is an extra kill spell for Jitte. Mother of Runes hurts, but it can be dealt with by [I did this one game, for example] Gilded Draking the Mother of Runes after it's played (no haste) and then use it as the game goes to protect your Horror from Swords to Plowshares. How is it unwinnable? ...This is one of my most tested matchups, as my friend plays a good Angel Stompy build.
And now for Tournament Report #5 (Real Life #4)
I got 3rd Place for the 3rd time... it's really starting to suck losing ONE game out of 3 to the point where I always am one short of 2nd place. I got only 1 pack (Dissension) this time. Apparently 3rd place's prize support sucks now, but 1st $25 and 2nd $10 still... I had 6 points just like 2nd place, but had 25% less win-ratio.
The deck I played was the same that the thread started with except I really wanted to try out the Funeral Charms. I got to the tournament and neither Frust nor Brett were there. No Goblins, No Landstill. Someone did play Threshold though, but I didn't get paired up. He apparently has seen my list on MagicLeague (he surprised me - didn't realize he knew it was me / checked there) so he knew almost my exact list. We tested after the tournament and I wasn't doing so great and probably would have lost as it was UGw Threshold (Swords to Plowshares hates me) with Meddling Mages, etc.
I drew ONE Duress all night. That's rediculous. Sorry ahead of time if the report is a bit cloudly, it's late and I sadly can't remember as many details as I normally can
I sort of wished I kept it 2 Jitte, 3 Funeral Charm, but knew that tonight was the night to test out the Funeral Charm...
Round 1 - Neil Something (again) - RWu IsochronScepter
This guy was really nice and we had some good conversations and pleasant games; he was a good sport.
Game 1: I get Hymn out a Wrath and 2 StP and a Lightning Helix. I set up (this means Vial & Stylus/Scepter) I drop a Horror and get him down to 3 before he puts Swords to Plowshares on a stick I draw Echoing Truth, then a Gilded Drake! He attacks with 2 Mishra's Factories, I bounce the Scepter, drake a Factory, he can't attack with the Factory for the rest of the game. I get another Horror and win.
Sideboarding: -4 Gilded Drake, -1 Jitte (suck vs StP/Wrath/Burn), -1 Stylus (drakes are out), -1 Polluted Delta (drew 8 land first game), +4 Pithing Needle, +3 Wretch
Game 2: I get an early Needle on Scepter, he disenchants it turn 2. I get set up, he puts Abeyance and Swords on sticks, then play a Wretch after he StPs an early Horror. I EOT put a Horror into play and it gets Swordsed of Course. I topdeck a Needle and lay it down. He later pointed out I could have named Mishra's Factory and attacked for the last 2, but instead I was stupid and named Scepter and let the game drag on a bit. I drew a Hymn to Tourach then accidentally cast it and he resolves it when he played Abeyance before (we were both stupid) someone pointed it out and we took it back. I cast it next turn and got the Firemane Angel I grabbed before (RFG with Wretch shortly after) and something else. He had another one and cast it when I was EOT-ing a Horror out. I drew an Echoing Truth (luck-sack) and bounce it for the win.
Round 2 - Aarok Parks (again) - UR Standstill/Fish Standstill, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic, Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Spiketail Hatchling, Fire//Ice, Lightning Bolt, Mishra's Factory, Aether Vial - let the games begin. He didn't know Cloud of Faeries was un-errated all night so he didnt really Vial it out (though he didn't even get a Vial out vs. me ever)...
Game 1: I draw a Duress in the opening hand - THESE ARE ACTUALLY IN THE DECK? Who would have thought! I Duress and take Fire//Ice over Lightning Bolt. He drops a Standstill, I take my third turn, drop a land, Transmute on that turn. He goes, accidentally breaks his Standstill with a Lavamancer. I'm a jerk and don't let him take it back. I get a Horror down with a Jitte and it got Echoing Truthed once. I still lose to a damage race by one turn My Echoing Truths sucked so bad, and I drew 3 vs
Sideboarding: -4 Gilded Drake, -4 Echoing Truth, -3 Duress, -4 Hymn to Tourach, +15 Entire Sideboard comes in. [4 Pithing Needle,
3 Withered Wretch, 3 Engineered Plague, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Funeral Charm.] Looking back, I probably should have left some of the discard in but I was stupid...
Game 2: I play around counterspells and trickiness and resolve a Jitte and a Wretch. He Ninjutsus Ninjas out for Cloud of Faeries, etc. I'm careful around his burn and I drop a Pithing Needle when he lays down a Seal of Removal and he says OK immediately. I name the Seal and he goes "I'll respond" - some spectators say too late and I'm glad Needle is so powerful :)... I equip Jitte to Wretch and attack, leaving the counters on. He attacks with a Mishra's Factory and the Ninja and I kill the Ninja before saying No Blockers. People were teasing him later for this (I don't see why) but he Ninjutsued back the Factory for another Ninja. I take 2, oh well. I eventually get a Horror out and keep the Jitte on Wretch. I feel like it's somewhat of a blur, but I won with lifegain...
Sideboarding: I left it the same, but should have put some of the discard back in probably. I had to Mulligan Game 2's first hand (no land, all board cards). Aaron spends a bunch of time shuffling because there were only 10 minutes left in the round and he was upset that I spent 3 minutes boarding in all 15 cards / took a long time.
Game 3: I feel bad that I forgot a lot, but it was somewhat the same as the last two. He plays a Mishra's Factory and says "Activate" and puts the one he just played forward and taps the other one. I hate to be an ass, but I have to, because it will actually matter this game. He tries to reason with me and agrees to it in the end. He attacks with the other stuff bringing me to 8. I attack back and we enter the final turns with 2 Jitte Counters on Wretch and a Horror (am I mixing up the games?) and him at 5 or so. He breaks a Standstill to play a Mogg Fanatic to try to get as much damage through as he can. I gain 2 life, gain 2 life, and I end up at 2 so he concedes since he can't win the race. The Mishra's Factory's 2-3 extra damage would have lost me the game.
Round 3 - Ryan Something - [I]Right-Off-the-Net[/I] PikulaDeadguy This guy isn't very nice and doesn't say much at all. At the end of the games he is still silent. Not very fun at all. I can usually handle Pikula quite well as the LD doesn't hurt, and the discard doesn't hurt TOO much unless they have tons of lucky hits and I draw crap for the rest of the game. The reason I knew it was right off the net Pikula was the maindeck Plagues (he boarded them out vs. me obviously) and no Cursed Scrolls.
Game 1: I win the roll (first one of the night) and Play Swamp, Scepter. He Dark Rituals into a Hyppie (how can it be THAT consistent - GEEZ) and takes everything in my hand but 2 Horrors, 1 Drake, 1 Infiltrator. Then he Verdicts me and I drop 1 Horror and the Infiltrator. I am so lucky to draw an Underground Sea I play the Drake and steal it away, smashing the Drake when he goes to attack. [He has to read Scepter AND Stylus (good feeling) and before the game was asking what it did to his friends.] Anyway, I am able to lay down the Horror the next turn after hitting him with Hypnotic Specter (grabbed a Plague... why couldn't it be something better).... I lay down a Horror and pass the turn. He vindicates the stupid Scepter (usually the wrong play, but it turned out he had two, so it was correct). He Vindicated my Horror the next turn and I was racing the centaur with a Dimir Infiltrator and a Hyppie. He attacks with a Dark Confidant and the Centaur, I block with the Infiltrator (best 2/1 blocker EVER) that was just sitting there (he made a big mistake :)). Later he puts out a plague naming Spirit for the Infiltrator (0/2 :() and then he's winning the race. I draw a Gilded Drake and Vial out a Drake when he attacks with the Centaur and the next turn he trades with it. He plays a Hyppie and trades with my stolen Hyppie. I draw Dark Confidant and start winning with that, but he StPs it. I transmute for another Dark Confidant and win with it.
Sideboarding: -4 Duress, -4 Hymn to Tourach (I figure Discard won't be that helpful here, probably wrong again), +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Withered Wretch, +1 Jitte... can't remember it exactly, but I think that was what I did. Pithing Needle came in, but only 3 because I only could think of a few targets or something...
Game 2: He goes first (winning can be a bad thing I guess...?) into the all-too-classic Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Hymn (WHY IS IT SO CONSISTENT!? :() he takes a Despotic Scepter over a Vial (right choice) and a Stylus. It's okay for him, though, as the Hymn hits the Vial and something else important. I draw a Vial (cool) and play it. The game goes on (you know how it goes, early rapage, late game "threat"). I'm winning with 2 Confidants for a little bit until he swords them away. I reveal a Needle and draw a Stylus one turn. I play the Stylus, I sit for about a minute thinking about whether to play the Needle or not. I wanted to name Nantuko Shade if I put it down, but ultimately decide to hold it in hand in case he drops a Nev's Disk (all too used to my friend's Suicide Black deck). Instead he Duresses the needle away next turn (I'm stupid). Then he drops a Jitte. I'm okay for a turn. I draw a Wretch and attack once. Then - who would have guessed it? - a Nantuko Shade comes out to hold the Jitte (where are my 2 copies or my 4 infilrators when I need them?). I block the first attack with the Wretch, and respond to combat damage by Despotic Scepter-ing the Wretch = No Jitte Counters. He calls the judge over... sigh... I'm right, moving along... I draw an Echoing Truth next turn (why isnt this Gilded Drake!?) and he picks up 3 land and then his face reads "oh... ehehe" and he puts them back. Then he attacks and asks OK? after each pump. I know that if I don't respond to the "last" pump, combat damage will be put on the stack and I'll lose the opporunity to do something about it before it deals damage... but since I saw him set aside 3 land, I know what he's doing and wait for the 3rd activation and bounce it. He replays it with the remaining 2. He hasn't even seen Echoing Truth before this so I don't know how he planned for it. He drops a second shade and I draw 2 land and a useless Stlus over the next 3 turns and die a horrible death because I didn't play the Pithing Needle naming Shade. Losing to the Jitte is degrading to this deck, but I suppose I would have lost anyway... I should have played that stupid Needle!
Sideboarding: I took out the Pithing Needles and Bounce and put in Engineered Plagues (thought they'd be better vs. more [stopping Shade from even hitting the table] and be somewhat better) and Funeral Charm.
Game 3: He simply has a good curve this time with no Ritual, but theres Duressing involved with TWO hymn to tourachs in a row afterwards. He plays a Dark Confidant afterwards and reveals land FOR THE NEXT THREE REVEALS bringing him out of land screw. Let me sum the game up... He lays down a Hypnotic Specter and of the 3 cards in my hand (Hunted Horror, Dimir Infiltrator, Funeral Charm) he grabs Hunted Horror. I don't realize how much that screwed me until I draw a Stylus (already had a Vial out) next turn. He drops TWO more Hypnotic Specters and I lose my hands and get beat in for 6 a turn. If I had known he'd hit Horror for sure / knew an answer was coming (or even if I was about to lose, I'd just pray for an answer (stylus/scepter/bounce)) then I'd have put the Horror into play before the discard trigger resolved.
Maybe I was too tired to realize that Plague was redundant with Funeral Charm and the card is just freaking horrible in this matchup... and for many matchups for that matter. I'd honestly just rather have Dark Ritual so I can power out a plague vs. Goblins, or classic discard / early plays vs. other decks (for example Duress + Dark Confidant, or Scepter + Horror). I thought that Funeral Charm's discard would be good, but you're just trading card for a card - and chosen discard means its their worst card anyway. And if you're doing it late game during their draw step [f they have no cards in hand] they're probably losing anyways (and I have seen barely any games with an opponant hellbent).
Quite dissapointing losing to that. Afterwards I played vs. UGw Threshold as described above and lost to Pithing Needle. Let me put it this way - I either need ways to deal with it and enchantments (sorry to keep saying this as I know it cant really be done), or Cabal Therapy.... but I am DEFINITELY now going to go 3x Stylus 3x Scepter merely because of this. It's worth not being able to get full use of Volrath's Stronghold to not lose as badly to opposing Pithing Needles. I think Cabal Therapy and/or Withered Wretch may need to come into the maindeck... [I]I seem to board Wretch&Jitte in almost every game!
[/I]Here are the closing DeckThoughts
Massacre
Infest
Propaganda
Shield Sphere
Daze
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Mana Breach (seriously might have helped today)
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I've been thinking and I might have an answer to solidarity, it could give you a little protection against thresh and will give you a pretty big edge on burn aswell. There is only one problem it costs 3 (I haven't playtested this deck but 3 mana doesnt seem to hard to reach looking at your base) mana but it seems a card worth playtesting. Well here it is In the Eye of Chaos I know its a legends card but I looked around and found them in VF condition for 8 dollars a pop. It seems like it would hose a few popular decks, especially solidarity and burn, so they might be worth a try. The deck looks fun but I just don't have time to playtest more then one deck right now. Wish I could be of more help.
From what i can see here are the pros and cons
Pros:
- not to hard to get out with your discard
- makes FOW useless in any deck that runs it
- shuts down solidarity or atleast slows them down due to them having to answer the card to go off
- considerably slows down burns clock
- hurts and deck with many instants, not just countermagic
- another card in your deck people will have to read when you play it
- wont hurt you much, you only run echoing truth MD and Funeral Charm SB both of which I dont see being in the deck at the same time as this card
Cons:
- raises mana curve
- possibly only a temporary solution, it will be bounce, you will have to win before they find a fix
- not sure if its better/more applicable then your current solution
im sure there are more cons but im at work and in a rush. Hope this card helps.
Okay, so echoing truth is your random answer to random pernements. Still doesn't make sense to me to play it as a 4x of. I moved wastes down to 1. 3 non-black producers is idealisitic for turn 2 hymn (though flores believes 4 is the right number). I've found room for 2 MD wretched and (for now) put infest in my SB. I've given up on negator MD. I'm currently trying mana leak + FoW > discard. Problem with mana leak is it's a 2cc Card and so its your whole deck pretty much. So unless you get vial, it's hard to play imo.
As for angel stompy, as long as they are a competent player and don't attack with mothers, they should win. It's easily not a good match-up. At least 65-35 in thier favor. They have more threats AND answer than you. Grabbing angel isn't GG b/c they still have answer for it. Furthermore, most of Vial Horror's answers are only temporary. Granted saying it's unwinable is an exadgeration (sp?) but saying it can win is like saying Rifter can beat combo (okay, not even close to that bad, but it's still very bad.)
First I'll address FallenOmnipotent before I rejoice over z38gm's findings
Glad you gave up on Negators, but do tell me how Leak+FoW works out. Hopefully Confidant doesn't reveal FoW too often, the chances are somewhat slim... but you lose the security that you can keep a Confidant out at 3 life and not lose - in this deck, you can easily Scepter away your Confidants end of turn, however. As for Angel Stompy, it seems like I should definitely lose, and I often do, but I'm not THAT worried about that matchup. I've always hated %/% matchup analysis - they are NEVER accurate and are always made up...
z38gm, that's genius! At least on paper, it looks beautiful (but I'll have to test it of course). You've listed the pros and the cons wonderfully and even looked up how much it goes for (since its Legends)... This card would be perfect if it costed 2, but is still amazing at 2U. It's a piece that helps vs. Solidarity and Burn as you said, and Threshold too. I like it a lot!
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
Sure... but the only testing I'v done is on MWS/Apprentice.
Angel Stompy:
5 different players. 4 played Mother MD. In total, I've played about 9 matches. I've won 2 games and 0 matches with Isamaru's Funeral Charm SB build. One of the games I won was just by racing with turn 3+4 hunted horrors. (Duress, Scepter, Scepter, Horror, Horror.) I guess he never drew StP and I Duressed away 1 Wave. The other game, He was just stuck on 1 land for like 6 turns. He got out 2 mothers, a Hound, and a Lions. That just gave me enough time to get out a horror and beat face. I ended up playing like 2 Duresses and 3 hymns before that I think. I didn't hit land, he just got land screwed. The rest just seemed like I couldn't do anything... I played a couple of matches with Isamaru too. I don't think Angel stompy ever lost.
I've played 2 matches vs. BW Discard (the deck pox evolved into. Basicly BW Confidant with The Rack)
Lost 0-4. He has StP, Vindicate, and Diabolic edicts in SB. He matches my duresses + hymns but in addition has the possibility of turn 1 Hyppie. He matches my draw with confidants. I have no answer to The Rack except for Echoing truth, confidant, and holding cards. E. Truthing Rack seems like a waste. I'd rather hit hyppie. Confidant and holding cards are hardly answers cause they just rip out cards with StP. idk... his deck just seems better I guess.
I've won vs. a bunch of random decks like Zoo (he got land flooded), BR Sligh (not sui), and other random decks.
That's somewhat the strategy, but I've never actually thought of the Centaurs. I only think of it as a temporary payment of life. The main point is you never play a Horror unless you're paying 0 or 3 life for it.
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Is that worth 2 cards? Or is Plague just much better with not giving card disadvantage? My strategy vs. Goblins is Funeral Charms to surive long enough to cast a plague turn 3. (And Funeral Charms also have utility to come in vs. Control decks as added discard)
Viroid also slapped me and pointed out Hydroblast or BEB could be another Goblin board solution... but I'm thinking what's most versatile while still being good enough... and I think Funeral Charm + Plague is better than going strong anti-goblins as they work on a lot of other things as well.
4 Pithing Needle
3 Withered Wretch (4?)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (1?)
3 Funeral Charm (4?)
3 Engineered Plague (Sickening Dreams?, Sickening Shoal?, Infest?)
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btw, i love this deck, and ill try to build it stupid expensive blue duals:angry:
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Shoal stays out, but I'll still ponder about Sickening Dreams before Monday. Mana Maze stays out in my meta game, but in larger ones it comes back in.
I just had a conversation with someone on MSN... I gave them a few explanations and a sideboarding synopsis... kinda
hey, who's this?
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm just a magic player interested in your Vial Horror deck
SJ says:
oh, hey
how are you
are you from MTGSalvation?
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm everywhere
I haven't posted yet. I've been trying to test it on MWS... but yeah... MWS...
I've played maybe 3 matches vs. good decks. But I question the players
SJ says:
did you win?
Lil_Dragon says:
Yeah
SJ says:
let me play you with it, maybe you'll see something you didn't before
Lil_Dragon says:
Well I have to go soon
SJ says:
okay
i have to eat dinner i guess
so IM me when you're available if you wan't
Lil_Dragon says:
anyways, first question, why 4 Despotic Scepter?
why not 3 and 3?
SJ says:
good question
Despotic Scepter is more important
to the deck
Lil_Dragon says:
less vunerable to Pithing needle
SJ says:
the way it is built
Volrath's Stronghold
is the SOLE reason to run 4+2
sadly it has to be done
ive never had a scepter/staff needled though
they hit vial first - always
and if they don't, then I can work around it
draw into bounce, transmute, find a stylus, etc.
Lil_Dragon says:
what is scepter + stronghold good against?
SJ says:
Recursion
lets say you've facing control
Lil_Dragon says:
guilded drake
SJ says:
they swords your Horror
you have the option (though I usually dont) to not gain 7
put horror in yard
and put it back on top
to replay
countering a swords
with Drake, its good vs. combos with creatures, important creatures, reanimator, large creatures, or large and somewhat slower aggro
steal a creature every turn
Lil_Dragon says:
another question. Do you ever hardcast Infiltrator?
I've done it a couple times... b/c i have no threats and I had a jitte
and it seems like a good blocker vs. gobs
SJ says:
yes hard casted a lot
cast Jitte, EOT infiltrator
equip, swing
its a horrible blocker vs. goblins, sadly
Pro Blue on the stupid Piledrivers
it can block lacky if you go first though
Lil_Dragon says:
and also, this is the manabase I've been playing:
-1 Watery grave, -2 Tainted Isle. -1 Swamp. +1 Island, +3 wasteland
it makes the deck less vunerable to Wasteland. And I don't see the need for so much blue production.
all your blu espells are single blue.
makes your thresh matchup a little better too b/c you can waste their stuff.
SJ says:
haha getting them closer to threshold?
this deck can definitely support wasteland, I just havent resorted back to it in a while
Lil_Dragon says:
threshold has a horrible manabase
SJ says:
true
all the spells are a single blue
and there are only 3
spells
and 2 can be vialed out
running 1 island is a waste of your time
wasteland does not hurt the deck, and not being able to turn 2 hymn ruins your life
and watery grave is good to fetch EOT
Lil_Dragon says:
I've never had that problem though
SJ says:
ORLY?
Lil_Dragon says:
but i see what your saying
and keep in mind, I've only played like ~7 matches
SJ says:
so -1 swamp, -2 tainted isle, +3 wasteland is something I'd consider trying out
thats good that you're testing it out
sign up for MTGSalvation (register) please
and post your results on the thread
I'd appreciate it
Lil_Dragon says:
I'm registured. I just haven't done any good testing yet. I'll bring it to a big tourney end of this month if i can find those scepters lol
what's defense grid good vs.? You already have vial. Do you need it?
SJ says:
Despotic Scepters are $1 rares
yes, havent you seen the most updated version?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=47196
funeral charms in their place
i adjusted the proportions a bit, but ended up right back to -3,+3
Lil_Dragon says:
oh okay. And lastly, do you think you can give me a quick How-2-SB type of deal?
SJ says:
sure
wretch comes in vs. Salvagers, IGGYpop, Survival decks, Solidarity (flash of insight) if you're desperate, Goblins (chump blocker), and any aggro decks (with the Jittes) to up the creature count
Funeral Charm comes in vs. Solidarity, Landstill, and Goblins and small decks
and Angel Stompy for Mother of Runes
Plague comes in vs. goblins and tribal and Goblin Welder, Life, Angel Stompy maybe
Pithing Needle comes in vs. anything with troubelsome activated abilities AND combos (Salvagers)
Angel Stompy's Parallax Wave
Goblins
oh and what to take out
safely you can take up to 1 stylus and 1 infiltrator out if you NEED the room after taking out what I tell you below
4 duress 4 hymn 4 gilded drake 4 echoing truth are the cards that can come out
duress go out vs. goblins with echoing truth and gilded drake - hymn to tourach stays in
solidarity drakes and echoing truth come out
threshold 3 drake, 3 echoing truth come out
always remember that if in doubt, leave ONE in (with drake and echoing truth)
in case they accidentally drop an Angel and you'd be screwed if you boarded out all your Drakes
you transmute for em
and if you are able, leave 1 hymn to tourach in if you need to transmute for it
Lil_Dragon says:
5 mana, discard 2
that doesn't seem too hot
SJ says:
its over two turns
and its recurable with Stronghold
and its only in desperation
and you may actually draw the thing
and even then its not bad
Lil_Dragon says:
alright. awsome. I'll see if my local store has scepters... idk if they carry bad rares like that... I'll let you go eat
I'll post sometime when I have something relevant
SJ says:
okay good luck
eBay should sell 4x Scepters in BuyItNow auctions
if you cant find 4, get 2 and flip the Stylus/Scepter proportions
it wont exactly kill the deck
but you'll see why Scepter is better after playing with it
Lil_Dragon says:
yeah. Stylus lets me re-use guilded drake
SJ says:
wrong, Scepter lets you re-use the Drake... and it's GILDED.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Thx for the offer of cards, Isamaru. I am an old-timer though, and I have an obscenely large collection available to me.
Incidently, Isamaru, I built the thing for this past Friday night, but for some reason nobody needed a deck this week. That figures. I was trying out Kudzu's Bane of the Living tech for Dirt, which will likely occupy me for a couple of more weeks, as a sb card just doesn't see play as often and therefor needs more time to test.
But...
I do have it built and will be trying it out sometime soon.
bb_bart, are you Lil_Dragon on MSN? Sadly, Legacy events are so scarce to find that I had to wait a year just for my store to retry it (on a non-prime-time night)!
I tested vs. ShinoTenshi's burn deck today and cannot win no matter how hard I try. I could only hope to sideboard chill or something, but there is no win in sight.
I tested with Twinkee for 2 games (UGw Threshold) and won the first game almost thanks to a Vial resolving and not being needled, but lost the second game to 2 Pithing Needles and a Mage naming all the right stuff miserably
Let me think about this... maybe I really SHOULD splash red or green to get artifact destruction (and splash Brand - in the sideboard). The 3 Plagues and 1 Jitte come out for 4 Brand, and some other stuff comes out for Artifact/Enchantment destruction... crap red can't hit Enchantments... hmmm maybe this plan really isn't that great.
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Seriously, though. Do you ever have creatures to spare for sacrifice? If so, this works rather well, and it costs 2.
If not, these may suffice in a pinch - Recoil, Nevinyrral's Disk, Powder Keg. Of course, none are perfect.
I would estimate that a 3rd color is a mistake at this point.
Recoil costs 1 too much, Nev's Disk kills ME, Powder Keg is slow, kills me, and both can be needled further. As you say, none are perfect
I suppose Gate to Phyrexia has to be kept in mind, but for now I'm not running enough creatures to support it, and it's not worth the sideboard space, sadly. I was concerned with enchantments moreso... would Kami of Ancient Law / Ronom Unicorn be worth sideboarding. I could use 1x Scrubland main, and the point would be to Vial them out. Then again, there would be the Meddling Mage plan there as well... is any of that worth it?
Should I go down to 4 fetchlands or at most 6 (instead of the current 7) tonight? The seem to cause me a lot of pain and almost lost me a game last week.
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Have you faced Chalices yet? A couple of those could end you. And with the increasing popularity of Faeries (why is a mystery to me, it never seems to do well against me) it could be an issue. Just a thought.
Do you really need so many fetchlands with only 2 colors?
First, I want to make it clear that I have not tested this deck much at all.
Okay, this is the manabase I have been playing with. It just makes more sense to me and it helps vs. Threshold a little bit more.
5 Swamp
1 Island
7 Fetches (Why? b/c that's how many were in the M-L list)
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
I have been considering Peat Bog but I think the CitPT is just too much... So I've crossed it off my list.
I have been questioning Dimir Infultraitor. It's too slow of a tutor imo, and I have honestly never needed it except as a blocker. And contrary to my first thoughts, It's a bad blocker. Seems like maybe wretch should go in instead. This also means Jitte has to be increased in the MD, or cut. Personaly, Jitte has not been very amazing... Seems like a win-more card... But it does seems like needed removal vs. gobs. I was originally thinking hunted phantasms as another beater/blocker... but it's blue and Piledriver just goes through it.
Another option is to cut the black disuption for Blue counters. We already have 12 blue cards MD. So FoW can be added easily (might hurt with dark confidant). SJ suggested Daze. I think I'd play Mana Leak first though.
I think maybe Red needs to make an appearance. Brand seems solid with drake and Horror. That means we can cut a couple "Scepter-cards." idk... just a thought. It gives us pyroclasm in SB vs. Angel stompy and Gobs. Splashing red means we ptich the wastelands. We can get Shattering spree vs. Pithing Needles, null rods or w/e though. REB if needed. What do other colors give us?
The trouble I've had with the deck is consistancey. I know I suggested taking out tutors, but they're just so slow that it usually doesn't matter anymore. We should just play 6-8 Hunter Horrors... :rolleyes:. Basicly, I don't always have a face-beater.
People are testing it. It's a new deck. It's also pretty solid. It's faster than gobs (That's right, mono blue aggro is faster than Red. But Gobs has more card advantage.... ). I personaly a fan of the deck.
Anyways, I guess what my post comes down to is Dimir Infultraitor is questionable. And is there something we can replace Jitte With? What color splash options are there?
PS. Can anyone summerize the Tier 1 match-ups thus far? So we know where we need to work on?
EDIT: I think mathmaticly, I should -1 waste, +1 swamp to better ensure turn 2 hymn.
Phyrexian Negator. You can use the scepter-cards to get rid of him yourself with damage on the stack if you don't want to sac stuff. But this means Dark Ritual is needed. This also means Vial would have to go... But this being our 4-8th beater, we no longer need Dimir Infultraitor. Also, with dark ritual, you get turn 1 Engineered plauge and Hymn + Duress, Horror + scepter, Confidant + Duress, etc plays.
I've also been experimenting with the land base a little. Also, 20 lands would be the right count if your not playing wastlands (which imo, i think you should.)
The addition of negator changes the deck alot. You lose alot of vial tricks. But I think it's worth a test. idk if negator is good enough to be in the MD though. And if he's in the SB, I'd rather have vial and cut him all togeather.
EDIT: Some possibilities, we putback the tutor and add lightning greaves.
Unearth seems like it has potential... though it doesn't seem to help vs. anything.
Wasteland + Ghost Quarter = good vs. thresh (2 basic islands)... ...but this isn't the right deck to put it in...
Oh and I saw hatching plans in the first post of this thread. Just wanted to state my opinion on it. It seems cool, but we already have confidant. Therefore it's uneeded.
Volrath's stronghold + Dimir Infultraitor = 6 mana tutor if you wanted to use it every turn. Seems bad imo (but I haven't done that much testing). Anyways, with Phyrexian Negator, you shouldn't have as many lands anyways. You'll be sacing them.
But the big thing here is both horror + negator are big and have trample. That's some fast beats. I whiped up a deck:
-4 vial | +4 Dark ritual
-X Echoing truths | +X Withered Wretch (Optional)
-4 Infultrator | +4 Negator
-1 Jitte | +1 Wretch
And this change isn't difinitive. It's just an idea that seems like it's worth testing.
Guess what? There arent more efficient ways to tutor for a card in legacy, unless you count in the one mana tutors, which dont offer the same flexibility.
You removed the thruths?! Im sorry, but those cards are actually keeping this deck standing versus some of the harder match-ups.
And you removed the vials? Thats kind of a hit to the head to the integrity of the deck. Surprise horror EOT is one of the best plays the deck has, since he can then go on and smash both tokens with one of the stylusses or scepters.
Negator i can understand, but with the format as it is, its a pretty lousy choice. Cheap fat is everywhere, dealing mucho damage to the negator and losing you creature and permanents fast.
I would say, test away, but i dont see many good things coming from it.
Waiting in anticipation.
I currently have 3 truths in. I have found them to be okay, but not always needed with 6x Scepters. I know you can bounce back your guilded drake, random creatures and stuff, but I don't see it's necessity as a 4x.
Dark Ritual + Vial never go togeather in the same deck. It's just alota dead cards. So to test negator, I have to cut the vials. Easy as that. But turn 1 Negator / Horror + scepter / Hymn + Duress doesn't seem worse than a suprise horror.
But yeah... this won't get anywhere unless results come up. But don't hold your breath. I'm still trying to find scepters to test at tournies... ...MWS...too noob infested. Of like the 10-15 matches I've played, I've play against maybe 3 net decks, and 1 competent person.
Edit: Well I've beat Affintiy and drew with Mono Green Stompy with the negators... ...pretty sure I lucked out vs. Stompy...
But the problem that I'm theorizing is that vs. Solidarity and Gobs, you'd be force to play negator defensivly. But that does mean you won't be able to tutor for hunted horror either... so idk... Negator only need to get 2 beats in. 1st time sacing a couple pernements, 2nd time Damage on stack, scepter. Horror usually does the rest. Or if you have 2 negators with scepter, they usually go all the way assuming the opponent doesn't have burn.
Also a couple more (bad) ideas for SB:
Flesh rever vs. Solidarity, maybe Thresh and other control decks)
Stench of Evil vs. Rifter... ...fairly specific SB slot though...
Diabolic Edict vs. Thresh, landstill (BTW, wastes helps vs. landstill.)
I haven't tested against a lot of match ups but I can imagine thresh being hard like it is for every deck (nearly) and Negator seems like it puts a LOT of pressure on. Bear in mind UGWr thresh can bolt him for huge card advantage, though.
As far as losing to burn goes, side in the same discard as you would for solidarity and theres a possibility of not being able to kill you because of it. Another thing is that burn is a rarely run deck so it's of minimal concern.
I probably overlooked some key points since im playing on MWS right now.
Even if you get 2nd turn Horror combo, they have StP and Parallax Wave.
Even if they don't draw that, they can still win by racing you with Sword of Fire + Ice on a Shadow creature (usually with Mother of Runes for protection). Only possible out I see is Massacre/Infest in SB... ...is Dystopia any good? Seems like you lose too much life... idk.
Vs. Red decks, you have to play negator less aggresivly (when you have scepter or too many lands). But it seems like there's more red decks now with the come-back of survival (and GUr Thresh, RB Beats/Sui, Gobs, etc.)
So yeah, idk if negator MD is gonna work out. But the deck does need another face-beater... The thing is with the darkrit, etc. The deck will become Mono Black Confidant/Sui/Pox b/c the combo peices of Vial Horror are inferior and dead cards individualy.
Angel Stompy's Swords to Plowshares give me enough time. Often its a somewhat okay bet to smash the horror instead of taking the 7 life to Stronghold it back. Parallax Wave - Duress, Hymn, Echoing Truth, but most of all Pithing Needle. Most builds aren't smart enough to realize 4 is the right number to run and end up running 2-3x. The big thing you are forgetting (I appreciate your help, but perhaps cut down on the definitive statments for a bit) is Gilded Drake. If they don't know about it and accel into an Exalted Angel, they lose. If they do know about it, they cant safely put out an Angel. Jitte is an extra kill spell for Jitte. Mother of Runes hurts, but it can be dealt with by [I did this one game, for example] Gilded Draking the Mother of Runes after it's played (no haste) and then use it as the game goes to protect your Horror from Swords to Plowshares. How is it unwinnable? ...This is one of my most tested matchups, as my friend plays a good Angel Stompy build.
And now for Tournament Report #5 (Real Life #4)
I got 3rd Place for the 3rd time... it's really starting to suck losing ONE game out of 3 to the point where I always am one short of 2nd place. I got only 1 pack (Dissension) this time. Apparently 3rd place's prize support sucks now, but 1st $25 and 2nd $10 still... I had 6 points just like 2nd place, but had 25% less win-ratio.
The deck I played was the same that the thread started with except I really wanted to try out the Funeral Charms. I got to the tournament and neither Frust nor Brett were there. No Goblins, No Landstill. Someone did play Threshold though, but I didn't get paired up. He apparently has seen my list on MagicLeague (he surprised me - didn't realize he knew it was me / checked there) so he knew almost my exact list. We tested after the tournament and I wasn't doing so great and probably would have lost as it was UGw Threshold (Swords to Plowshares hates me) with Meddling Mages, etc.
I drew ONE Duress all night. That's rediculous. Sorry ahead of time if the report is a bit cloudly, it's late and I sadly can't remember as many details as I normally can
4 Gilded Drake
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Echoing Truth
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
4 Despotic Scepter
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
6 Swamp
2 Tainted Isle
4 Pithing Needle
3 Withered Wretch
3 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Funeral Charm
Round 1 - Neil Something (again) - RWu IsochronScepter
This guy was really nice and we had some good conversations and pleasant games; he was a good sport.
Game 1: I get Hymn out a Wrath and 2 StP and a Lightning Helix. I set up (this means Vial & Stylus/Scepter) I drop a Horror and get him down to 3 before he puts Swords to Plowshares on a stick I draw Echoing Truth, then a Gilded Drake! He attacks with 2 Mishra's Factories, I bounce the Scepter, drake a Factory, he can't attack with the Factory for the rest of the game. I get another Horror and win.
Sideboarding: -4 Gilded Drake, -1 Jitte (suck vs StP/Wrath/Burn), -1 Stylus (drakes are out), -1 Polluted Delta (drew 8 land first game), +4 Pithing Needle, +3 Wretch
Game 2: I get an early Needle on Scepter, he disenchants it turn 2. I get set up, he puts Abeyance and Swords on sticks, then play a Wretch after he StPs an early Horror. I EOT put a Horror into play and it gets Swordsed of Course. I topdeck a Needle and lay it down. He later pointed out I could have named Mishra's Factory and attacked for the last 2, but instead I was stupid and named Scepter and let the game drag on a bit. I drew a Hymn to Tourach then accidentally cast it and he resolves it when he played Abeyance before (we were both stupid) someone pointed it out and we took it back. I cast it next turn and got the Firemane Angel I grabbed before (RFG with Wretch shortly after) and something else. He had another one and cast it when I was EOT-ing a Horror out. I drew an Echoing Truth (luck-sack) and bounce it for the win.
Round 2 - Aarok Parks (again) - UR Standstill/Fish
Standstill, Grim Lavamancer, Mogg Fanatic, Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of the Deep Hours, Spiketail Hatchling, Fire//Ice, Lightning Bolt, Mishra's Factory, Aether Vial - let the games begin. He didn't know Cloud of Faeries was un-errated all night so he didnt really Vial it out (though he didn't even get a Vial out vs. me ever)...
Game 1: I draw a Duress in the opening hand - THESE ARE ACTUALLY IN THE DECK? Who would have thought! I Duress and take Fire//Ice over Lightning Bolt. He drops a Standstill, I take my third turn, drop a land, Transmute on that turn. He goes, accidentally breaks his Standstill with a Lavamancer. I'm a jerk and don't let him take it back. I get a Horror down with a Jitte and it got Echoing Truthed once. I still lose to a damage race by one turn My Echoing Truths sucked so bad, and I drew 3 vs
Sideboarding: -4 Gilded Drake, -4 Echoing Truth, -3 Duress, -4 Hymn to Tourach, +15 Entire Sideboard comes in. [4 Pithing Needle,
3 Withered Wretch, 3 Engineered Plague, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 4 Funeral Charm.] Looking back, I probably should have left some of the discard in but I was stupid...
Game 2: I play around counterspells and trickiness and resolve a Jitte and a Wretch. He Ninjutsus Ninjas out for Cloud of Faeries, etc. I'm careful around his burn and I drop a Pithing Needle when he lays down a Seal of Removal and he says OK immediately. I name the Seal and he goes "I'll respond" - some spectators say too late and I'm glad Needle is so powerful :)... I equip Jitte to Wretch and attack, leaving the counters on. He attacks with a Mishra's Factory and the Ninja and I kill the Ninja before saying No Blockers. People were teasing him later for this (I don't see why) but he Ninjutsued back the Factory for another Ninja. I take 2, oh well. I eventually get a Horror out and keep the Jitte on Wretch. I feel like it's somewhat of a blur, but I won with lifegain...
Sideboarding: I left it the same, but should have put some of the discard back in probably. I had to Mulligan Game 2's first hand (no land, all board cards). Aaron spends a bunch of time shuffling because there were only 10 minutes left in the round and he was upset that I spent 3 minutes boarding in all 15 cards / took a long time.
Game 3: I feel bad that I forgot a lot, but it was somewhat the same as the last two. He plays a Mishra's Factory and says "Activate" and puts the one he just played forward and taps the other one. I hate to be an ass, but I have to, because it will actually matter this game. He tries to reason with me and agrees to it in the end. He attacks with the other stuff bringing me to 8. I attack back and we enter the final turns with 2 Jitte Counters on Wretch and a Horror (am I mixing up the games?) and him at 5 or so. He breaks a Standstill to play a Mogg Fanatic to try to get as much damage through as he can. I gain 2 life, gain 2 life, and I end up at 2 so he concedes since he can't win the race. The Mishra's Factory's 2-3 extra damage would have lost me the game.
Round 3 - Ryan Something - [I]Right-Off-the-Net[/I] PikulaDeadguy
This guy isn't very nice and doesn't say much at all. At the end of the games he is still silent. Not very fun at all. I can usually handle Pikula quite well as the LD doesn't hurt, and the discard doesn't hurt TOO much unless they have tons of lucky hits and I draw crap for the rest of the game. The reason I knew it was right off the net Pikula was the maindeck Plagues (he boarded them out vs. me obviously) and no Cursed Scrolls.
Game 1: I win the roll (first one of the night) and Play Swamp, Scepter. He Dark Rituals into a Hyppie (how can it be THAT consistent - GEEZ) and takes everything in my hand but 2 Horrors, 1 Drake, 1 Infiltrator. Then he Verdicts me and I drop 1 Horror and the Infiltrator. I am so lucky to draw an Underground Sea I play the Drake and steal it away, smashing the Drake when he goes to attack. [He has to read Scepter AND Stylus (good feeling) and before the game was asking what it did to his friends.] Anyway, I am able to lay down the Horror the next turn after hitting him with Hypnotic Specter (grabbed a Plague... why couldn't it be something better).... I lay down a Horror and pass the turn. He vindicates the stupid Scepter (usually the wrong play, but it turned out he had two, so it was correct). He Vindicated my Horror the next turn and I was racing the centaur with a Dimir Infiltrator and a Hyppie. He attacks with a Dark Confidant and the Centaur, I block with the Infiltrator (best 2/1 blocker EVER) that was just sitting there (he made a big mistake :)). Later he puts out a plague naming Spirit for the Infiltrator (0/2 :() and then he's winning the race. I draw a Gilded Drake and Vial out a Drake when he attacks with the Centaur and the next turn he trades with it. He plays a Hyppie and trades with my stolen Hyppie. I draw Dark Confidant and start winning with that, but he StPs it. I transmute for another Dark Confidant and win with it.
Sideboarding: -4 Duress, -4 Hymn to Tourach (I figure Discard won't be that helpful here, probably wrong again), +3 Pithing Needle, +3 Withered Wretch, +1 Jitte... can't remember it exactly, but I think that was what I did. Pithing Needle came in, but only 3 because I only could think of a few targets or something...
Game 2: He goes first (winning can be a bad thing I guess...?) into the all-too-classic Swamp, Ritual, Duress, Hymn (WHY IS IT SO CONSISTENT!? :() he takes a Despotic Scepter over a Vial (right choice) and a Stylus. It's okay for him, though, as the Hymn hits the Vial and something else important. I draw a Vial (cool) and play it. The game goes on (you know how it goes, early rapage, late game "threat"). I'm winning with 2 Confidants for a little bit until he swords them away. I reveal a Needle and draw a Stylus one turn. I play the Stylus, I sit for about a minute thinking about whether to play the Needle or not. I wanted to name Nantuko Shade if I put it down, but ultimately decide to hold it in hand in case he drops a Nev's Disk (all too used to my friend's Suicide Black deck). Instead he Duresses the needle away next turn (I'm stupid). Then he drops a Jitte. I'm okay for a turn. I draw a Wretch and attack once. Then - who would have guessed it? - a Nantuko Shade comes out to hold the Jitte (where are my 2 copies or my 4 infilrators when I need them?). I block the first attack with the Wretch, and respond to combat damage by Despotic Scepter-ing the Wretch = No Jitte Counters. He calls the judge over... sigh... I'm right, moving along... I draw an Echoing Truth next turn (why isnt this Gilded Drake!?) and he picks up 3 land and then his face reads "oh... ehehe" and he puts them back. Then he attacks and asks OK? after each pump. I know that if I don't respond to the "last" pump, combat damage will be put on the stack and I'll lose the opporunity to do something about it before it deals damage... but since I saw him set aside 3 land, I know what he's doing and wait for the 3rd activation and bounce it. He replays it with the remaining 2. He hasn't even seen Echoing Truth before this so I don't know how he planned for it. He drops a second shade and I draw 2 land and a useless Stlus over the next 3 turns and die a horrible death because I didn't play the Pithing Needle naming Shade. Losing to the Jitte is degrading to this deck, but I suppose I would have lost anyway... I should have played that stupid Needle!
Sideboarding: I took out the Pithing Needles and Bounce and put in Engineered Plagues (thought they'd be better vs. more [stopping Shade from even hitting the table] and be somewhat better) and Funeral Charm.
Game 3: He simply has a good curve this time with no Ritual, but theres Duressing involved with TWO hymn to tourachs in a row afterwards. He plays a Dark Confidant afterwards and reveals land FOR THE NEXT THREE REVEALS bringing him out of land screw. Let me sum the game up... He lays down a Hypnotic Specter and of the 3 cards in my hand (Hunted Horror, Dimir Infiltrator, Funeral Charm) he grabs Hunted Horror. I don't realize how much that screwed me until I draw a Stylus (already had a Vial out) next turn. He drops TWO more Hypnotic Specters and I lose my hands and get beat in for 6 a turn. If I had known he'd hit Horror for sure / knew an answer was coming (or even if I was about to lose, I'd just pray for an answer (stylus/scepter/bounce)) then I'd have put the Horror into play before the discard trigger resolved.
Maybe I was too tired to realize that Plague was redundant with Funeral Charm and the card is just freaking horrible in this matchup... and for many matchups for that matter. I'd honestly just rather have Dark Ritual so I can power out a plague vs. Goblins, or classic discard / early plays vs. other decks (for example Duress + Dark Confidant, or Scepter + Horror). I thought that Funeral Charm's discard would be good, but you're just trading card for a card - and chosen discard means its their worst card anyway. And if you're doing it late game during their draw step [f they have no cards in hand] they're probably losing anyways (and I have seen barely any games with an opponant hellbent).
Quite dissapointing losing to that. Afterwards I played vs. UGw Threshold as described above and lost to Pithing Needle. Let me put it this way - I either need ways to deal with it and enchantments (sorry to keep saying this as I know it cant really be done), or Cabal Therapy.... but I am DEFINITELY now going to go 3x Stylus 3x Scepter merely because of this. It's worth not being able to get full use of Volrath's Stronghold to not lose as badly to opposing Pithing Needles. I think Cabal Therapy and/or Withered Wretch may need to come into the maindeck... [I]I seem to board Wretch&Jitte in almost every game!
[/I]Here are the closing DeckThoughts
Massacre
Infest
Propaganda
Shield Sphere
Daze
Cabal Therapy
Dark Ritual
Mana Breach (seriously might have helped today)
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
From what i can see here are the pros and cons
Pros:
- not to hard to get out with your discard
- makes FOW useless in any deck that runs it
- shuts down solidarity or atleast slows them down due to them having to answer the card to go off
- considerably slows down burns clock
- hurts and deck with many instants, not just countermagic
- another card in your deck people will have to read when you play it
- wont hurt you much, you only run echoing truth MD and Funeral Charm SB both of which I dont see being in the deck at the same time as this card
Cons:
- raises mana curve
- possibly only a temporary solution, it will be bounce, you will have to win before they find a fix
- not sure if its better/more applicable then your current solution
im sure there are more cons but im at work and in a rush. Hope this card helps.
As for angel stompy, as long as they are a competent player and don't attack with mothers, they should win. It's easily not a good match-up. At least 65-35 in thier favor. They have more threats AND answer than you. Grabbing angel isn't GG b/c they still have answer for it. Furthermore, most of Vial Horror's answers are only temporary. Granted saying it's unwinable is an exadgeration (sp?) but saying it can win is like saying Rifter can beat combo (okay, not even close to that bad, but it's still very bad.)
Glad you gave up on Negators, but do tell me how Leak+FoW works out. Hopefully Confidant doesn't reveal FoW too often, the chances are somewhat slim... but you lose the security that you can keep a Confidant out at 3 life and not lose - in this deck, you can easily Scepter away your Confidants end of turn, however. As for Angel Stompy, it seems like I should definitely lose, and I often do, but I'm not THAT worried about that matchup. I've always hated %/% matchup analysis - they are NEVER accurate and are always made up...
z38gm, that's genius! At least on paper, it looks beautiful (but I'll have to test it of course). You've listed the pros and the cons wonderfully and even looked up how much it goes for (since its Legends)... This card would be perfect if it costed 2, but is still amazing at 2U. It's a piece that helps vs. Solidarity and Burn as you said, and Threshold too. I like it a lot!
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Sure... but the only testing I'v done is on MWS/Apprentice.
Angel Stompy:
5 different players. 4 played Mother MD. In total, I've played about 9 matches. I've won 2 games and 0 matches with Isamaru's Funeral Charm SB build. One of the games I won was just by racing with turn 3+4 hunted horrors. (Duress, Scepter, Scepter, Horror, Horror.) I guess he never drew StP and I Duressed away 1 Wave. The other game, He was just stuck on 1 land for like 6 turns. He got out 2 mothers, a Hound, and a Lions. That just gave me enough time to get out a horror and beat face. I ended up playing like 2 Duresses and 3 hymns before that I think. I didn't hit land, he just got land screwed. The rest just seemed like I couldn't do anything... I played a couple of matches with Isamaru too. I don't think Angel stompy ever lost.
I've played 2 matches vs. BW Discard (the deck pox evolved into. Basicly BW Confidant with The Rack)
Lost 0-4. He has StP, Vindicate, and Diabolic edicts in SB. He matches my duresses + hymns but in addition has the possibility of turn 1 Hyppie. He matches my draw with confidants. I have no answer to The Rack except for Echoing truth, confidant, and holding cards. E. Truthing Rack seems like a waste. I'd rather hit hyppie. Confidant and holding cards are hardly answers cause they just rip out cards with StP. idk... his deck just seems better I guess.
I've won vs. a bunch of random decks like Zoo (he got land flooded), BR Sligh (not sui), and other random decks.