1st off, this is the fastest combo in the game of Magic.
The 2nd deck list can go off on your opponent's upkeep when he's on the play. Thus, this is a turn zero win.
There has been a flood of talk about the new Oracle text of the card Flash on other forums right now, and I thought I'd bring it to this Forum.
I have come up with two different decks that I like that abuse this card until it its Oracle Text is changed back.
1st deck is the one I came up with on my own, and was designed to face 1st turn Pithing needles and other problems, as wel
12 Key Creatures
4 Protean Hulk
2 Academy Rector
2 Carrion Feeder
3 Disciple of the Vault
1 Arcbound Ravager
2 Enchantments
2 Goblin Bombardment
17 Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
5 Island
4 Chrome Mox
15 Side Board
1 Accursed Centaur
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Show and Tell
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Lich
2 Children of Korlis
2 Tendrils of Agony
For those that don't see how the combo works I'll explain. Step #1: Cast Flash, put Protean Hulk into play, but sacrifice it by choosing not to pay the additional cost.
Step #2: Search your library for 4 Ornithopter, 4 Phyrexian Walker, 3 Shield Sphere, or play them from your hand. Also depending what is in your hand and the board status, you can then decide how to finish off your opponent with the 6 allotted mana cost totaled creatures. The choices are as follows.
Primary: 3 Disciple of the Vault & 1 Arcbound Ravager, then sacrifice your ammo creatures to Arcbound Ravager.
Grand Total of -36 Life, and end of game.
Secondary: 1 Academy Rector, 1 Carrion Feeder, & 1 Disciple of the Vault. This is your choice if you have 2 Disciples of the Vault or the Arcbound Ravager in your hand. If this is your choice proceed to Step #3.
Step #3: Sacrifice Academy Rector to Carrion Feeder.
Step #4: Remove Academy Rector and search library for Goblin Bombardment and put it into play.
Step #5: Sacrifice all of your ammo creatures followed by the Disciple of the Vault and the Carrion Feeder to Goblin Bombardment.
Grand Total of 13 Damage and -11 Life, and end of game.
Last thing, you will notice that this is a 61 card deck currently, and the Side Board is just filled with cards I was toying with while making the deck and trying to work out how to break it. I was running it against almost every possible 1st turn play by an opponent (other than discard) and looking for cards that would stop it from comboing off because of a permanent. One of the problems I thought of was a Mono White deck dropping a 1st turn True Believer. While there are others that stop you from going off such as Trinisphere, True Believer could be answered by adding a single card, one more Shield Sphere. I am looking at what to cut, and I am thinking either a Pack of Negation or a Brainstorm.
2nd Deck is one that has come together from a few people working together on it including myself.
-shirie is their to help you from crapping out with bad hands (drawing 3 disiples and you can still win)
its true....25%!
turn 1 kills is around 50%!....turn 3 is the latest i gone off
(you only need 7 ammo creatures because you can do this
search for 1 disicple, 7 ammo an 1 shirie eot (opponents) they do 7 damage, come back EOT deal 7 damage, your turn end the turn they come back and do 7 more damage)
it is just as consistent going off secound as first...gemstone caverns so far hasnt proved detremental (although a dead card) when going first.
Like we talked on the other forum, I think Shirei can be replaced by Clone, but I think all 8 of the ammo creatures is need.
Either way, both versions of the deck are right around low to mid 20% Turn Zero win which means one thing.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Flash will be errated very soon.
The only reason why I believe we both have passed on Merchant Scroll is because it costs 2 mana, and that usually means burning a source of mana that is needed for blue mana or the second mana needed to go off. Brainstorm would be more acceptable than Merchant Scroll though.
I just made this deck on MWS, and when I started to play it, the first two matches were the mirror :-O! With all the tutoring and protection, flash may be rerattad.
P.S. This deck should definetly be named HULK FLASH!!
hahah so how long do we have until Wizards realizes that randomly deciding to change it back to the BEFORE-they-fixed-the-oracle-text wording was retarded?
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While netdecking and testing VileHorror i thought about Biorhythm. Sure its really expensive, off-color and crappy but still you're always the one with creatures while playing VH. That made me think.
I'll go off of the second decklist and just give a random example...
Have in play Gemstone Caverns at beginning of game.
Upkeep, play:
-Flash, using ESG/SSG as second mana.
-Play Protean Hulk, sacrificing it as part of Flash's resolution.
-Search for all the 0-cost creatures and Disciples (Possibly Clone just for good measure)
-0-cost creatures die to state-based effects, triggering the Disciples for lethal life loss.
What you need shirei's for? I mean, you efficiently win if you get flash to resolve with hulk in hand, as you can get multiples of disciplines.
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The Sage is occupied with the unspoken
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
WTF!!!111ONE!
I was about to post in here something along the lines of "read gatherer text n00b" but I looked it up...
When the **** did Wizards de-errata Flash? And why didn't they tell anyone (i.e. me) about it? And do they realise how b0rken it is?! ZOMG
Academy Rect0rz!!1!
--Ahem. *Runs out to card shop and scoops up all copies of Flash for >$1*
there is no point to winning on turn 0/1 in legacy...
The purpose of a combo deck is to win as fast as humanly possible. This build looks pretty good...
It doesn't have to even be a combo deck. Its just a huge potential for a utility card.
I don't know if it will be this deck, but watch for Flash in your local metagame soon.
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Johnny (with a touch of Spike)..
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer Raccoons please My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007 IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
the point of a combo deck isnt winning as soon as possible, its winning the turn (or second in the case of solidarity) before you are about to lose.
I disagree. That is the point of Solidarity. Solidarity is not your average combo deck. Most combo decks do not have the luxury of complete domination of the stack (and that includes the one under discussion). I'll repeat - you should try to win as fast as humanly possible, before your opponent can get their disruption online. By the time you are about to lose, you have already lost several turns ago when they dropped that Trinisphere. That is the whole reason why Vintage decks win on turn 1 - they can only go off at sorcery speed and they run little or no protection from disruption. There is absolutely no reason why Legacy would be any different.
But Flash is so gonna get banned (early testing of a completely different deck suggests its at least as powerful as say Oath of Druids)...lets have our fun while we can.
Suffice it to say that I think the deck under discussion is the wrong idea...a fast combo is fine and good, but relying on one card to win is bad...Meddling Mage, Trickbind...
I'm not saying these questions aren't answerable, but I'm saying that its possible to actually break the meta with Flash. You don't have to devote so much deckspace to the combo, you only really have to protect one card.
Let me suggest an alternate deck:
EDIT: Let me post my alternative decklist in a new thread so as not to hijack this one.;)
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Johnny (with a touch of Spike)..
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer Raccoons please My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007 IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
Perhaps Flash was already errataed back or something but if not then I have a question: Does this really work?
The key part I believe is here:
04.10.2004 You choose the creature card, optionally pay its mana cost, then put it into play if you paid the cost or into the graveyard if you didn't. All this happens during the resolution.
So does it even actually enter play if you don't pay? The wording here suggests that it goes directly into the graveyard. Or is this point here old and no longer correct? If so why did they not remove it when the intended change was made? Ect...
Perhaps Flash was already errataed back or something but if not then I have a question: Does this really work?
The key part I believe is here:
So does it even actually enter play if you don't pay? The wording here suggests that it goes directly into the graveyard. Or is this point here old and no longer correct? If so why did they not remove it when the intended change was made? Ect...
Just wondering...
~Nim
Old Gatherer rulings stay around forever. There are heaps of inaccurate rulings in Gatherer, even ones from pre-6th edition rules...for instance on Illusionary Mask and Time Vault.
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Johnny (with a touch of Spike)..
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer Raccoons please My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007 IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
Thats fine but what makes you say it is no longer correct?
Again I just would like it cleared up a bit...
~Nim
*Edit: Was this the old text?
Choose a creature card in your hand. You may pay its mana cost reduced by up to {2}. If you do, put that card into play. If you don't, put that card into your graveyard.
Hmmm... Well I can see why it could work now but I wouldn't be surprised if the old ruleing was upheld in a tourney...
Anyhow, sorry for bothering you guys.
Perhaps Serum Powder has a home here? Could be a bit risky with just the one Ravager, but otherwise it would probably raise your odds of going off before they can do anything.
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Founding member of Team Kris Kross. Would you like to join?
There was a thread with this deck at the wizards forum. Someone who is friends with a judge said that will probably change it around May 1st, I think the next Gatherer update. I really hope they do because otherwise we are going to have to deal with this rediculously good deck.
There was a thread with this deck at the wizards forum. Someone who is friends with a judge said that will probably change it around May 1st, I think the next Gatherer update. I really hope they do because otherwise we are going to have to deal with this rediculously good deck.
I hope they don't I sorta bought the protean hulk, flash, and other couple of cards I was missing already off of ebay.
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That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Actually , they would most likely not do anything till June 1st (after colombus)
Because that is when they have indicated they will do the Banned/restricted changes.
they usually don't ban stuff until it has been in a tournament already anyways (excluding memory jar)
I have been testing this deck out after this dude played it while I played 43 land.dec, I was helpless... I hope they don't ban/change before gen con because I am planning on playing it
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The 2nd deck list can go off on your opponent's upkeep when he's on the play. Thus, this is a turn zero win.
There has been a flood of talk about the new Oracle text of the card Flash on other forums right now, and I thought I'd bring it to this Forum.
I have come up with two different decks that I like that abuse this card until it its Oracle Text is changed back.
1st deck is the one I came up with on my own, and was designed to face 1st turn Pithing needles and other problems, as wel
19 Setup/Protection
4 Flash
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
11 Ammo Creatures
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Ornithopter
3 Shield Sphere
12 Key Creatures
4 Protean Hulk
2 Academy Rector
2 Carrion Feeder
3 Disciple of the Vault
1 Arcbound Ravager
2 Enchantments
2 Goblin Bombardment
17 Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
5 Island
4 Chrome Mox
15 Side Board
1 Accursed Centaur
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Show and Tell
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Lich
2 Children of Korlis
2 Tendrils of Agony
For those that don't see how the combo works I'll explain.
Step #1: Cast Flash, put Protean Hulk into play, but sacrifice it by choosing not to pay the additional cost.
Step #2: Search your library for 4 Ornithopter, 4 Phyrexian Walker, 3 Shield Sphere, or play them from your hand. Also depending what is in your hand and the board status, you can then decide how to finish off your opponent with the 6 allotted mana cost totaled creatures. The choices are as follows.
Primary: 3 Disciple of the Vault & 1 Arcbound Ravager, then sacrifice your ammo creatures to Arcbound Ravager.
Grand Total of -36 Life, and end of game.
Secondary: 1 Academy Rector, 1 Carrion Feeder, & 1 Disciple of the Vault. This is your choice if you have 2 Disciples of the Vault or the Arcbound Ravager in your hand. If this is your choice proceed to Step #3.
Step #3: Sacrifice Academy Rector to Carrion Feeder.
Step #4: Remove Academy Rector and search library for Goblin Bombardment and put it into play.
Step #5: Sacrifice all of your ammo creatures followed by the Disciple of the Vault and the Carrion Feeder to Goblin Bombardment.
Grand Total of 13 Damage and -11 Life, and end of game.
Last thing, you will notice that this is a 61 card deck currently, and the Side Board is just filled with cards I was toying with while making the deck and trying to work out how to break it. I was running it against almost every possible 1st turn play by an opponent (other than discard) and looking for cards that would stop it from comboing off because of a permanent. One of the problems I thought of was a Mono White deck dropping a 1st turn True Believer. While there are others that stop you from going off such as Trinisphere, True Believer could be answered by adding a single card, one more Shield Sphere. I am looking at what to cut, and I am thinking either a Pack of Negation or a Brainstorm.
2nd Deck is one that has come together from a few people working together on it including myself.
19 Mana
4 Gemstone Cavern
3 SSG
4 ESG
4 Islands
4 Lotus Petal
20 Support
4 Summoner's pact
4 Flash
4 Mystical Tutors
4 Pact of negation
4 Force of Will
21 Creatures
1 Clone
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Protean Hulk
4 Phryxian Marauders
4 Shifting Walls.
4 Street Wraith
The second deck is actually designed to always play second, not first.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
turn 0 wins around 25%! ....really i know that seam dumb but with this list
5 Islands
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoners pact
4 Flash
4 Mystical Tutors
4 Pact of negation
4 Force of Will
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Protean Hulk
2 SSG
4 ESG
3 Phryxian Marauders
4 Shifting Wall
4 Street Wraith
-shirie is their to help you from crapping out with bad hands (drawing 3 disiples and you can still win)
its true....25%!
turn 1 kills is around 50%!....turn 3 is the latest i gone off
(you only need 7 ammo creatures because you can do this
search for 1 disicple, 7 ammo an 1 shirie eot (opponents) they do 7 damage, come back EOT deal 7 damage, your turn end the turn they come back and do 7 more damage)
it is just as consistent going off secound as first...gemstone caverns so far hasnt proved detremental (although a dead card) when going first.
Either way, both versions of the deck are right around low to mid 20% Turn Zero win which means one thing.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Flash will be errated very soon.
The only reason why I believe we both have passed on Merchant Scroll is because it costs 2 mana, and that usually means burning a source of mana that is needed for blue mana or the second mana needed to go off. Brainstorm would be more acceptable than Merchant Scroll though.
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
Mystic, I just noted you miscounted. you actually have 59 cards. Add that 8th Ammo creature now!!! LOL
Nothing says budget help like receiving $5000 in recommendations.
I guess leaving out Time Walk, Timetwister, and Ancestral Recall is budget.
4x Lotus Petal
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Island
4x Gemstone Cavern
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Protean Hulk
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Flash
Combo Creatures (12)
4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Phyrexian Marauder
4x Shifting Wall
4x Force of Will
4x Pact of Negation
Thinning the deck (4)
4x Street Wraith
Why the lonely Clone?
I like the deck a lot. Do you think it can be competitive?
P.S. This deck should definetly be named HULK FLASH!!
Celebrating 3 years of open-minded acceptance, indispensable help, great advice, and incalculably-creative deck-design... Thanks for all the magic!
could someone give me an example of a turn 0 win?
what does flash does now that it didnt do last time?
Have in play Gemstone Caverns at beginning of game.
Upkeep, play:
-Flash, using ESG/SSG as second mana.
-Play Protean Hulk, sacrificing it as part of Flash's resolution.
-Search for all the 0-cost creatures and Disciples (Possibly Clone just for good measure)
-0-cost creatures die to state-based effects, triggering the Disciples for lethal life loss.
静
I am running this at the moment
[deck]
4 Island
4 Seat of Synod
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Flash
4 Pact of Negotiaon
4 Summoners Pact
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Chains of Vapor
4 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
2 Ravengers
4 Ornithopters
2 Shield Spheres
[/deck
I don't think Flash is going to get errated, i think its going to be banned.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
there is no point to winning on turn 0/1 in legacy...
i think that you should get more disruption and build up instead of tying to win turn 0/1
maybe in vintage it would be nessessary.. but not legacy.
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
4 Flash
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
Ammo Creatures
4 Phyrexian Marauder
4 Shifting Wall
Key Creatures
4 Protean Hulk
1 Academy Rector
4 Disciple of the Vault
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Goblin Bombardment
Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
4 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Cavern
4 Force of Will
What you need shirei's for? I mean, you efficiently win if you get flash to resolve with hulk in hand, as you can get multiples of disciplines.
and acts without effort.
Teaching without verbosity,
producing without possessing,
creating without regard to result,
claiming nothing,
the Sage has nothing to lose.
I was about to post in here something along the lines of "read gatherer text n00b" but I looked it up...
When the **** did Wizards de-errata Flash? And why didn't they tell anyone (i.e. me) about it? And do they realise how b0rken it is?! ZOMG
Academy Rect0rz!!1!
--Ahem. *Runs out to card shop and scoops up all copies of Flash for >$1*
The purpose of a combo deck is to win as fast as humanly possible. This build looks pretty good...
It doesn't have to even be a combo deck. Its just a huge potential for a utility card.
I don't know if it will be this deck, but watch for Flash in your local metagame soon.
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer
Raccoons please
My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
I disagree. That is the point of Solidarity. Solidarity is not your average combo deck. Most combo decks do not have the luxury of complete domination of the stack (and that includes the one under discussion). I'll repeat - you should try to win as fast as humanly possible, before your opponent can get their disruption online. By the time you are about to lose, you have already lost several turns ago when they dropped that Trinisphere. That is the whole reason why Vintage decks win on turn 1 - they can only go off at sorcery speed and they run little or no protection from disruption. There is absolutely no reason why Legacy would be any different.
But Flash is so gonna get banned (early testing of a completely different deck suggests its at least as powerful as say Oath of Druids)...lets have our fun while we can.
Suffice it to say that I think the deck under discussion is the wrong idea...a fast combo is fine and good, but relying on one card to win is bad...Meddling Mage, Trickbind...
I'm not saying these questions aren't answerable, but I'm saying that its possible to actually break the meta with Flash. You don't have to devote so much deckspace to the combo, you only really have to protect one card.
Let me suggest an alternate deck:
EDIT: Let me post my alternative decklist in a new thread so as not to hijack this one.;)
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer
Raccoons please
My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
The key part I believe is here:
So does it even actually enter play if you don't pay? The wording here suggests that it goes directly into the graveyard. Or is this point here old and no longer correct? If so why did they not remove it when the intended change was made? Ect...
Just wondering...
~Nim
Old Gatherer rulings stay around forever. There are heaps of inaccurate rulings in Gatherer, even ones from pre-6th edition rules...for instance on Illusionary Mask and Time Vault.
Creator of Thoughtless Sensei and Morph Aggro
Gaymer
Raccoons please
My artworkz
"We've made OVER NINE THOUSAND unique cards."
- MaRo, October 8th, 2007
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAND!!!!!
Again I just would like it cleared up a bit...
~Nim
*Edit: Was this the old text?
Choose a creature card in your hand. You may pay its mana cost reduced by up to {2}. If you do, put that card into play. If you don't, put that card into your graveyard.
Hmmm... Well I can see why it could work now but I wouldn't be surprised if the old ruleing was upheld in a tourney...
Anyhow, sorry for bothering you guys.
http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=3337
You may put a creature card from your hand into play. If you do, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana cost reduced by up to
so yes, flash works the way it works currently.
why did they errata it? and when?
i think it may be a gatherer mistake
3 Nether Shadow BETA
2 Plateau
2 Bayou
HAVES:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=71454
Power does not corrupt, power attracts those that are inherently corruptible.
The powerful prognosticative powers of Leonginus - a "force" indeed!!
I hope they don't I sorta bought the protean hulk, flash, and other couple of cards I was missing already off of ebay.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
they usually don't ban stuff until it has been in a tournament already anyways (excluding memory jar)
I have been testing this deck out after this dude played it while I played 43 land.dec, I was helpless... I hope they don't ban/change before gen con because I am planning on playing it