Ok,
Since the fastest version of Hulk Flash, Epic Summoner's Pact, or whatever you want to call (Personally, I really like the name Hulk Flash) it is not legal till after the GP at Columbus, I wanted to create a seperate discussion for anyone looking to create a version to be played at the GP.
I will update this more, but I just got a call, and have to attend a meeting.
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In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
Erm how do you guys beat turn 0 leyline? Pray to get the cunning wish into bounce?
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Erm how do you guys beat turn 0 leyline? Pray to get the cunning wish into bounce?
Well since a very low % of the decks will have Leyline of the Void in their maindeck, I think the sideboard will be directed at handling that and other things, but thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS.
However, I think it would be the opponent that would be praying to get a Leyling of the Void. Calculate the chances of having it in your openning hand, and you'll realize how it isn't the best card to bring in.
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In Vintage (Type 1) > Budget Deck Discussion forum:
I think it should be called "Columbus Crush" just because
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Avid EDH player GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
Is there any chance I can get a decklist for this deck? I'll check back to this thread, but if someone wants to PM it to me, too, that'd be awesome. I get the generally idea, just wanted to see a full decklist. Thanks. -Jack
So, although the perspective of this combo wrecking GP Columbus saddens me, I must admits I'm still amused about brainstorming on it and getting a decent deck based on it pre-FS.
Thinking more about it and reading a bit on other sites, I see the following :
- turn 0 kills are not so likely as post-FS (Worldly Tutor costs 1 and doesn't give the card) and way easier to FoW (no Pact of Negation). Although it's cute when it happens, I don't think that aiming at a turn 0 kill is the best strategy. Gemstone Caverns remains a pretty good accelerant though, gaining one turn easily.
- I think 8 Spirit Guides is overkill. Pre-FS, there is a need for mana and islands if using Daze.
- Daze actually more attractive than Misdirection because it stops Stifle.
- Worldly Tutor can be fetched by the Mystical : 4 of it seems overkill. 2 should be enough.
- Commandeer seems too expensive in terms of blue cards to me for the mirror. It eats any possible backup to respond to a Misdirection and FoW. Also, it presupposes that you have the Hulk in hand for it to work, which reduces further the chances of having back-up.
- Dandan can still be chumped by Spirit Guides or spare creatures.
- Negator could be OK if the Mirror ends up being a waiting game. Although the kill is not instantaneous anymore, a Negator can be hardcast and this opens slots for Leyline and Stifle : self-hating sideboard ftw.
Sideboard (15) 2x Stifle (in place of 2 Shifting Wall in the mirror) 4x Leyline of the Void (in place of 3 Phyrexian Marauder and 1 Shifting Wall in the mirror) 4x Phyrexian Negator (in place of 4 Disciples in the mirror) 2x Chain of Vapor (for Leyline and Meddling Mage) 2x Echoing Truth (for Leyline, Meddling Mage and Chalice) 1x Merchant Scroll (for Meddling Mage and Chalice)
It also feels like this deck wants to draw first, due to its speed, Gemstone Caverns and the card disadvantage it "suffers" in general.
That is an example of one made in the last thread
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Avid EDH player GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
Well since a very low % of the decks will have Leyline of the Void in their maindeck, I think the sideboard will be directed at handling that and other things, but thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS.
However, I think it would be the opponent that would be praying to get a Leyling of the Void. Calculate the chances of having it in your openning hand, and you'll realize how it isn't the best card to bring in.
Wouldn't the obvious be that this card will most probably (or at least should)be banned before the GP considering the ridiculousness it will bring to what would have been a great tournament?
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Well since a very low % of the decks will have Leyline of the Void in their maindeck, I think the sideboard will be directed at handling that and other things, but thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS.
However, I think it would be the opponent that would be praying to get a Leyling of the Void. Calculate the chances of having it in your openning hand, and you'll realize how it isn't the best card to bring in.
Well thanks for trying to make me feel like a moron, however you have become blatantly unwaware of Black Stax which Maindecks four of the leyline and even if it was sideboarded and they knew your combo required you to have access to a graveyard there's this nifty thing called a mulligan... Not to mention the actual odds of getting a card that is a 4 of in an opening hand is roughly 53% you've got a coin flip shot at winning that "prayer"
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Wouldn't the obvious be that this card will most probably (or at least should)be banned before the GP considering the ridiculousness it will bring to what would have been a great tournament?
it is not as impressive pre-FS as you may think. We have tested it as much as we have had time for, and are not THAT impressed considering the hype.
it is not as impressive pre-FS as you may think. We have tested it as much as we have had time for, and are not THAT impressed considering the hype.
So is this deck actually going to be a competitor for GP - Columbus or just a gimmick for now? The deck seems pretty powerful to me, and unbelievably fast even pre-FS, so I may build it, but that's going to cost a bit of money (I'm new to Legacy). Would it be viable to run? -Jack
I playtested this deck against Goblins post-sideboard (a U splashed Gobos I've been working on). It sided in 4 Stifle and 4 Trickbind and was able to consistantly stop the Incredible Hullk. I'm debating between Gobos and Incredible Hulk and, after this playtesting, Gobos seems better. This deck gets an auto-win game one 99% of the time, but post-SB (with the SB I built), it's almost an auto-loss. What does this deck do against such a SB? Transformational? -Jack
I've been reading lots of threads and goldfishing this deck lately and a few things have come to mind. Puzzle, I like your list in general but I believe you need at least 7 of the 8 artifact creatures just for consistency issues and drawing multiples. I also wouldn't run less than 3 worldly tutor.
My main issue, however, is with the Gemstone Caverns. If as you said in your last post we are not aiming for a turn 0-1 kill very often (which I agree with btw) since we don't have Pact of Negation backup, why are we still running caverns??? In order for caverns to do something you must first be on the draw, and second and more importantly, have a second land in your hand to actually use the accelleration. Sure, you can tutor on your opponents first turn but I'm not sure that's worth discarding a card. The real problem is you only have 8 non-Caverns lands and you need a cavern and another land for it to be truly effective in my opinion. Please weigh in your thoughts here as I just don't feel like the small boost in mana is worth the card disadvantage in the current build.
@Jack : Against that sort of hate , with boarded in dazes and extra protection you just go off 1 turn slower and have 11 free counters (post FS) and 7 free counters (Pre-FS), so chances are equal that if you have a stifel effect I have a counter for it.
Well, I'm preparing for GP - Columbus, so we're working of the seven free counters. But what does a counter mean, free or not, if it gets Trickbinded? Split Second has a way of messing with Blue's control cards.
which deck plays such a SB? Sorry but Gobo´s with U-splash is not a deck to compare with 0o Best thing against this would be siding in/playing Duress
My deck plays such a SB. It is effective against The Incredible Hulk, IGGy-Pop, TES, Solidarity, and any other Storm based deck. The maindeck doesn't use any Blue cards, but all the Blue sources also produce Red, so there's no loss. The maindeck is just as strong and the sideboard is still able to stop any threat. Stifle and Trickbind can also randomly be good against some things, but mostly against Storm based decks, what appears to be my builds worst matchup, so half my sideboard dedicated to them seems fair enough.
In case you weren't aware, this isn't hyperbole that I throw around loosely anytime a new deck comes up. Usually I'm far more likely to err on the side of under-rating a new deck or card than the reverse.
This statement didn't come from nowhere. I was very healthily skeptical of the deck before I began testing it. Then I tested it.
The entire top 8 is quite literally going to be entirely made up of Flash-Hulk and Flash-Hulk hate. There's going to be probably 20 copies of Flash and 28 copies of Force of Will in the decklists. One deck will probably sneak in without Force of Will- probably something monoblack or black/white with Leyline of the Voids, Duress, and Unmasks.
Please, before you make any other statements, actually test with the deck. By this I don't mean goldfish- play against other decks. Play against Gro or other decks that traditionally do well against combo. You're going to be unpleasantly surprised.
It's a bit dishonorable to bring this deck because of what the Legacy community and this GP represent, but when faced with this large of a chance to win the entire GP with one combo deck, I guess it's hard not to.
It would have just been nice if Wizards wouldn't constantly screw Legacy randomly - within the action in which they were supporting it most. (I'm saying that if they are going to enable innovation, at least do it in a way that doesn't rape the format worse than Affinity.)
I might consider starting a thread about this in the main... I am just a bit disappointed.
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Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I don't mean to offend but if your gambling on winning game2 and 3 on 4 trickbind and 4 volcanic island then I think you need to reconsider.
As IBA posted above, the T8 will be HulkFlash or Anti HulkFlash.
Actually, game 2 and 3 is going to be won on 4 Stifles, 4 Trickbinds, and essentially 10 Volcanic Islands (7 fetches and 3 V.I.). That seems like a pretty good suite of anti-Hulk tech. I think there is too much faith being put in this deck for the GP. Post-FS, yes, it will be unbelievable. Pre-FS, I don't think it'll live up to the hype. -Jack
mono colored decks probably won't have a huge issue dealing with this deck, if they expect to have to play against it. Splashing blue or black will help, via stifles or discard.
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Avid EDH player GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
It's a bit dishonorable to bring this deck because of what the Legacy community and this GP represent, but when faced with this large of a chance to win the entire GP with one combo deck, I guess it's hard not to.
Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean.
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Two people telling you that should meet your criteria, Puzzle. Yes?
Honestly, the combo is so strong it would be silly to let it be nerfed by hording slots for defense or search.
EDIT: @Bel, I tested all of my own decks against it, and came to the following conclusions:
Death and Taxes: Mana Tithe helped, but not anywhere close to enough. Lost 5 out of 6 matches after trying to alter D+T to compete.
Land Ho!: strictly unplayable. Even with the Black splash, there are too many slots necessary to making the deck's primary strategy useful.
Dirt: This is workable. I went 5-3 in matches after making considerable changes. Of course, it now loses pretty hard to Goblins game one, and is weaker in general against storm combo and aggro (although aggro is still pretty strong).
Welder Survival: strictly unplayable. Ditto Land Ho!
The only way I can see hardcasting a disciple as being a "loss" is that it might give your opponent the chance to use removal on it, where as pulling it out with the hulk is kind of instant D:
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Avid EDH player GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
Two people telling you that should meet your criteria, Puzzle. Yes?
Honestly, the combo is so strong it would be silly to let it be nerfed by hording slots for defense or search.
EDIT: @Bel, I tested all of my own decks against it, and came to the following conclusions:
Death and Taxes: Mana Tithe helped, but not anywhere close to enough. Lost 5 out of 6 matches after trying to alter D+T to compete.
Land Ho!: strictly unplayable. Even with the Black splash, there are too many slots necessary to making the deck's primary strategy useful.
Dirt: This is workable. I went 5-3 in matches after making considerable changes. Of course, it now loses pretty hard to Goblins game one, and is weaker in general against storm combo and aggro (although aggro is still pretty strong).
Welder Survival: strictly unplayable. Ditto Land Ho!
this is correct analysis Finn. the deck is very strong that it forces you to alter your deck's game plan so radically that you arent going to be competitive versus standard tough decks like goblins.
i am surprised that this deck hasnt even been moved to Competitive.
Since the fastest version of Hulk Flash, Epic Summoner's Pact, or whatever you want to call (Personally, I really like the name Hulk Flash) it is not legal till after the GP at Columbus, I wanted to create a seperate discussion for anyone looking to create a version to be played at the GP.
I will update this more, but I just got a call, and have to attend a meeting.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Well since a very low % of the decks will have Leyline of the Void in their maindeck, I think the sideboard will be directed at handling that and other things, but thank you for pointing out the OBVIOUS.
However, I think it would be the opponent that would be praying to get a Leyling of the Void. Calculate the chances of having it in your openning hand, and you'll realize how it isn't the best card to bring in.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
I can consistently pull turn 2-3 wins out of TES and Solidarity can simply go off in response to your combo.
Just some things I thought you may want to consider.
GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth
WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother
BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator
BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
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Go to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
That is an example of one made in the last thread
GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth
WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother
BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator
BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
Wouldn't the obvious be that this card will most probably (or at least should)be banned before the GP considering the ridiculousness it will bring to what would have been a great tournament?
Spread the word.
Well thanks for trying to make me feel like a moron, however you have become blatantly unwaware of Black Stax which Maindecks four of the leyline and even if it was sideboarded and they knew your combo required you to have access to a graveyard there's this nifty thing called a mulligan... Not to mention the actual odds of getting a card that is a 4 of in an opening hand is roughly 53% you've got a coin flip shot at winning that "prayer"
it is not as impressive pre-FS as you may think. We have tested it as much as we have had time for, and are not THAT impressed considering the hype.
So is this deck actually going to be a competitor for GP - Columbus or just a gimmick for now? The deck seems pretty powerful to me, and unbelievably fast even pre-FS, so I may build it, but that's going to cost a bit of money (I'm new to Legacy). Would it be viable to run? -Jack
Want a cool banner like mine?
Go to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
Want a cool banner like mine?
Go to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
My main issue, however, is with the Gemstone Caverns. If as you said in your last post we are not aiming for a turn 0-1 kill very often (which I agree with btw) since we don't have Pact of Negation backup, why are we still running caverns??? In order for caverns to do something you must first be on the draw, and second and more importantly, have a second land in your hand to actually use the accelleration. Sure, you can tutor on your opponents first turn but I'm not sure that's worth discarding a card. The real problem is you only have 8 non-Caverns lands and you need a cavern and another land for it to be truly effective in my opinion. Please weigh in your thoughts here as I just don't feel like the small boost in mana is worth the card disadvantage in the current build.
Well, I'm preparing for GP - Columbus, so we're working of the seven free counters. But what does a counter mean, free or not, if it gets Trickbinded? Split Second has a way of messing with Blue's control cards.
My deck plays such a SB. It is effective against The Incredible Hulk, IGGy-Pop, TES, Solidarity, and any other Storm based deck. The maindeck doesn't use any Blue cards, but all the Blue sources also produce Red, so there's no loss. The maindeck is just as strong and the sideboard is still able to stop any threat. Stifle and Trickbind can also randomly be good against some things, but mostly against Storm based decks, what appears to be my builds worst matchup, so half my sideboard dedicated to them seems fair enough.
The Duress, though, is a good suggestion. -Jack
Want a cool banner like mine?
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Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
In case you weren't aware, this isn't hyperbole that I throw around loosely anytime a new deck comes up. Usually I'm far more likely to err on the side of under-rating a new deck or card than the reverse.
This statement didn't come from nowhere. I was very healthily skeptical of the deck before I began testing it. Then I tested it.
The entire top 8 is quite literally going to be entirely made up of Flash-Hulk and Flash-Hulk hate. There's going to be probably 20 copies of Flash and 28 copies of Force of Will in the decklists. One deck will probably sneak in without Force of Will- probably something monoblack or black/white with Leyline of the Voids, Duress, and Unmasks.
Please, before you make any other statements, actually test with the deck. By this I don't mean goldfish- play against other decks. Play against Gro or other decks that traditionally do well against combo. You're going to be unpleasantly surprised.
It would have just been nice if Wizards wouldn't constantly screw Legacy randomly - within the action in which they were supporting it most. (I'm saying that if they are going to enable innovation, at least do it in a way that doesn't rape the format worse than Affinity.)
I might consider starting a thread about this in the main... I am just a bit disappointed.
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
Actually, game 2 and 3 is going to be won on 4 Stifles, 4 Trickbinds, and essentially 10 Volcanic Islands (7 fetches and 3 V.I.). That seems like a pretty good suite of anti-Hulk tech. I think there is too much faith being put in this deck for the GP. Post-FS, yes, it will be unbelievable. Pre-FS, I don't think it'll live up to the hype. -Jack
Want a cool banner like mine?
Go to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
Vizzerdrix Count = 183, 3 in Italian, 2 Foil
GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth
WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother
BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator
BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure what you mean.
Honestly, the combo is so strong it would be silly to let it be nerfed by hording slots for defense or search.
EDIT: @Bel, I tested all of my own decks against it, and came to the following conclusions:
Death and Taxes: Mana Tithe helped, but not anywhere close to enough. Lost 5 out of 6 matches after trying to alter D+T to compete.
Land Ho!: strictly unplayable. Even with the Black splash, there are too many slots necessary to making the deck's primary strategy useful.
Dirt: This is workable. I went 5-3 in matches after making considerable changes. Of course, it now loses pretty hard to Goblins game one, and is weaker in general against storm combo and aggro (although aggro is still pretty strong).
Welder Survival: strictly unplayable. Ditto Land Ho!
GWUPhelddagrif----------------GWRhys, the Redeemed----------UBRLord of Tresserhorn--------XKozilek, Butcher of Truth
WUBRGProgenitus---------------BGWKarador, Ghost Chieftain---URGIntet, the Dreamer---------RGWort, the Raidmother
BGSavra-----------------------RGMarhault Elsdragon----------UTeferi, Mage of Zhalfir------UWHanna, Ship's Navigator
BSkithiryx the Blight Dragon--RWUZedruu the Greathearted----BRelentless Rats------------BRUNicol Bolas
this is correct analysis Finn. the deck is very strong that it forces you to alter your deck's game plan so radically that you arent going to be competitive versus standard tough decks like goblins.
i am surprised that this deck hasnt even been moved to Competitive.
where are the Mods!? Aok?