MTG Salvation

Quote from Magique

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20712_Ideas_Unbound_The_Next_Evolution_in_Legacy_Beatdown.html

Here's the decklist he posts in there. Not sure how much I like it...

Kevinliu's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Artifact Creatures 4 Tidehollow Sculler Creatures 4 Dark Confidant 3 Knight of the Reliquary 4 Lotus Cobra 4 Tarmogoyf Instants 4 Swords to Plowshares Sorceries 2 Duress 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Thoughtseize 3 Vindicate Basic Lands 1 Forest 1 Plains 1 Swamp	Lands 2 Bayou 1 Bojuka Bog 1 Horizon Canopy 4 Marsh Flats 1 Savannah 2 Scrubland 3 Verdant Catacombs 4 Wasteland 2 Windswept Heath Legendary Lands 1 Karakas	Sideboard: 4 Pithing Needle 1 Mindbreak Trap 3 Path to Exile 3 Umezawa's Jitte 2 Gaddock Teeg 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

It seems like it could have a better matchup against vengevine survival with all of those 1cc discard spells but then again I never tried out this build before. Although, I think removing deed, sensei's top, and mox diamond seems like poor deck designing, IMO. I mean those are some of the most important cards that actually made Dark Horizons consistent and resilient against most of the current field.

I don't miss the Mox too much in my fiddling with this. Not having a T1 Bob or Hymn, or retaking the lead on mana development if we're not on the play is felt, but with the additional 1CC disruption spells packed in here, it's not so bad.

On that note, is 10 too many? I do quite enjoy opening up with one, possibly moreso than Hymn and it's what, 2% chance of hitting both of their lands? It's good for screwing them up, and the 2-for-1 even if they Force it is quite enjoyable.
Always opening up with a disruption spell or two is good, but with Survival dead now is the speed really needed to not play Hymn as well? 4x IoK, 3-2x Seize, 2-3x Hymn, 3-4x Sculler seems more optimal to me with not requiring the first turn hit as much.

The extra bodies are nice, but cutting the 4th Knight and the Maze aren't really something I'm liking. The two together is just so potent, and that maze alone can hold back piles of damage to allow DH to play into the longer game.

Not having Top feels like a bigger mistake than dropping below four Knights. With the amount of shuffle effects played, it really wants to be in there.

If the Sculler route is taken, Pridemage falls back into consideration once again to make itself and Sculler more viable. Having a 2/2 that can't attack or block due to the popularity of other bears doesn't make Sculler a fair trade for Hymn if the card is just going to get given back. Thoughts?

I don't know, sometimes a turn 1 Dark confidant with mox can just win you games and even if they remove bob you can just drop a turn 2 Knight of the Reliquary or vindicate a land for tempo advantage. While casting 2-3 thoughtseize/duress on one turn is pretty decent as well.

Mox Diamond is key in the deck, especially against the Zoo MU. Gaining tempo on Zoo means you win. They can't keep up with your card quality 1 for 1 either, so Hymns and Verdicts really punish them.

Quote from Dzra

Mox Diamond is key in the deck, especially against the Zoo MU. Gaining tempo on Zoo means you win. They can't keep up with your card quality 1 for 1 either, so Hymns and Verdicts really punish them.

I agree with this. Hymn to tourach and Verdicts is really strong against alot of decks especially if you can cast them as early as possible.

I have been reading this forum for a while on here and the source. What do you guys think about packing NO/Pro in this kind of deck? On the source it seems that a lot of the people think this deck wont be as good as it once was, but I think adding something so powerful as NO/Pro can help this kind of deck. I think Rock players should have something that can just end the game.
I personally play a bg death cloud rock since I think that card is so powerful, but with 3 colors I think NO/Pro can make this deck pretty powerful. It is just a thought since I love rock decks, and I want them to do well. Let me know what you guys think

@the pesant
NO is definitely good, but I'd rather just endure with a Knight over "Oops, I win" with a Progen. Perhaps in a more Rock-esque build, perhaps also running Lotus Cobra and Qasali Pridemage for more sac targets. There is the Dryad Arbor option, but in my opinion, none of those are as good as Dark Confidant, and Bob may enjoy his greatness, but he's most certainly not friends with Progen's 10CC and surprise "Oops, I lose" option.

@Saaur
White grants access to Vindicate, StP, and KotR. What does blue give you? Trygon Predator, Vendilion Clique, cantrips slowing the deck down, and counters which in themselves are nice, but black already supplies the disruption so that after their hand is gone and threads neutralized, a beater can drop and end things. With blue they can play you and feed threatening looking spells to you and it knocks the available removal into black's more expensive or restrictive portion of the color pie, not to mention you're stuck with `goyfs as your primary beater, the same thing everyone is running.

Vindicate is better than Sinkhole, thus allowing a more consistent mana denial package than hoping that Stifle does something in your match.

Dark Thresh appears to be surviving just fine with the smaller beaters, but if you shift your gaze to the other side of the line, the black or blue question, Dark Horizons appears to have bested New Horizons. With the banning of Survival and fear leading to the want of disruption possibly passing, maybe New Horizons will become more popular again due to it's counters and cantrips, but it'll probably just come down to meta / your own personal color enjoyment.

Although less tempo-based than New Horizons, Dark Horizons can have its answers to combo. A lucky shot T1 Hymn, piles of 1CC disruption, Chant, and Silence are all quick options we could run, and Mindbreak Trap is still cast just as easily as any other non-blue deck casts it.

tl;dr
Bob is the best card in the deck, with Knight being a close second, thus I play Dark Horizons over other Rock/Tempo choices

~ Rith

Dredge isn't too hard. A lot of it depends on your list. ee, deed, path effects all help.

Vindicate is Win. I can't recall when I've been unhappy to topdeck that spell. I should be a four-of as an auto include unless you're lucky enough like me to topdeck Maelstrom Pulse in its place against someone's Empty the Warrens like I've done before.

As for the MU thoughts...
Yeah, we're black. We have access to every bit of graveyard removal that I know of, so just pick 2-6 for the sideboard that help best against other decks in your meta. I myself use the quad Leylines and pray method due to the majority of my meta being fish-aggro.

If you can drop a quick threat such as Crypt or Relic and get the dredge player to either force a popping of it or try to slow roll, you should hopefully have enough time to go KotR -> Bojuka Bog or drop an EE/Deed to remind them that token efforts are futile.

If you're hurting for sideboard space, even just Plague set to "Illusion" will suddenly find many a dredge deck wishing they ran more sources of mana if you can StP to clean up their chances at an Ichorid win. Completely jank, but it's doable.

Dueling Grounds will do essentially the same thing so long as you can StP or continuously chump that Troll they throw at ya.

Mox Diamond really comes in handy for such attempts, allowing all of this 3CC hate to possibly come down the turn before can hope for a first natural dredging. Even just Mox->Hymn could get you lucky and hit their land. They only play 15, so if they mulled they've probably only got one in hand, thus that's a 16%, then 20% chance you'll be taking it from them and leave them stuck drawing for more if they want to do more than dredge once per turn. Wasteland against a bad dredge pilot could give you the game as well if you can capitalize fast enough.

As for NO..
I've lost to Progen beats a few times now. It's annoying, but I've found the only real thing that can be done against NO is rendering it targetless. If it's a real problem for you, Hide/Seek it out and gain some life. Otherwise, it's time to go for broke on overkill. No creature gets to last a priority passing on the board to allow them to sac it off. Keep them off from four mana, and try to empty their hand as fast as possible while a `goyf or Knight swings in for the kill.

If Progen's got you down, it's Diabolic Edicts that are in your future for certain. Just tool up your board to kill what's popular or whatnot. Even with your U-splash, if you miss hitting the NO, you'd still be right back onto oh-gawd-there's-a-Progen-staring-at-me cleanup. White has access to more proactive removal, with Vindicate keeping their lands down and StP/PtE cleaning up any hopes of sacking off green creatures. Save a Wasteland or active Knight for Dryad Arbor if they try to go that route if keeping them off four mana doesn't become an option.

Heck, I don't think I've heard anyone else mention it in connection with this deck, but Elephant Grass will stop both right up for as long as you can pay to keep it around. If you run an Enlightened Tutor sideboard, bringing in a copy should be easy to stall for the few turns it takes your bigger critters to try and swing around Progen. Heck, I've thrown a 15/15 Terravore right up overtop of Progen for the last five points before.

Dark Horizons is a beautifully destructive deck, with many a option to tool up quite the lovely SB for whatever your fears and needs are.

I use Extirpate as my graveyard hate over Leylines. Dredge will likely bring in bounce and/or Needles. Extirpate manages to get around most anti-hate. It's great against Dreamhalls too.

As for Diabolic Edict and NO, I think the best way to handle them is just to attack their hand and mana base as best you can. Diabolic Edict rarely gets there when you need to too. If you are going to board dedicated NO hate, I'd try Tariff.

This deck definitely likes White. KotR, Vindicate, Swords, Path, Verdict, Pridemages, Elspeth, etc. All sorts of goodness!

Hey, guys, can you give me pointers on the Fish MU? Let's say I have Nelson's list from GP Columbus, what would you usually side out? My friend and I have been playtesting, I have no idea if it's because I'm having bad luck or he's just having nut draws (he drew 3 Standstills in one game, all off other Standstills -_-). I also don't get to draw Thoughtseizes or Duresses even with mulligans. I know Fish should be a favorable MU, but I'm inexperienced with this MU 'cause not everyone plays it.

Using Brad Nelson's list, I'd probably bring in Plagues and Deeds for Verdict and either Thoughtseize or Hymn (depending if you're on the play or draw). Duress is a mostly dead card against them, you want lot's of removal. They have a very weak late game compared to us.

In my own list, I dropped Plagues for Paths, and I'm also packing 2 Cold-Eyed Selkies, (as well as 2 Deeds), so I'd bring all that in.

Deck that i piloted
game 1: played against countertop that took too long and eventually was a draw... 1-1-1

game 2 & 3: picula which i both won 2-0. This deck is no match against dark horizons...

Game 4: mirrormatch, wich i lost 2-1. SDT is key in this match, remove a dark confidant as soon as posible because both will end up in topdeck mode. Creatures will get removed very soon, so when both in topdeck mode the first to play a creature has a great chance to win. Dark confidant will speed up the draws into threats or removal. and top can manipulate the draws so that you get good draws faster... And because i dont play top i was in a disadvantage and lost pretty close.

Game 5 zoo: attack the hand, and waste and vindicate the lands and you are on your way to litteraly destroy your oponent. 2-0

Top 8 i played first match again against the mirror (same person) and lost again due to the same problems as discribed above.

now im planning to play 2 vampire nighthawks instead of a gerards verdict and a maelstrom pulse just to see how it will go... also changed a savannah to a bayou...

Also gonna change some in my sideboard.

So the new deck is going to be something like this:



Also a question:

How well do you people think arrogant bloodlord would be in this deck?

Quote from ibraman

And because i dont play top i was in a disadvantage and lost pretty close.

Curious as to why no top. Seems like a pretty important piece of the deck.

Quote from Magique

Curious as to why no top. Seems like a pretty important piece of the deck.

I dont own any (just joking)

I didnt want to play top because i want all my cards to have impact on the game. the top does indeed help to get the right cards in the right moments, and reduce the damage taken from dark confidant. also the problem is that i dont know what to replace the top with in my current deck... The deck seems to do pretty good agains the other decks i played and tested against so including it only for my mirror matches... i dont know.

Quote from Dzra

Using Brad Nelson's list, I'd probably bring in Plagues and Deeds for Verdict and either Thoughtseize or Hymn (depending if you're on the play or draw). Duress is a mostly dead card against them, you want lot's of removal. They have a very weak late game compared to us.

In my own list, I dropped Plagues for Paths, and I'm also packing 2 Cold-Eyed Selkies, (as well as 2 Deeds), so I'd bring all that in.

A'ight. Thanks, man.

Quote from ibraman »

How well do you people think arrogant bloodlord would be in this deck?

You have a beater that costs 1 less and isn't as color intensive. Notice that the only creature that doesn't really do anything is Tarmogoyf, but is an exceptional threat. Both Confidant and Reliquary provide CA. It'll probably depend on your meta on how well it performs. It does go around Perish/Nature's Ruin against deck that pack such hate and isn't easily Boltable.

I can't believe that you managed to go through a bunch of rounds without Divining Top, though. *tips hat*

I think Top is one of the best cards in the deck, really it's one of the best filters ever printed. Top gets really broken with how many fetches and shuffle effects we have. Not using Top to conserve threat density is like TES cutting Brainstorm so they can run more wincons.

If during a game your Top spends a mere 1 each turn to keep surpressing two non-fetch lands and instead hands you gas, then it itself was worth more than that bit of gas it could have been earlier if you'd have had to stall out for 2-3 turns in there to catch back up. There's just too many shuffle effects not to run a pair, but three is on the safer side. I myself run two Tops and an Enlightened Tutor in place of the third to go pull out either a Deed or EE if such is needed more at the time. The mainboard E.Tutor, while not being optimal, helps with sideboarding some

Tested with tops maindeck...
Decided to go with tops they are pretty good...

To those playing around with graveyard / NO hate: Has anyone tried Sadistic Sacrament? I run it in a modified version of Eva and it's been fantastic as combo hate, removes Prog, Emrakul, it's usually game against TES/ANT, and puts major hurt on dredge, as you can take out either the dread returns or the bridges. Obviously I understand that it's not quite as good in this deck because we don't run ritual, but is it playable as a 2x in the board?

Also, in regards to dropping plague in the dredge match, I've always found it's better to try to double-plague Zombie, plague on Illusion actually makes things much worse, Narcomoeba then dies instantly, triggering all of the active bridges instead of waiting until they find a way to kill it. In Eva, most of our cards are so bad in the dredge matchup that it's worth bringing the plagues in anyway, but is that the case in Dark Horizons?

I'm building this deck now, still missing a few pieces before I can really test it out, but most of the principles seem the same when it comes to b/g boards

The biggest problem with Sadistic Sacrament that I see is that against NO decks, they'll usually have alternative wincons (or the NO may even be the alternate wincon). Against Storm, you have to reach 3 Black mana before they combo off or Duress you. It would definitely work better with Dark Ritual. Still, if you're seeing a lot of Storm, Sacrament wouldn't be bad SB since we have a whole lot of dead cards MD and coupled with all our discard it might get there.

Deeds are great against all those. EE would be good for Dredge (great for Countertop too). 1 cmc spot removal (like PtE) would be good to answer Lackys and you'll want a ton of removal for Fish. It depends what you're most afraid of.

Quote from Mythik

Merfolk seem annoying.

It is. With your meta though, Engineered Plague as a 4-of is a must. Actually, Brad Nelson's list from GP Columbus is almost spot-on. You could reduce the amount of Edicts to add Krosan Grips since it hits 3 out of 4 decks.