I think Extirpate is a great card, but I wouldn't maindeck it. Same goes with Hide // Seek. These cards ARE good, but they're dead cards in about 75% of the matchups you'll face, which is a bad thing when you're staring down merfolk, goblins, zoo, or any non-combo centric deck and you have an extirpate and hide seek in hand.
If people are so hellbent on getting an advantage over Vengevival, why not just maindeck pridemages? That's the 1 thing I haven't completely understood about this build, it completely can support the g/w costs, so why not just maindeck the enchantment haterade? This is not just good vs. vengevival, but also good vs. stax, countertop, affinity, any deck running vials, enchantress... you get the idea.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
I've not tested against Elves at all, I'm just assuming. A sweeper doesn't clean up combo-elves like a Plague can. My meta is mostly Merfolk near me, so Cataclysming them down to Mutavault, Reejery, and Vial is good, but not really enough. Kill the vial then and they're mana screwed, but without killing that too I've seen them play off from a single land just fine, if albeit a tad slowly.
Considering my recent loss of `goyfs though, I am considering testing out some finks in there instead of `vores since it's so much easier to cast and gains me some life, as well as being much more resistant to hate since the MU I've had the most trouble with is jank-Zoo with quite a bit of burn laced in. Actual burn I'm fine with since I run the oh so horrible Sanctitys in my SB. It amuses me whenever someone expects to win with Jace2.0 and has to frown while reading that. Good for combo as well, even though most can just Wish for Anarchy to deal with it, that still eats up 3RRR from their pool.
Any pointers to mark off on when it is / isn't a good time to Cataclysm? It's gotta be early enough to matter, yet not too late. Also, I rather dislike the look of Stiring Wildwood in your list. If you're going to get knocked back to one land in your primary plan, how are you ever going to activate it? I'd rather have a Maze in the MB than that so I can hold back the creature they kept. The deck just doesn't feel like Dark Horizons to me unless you have a Maze to Knight up. Is there a reason for 3 Canopies? I figure you can probably hit 5-6 mana pretty easily, but after a Cataclysm it's just a pain land while rebuilding your manabase, and before it it was either a painland or you cracked it and hope there's no Spell Pierce coming. Granted, with a KotR, you can probably win right after casting that Cataclysm, but thinking for the longer haul is something I like.
Also, since you're running Cataclysms, I'd probably give a strong suggestion to Edicts in the SB. It's cheap enough to cast soon after, maybe even same-turn if you float some mana, and it's guaranteed to take care of that Progen they got to keep.
Good point on the Pridemages, but it's weak. After tearing your hand apart with disruption and killing off your threats, a 2 CMC 3/3 won't get there as fast as a `goyf or Knight will so he'd be slipping in in the place of either disruption or removal. I guess he could sorta fit in as removal, but what do you cut from him in the list, Shrink the discard suite? You need to be dropping those T1/T2 if they're to do too much good else you probably should cut them entirely so you're not just topdecking them later game, but that heavily downpowers the potential here as you won't know for certain what they have in grip / are playing. Do you need to play around Daze? Wait for a tapout before cracking fetches to dodge Stifle? Feed them a fake-threat to bite out that FoW? I don't like that idea too much. The list feels to be standardizing itself all nice and tight. I guess you could cut the Mox for them, but that takes away some speed, `goyf food, easier Daze protection, and that T1 Hymn / T2 Knight ability. Pridemage's ability is nice, but he's definitely no Bob.
I agree on the MD`ing Extirpate though, there's no real advantage for it G1 in may MUs unless you get lucky and hit something that there was a copy of in their hand, or you go after an early fetch / wasted Dual to deplete them of mana sources. A meta call really, where I play it'd probably deal with having to deal with extra FoWs and be sided out most of the time.
@Maxeel
I love Hide//Seek. If I recall correctly, the CMC of it is 4, yes? It hurts a bit more than usual when hit by Bob, but it's a lovely way to rip out Progen or Emily for benefit. Is it good enough to forgo reacting and playing Edicts to instead remove or cut their number of targets in half? It has applications in more MUs than Edict does beyond being just another removal spell. It greatly amuses me that we can cast Hide off from a Mox to deal with something, such as a Vial or Survival.
~ Rith
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Legacy: BWG Dark Horizons UWB Esper Stoneblade GUB Lands BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH: BGWKarador, Spirit Warmage
I've not tested against Elves at all, I'm just assuming. A sweeper doesn't clean up combo-elves like a Plague can. My meta is mostly Merfolk near me, so Cataclysming them down to Mutavault, Reejery, and Vial is good, but not really enough. Kill the vial then and they're mana screwed, but without killing that too I've seen them play off from a single land just fine, if albeit a tad slowly.
Considering my recent loss of `goyfs though, I am considering testing out some finks in there instead of `vores since it's so much easier to cast and gains me some life, as well as being much more resistant to hate since the MU I've had the most trouble with is jank-Zoo with quite a bit of burn laced in. Actual burn I'm fine with since I run the oh so horrible Sanctitys in my SB. It amuses me whenever someone expects to win with Jace2.0 and has to frown while reading that. Good for combo as well, even though most can just Wish for Anarchy to deal with it, that still eats up 3RRR from their pool.
Any pointers to mark off on when it is / isn't a good time to Cataclysm? It's gotta be early enough to matter, yet not too late. Also, I rather dislike the look of Stiring Wildwood in your list. If you're going to get knocked back to one land in your primary plan, how are you ever going to activate it? I'd rather have a Maze in the MB than that so I can hold back the creature they kept. The deck just doesn't feel like Dark Horizons to me unless you have a Maze to Knight up. Is there a reason for 3 Canopies? I figure you can probably hit 5-6 mana pretty easily, but after a Cataclysm it's just a pain land while rebuilding your manabase, and before it it was either a painland or you cracked it and hope there's no Spell Pierce coming. Granted, with a KotR, you can probably win right after casting that Cataclysm, but thinking for the longer haul is something I like.
Also, since you're running Cataclysms, I'd probably give a strong suggestion to Edicts in the SB. It's cheap enough to cast soon after, maybe even same-turn if you float some mana, and it's guaranteed to take care of that Progen they got to keep.
Good point on the Pridemages, but it's weak. After tearing your hand apart with disruption and killing off your threats, a 2 CMC 3/3 won't get there as fast as a `goyf or Knight will so he'd be slipping in in the place of either disruption or removal. I guess he could sorta fit in as removal, but what do you cut from him in the list, Shrink the discard suite? You need to be dropping those T1/T2 if they're to do too much good else you probably should cut them entirely so you're not just topdecking them later game, but that heavily downpowers the potential here as you won't know for certain what they have in grip / are playing. Do you need to play around Daze? Wait for a tapout before cracking fetches to dodge Stifle? Feed them a fake-threat to bite out that FoW? I don't like that idea too much. The list feels to be standardizing itself all nice and tight. I guess you could cut the Mox for them, but that takes away some speed, `goyf food, easier Daze protection, and that T1 Hymn / T2 Knight ability. Pridemage's ability is nice, but he's definitely no Bob.
I agree on the MD`ing Extirpate though, there's no real advantage for it G1 in may MUs unless you get lucky and hit something that there was a copy of in their hand, or you go after an early fetch / wasted Dual to deplete them of mana sources. A meta call really, where I play it'd probably deal with having to deal with extra FoWs and be sided out most of the time.
@Maxeel
I love Hide//Seek. If I recall correctly, the CMC of it is 4, yes? It hurts a bit more than usual when hit by Bob, but it's a lovely way to rip out Progen or Emily for benefit. Is it good enough to forgo reacting and playing Edicts to instead remove or cut their number of targets in half? It has applications in more MUs than Edict does beyond being just another removal spell. It greatly amuses me that we can cast Hide off from a Mox to deal with something, such as a Vial or Survival.
~ Rith
I forget why I put wildwood in. I've never even actually played with it in my deck to be honest. Getting 3 horizon canopies is a good idea since it keeps you around 3-4 lands total, which is where you ideally want to be with this deck. You don't want to be dependent on Knight to tutor up the canopies, it's just a nice *addition* to that.
You mentioned using cataclysm when an opponent has a vial out. That's why I maindeck 4 Pridemages. Pridemages are great cards. I'd rather have them in here than Goyfs believe it or not. This is a deck that doesn't need to win in an incredibly quick fashion like Zoo does, so the efficiency factor isn't that big of a deal. (pridemage may as well be a 3/3 with exalted triggers, so it's not that much worse of an aggro play than Goyf is). The thing about pridemage is it wins a lot of matchups just by including it in the initial 60. Stax, vial oriented decks, affinity, enchantress, survival madness, countertop variants are all decks that hate seeing pridemages come out turn 2.
The most important thing to me when I designed my Cataclysm-Horizons build was to get almost every card in the deck to act as a 2-for 1 effect.
Outside Terravore and Swords to Plowshares, every card has a legitimate 2-for-1 effect that is good in a vacuum, but even better within the confines of the deck.
Here is what I cut out.
Hymn to Tourach: The only card I wish I could keep, but Gerard's Verdict isn't THAT much worse, and gets the job done almost as well even though it's not randomized. I'm sure it could be played in here, but it would make the manabase a little greedier than I'd prefer. Double black on turn 2 isn't that great in a deck that's mostly green/white.
Pernicious Deed: Cataclysm is a better sweeper than Deed is, so it's not necessary.
Engineered Explosives: This is the same as Deed. It's simply better.
Vindicate: This is another slow 1-for-1 that's simply trumped by playing Cataclysm, which kills 2-3 lands and an aggro horde to Vindicate's 1-for-1. It may be targeted removal, but there are very few situations in which there is 1 card I absolutely need to remove by using a vindicate. In those situations, Swords and Pridemage are better answers anyway.
Tarmogoyf: What matchups does Goyf improve by playing it? I don't mean to hate on it, but I think too many people want to rush to throw Goyf in ANY deck they possibly can. If it doesn't improve your already bad matchups, it's not worth playing. Unfortunately, Kitchen finks solves more problems than Goyf does, and isn't a bad aggro creature in it's own right. Furthermore, Finks has great synergy with Cataclysm, so it gets the nod here. I could see Goyf being played instead of Terravore, which is of course a legit idea. My only argument for Terravore is that I like evasion via trample, and it solves more post-cataclysm problems whereas vs. some decks, you'd simply be left with a goyf vs. goyf battle.
Thoughtseize: It's good vs. combo, but bad vs. any zoo/burn deck. Cabal Therapy can hit more targets, and offers just as good protection vs. almost any known combo archetype. Works well with Finks in addition to being a good pre-cataclysm play.
As for Maze, I put it in the sideboard. I only really want to see it vs. decks that can get a really big fat creature out that I have no answer to (progenitus mainly).
Now, regarding Cataclysm timing, well it just depends on a lot of factors. Think of it this way, Cataclysm = Wrath of God & Armageddon that when in combination with Terravore, Knight, Flagstones, and finks, almost gaurantees you a win vs. nearly any deck in the format (Assuming it resolves of course). You do want to have some semblance of board presence before you use it, but typically this isn't too hard to accomplish. (unless you're in a very desperate situation and need to sweep or be killed).
You generally want them to start overextending onto the battlefield. This is relatively easy, especially when using Verdict & Therapy in tandem with your own large beaters (or other spot discard effects).
So logically, the best time to drop it are always when they have a low-ish hand or a lot of threats on the board. The more land they have out, naturally the more brutal it'll be when it resolves.
woops, yeah my bad about that 1. Either way, it's only there for times in which an opponent can put a "bigger" creature into play that I can't really handle (which is rare).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
woops, yeah my bad about that 1. Either way, it's only there for times in which an opponent can put a "bigger" creature into play that I can't really handle (which is rare).
Well, as someone already explained it to me in another thread, maze gives you the opportunity to attack with your Kotr, untap it after damage resolution (still combat phase), -> block with it if necessary and use his ability in the same turn...
I pretty sure maze must stay MD
The problem I've had with a Engineered Plague is that in the past year or so it's lost much of it's use and utility against aggro.
Sliver's are non-existent. Similarly, Elves are as well. At best you name "Cat," against Zoo, in which case all you prevent is 1 damage. They can still burn your dome or trample you with big creatures. Merfolk has gained 2 new Lords since M10, so now that brings the base-minimum number of Lords in majority of Merfolk builds up to 12. If you get 2 Plagues in first 3 turns your solid, but beyond that their negligible.
The only deck E. Plague really has any affect on is Goblins, who, due to the prominence of Veng, are slowly being weeded out from the field as well.
As a black player it pains me to remove one of the cards that's been a staple in my SB for so many years, but it's time to move on and realize it just doesn't help us out in the current meta.
Dueling Ground, however, compliments the deck perfectly has it makes apt use of our Goyf/KotR, while at the same time forcing opponents (such as Veng/Merfolk) who would normally swarm us to slow down and fights us 1v.1.
I actually just heard about Dark Horizons tonight at a tourney, and have to say after doing some Gold Fishing with it that I plan to switch over. Currently I'm playing Deadguy Ale w/splash for Goyf, and have decided I like the direction that this deck takes. I've always loved the idea of Mom/Stalker/Stoneforge toolbox, but I've slowly begun to realize that they are just "safe," cards that do little to actually affect the game state. Horizons, however, makes better use of the cards it's dealt, and the Moxes especially seem like a solid acceleration (which makes me feel better since I still feel the pain of having to give up the Dark Rits when I made the switch from MBA).
Hopefully I can get the Bayou's/Moxes I need before the next big Legacy event.
The only deck we have a negative matchup against (according to this data, not trying to state facts here!) is survival. Every other DTB is a good matchup which is just nutty, Dark Horizons is a monster of a deck and it is in a great position to eat all the anti-survival decks that are sure to be all over the place at worlds.
That said, the survival matchup is very bad, which is obviously an issue. What do you all think is the best hate against either type of survival? I find extiripate is a great card against both survival decks, especially against ooze (if you were to use a tormod's crypt they can react at instant speed for the win).
What are some strategy's you all use against survival?
edit: Obvious sideboarding strategy against survival is board out hymn and gerrards verdict board in extiripate and any other anti survi hate. It sucks that survival is more or less immune to our great CA genorators, and I think it is a primary reason it is such a bad matchup for us. Either of these cards is a bomb in a normal game, it creates CA no matter what stage of the game you are in and is never a dead draw. Losing it against survival is a hurting.
Well timed Extirpate, and a mass-sweeper (Perish) is all I've needed to take out Survival, but that is with a deadguy build. So its a bit different, but not completely.
An active Jitte is also quite nice to have on your side.
What are thoughts on Leyline of the Void? Most survival decks run MD answers to it, but it may be worth it for the tempo we gain while they dig for their answer?
If we can get a tarmo or a knight big enough to chump or kill a VV then the games swings in our favor considerably.
De@d, perish? That seems really weird to have an answer that hurts our board position. Do you usually just hold any tarmos/knights when you board in perish and wait to play them until perish resolves?
As I said, I've had most my experience vs. Survival with a deadguy's build running green for Tarmo.
But I believe that the strategy can be applied in this archtype as well. Perhaps even better. This deck is less reliant on a crittical mass of creatures as one Goyf or KotR can swing for the win entirely on its own. Usually Survival will have a more explosive start than you, and they will look to keep the creatures coming because of your discard spells. If you're unlucky, you sometimes even give them "free" creatures because of the discard. Naturally they will swarm the board pretty quick. You have to remember that in these MUs you are NOT the aggressor. Play some early Bobs if you are in trouble to help you digg for answers quicker, and gather gas in your hand. Wipe the board and extirpate. or the other way around.
If they have a slow start or for some reason they DON'T swarm you. Just play a large creature and play more aggressively. But keep in mind that the roles can shift pretty fast, so I would't over extend on creatures in any case. More likely than not, you've lost a good chunk of your life-total already, so it is important that you keep the pressure up after a board-swipe with a goyf, KotR or two. And don't let them stall your guys too long.
Whatever board-reset card you use, Perish, EE or Deed, its the same. I like perish because it takes care of most of the troublesome creatures and Vengevines if you didn't manage to extirpate them before they start hitting you.
Instead of Leyline of the Void, have you considered Yxilid Jailer if you need more gear vs. Survival? In any case, I'd look to board out Hymns in this MU and replace them with Extirpates and some board control.
I still keep coming back to the question. Why isn't Qasali Pridemage maindeck material in here? It kills off Survival before it even gets going (which more or less kills survival's chances of being dominant).
It fits the curve, answers most of the deck's problems, isn't a bad aggro choice, and most of all, hurts Survival bigtime. It just seems stupid not to play Pridemage md.
I still keep coming back to the question. Why isn't Qasali Pridemage maindeck material in here?
It fits the curve, answers most of the deck's problems, isn't a bad aggro choice, and most of all, hurts Survival bigtime. It just seems stupid not to play Pridemage md.
Its a playable card for sure, but it forces you to take out some control aspects of the deck and turns it more aggro. It can be better in some situations, and it can be worse in others.
You could take out Mox Diamonds to add more critters, or you could take out the MD board-sweepers or a mix.
Its a playable card for sure, but it forces you to take out some control aspects of the deck and turns it more aggro. It can be better in some situations, and it can be worse in others.
You could take out Mox Diamonds to add more critters, or you could take out the MD board-sweepers or a mix.
It's more aggro for sure, but is that really a bad thing if it serves to better the matchup? And despite the fact that it is aggro-esque, it also has a lot of advantages with control since it takes out a counterbalance, opposing mass removal, hates out enchantress, survival, crucible, stax. I can't think of many situations I'd rather have a Mox Diamond in hand than a Pridemage. Diamond may accelerate a little bit, but since when is winning as fast as possible the best idea with this deck?
Some say getting a t1 Confidant out is huge, and while I do think that would help, is it really that different than a t2 confidant? And on top of this, if you know how to play your discard effects, you don't want to be using a Hymn or Verdict when an opponent has 7 cards in hand. You wait until they have at least 4-5 to get the maximum effect out of them.
I've been against the Mox Diamond from the start, so I'll just throw that out there, but I can't see many times in which Mox Diamond would actually *help* more than hurt, especially considering it gives us temporary card disadvantage for a slight advantage in tempo. It's a horrible topdeck too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
If you want to hate out enchantress or counterbalance, Stax etc. would playing Deed or Engineered Explosive be a better choice than a one shot creature? Or do you mean in addition to those?
Regarding Mox Diamond, I think its boils down to choice or perhaps play-style. Id does have some disadvantages (thats why its not banned). but it gives you the upperhand more often than not.
As you mentioned, T1 Bob is huge, or even T2 Vindicate on their land. More mana gives you more options and in turn makes you less predictable.
If you took out Mox, you'd probably not notice a very huge difference, but perhaps the question is when would we rather have a creature in its place? How often? Which MUs gets worse or better?
Will our worst MUs be worse without Mox? Will the creature improve our worst MUs or just improve on already good ones? etc.
i tried orims chant as a sideboard option against suvival madness... and it kinda works, either it keeps your opponent from casting his second creature to get back vengevines (discard rootwalla to search for another rootwalla to revive vengevine... in response orims chant with kicker) or keep them from attacking for a turn, it is also good against storm decks...
Here's the list I've been toying with, played it against Stax, Mono-U control, Sneaky-Tell, and Ant. It's got good matchups against those, gonna pit it against Survival on Sunday:
goyfs are too good to be dropped. maybe drop the tops for the pridemages? if you replace thoughtseize with inquisition you don't stand to lose much from Bob anyway.
terravore kinda competes with KotR in the 3 drop slot, as well as with pernicious deed and vindicate/maelstrom pulse. KotR in that respect is a bit better since you can use it to tutor for lands like maze of ith and bojuka bog for the extra utility.
Interesting choice on dropping Hymn and maxing out on Gerard's Verdict. Any particular reason for the switch?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
i think it was chosen over hymn because of the color requirements are more easily matched
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
I'm thinking about investing in this deck. Do you guys think it will lose its effectiveness if/when survival gets banned(speculation, I know), and if so, hold off on investing for the moment?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If people are so hellbent on getting an advantage over Vengevival, why not just maindeck pridemages? That's the 1 thing I haven't completely understood about this build, it completely can support the g/w costs, so why not just maindeck the enchantment haterade? This is not just good vs. vengevival, but also good vs. stax, countertop, affinity, any deck running vials, enchantress... you get the idea.
I've not tested against Elves at all, I'm just assuming. A sweeper doesn't clean up combo-elves like a Plague can. My meta is mostly Merfolk near me, so Cataclysming them down to Mutavault, Reejery, and Vial is good, but not really enough. Kill the vial then and they're mana screwed, but without killing that too I've seen them play off from a single land just fine, if albeit a tad slowly.
Considering my recent loss of `goyfs though, I am considering testing out some finks in there instead of `vores since it's so much easier to cast and gains me some life, as well as being much more resistant to hate since the MU I've had the most trouble with is jank-Zoo with quite a bit of burn laced in. Actual burn I'm fine with since I run the oh so horrible Sanctitys in my SB. It amuses me whenever someone expects to win with Jace2.0 and has to frown while reading that. Good for combo as well, even though most can just Wish for Anarchy to deal with it, that still eats up 3RRR from their pool.
Any pointers to mark off on when it is / isn't a good time to Cataclysm? It's gotta be early enough to matter, yet not too late. Also, I rather dislike the look of Stiring Wildwood in your list. If you're going to get knocked back to one land in your primary plan, how are you ever going to activate it? I'd rather have a Maze in the MB than that so I can hold back the creature they kept. The deck just doesn't feel like Dark Horizons to me unless you have a Maze to Knight up. Is there a reason for 3 Canopies? I figure you can probably hit 5-6 mana pretty easily, but after a Cataclysm it's just a pain land while rebuilding your manabase, and before it it was either a painland or you cracked it and hope there's no Spell Pierce coming. Granted, with a KotR, you can probably win right after casting that Cataclysm, but thinking for the longer haul is something I like.
Also, since you're running Cataclysms, I'd probably give a strong suggestion to Edicts in the SB. It's cheap enough to cast soon after, maybe even same-turn if you float some mana, and it's guaranteed to take care of that Progen they got to keep.
Good point on the Pridemages, but it's weak. After tearing your hand apart with disruption and killing off your threats, a 2 CMC 3/3 won't get there as fast as a `goyf or Knight will so he'd be slipping in in the place of either disruption or removal. I guess he could sorta fit in as removal, but what do you cut from him in the list, Shrink the discard suite? You need to be dropping those T1/T2 if they're to do too much good else you probably should cut them entirely so you're not just topdecking them later game, but that heavily downpowers the potential here as you won't know for certain what they have in grip / are playing. Do you need to play around Daze? Wait for a tapout before cracking fetches to dodge Stifle? Feed them a fake-threat to bite out that FoW? I don't like that idea too much. The list feels to be standardizing itself all nice and tight. I guess you could cut the Mox for them, but that takes away some speed, `goyf food, easier Daze protection, and that T1 Hymn / T2 Knight ability. Pridemage's ability is nice, but he's definitely no Bob.
I agree on the MD`ing Extirpate though, there's no real advantage for it G1 in may MUs unless you get lucky and hit something that there was a copy of in their hand, or you go after an early fetch / wasted Dual to deplete them of mana sources. A meta call really, where I play it'd probably deal with having to deal with extra FoWs and be sided out most of the time.
@Maxeel
I love Hide//Seek. If I recall correctly, the CMC of it is 4, yes? It hurts a bit more than usual when hit by Bob, but it's a lovely way to rip out Progen or Emily for benefit. Is it good enough to forgo reacting and playing Edicts to instead remove or cut their number of targets in half? It has applications in more MUs than Edict does beyond being just another removal spell. It greatly amuses me that we can cast Hide off from a Mox to deal with something, such as a Vial or Survival.
~ Rith
BWG Dark Horizons
UWB Esper Stoneblade
GUB Lands
BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH:
BGW Karador, Spirit Warmage
I forget why I put wildwood in. I've never even actually played with it in my deck to be honest. Getting 3 horizon canopies is a good idea since it keeps you around 3-4 lands total, which is where you ideally want to be with this deck. You don't want to be dependent on Knight to tutor up the canopies, it's just a nice *addition* to that.
You mentioned using cataclysm when an opponent has a vial out. That's why I maindeck 4 Pridemages. Pridemages are great cards. I'd rather have them in here than Goyfs believe it or not. This is a deck that doesn't need to win in an incredibly quick fashion like Zoo does, so the efficiency factor isn't that big of a deal. (pridemage may as well be a 3/3 with exalted triggers, so it's not that much worse of an aggro play than Goyf is). The thing about pridemage is it wins a lot of matchups just by including it in the initial 60. Stax, vial oriented decks, affinity, enchantress, survival madness, countertop variants are all decks that hate seeing pridemages come out turn 2.
The most important thing to me when I designed my Cataclysm-Horizons build was to get almost every card in the deck to act as a 2-for 1 effect.
Outside Terravore and Swords to Plowshares, every card has a legitimate 2-for-1 effect that is good in a vacuum, but even better within the confines of the deck.
Here is what I cut out.
Hymn to Tourach: The only card I wish I could keep, but Gerard's Verdict isn't THAT much worse, and gets the job done almost as well even though it's not randomized. I'm sure it could be played in here, but it would make the manabase a little greedier than I'd prefer. Double black on turn 2 isn't that great in a deck that's mostly green/white.
Pernicious Deed: Cataclysm is a better sweeper than Deed is, so it's not necessary.
Engineered Explosives: This is the same as Deed. It's simply better.
Vindicate: This is another slow 1-for-1 that's simply trumped by playing Cataclysm, which kills 2-3 lands and an aggro horde to Vindicate's 1-for-1. It may be targeted removal, but there are very few situations in which there is 1 card I absolutely need to remove by using a vindicate. In those situations, Swords and Pridemage are better answers anyway.
Tarmogoyf: What matchups does Goyf improve by playing it? I don't mean to hate on it, but I think too many people want to rush to throw Goyf in ANY deck they possibly can. If it doesn't improve your already bad matchups, it's not worth playing. Unfortunately, Kitchen finks solves more problems than Goyf does, and isn't a bad aggro creature in it's own right. Furthermore, Finks has great synergy with Cataclysm, so it gets the nod here. I could see Goyf being played instead of Terravore, which is of course a legit idea. My only argument for Terravore is that I like evasion via trample, and it solves more post-cataclysm problems whereas vs. some decks, you'd simply be left with a goyf vs. goyf battle.
Thoughtseize: It's good vs. combo, but bad vs. any zoo/burn deck. Cabal Therapy can hit more targets, and offers just as good protection vs. almost any known combo archetype. Works well with Finks in addition to being a good pre-cataclysm play.
As for Maze, I put it in the sideboard. I only really want to see it vs. decks that can get a really big fat creature out that I have no answer to (progenitus mainly).
Now, regarding Cataclysm timing, well it just depends on a lot of factors. Think of it this way, Cataclysm = Wrath of God & Armageddon that when in combination with Terravore, Knight, Flagstones, and finks, almost gaurantees you a win vs. nearly any deck in the format (Assuming it resolves of course). You do want to have some semblance of board presence before you use it, but typically this isn't too hard to accomplish. (unless you're in a very desperate situation and need to sweep or be killed).
You generally want them to start overextending onto the battlefield. This is relatively easy, especially when using Verdict & Therapy in tandem with your own large beaters (or other spot discard effects).
So logically, the best time to drop it are always when they have a low-ish hand or a lot of threats on the board. The more land they have out, naturally the more brutal it'll be when it resolves.
woops, yeah my bad about that 1. Either way, it's only there for times in which an opponent can put a "bigger" creature into play that I can't really handle (which is rare).
Well, as someone already explained it to me in another thread, maze gives you the opportunity to attack with your Kotr, untap it after damage resolution (still combat phase), -> block with it if necessary and use his ability in the same turn...
I pretty sure maze must stay MD
:symb::symg::symw:Dark Horizon:symw::symg::symb:
:symr::symg::symw:Zoo:symw::symg::symr:
Sliver's are non-existent. Similarly, Elves are as well. At best you name "Cat," against Zoo, in which case all you prevent is 1 damage. They can still burn your dome or trample you with big creatures. Merfolk has gained 2 new Lords since M10, so now that brings the base-minimum number of Lords in majority of Merfolk builds up to 12. If you get 2 Plagues in first 3 turns your solid, but beyond that their negligible.
The only deck E. Plague really has any affect on is Goblins, who, due to the prominence of Veng, are slowly being weeded out from the field as well.
As a black player it pains me to remove one of the cards that's been a staple in my SB for so many years, but it's time to move on and realize it just doesn't help us out in the current meta.
Dueling Ground, however, compliments the deck perfectly has it makes apt use of our Goyf/KotR, while at the same time forcing opponents (such as Veng/Merfolk) who would normally swarm us to slow down and fights us 1v.1.
I actually just heard about Dark Horizons tonight at a tourney, and have to say after doing some Gold Fishing with it that I plan to switch over. Currently I'm playing Deadguy Ale w/splash for Goyf, and have decided I like the direction that this deck takes. I've always loved the idea of Mom/Stalker/Stoneforge toolbox, but I've slowly begun to realize that they are just "safe," cards that do little to actually affect the game state. Horizons, however, makes better use of the cards it's dealt, and the Moxes especially seem like a solid acceleration (which makes me feel better since I still feel the pain of having to give up the Dark Rits when I made the switch from MBA).
Hopefully I can get the Bayou's/Moxes I need before the next big Legacy event.
Forlorn Egoist
Legacy
Deadguy Ale
Dragon Stompy
Enchantress
EDH
Rubinia Soulsinger
Casual
Fluctuator
Sneak Attack
Currently Building
Show and Tell
Im looking for some good sideboard options for my deck:
1x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
3x Marsh flats
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Mox Diamond
1x Engineered explosives
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Gerards Verdict
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Vindicate
3x Swords to plowshares
2x Diabolic edict
The most people will play one of those decks:
Goblins
Merfolk
Zoo
Storm combo
vengevine
Countertop
For goblins and merfolk im thinking about 4x engineered plague
Vengevine decks might have problems with extirpates
Krosan grip for the decks that run countertop
Ethersworn canonist for storm
but what other possibilities are there to be sideboarded? What would you guys use for matchups like these?
Help will be very appreciated...
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Non-Basic Land: 21
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Artifact: 6
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
Enchantment: 1
1 Pernicious Deed
Instant: 6
4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sorcery: 12
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt (Bojuka Bog)
D3@D
Shamlessly stolen from This Article :
The only deck we have a negative matchup against (according to this data, not trying to state facts here!) is survival. Every other DTB is a good matchup which is just nutty, Dark Horizons is a monster of a deck and it is in a great position to eat all the anti-survival decks that are sure to be all over the place at worlds.
That said, the survival matchup is very bad, which is obviously an issue. What do you all think is the best hate against either type of survival? I find extiripate is a great card against both survival decks, especially against ooze (if you were to use a tormod's crypt they can react at instant speed for the win).
What are some strategy's you all use against survival?
edit: Obvious sideboarding strategy against survival is board out hymn and gerrards verdict board in extiripate and any other anti survi hate. It sucks that survival is more or less immune to our great CA genorators, and I think it is a primary reason it is such a bad matchup for us. Either of these cards is a bomb in a normal game, it creates CA no matter what stage of the game you are in and is never a dead draw. Losing it against survival is a hurting.
An active Jitte is also quite nice to have on your side.
What are thoughts on Leyline of the Void? Most survival decks run MD answers to it, but it may be worth it for the tempo we gain while they dig for their answer?
If we can get a tarmo or a knight big enough to chump or kill a VV then the games swings in our favor considerably.
De@d, perish? That seems really weird to have an answer that hurts our board position. Do you usually just hold any tarmos/knights when you board in perish and wait to play them until perish resolves?
But I believe that the strategy can be applied in this archtype as well. Perhaps even better. This deck is less reliant on a crittical mass of creatures as one Goyf or KotR can swing for the win entirely on its own. Usually Survival will have a more explosive start than you, and they will look to keep the creatures coming because of your discard spells. If you're unlucky, you sometimes even give them "free" creatures because of the discard. Naturally they will swarm the board pretty quick. You have to remember that in these MUs you are NOT the aggressor. Play some early Bobs if you are in trouble to help you digg for answers quicker, and gather gas in your hand. Wipe the board and extirpate. or the other way around.
If they have a slow start or for some reason they DON'T swarm you. Just play a large creature and play more aggressively. But keep in mind that the roles can shift pretty fast, so I would't over extend on creatures in any case. More likely than not, you've lost a good chunk of your life-total already, so it is important that you keep the pressure up after a board-swipe with a goyf, KotR or two. And don't let them stall your guys too long.
Whatever board-reset card you use, Perish, EE or Deed, its the same. I like perish because it takes care of most of the troublesome creatures and Vengevines if you didn't manage to extirpate them before they start hitting you.
Instead of Leyline of the Void, have you considered Yxilid Jailer if you need more gear vs. Survival? In any case, I'd look to board out Hymns in this MU and replace them with Extirpates and some board control.
It fits the curve, answers most of the deck's problems, isn't a bad aggro choice, and most of all, hurts Survival bigtime. It just seems stupid not to play Pridemage md.
Its a playable card for sure, but it forces you to take out some control aspects of the deck and turns it more aggro. It can be better in some situations, and it can be worse in others.
You could take out Mox Diamonds to add more critters, or you could take out the MD board-sweepers or a mix.
It's more aggro for sure, but is that really a bad thing if it serves to better the matchup? And despite the fact that it is aggro-esque, it also has a lot of advantages with control since it takes out a counterbalance, opposing mass removal, hates out enchantress, survival, crucible, stax. I can't think of many situations I'd rather have a Mox Diamond in hand than a Pridemage. Diamond may accelerate a little bit, but since when is winning as fast as possible the best idea with this deck?
Some say getting a t1 Confidant out is huge, and while I do think that would help, is it really that different than a t2 confidant? And on top of this, if you know how to play your discard effects, you don't want to be using a Hymn or Verdict when an opponent has 7 cards in hand. You wait until they have at least 4-5 to get the maximum effect out of them.
I've been against the Mox Diamond from the start, so I'll just throw that out there, but I can't see many times in which Mox Diamond would actually *help* more than hurt, especially considering it gives us temporary card disadvantage for a slight advantage in tempo. It's a horrible topdeck too.
Regarding Mox Diamond, I think its boils down to choice or perhaps play-style. Id does have some disadvantages (thats why its not banned). but it gives you the upperhand more often than not.
As you mentioned, T1 Bob is huge, or even T2 Vindicate on their land. More mana gives you more options and in turn makes you less predictable.
If you took out Mox, you'd probably not notice a very huge difference, but perhaps the question is when would we rather have a creature in its place? How often? Which MUs gets worse or better?
Will our worst MUs be worse without Mox? Will the creature improve our worst MUs or just improve on already good ones? etc.
definiately a sideboard card if you ask me
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Dark Confidant
Sorceries
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gerrard's Verdict
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Enchantments
1 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Extirpate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Duress
The only changes I've considered making are swapping out Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek and dropping some Tarmagoyfs for Qasali Pridemage.
this is what i'm currently running:
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Artifacts/Enchantments
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Perish
3 Krosan Grip
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU