"Dark Horizons," or GWB Rock, is a metagame deck that feeds on the current survival meta. It is similar to other Rock Decks in that it uses extremely efficient creatures with the support of some of the best removal in the format. How Dark Horizons differs, however, is that it is more based on tempo and denial of opponents recourses (A similar strategy to the GUW New Horizons deck). If you are looking for traditional rock please click HERE to go to that discussion thread.
The core of this deck is really not to be tampered with. That said, there are certainly cards that can be moved around. Some variations I have seen have had no mox diamond and 4 Gerrard's verdict and some with 4 Moxes and 3 engineered explosives. The land toolbox varies between each deck, but I find that having both maze and karakas can be a surprise answer to the very few cards we cant answer with spells. There will be a card by card analysis in this OP later on.
Sideboard options:
Other than the SB provided above, we have many other options. Aven Mindcensor: has been seen very frequently, and it is a fantastic option to board in against survival. To boot, it also has evasion which non of our other beaters do. Engineered Explosives Can be played if you are running with moxes. It is a difficult decision to choose if you want Pernicious Deed or EE, I see most decks run Deed though. Bojuka Bog: This card actually sees MD play in some builds. All in all I would say Karakas is more useful for a G1 game, so it got the spot over Bog. Depending on your meta, bog could be an all star.
I have some experience with the deck, as I top8ed a few tournaments with it right after GP:Columbus.
First of all, it's not all as good as the OP claims vs Survival. It's faring more than ok against GU survival with vengevine, but Loyal Retainer survival and Necrotic Ooze pose a threath. That can't be neglected.
It does, however, beat soundly merfolk and zoo, as well as most control decks without the counter-top.
The Goblins matchup is disfavorable. The TES matchup is really bad.
Pernicious Deed is a brilliant card, please don't drop them for a phony mox diamond argument. You are likely to lose a few cards to a Deed anyway, but you wreck your opponent's board position and lock them out of the game.
The point is that your discard suite pushes players to overextended, and your removal suite takes care of that right after.
Vidicate is indeed better than Maelstrom Pulse in the fact that with an active night you can pull 4 wastelands in a row, forcing your opponents to get basics. If you vindicate them, they're screwed.
One of the deck's primary skill to master is knowing when to use knight to hit and when to use him for tricks. I like to use an active knight to block virtually 2 creatures (block, activate, get maze, maze dude) and then use it offensively every turn after (attack, maze knight after damage, use ability later).
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I've done some playtests with the OP's decklist and've tested it against NO Elves, Burn and Zoo
Srsly, that list always worked completely reversed from what i wanted it to play. When i needed lands, it didn't came. When I needed Creatures, it didn't came. When i needed removals, it didn't came too. Maybe it was just bad luck but it happaned.
I've been thinking on exchanging Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek, as it just doesn't grap a few cards from the format and from all of those the only one who seems relevant to me is Force of Will, the life loss from thoughtseize made a lot of difference against Burn and Zoo.
Too bad you had bad luck with the deck. It's real good though. I get bad luck when I play decks with standstill. Dunno why. Maybe I suck.
Anyway, I play the inquisition in pox as a 3/3 split witht thoughtseize, and it's good. I wouldn't favor it though. The aggro matchup is good enough that the lifeloss is no significant.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
The deck is good in the meta because of the efficient beaters, and the effective sideboard cards we're able to run coupled with tons of answers to everything in the format. I've gotten the ball rolling with discussions over on mtgthesource, and when I get some time, I'll post some more on here about deck development (I'm also finishing up the Rock Primer, it's about 7 typed pages so far :P)
-Matt
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I posted this in the GWB rock thread, but i'm not sure if it would be a better fit in here since it's based off the Horizons style build. Mods, please delete one of these posts if you feel necessary, but I wasn't sure which post would be the proper post since this deck is similar and different from both builds.
In any case, i've been developing this, it's a horizons build that uses Cataclysm as a 1-shot game winner.
The basic idea here is that Cataclysm takes place of Pernicious Deed as the catch-all sweeper. The only difference of course is that it leaves you in a better position than the opponent and has a greater "you're screwed" factor when it blows up their lands.
This brings the deck focus to more of a White/Green shell, so cutting out double black becomes important.
Other advantages to cataclysm is that it makes playing Kitchen finks even better than normal. This destroys the Zoo & Burn matchups, and makes it hard on other decks such as the gate, that try to make us sacrifice our creatures instead of straight up removing them using swords.
Pridemage is a must-have in here. Dropping a Cataclysm without destroying an opponent's Vial or Moat isn't the best idea. It's a great aggro creature anyway, and if played before standstill, it'll really hurt Blue decks such as Fish and Landstill.
The *main* drawback here is that Gerard's Verdict gets played as a 4-of instead of Hymn. This isn't perfectly ideal, but it's still good enough to accomplish what we need it to.. which is forcing an opponent to overextend after having a low amount of cards in hand.
Cabal Therapy is always good, but gets better as you'll be saccing your creatures anyway to Cataclysm. Forcing a landstill player to get rid of their standstill is crucial, and it can put a big dent in combo player's plans as well. Therapy also prevents an opponent from playing a swords right after you drop a cataclysm, which would be a disadvantageous play on our part.
From the sideboard, extirpate, canonist, Leyline, and Krosan Grip are all valuable hatebears vs. just about all decks that are running around right now.
This list has played out really well for now. Cataclysm even helps out vs. Storm Combo decks since they typically need more than just 1 land to go off, and you can kill off their entire landbase via Vindicate, Wasteland, Cataclysm, and Pridemage (for LED's, petals, etc).
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I've been playing Dark Horizons since I first saw Brad Nelson's decklist and I love it. It is a very versatile deck with many different universal options to deal with every permanent out there. As many others on this thread have mentioned, the key word in describing this deck is EFFICIENCY. Every card in the deck is capable of generating either card or tempo advantage and sometimes both. The deck has good matchups against aggro decks and hybrid aggro-control, favorable matchups against Control without Counterbalance, difficult but certainly not unwinnable matchups with Countertop control, and negative matchups against Goblins (too fast and furious) and Combo (same, but sometimes possible to disrupt/delay if on the play). Let's look at the core of the deck - this is not going to be a full primer but just my thoughts after playing with it so long:
This part of the deck is not customizable - it is what it is. These three creatures represent arguably the single best ones ever printed for competitive play in their respective colors. At the very least they are very much in the discussion. Dark Confidant allows the deck to refill and reload threats and answers while doubling as Shock every turn if need be, or an early blocker under pressure. His synergy with Top is ridiculous, and with a typical mana base of 23 land/3 Mox Diamond there are 26 zero CMC cards in the deck to keep his damage to you low even without and active SDT. Typically your discard will cripple your opponent's hand early and get them topdecking if you are ahead or slow them down if you are behind, and then Bob will come down and draw you 2-for-1 to win the game with card advantage and large threats. Speaking of those large threats, both Goyf and KotR are typically 4+ power whenever they are on the board. I don't know how much discussion I need to waste on the raw power of Tarmogoyf, so moving on...Knight of the Reliquary is amazing in a deck with 8 fetches, 4 Wastelands, 3x Mox Diamond and a Horizon Canopy. Sometimes you'll have first turn fetch/Diamond, second turn fetch into KotR and suddenly you have a 5/5 on the board. As XwT mentioned in his post earlier, KotR is extremely useful for tricks as well, tutoring up Maze, Karakas, Canopy, or in other versions Bojuka Bog/Sejiri Steppe/Stirring Wildwood and just winning the game as a result.
Although Vader mentioned he has seen versions without Mox Diamond, I have not. All the tournament level builds run the same package of 3x SDT and 3x Mox. I don't see why you would change that at all as it seems to be optimal in my opinion. I actually think Mox Diamond is a key card in the deck as it accelerates you into massive tempo gains from discard/early creatures/Vindicate AND gets lands into the graveyard - which KotR and Tarmogoyf love. Occasionally you will play first turn Goyf at a 1/2, second turn discard spell and depending on what you hit, start swinging for 3 or 4 immediately. First turn Hymn is nasty, first turn Bob is scary for control especially - you get the picture. SDT is one of those cards that just makes life better for you when it's out, as we all know. Max copies are not needed - 3 is just fine, you seem them often enough and with the fetch reshuffles/Bob the synergy really really hurts an opponent as you can find answers on command. Engineered Explosives are great and precise but some builds prefer Pernicious Deed or a split of Explosives/Deed (more to come on that).
Again, not up for debate. It kills things dead, has done so forever, is simply the best...better than all the rest. The only thing I can add in is this deck StP can be extremely useful lifegain in a pinch if need be, especially in Thoughtseize-heavy versions of the deck.
I have seen a few versions with 3x Vindicate but none that run less than a full complement of Hymns. It is the most devastating discard spell ever excepting Mind Twist, and a first turn targeted discard spell followed by Hymn is brutal. Some mentioned Maelstrom Pulse in relation to Vindicate - in the end, Maelstrom Pulse - while obviously an awesome card worthy of comparison - is simply not as relevant to the Legacy metagame where there a few multiple target knockouts to be had. I used to run a 3/1 split for Iona naming White but that was because a local guy always played Reanimator. In nearly every other matchup I was wishing the Pulse was another Vindicate. The ability to hit lands is key as this deck can pursue an aggressive mana denial strategy backed by discard if it wants to. The more Vindicates the better IMHO. As far as the remaining slots, I strongly favor a split of 3x IoK/1x TS/1x GV but this is definitely debatable. I've found in hyper aggro matchups that the life loss from the fetches/Bob/TS really adds up, and Verdict/StP help but aren't enough. IoK is generally just as good and doesn't ping you which is why I prefer it. Verdict can function as lifegain as I just mentioned, or Hymns 5 and 6 if need be and it gives your opponent hard choices to make very often.
Getting back to the Deed/EE question, I like a 1/1 split. Both are clearly amazing cards than can generate enormous advantage. The reason I like a split is because sometimes you want to get an artifact in the yard to pump Goyf and a maindeck EE give you that option naturally along with being a precision cutting cool. The same is true for Deed and getting enchantments in the yard, of course, and it is more like a chainsaw. This is really up to you and your meta.
2x Whatever you like (usually 1x Karakas and 1x Horizon Canopy but also sometimes 1x Bojuka Bog, Sejiri Steppe, Kor Haven, Stirring Wildwood)
23 lands seems to be the right number. Since Maze doesn't produce land, you actually have 25 mana sources and you don't need much to operate. Eight fetches and 5 duals seems optimal. I run 3x Scrubland and 2x Bayou, I have seen some that do it the other way or add a Savannah. Really depends on your ratio of Green to White in the final mix and what your wild card slot(s) are. 4x Wasteland...yeah. It has the added benefit of growing KotRs. Maze, the same, what can you say about the best defensive land ever by a wide margin? The two remaining slots are up to you to play with - most run Horizon Canopy, I like Bojuka Bog as well but Karakas is equally favored in top level decks. In a Survival-heavy meta like this I think the Bog is the right call, tutoring it up with Veggy's triggers on the stack is like an Extirpate maindeck.
I won't talk about sideboard/matchup guide in this post as I've already rambled enough and want to hear what others have to say about this fantastic and fun deck, so I'll leave you with my current decklist + board:
My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Deed is slower, but covers more bases. EE is better in Aggro matchups. They both have their uses.
Edit: Also, those 4x Engineered Plague should be 4x Dueling Grounds. Once you discover Dueling Grounds, you never go back (unless you play both). It helps in more matchups where it counts, such as: Vengevine, Merfolk, Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Zoo, etc.
-Matt
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I was wondering when Dark Horizons would get it's own primer. I've been playing it smalltime locally in paper for a couple months now, and I have to say that atleast in my experience, IoK >> Thoughtseize. Maybe in a more developed metagame the seize wins out, but the only cards I've found I can't grab with it are Ranger of Eos (jank/budget Naya-Zoo/Excalibur), Jace 2.0, and FoW. If they have a FoW and didn't pitch it to keep their hand hidden, I just remember to either leave them an unhappy choice if they do want to use it or be back for it next turn with a Hymn / Verdict before risking something more important like a Knight.
As is I've already had too many games where I've Verdict`d myself for six life using extra lands drawn off from Bob to power up Knight and `vore. I'd rather not add to the damage myself unneededly with Thoughtsieze.
Due to only having a pair, I've been running 2 Vindicate, 2 Maelstrom Pulse. While it's noticeably worse due to not being able to hit a land, I've never been unhappy to see it in anything but game one of a burn match up. I know it's low odds, but I'd consider keeping atleast one in just because I've had it game one off a Mox to turn 2 wipe EtW as well as I've killed atleast two Lords with it every time I've resolved it against Merfolk. Iona on White may stop StP / Vindicate but has nothing against Pulse as well.
I quite like your idea cbus05, but the list seems too generic Rock-ish off from the Cataclysm. The same general get them to overextend-into-doom plan applies, but the smaller critters like Hierarch just seem to be inefficient if the goal is to sweep them off, even if you are left in the better board position afterwards.
Nice breakdown, Vik. You're right on the creature base there. Due to budget, I've been running a pair of Terravore in place of two `goyfs since I have them left over from New Horizons, and that difference between 1GG and 1G has been painfully felt. They might easily outclass `goyf in a turn or two, but he really makes me wish I owned a 3rd Bayou.
Have you considered Enlightened Tutor? I know it's mostly just cute, but I've been running one in place of my 3rd Top. If I need a top, it costs me a skipped draw which Bob makes up for. Otherwise, it drags up Deed or EE in my mostly aggro meta as makes sideboarding a little easier.
Wow, Dueling Grounds just seems so much better now that you point that out, especially once you Knight up a Maze. Granted, you can't do neat things with it like you can with setting Plague onto Human (Bob, Mom, Mangara, Hierarch, etc) but in the end it keeps you alive as long as they don't find a way to remove it.
Has anyone tried an Elspeth or two in here? I've seen her pop up in a Deadguy Ale build or two which this almost seems to function very similar to. She holds off aggro a bit and makes Bob much more lethal than a mere shock, not to mention flying pumped goyf pwns regular goyf in a race.
Thanks for the comments Rith-Shadowbane. I obviously agree with you 100% on IoK vs. Thoughtseize, and I tend to do the same thing against blue. I love TS but in this deck I like to keep my lifeloss at a minimum and for the most part excepting what you mentioned, it functions exactly the same. Also let's you run one less Verdict and not miss the second one.
As far as Pulse/Vindicate, as I said I had a 3/1 split but I don't think I need it. Killing multiple Lords and such is neat but killing a land is VERY crucial in Legacy, where the lands are big threats too and mana usage is a tight as can be. I suppose this is also meta dependent but I don't think I would go less than 3 Vindicate. None of the successful tournament builds run Pulse, although Scott Collet's 15th place deck at SCG Boston dropped to 3 Vindicates, with a discard suite of 4x Hymn, 2x Verdict, 3x IoK and 2x Thoughtseize. He also ran 2x Explosives and added a land.
I guess it's really meta dependent and depends on how much you fear Iona and/or Empty the Warrens. In my local meta we have a lot of control decks and midrange aggro/Survival/Zoo but not a lot of Merfolk or ANT. Also the one dude playing Re-animator switched to White Stax, which the Pulse sucks against but Vindicate can cripple by knocking out an early Ancient Tomb and leaving them land screwed and unable to drop Crucible. That said, I do like having one Pulse in the 75 somewhere, maybe I will make room for it in the SB. After I change Engineered Plagues to Dueling Grounds, of course!
It's not like I think you have 90 bucks laying around, but I would go hard after two more Goyfs. Terravore doesn't work nearly as well IMHO in this particular style of deck. He might be bigger sometimes but you said it yourself, the 3 CMC/double Green requirement is not so easy for this deck to consistently produce.
I haven't tried Tutor in this deck myself, but if you are low on Tops I could see where it might work. But I don't feel it is needed - it's the kind of card you want 3-4 of if you run it at all. Personally I'd rather have the 3rd Top every time. And if you need to find Explosives/Deed ASAP, having a one-of Tutor and wasting a turn isn't going to save you either. What is your Deed/EE mix? If you run two in total, you should be fine regardless of the specific combination you use.
I haven't tested Elspeth yet because I...lost one (D'oh!) and just replaced it. I know Dzra has a list he posted here somewhere with an Elspeth main and I have seen a few builds that run her. Seems like a good idea, I just don't know what to cut!
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I'm not trying to make you all jump over to the Source, but we've had some good conversations over these about most of this. If you're interested, it's worth a read. I 'll try and bring some of it over here via ctrl+c.
-Matt
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I quite like your idea cbus05, but the list seems too generic Rock-ish off from the Cataclysm. The same general get them to overextend-into-doom plan applies, but the smaller critters like Hierarch just seem to be inefficient if the goal is to sweep them off, even if you are left in the better board position afterwards.
~ Rith
Well, i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to improve it. The Cataclysm-list definitely would need development, of which i've only done a little. I think Cataclysm has a LOT of benefits however, and it instantly becomes a really explosive play.
Look at it this way, in normal dark horizons, we need a full set of wastelands, deeds, and vindicates to screw over an opponent's mana base and serve as boardsweep.
Why play a set of 5-10 cards when you can successfully achieve all of what those card's goals are with a 1 shot 4 mana sorcery? Cataclysm destroys lands, clears out their board, and pumps your knights/terravores all at the same time. It's simply about getting more bang for your buck, which equates to better overall card advantage.
My thoughts with Hierarch were that I love early game acceleration, and it gives us an advantage over opponents who simultaneously run land destruction (except for maybe pox). I know Mox Diamond may be a little more explosive at the start, but it's pretty hard to recover from it when an opponent dazes it, and I just don't like the risk/reward involved there.
Hierarch breaks aggro vs. aggro locks in making your creatures more powerful too, which is small, but when you add in pridemage for an additional exalted buffer, the aggro damage adds up.
There are a few cards i'm on the fence about, most of which I'm unsure of is Cabal Therapy. It's good, but i'm not sure whether simply playing IOK or Thoughtseize would be better.
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Normally however your threats are bigger than Vengevine. If you have a 5/5 or better KotR and a Maze in play already, there is no way you are going to lose to Vengevine Survival if Dueling Grounds is in play. Either they block and slow lose creatures, they don't and take 5 to the face/four turn clock, and whenever they swing you just Maze their creature.
It's not freezing the game at all, you will have a massive advantage with a single KotR or 4/5 or better Tarmogoyf.
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Normally however your threats are bigger than Vengevine. If you have a 5/5 or better KotR and a Maze in play already, there is no way you are going to lose to Vengevine Survival if Dueling Grounds is in play. Either they block and slow lose creatures, they don't and take 5 to the face/four turn clock, and whenever they swing you just Maze their creature.
It's not freezing the game at all, you will have a massive advantage with a single KotR or 4/5 or better Tarmogoyf.
Dueling grounds is decent, but it is good against only a small portion of decks, and bad against MANY other decks.
Just off the top of my head, it's good vs. Goblins, *maybe* zoo, elves (not including NO version, which is most of elves), and that's about it.
Zoo will likely have enough removal to deal with all your creatures, or they'll simply pridemage the enchantment, while Elves will simply use a natural order to play a progenitus and then LOL at you. Any control deck... it won't hit the board or ever be relevant anyway, and if it does, you're already winning regardless.
The only matchup I think it will be helpful vs. is goblins... and that's it.
I know i've probably been over-pimping this, but if you really want to run dueling grounds, why not just play cataclysm? It accomplishes the same thing, except screws over 10x more decks than dueling grounds does.
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Tarmogoyf is a pretty good beater, but since we're dropping the Verdicts for Extirpates, Finks is definitely a better choice. Also, the synergy with Volrath's Stronghold just creates problems for aggro decks.
3/3 Split between Tourach and Extirpate
The growing number of Survival decks in our meta makes this a better choice over Verdict. This also gets rid of Zoo's ridiculous amount of burn.
1 Scrubland for a Forest
Even with Mox Diamond, I still want a solid green source that evades Wasteland and doesn't blow up with my Deed. It can be a ***** when I have a bunch of Reliquaries in my hand and all my Bayous get wasted.
Volrath's Stronghold for Horizon Canopy
Yeah, we got rid of the namesake card of the deck. Stronghold is just insane, it also gave me the confidence of trading guys knowing that I can recur that KotR that just received a Bolt and a Helix.
We've only tested against Zoo, BR Gobs, Dredge, GW Survival and MBC. There aren't that many Legacy players in my area and the tournaments are rather scarce when it comes to the format, but there will be a big tourney next week and I'll let you guys know how the MUs went against a variety of other decks.
Oh yeah, the MD Extirpates rape Survival. When you get rid of their Retainers or Vengevines, it's basically GG when you drop an 11/11 KotR to their 6/7 Tarmogoyf.
If it's UG Vengevival, they're probably playing Jitte as removal, so there is a chance they could properly stall up the game gaining life and rejuvenating their army of chumps every couple of turns. In the end though, our creatures are almost always better (I was eaten by a Rootwalla made into a 5/6 off Pendelhaven + Hierarch + selfpump destroying my 4/5 goyfs).
I'm trying to think of what Dueling Grounds doesn't slow back and the only thing I'm coming up with is Progen / Emily / similarly sized dudes from Aggro Loam. With the first two, why was mana wasted on DG in the first place? With the others, Deeds should've came in instead. It holds back the Bant/Elves portion of NO Bant / NO Elves before Progen comes down, but in that situation what does Plague do by itself? Multiple are needed to keep them off from a shrunken 2/2 body to NO off from as is.
@ Vik
Yeah, I've moved to a 3/1 Vindicate/Pulse split in testing. I know it's under efficient, but I can be one of those lucky topdeckers. Heart of the Cards and all that jazz. At the moment, I run a single Deed main and two in the side because I don't have EE`s. The EE is high on my needs list though immediately after I tried to board in Deeds against Jace/Landstill and frowned at discovering Deed can't eat Jace. Granted, I have to have a mox for what I want to do, but eh, it's another sweeper.
Sadly, make that needing 3 `goyf now. Someone offered me a Trop for one, and my stack of duals comes first ><.
As for the tutor, it's the contrary. I had one game where I hit three Tops and couldn't find a shuffle effect to be able to bank on them. If one had been the E.Tutor, I could've gone for Deed or merely wasted W and a card to shuffle so I could dig for StP or the like while stuffing the 2nd Top back in . With lacking Extirpates, I'm running Leylines instead. It's slower for certain, but I don't need to hold mana up to hit the right thing at the right time (let alone knowing what I need to hit), but it clears out random gunk as well. I've yet to have one be bounced though, but I bet that's annoying as hell.
@ cbus05
Yes, Dueling Grounds isn't stellar in many a MU, but what MU is it better to bring in than Engineered Plague? I don't believe it's too much of a question that you will be SB`ing atleast one of the two, so which is better? Plague does nothing against zoo due to their varied creature types, so even if Pridemage does laugh at DG, it'd still be able to pop itself at Plauge just the same unless you land two on "Cat", leaving you open to still be beaten to death by their non-Nactal sticks. DG atleast slows them down to one attacker, which can be dealt with much easier if they kept a handful of cheap beaters.
As for the Elves mentioned, sure, it holds them back a bit, but what sort of draw do they play? They're pretty much stalled dead until they draw one of their 3-4 NO`s, which they nearly have to do before they draw Progen. I guess they could NO-> Viridian Shaman to deal with it if the drew the Progen and didn't feel like sitting around waiting to be able to discard him, but they'd still make that same line of play against a Plague.
@ TheReal
I like your MD Extirpates, but how does it feel cutting a Hymn to the side to get them main? Along the same line, I see that Extirpate G1 can be used to knock something annoying and once-seen out of the deck, but along that same lines what have you thought about running a singleton Bojuka Bog in the main? You are definitely right about Verdict not being a happy camper in a Vengevival / Dredge infected meta.
As for the forest, how many people start writing their lists "4 Fow, 4 Wasteland..."? I'd feel bad playing a list without atleast a basic of each color in there. At worst it screws you when you need B/, but otherwise it's a lovely land to pluck out to feed a Knight carefreely.
How important do you feel that Karakas is MB to pick it over Canopy since you've opted for Stronghold? I enjoy the idea of bringing back critters, but as soon as I see you do it once, this Wasteland is just waiting for your Stronghold before I blast your Knight away. Especially with so many decks running StP / PtE, how much of your meta actually can kill Knight dead? As far as I know, nothing really runs the likes of Terminate. Smother perhaps though. Bob is a much more likely target in my thoughts, and at that it becomes BB,T, Skip your next draw: Earn extra draws for the next while or eat a Jitte counter.
We might not see as many lands as New Horizons does with their cantrips, but activate Knight -> Canopy -> Pray is something no other lands in here can do.
What MU is Pulse in the board for, or is it just there to make room for the MD Extirpates due to a meta call? Since you have a pair of Deeds in the SB as well, when do the Pulses come in without the Deeds and vice versa?
@ cbus05
Yes, Dueling Grounds isn't stellar in many a MU, but what MU is it better to bring in than Engineered Plague? I don't believe it's too much of a question that you will be SB`ing atleast one of the two, so which is better? Plague does nothing against zoo due to their varied creature types, so even if Pridemage does laugh at DG, it'd still be able to pop itself at Plauge just the same unless you land two on "Cat", leaving you open to still be beaten to death by their non-Nactal sticks. DG atleast slows them down to one attacker, which can be dealt with much easier if they kept a handful of cheap beaters.
As for the Elves mentioned, sure, it holds them back a bit, but what sort of draw do they play? They're pretty much stalled dead until they draw one of their 3-4 NO`s, which they nearly have to do before they draw Progen. I guess they could NO-> Viridian Shaman to deal with it if the drew the Progen and didn't feel like sitting around waiting to be able to discard him, but they'd still make that same line of play against a Plague.
~ Rith
Well, first off, Elves isn't a huge problem anyway if you're maindecking Deeds/discard packages & removal. This + your own creature list should be enough to play vs. them anyway. I wouldn't play engineered plague OR dueling grounds in the sideboard. If you really are having that hard of a time with these decks, add engineered explosives, it's a much better choice overall. Just wait for them to overextend, drop your sweeper, sweep, then proceed to play your creatures.
Aggro heavy decks aren't typically that strong vs. highly interactive decks that want to be very disruptive anyway.
If this isn't working, try just adding a little bit more removal to your board. Deathmark, Perish, Path to Exile, even Wrath of God are good choices vs. all out aggro. Or you could do what I've been having a lot of success with and mainboard a Cataclysm package, which solves your problem pre-sideboard.
@ TheReal
I like your MD Extirpates, but how does it feel cutting a Hymn to the side to get them main? Along the same line, I see that Extirpate G1 can be used to knock something annoying and once-seen out of the deck, but along that same lines what have you thought about running a singleton Bojuka Bog in the main? You are definitely right about Verdict not being a happy camper in a Vengevival / Dredge infected meta.
Cutting a Hymn feels ok, I mean even with 4 copies, you don't get to draw them all the time. It doesn't feel lacking really. As with Bojuka Bog, I'll need an online Reliquary for that to work, and it'll probably be better against the Dredge match-up knowing they don't have removal. Bojuka Bog targets a player as well, a lot of people playing Dredge here have used Leyline of Sanctity in their SBs.
How important do you feel that Karakas is MB to pick it over Canopy since you've opted for Stronghold? I enjoy the idea of bringing back critters, but as soon as I see you do it once, this Wasteland is just waiting for your Stronghold before I blast your Knight away. Especially with so many decks running StP / PtE, how much of your meta actually can kill Knight dead? As far as I know, nothing really runs the likes of Terminate. Smother perhaps though. Bob is a much more likely target in my thoughts, and at that it becomes BB,T, Skip your next draw: Earn extra draws for the next while or eat a Jitte counter.
Karakas is there for the Show and Tell MU, in case I ever bump into one. I want to have at least one answer against a cheated Emrakul. It's just playing safe really. As for Stronghold, not everyone has Wastelands in every game they play. If it sticks, it's definitely insane card advantage for you, but if it gets wasted, then it hits the bin, easy as that. It's a great card, but something that you should learn not to rely on 100%. To answer the dying Knight, a lot play Zoo or use Gatekeepers and Damnations to kill my guys. A lot of my opponents also use their Swords and PtEs for my Finks, in my experience at least. By that time, KotR will definitely stick. And you're right about Bob also being a target, he's CA. You'll just keep drawing answers if they don't get rid of Bob.
What MU is Pulse in the board for, or is it just there to make room for the MD Extirpates due to a meta call? Since you have a pair of Deeds in the SB as well, when do the Pulses come in without the Deeds and vice versa?
It's just there, 'cause we can't think of anything to put right now. We're thinking of adding Verdicts. I dunno, I've got a gut feeling that I'll use the Pulse in the upcoming tourney.
Some sample lists.
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Instants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [11]
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Artifacts [8]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Perish
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [3]
3 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [12]
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
Enchantments [3]
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
Artifacts [4]
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Extirpate
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maze of Ith
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
GWB Rock has had numerous top 8s this month, and it is thriving in survival-filled meta.
Top 8 - 4th and 5th place
Top 8
Another top 8
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Duress
The core of this deck is really not to be tampered with. That said, there are certainly cards that can be moved around. Some variations I have seen have had no mox diamond and 4 Gerrard's verdict and some with 4 Moxes and 3 engineered explosives. The land toolbox varies between each deck, but I find that having both maze and karakas can be a surprise answer to the very few cards we cant answer with spells. There will be a card by card analysis in this OP later on.
Sideboard options:
Other than the SB provided above, we have many other options.
Aven Mindcensor: has been seen very frequently, and it is a fantastic option to board in against survival. To boot, it also has evasion which non of our other beaters do.
Engineered Explosives Can be played if you are running with moxes. It is a difficult decision to choose if you want Pernicious Deed or EE, I see most decks run Deed though.
Bojuka Bog: This card actually sees MD play in some builds. All in all I would say Karakas is more useful for a G1 game, so it got the spot over Bog. Depending on your meta, bog could be an all star.
Also, i've run an similiar list on MWS and it seemed like the number of creatures seems too small though.
And also, what about Maelstrom Pulse, could it see play on this deck?
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
legacy: Doomsday, Dredge, BUG (shard less and still)
modern: storm, woo dredge, U-tron
EDH: maelstrom wanderer, Gisela, krenko, lazav, sharrum, sheoldred/xiahou dun, norin the wary, Thrax, Mimeoplasm, GW legends
As for life from the loam, it would be difficult to fit in.
Let us know how it goes aznchaos
First of all, it's not all as good as the OP claims vs Survival. It's faring more than ok against GU survival with vengevine, but Loyal Retainer survival and Necrotic Ooze pose a threath. That can't be neglected.
It does, however, beat soundly merfolk and zoo, as well as most control decks without the counter-top.
The Goblins matchup is disfavorable. The TES matchup is really bad.
Pernicious Deed is a brilliant card, please don't drop them for a phony mox diamond argument. You are likely to lose a few cards to a Deed anyway, but you wreck your opponent's board position and lock them out of the game.
The point is that your discard suite pushes players to overextended, and your removal suite takes care of that right after.
Vidicate is indeed better than Maelstrom Pulse in the fact that with an active night you can pull 4 wastelands in a row, forcing your opponents to get basics. If you vindicate them, they're screwed.
One of the deck's primary skill to master is knowing when to use knight to hit and when to use him for tricks. I like to use an active knight to block virtually 2 creatures (block, activate, get maze, maze dude) and then use it offensively every turn after (attack, maze knight after damage, use ability later).
Srsly, that list always worked completely reversed from what i wanted it to play. When i needed lands, it didn't came. When I needed Creatures, it didn't came. When i needed removals, it didn't came too. Maybe it was just bad luck but it happaned.
I've been thinking on exchanging Thoughtseize for Inquisition of Kozilek, as it just doesn't grap a few cards from the format and from all of those the only one who seems relevant to me is Force of Will, the life loss from thoughtseize made a lot of difference against Burn and Zoo.
On DeTora's extra land drop on PT:GTC
Anyway, I play the inquisition in pox as a 3/3 split witht thoughtseize, and it's good. I wouldn't favor it though. The aggro matchup is good enough that the lifeloss is no significant.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
In any case, i've been developing this, it's a horizons build that uses Cataclysm as a 1-shot game winner.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Dark Confidant
2x Terravore
Artifacts
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Instants/Sorceries
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Gerard's Verdict
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Cataclysm
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
1x Stirring Wildwood
4x Extirpate
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Krosan Grip
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Maze of Ith
The basic idea here is that Cataclysm takes place of Pernicious Deed as the catch-all sweeper. The only difference of course is that it leaves you in a better position than the opponent and has a greater "you're screwed" factor when it blows up their lands.
This brings the deck focus to more of a White/Green shell, so cutting out double black becomes important.
Other advantages to cataclysm is that it makes playing Kitchen finks even better than normal. This destroys the Zoo & Burn matchups, and makes it hard on other decks such as the gate, that try to make us sacrifice our creatures instead of straight up removing them using swords.
Pridemage is a must-have in here. Dropping a Cataclysm without destroying an opponent's Vial or Moat isn't the best idea. It's a great aggro creature anyway, and if played before standstill, it'll really hurt Blue decks such as Fish and Landstill.
The *main* drawback here is that Gerard's Verdict gets played as a 4-of instead of Hymn. This isn't perfectly ideal, but it's still good enough to accomplish what we need it to.. which is forcing an opponent to overextend after having a low amount of cards in hand.
Cabal Therapy is always good, but gets better as you'll be saccing your creatures anyway to Cataclysm. Forcing a landstill player to get rid of their standstill is crucial, and it can put a big dent in combo player's plans as well. Therapy also prevents an opponent from playing a swords right after you drop a cataclysm, which would be a disadvantageous play on our part.
From the sideboard, extirpate, canonist, Leyline, and Krosan Grip are all valuable hatebears vs. just about all decks that are running around right now.
This list has played out really well for now. Cataclysm even helps out vs. Storm Combo decks since they typically need more than just 1 land to go off, and you can kill off their entire landbase via Vindicate, Wasteland, Cataclysm, and Pridemage (for LED's, petals, etc).
Creatures (12):
This part of the deck is not customizable - it is what it is. These three creatures represent arguably the single best ones ever printed for competitive play in their respective colors. At the very least they are very much in the discussion. Dark Confidant allows the deck to refill and reload threats and answers while doubling as Shock every turn if need be, or an early blocker under pressure. His synergy with Top is ridiculous, and with a typical mana base of 23 land/3 Mox Diamond there are 26 zero CMC cards in the deck to keep his damage to you low even without and active SDT. Typically your discard will cripple your opponent's hand early and get them topdecking if you are ahead or slow them down if you are behind, and then Bob will come down and draw you 2-for-1 to win the game with card advantage and large threats. Speaking of those large threats, both Goyf and KotR are typically 4+ power whenever they are on the board. I don't know how much discussion I need to waste on the raw power of Tarmogoyf, so moving on...Knight of the Reliquary is amazing in a deck with 8 fetches, 4 Wastelands, 3x Mox Diamond and a Horizon Canopy. Sometimes you'll have first turn fetch/Diamond, second turn fetch into KotR and suddenly you have a 5/5 on the board. As XwT mentioned in his post earlier, KotR is extremely useful for tricks as well, tutoring up Maze, Karakas, Canopy, or in other versions Bojuka Bog/Sejiri Steppe/Stirring Wildwood and just winning the game as a result.
Artifacts (6-8):
Although Vader mentioned he has seen versions without Mox Diamond, I have not. All the tournament level builds run the same package of 3x SDT and 3x Mox. I don't see why you would change that at all as it seems to be optimal in my opinion. I actually think Mox Diamond is a key card in the deck as it accelerates you into massive tempo gains from discard/early creatures/Vindicate AND gets lands into the graveyard - which KotR and Tarmogoyf love. Occasionally you will play first turn Goyf at a 1/2, second turn discard spell and depending on what you hit, start swinging for 3 or 4 immediately. First turn Hymn is nasty, first turn Bob is scary for control especially - you get the picture. SDT is one of those cards that just makes life better for you when it's out, as we all know. Max copies are not needed - 3 is just fine, you seem them often enough and with the fetch reshuffles/Bob the synergy really really hurts an opponent as you can find answers on command. Engineered Explosives are great and precise but some builds prefer Pernicious Deed or a split of Explosives/Deed (more to come on that).
Instants (4):
4x Swords to Plowshares
Again, not up for debate. It kills things dead, has done so forever, is simply the best...better than all the rest. The only thing I can add in is this deck StP can be extremely useful lifegain in a pinch if need be, especially in Thoughtseize-heavy versions of the deck.
Sorceries (12-14):
Some 4-6 card combination of Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and Gerrard's Verdict
I have seen a few versions with 3x Vindicate but none that run less than a full complement of Hymns. It is the most devastating discard spell ever excepting Mind Twist, and a first turn targeted discard spell followed by Hymn is brutal. Some mentioned Maelstrom Pulse in relation to Vindicate - in the end, Maelstrom Pulse - while obviously an awesome card worthy of comparison - is simply not as relevant to the Legacy metagame where there a few multiple target knockouts to be had. I used to run a 3/1 split for Iona naming White but that was because a local guy always played Reanimator. In nearly every other matchup I was wishing the Pulse was another Vindicate. The ability to hit lands is key as this deck can pursue an aggressive mana denial strategy backed by discard if it wants to. The more Vindicates the better IMHO. As far as the remaining slots, I strongly favor a split of 3x IoK/1x TS/1x GV but this is definitely debatable. I've found in hyper aggro matchups that the life loss from the fetches/Bob/TS really adds up, and Verdict/StP help but aren't enough. IoK is generally just as good and doesn't ping you which is why I prefer it. Verdict can function as lifegain as I just mentioned, or Hymns 5 and 6 if need be and it gives your opponent hard choices to make very often.
Enchantments (0-2):
Xx Pernicious Deed
Getting back to the Deed/EE question, I like a 1/1 split. Both are clearly amazing cards than can generate enormous advantage. The reason I like a split is because sometimes you want to get an artifact in the yard to pump Goyf and a maindeck EE give you that option naturally along with being a precision cutting cool. The same is true for Deed and getting enchantments in the yard, of course, and it is more like a chainsaw. This is really up to you and your meta.
Land (23):
23 lands seems to be the right number. Since Maze doesn't produce land, you actually have 25 mana sources and you don't need much to operate. Eight fetches and 5 duals seems optimal. I run 3x Scrubland and 2x Bayou, I have seen some that do it the other way or add a Savannah. Really depends on your ratio of Green to White in the final mix and what your wild card slot(s) are. 4x Wasteland...yeah. It has the added benefit of growing KotRs. Maze, the same, what can you say about the best defensive land ever by a wide margin? The two remaining slots are up to you to play with - most run Horizon Canopy, I like Bojuka Bog as well but Karakas is equally favored in top level decks. In a Survival-heavy meta like this I think the Bog is the right call, tutoring it up with Veggy's triggers on the stack is like an Extirpate maindeck.
I won't talk about sideboard/matchup guide in this post as I've already rambled enough and want to hear what others have to say about this fantastic and fun deck, so I'll leave you with my current decklist + board:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Tarmogoyf
Instants (4):
4x Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts (7):
3x Mox Diamond
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Engineered Explosives
Sorceries (13):
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Vindicate
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
1x Gerrard's Verdict
1x Pernicious Deed
Land (23):
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
3x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Engineered Plague
3x Extirpate
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Perish
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle
Hope this was helpful to anybody and I really look forward to more discussion of this archetype!
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Edit: Also, those 4x Engineered Plague should be 4x Dueling Grounds. Once you discover Dueling Grounds, you never go back (unless you play both). It helps in more matchups where it counts, such as: Vengevine, Merfolk, Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Zoo, etc.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Edit: hmm, I like the idea of Dueling Grounds a lot. Looks like I need to spend 3-4 bucks on a playset, lol!
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
As is I've already had too many games where I've Verdict`d myself for six life using extra lands drawn off from Bob to power up Knight and `vore. I'd rather not add to the damage myself unneededly with Thoughtsieze.
Due to only having a pair, I've been running 2 Vindicate, 2 Maelstrom Pulse. While it's noticeably worse due to not being able to hit a land, I've never been unhappy to see it in anything but game one of a burn match up. I know it's low odds, but I'd consider keeping atleast one in just because I've had it game one off a Mox to turn 2 wipe EtW as well as I've killed atleast two Lords with it every time I've resolved it against Merfolk. Iona on White may stop StP / Vindicate but has nothing against Pulse as well.
I quite like your idea cbus05, but the list seems too generic Rock-ish off from the Cataclysm. The same general get them to overextend-into-doom plan applies, but the smaller critters like Hierarch just seem to be inefficient if the goal is to sweep them off, even if you are left in the better board position afterwards.
Nice breakdown, Vik. You're right on the creature base there. Due to budget, I've been running a pair of Terravore in place of two `goyfs since I have them left over from New Horizons, and that difference between 1GG and 1G has been painfully felt. They might easily outclass `goyf in a turn or two, but he really makes me wish I owned a 3rd Bayou.
Have you considered Enlightened Tutor? I know it's mostly just cute, but I've been running one in place of my 3rd Top. If I need a top, it costs me a skipped draw which Bob makes up for. Otherwise, it drags up Deed or EE in my mostly aggro meta as makes sideboarding a little easier.
Wow, Dueling Grounds just seems so much better now that you point that out, especially once you Knight up a Maze. Granted, you can't do neat things with it like you can with setting Plague onto Human (Bob, Mom, Mangara, Hierarch, etc) but in the end it keeps you alive as long as they don't find a way to remove it.
Has anyone tried an Elspeth or two in here? I've seen her pop up in a Deadguy Ale build or two which this almost seems to function very similar to. She holds off aggro a bit and makes Bob much more lethal than a mere shock, not to mention flying pumped goyf pwns regular goyf in a race.
~ Rith
BWG Dark Horizons
UWB Esper Stoneblade
GUB Lands
BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH:
BGW Karador, Spirit Warmage
As far as Pulse/Vindicate, as I said I had a 3/1 split but I don't think I need it. Killing multiple Lords and such is neat but killing a land is VERY crucial in Legacy, where the lands are big threats too and mana usage is a tight as can be. I suppose this is also meta dependent but I don't think I would go less than 3 Vindicate. None of the successful tournament builds run Pulse, although Scott Collet's 15th place deck at SCG Boston dropped to 3 Vindicates, with a discard suite of 4x Hymn, 2x Verdict, 3x IoK and 2x Thoughtseize. He also ran 2x Explosives and added a land.
I guess it's really meta dependent and depends on how much you fear Iona and/or Empty the Warrens. In my local meta we have a lot of control decks and midrange aggro/Survival/Zoo but not a lot of Merfolk or ANT. Also the one dude playing Re-animator switched to White Stax, which the Pulse sucks against but Vindicate can cripple by knocking out an early Ancient Tomb and leaving them land screwed and unable to drop Crucible. That said, I do like having one Pulse in the 75 somewhere, maybe I will make room for it in the SB. After I change Engineered Plagues to Dueling Grounds, of course!
It's not like I think you have 90 bucks laying around, but I would go hard after two more Goyfs. Terravore doesn't work nearly as well IMHO in this particular style of deck. He might be bigger sometimes but you said it yourself, the 3 CMC/double Green requirement is not so easy for this deck to consistently produce.
I haven't tried Tutor in this deck myself, but if you are low on Tops I could see where it might work. But I don't feel it is needed - it's the kind of card you want 3-4 of if you run it at all. Personally I'd rather have the 3rd Top every time. And if you need to find Explosives/Deed ASAP, having a one-of Tutor and wasting a turn isn't going to save you either. What is your Deed/EE mix? If you run two in total, you should be fine regardless of the specific combination you use.
I haven't tested Elspeth yet because I...lost one (D'oh!) and just replaced it. I know Dzra has a list he posted here somewhere with an Elspeth main and I have seen a few builds that run her. Seems like a good idea, I just don't know what to cut!
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig
Well, i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just trying to improve it. The Cataclysm-list definitely would need development, of which i've only done a little. I think Cataclysm has a LOT of benefits however, and it instantly becomes a really explosive play.
Look at it this way, in normal dark horizons, we need a full set of wastelands, deeds, and vindicates to screw over an opponent's mana base and serve as boardsweep.
Why play a set of 5-10 cards when you can successfully achieve all of what those card's goals are with a 1 shot 4 mana sorcery? Cataclysm destroys lands, clears out their board, and pumps your knights/terravores all at the same time. It's simply about getting more bang for your buck, which equates to better overall card advantage.
My thoughts with Hierarch were that I love early game acceleration, and it gives us an advantage over opponents who simultaneously run land destruction (except for maybe pox). I know Mox Diamond may be a little more explosive at the start, but it's pretty hard to recover from it when an opponent dazes it, and I just don't like the risk/reward involved there.
Hierarch breaks aggro vs. aggro locks in making your creatures more powerful too, which is small, but when you add in pridemage for an additional exalted buffer, the aggro damage adds up.
There are a few cards i'm on the fence about, most of which I'm unsure of is Cabal Therapy. It's good, but i'm not sure whether simply playing IOK or Thoughtseize would be better.
It's not freezing the game at all, you will have a massive advantage with a single KotR or 4/5 or better Tarmogoyf.
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Dueling grounds is decent, but it is good against only a small portion of decks, and bad against MANY other decks.
Just off the top of my head, it's good vs. Goblins, *maybe* zoo, elves (not including NO version, which is most of elves), and that's about it.
Zoo will likely have enough removal to deal with all your creatures, or they'll simply pridemage the enchantment, while Elves will simply use a natural order to play a progenitus and then LOL at you. Any control deck... it won't hit the board or ever be relevant anyway, and if it does, you're already winning regardless.
The only matchup I think it will be helpful vs. is goblins... and that's it.
I know i've probably been over-pimping this, but if you really want to run dueling grounds, why not just play cataclysm? It accomplishes the same thing, except screws over 10x more decks than dueling grounds does.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Extirpate
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Diamond
1 Extirpate
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
Kitchen Finks over Tarmogoyf
Tarmogoyf is a pretty good beater, but since we're dropping the Verdicts for Extirpates, Finks is definitely a better choice. Also, the synergy with Volrath's Stronghold just creates problems for aggro decks.
3/3 Split between Tourach and Extirpate
The growing number of Survival decks in our meta makes this a better choice over Verdict. This also gets rid of Zoo's ridiculous amount of burn.
1 Scrubland for a Forest
Even with Mox Diamond, I still want a solid green source that evades Wasteland and doesn't blow up with my Deed. It can be a ***** when I have a bunch of Reliquaries in my hand and all my Bayous get wasted.
Volrath's Stronghold for Horizon Canopy
Yeah, we got rid of the namesake card of the deck. Stronghold is just insane, it also gave me the confidence of trading guys knowing that I can recur that KotR that just received a Bolt and a Helix.
We've only tested against Zoo, BR Gobs, Dredge, GW Survival and MBC. There aren't that many Legacy players in my area and the tournaments are rather scarce when it comes to the format, but there will be a big tourney next week and I'll let you guys know how the MUs went against a variety of other decks.
Oh yeah, the MD Extirpates rape Survival. When you get rid of their Retainers or Vengevines, it's basically GG when you drop an 11/11 KotR to their 6/7 Tarmogoyf.
I'm trying to think of what Dueling Grounds doesn't slow back and the only thing I'm coming up with is Progen / Emily / similarly sized dudes from Aggro Loam. With the first two, why was mana wasted on DG in the first place? With the others, Deeds should've came in instead. It holds back the Bant/Elves portion of NO Bant / NO Elves before Progen comes down, but in that situation what does Plague do by itself? Multiple are needed to keep them off from a shrunken 2/2 body to NO off from as is.
@ Vik
Yeah, I've moved to a 3/1 Vindicate/Pulse split in testing. I know it's under efficient, but I can be one of those lucky topdeckers. Heart of the Cards and all that jazz. At the moment, I run a single Deed main and two in the side because I don't have EE`s. The EE is high on my needs list though immediately after I tried to board in Deeds against Jace/Landstill and frowned at discovering Deed can't eat Jace. Granted, I have to have a mox for what I want to do, but eh, it's another sweeper.
Sadly, make that needing 3 `goyf now. Someone offered me a Trop for one, and my stack of duals comes first ><.
As for the tutor, it's the contrary. I had one game where I hit three Tops and couldn't find a shuffle effect to be able to bank on them. If one had been the E.Tutor, I could've gone for Deed or merely wasted W and a card to shuffle so I could dig for StP or the like while stuffing the 2nd Top back in . With lacking Extirpates, I'm running Leylines instead. It's slower for certain, but I don't need to hold mana up to hit the right thing at the right time (let alone knowing what I need to hit), but it clears out random gunk as well. I've yet to have one be bounced though, but I bet that's annoying as hell.
@ cbus05
Yes, Dueling Grounds isn't stellar in many a MU, but what MU is it better to bring in than Engineered Plague? I don't believe it's too much of a question that you will be SB`ing atleast one of the two, so which is better? Plague does nothing against zoo due to their varied creature types, so even if Pridemage does laugh at DG, it'd still be able to pop itself at Plauge just the same unless you land two on "Cat", leaving you open to still be beaten to death by their non-Nactal sticks. DG atleast slows them down to one attacker, which can be dealt with much easier if they kept a handful of cheap beaters.
As for the Elves mentioned, sure, it holds them back a bit, but what sort of draw do they play? They're pretty much stalled dead until they draw one of their 3-4 NO`s, which they nearly have to do before they draw Progen. I guess they could NO-> Viridian Shaman to deal with it if the drew the Progen and didn't feel like sitting around waiting to be able to discard him, but they'd still make that same line of play against a Plague.
@ TheReal
I like your MD Extirpates, but how does it feel cutting a Hymn to the side to get them main? Along the same line, I see that Extirpate G1 can be used to knock something annoying and once-seen out of the deck, but along that same lines what have you thought about running a singleton Bojuka Bog in the main? You are definitely right about Verdict not being a happy camper in a Vengevival / Dredge infected meta.
As for the forest, how many people start writing their lists "4 Fow, 4 Wasteland..."? I'd feel bad playing a list without atleast a basic of each color in there. At worst it screws you when you need B/, but otherwise it's a lovely land to pluck out to feed a Knight carefreely.
How important do you feel that Karakas is MB to pick it over Canopy since you've opted for Stronghold? I enjoy the idea of bringing back critters, but as soon as I see you do it once, this Wasteland is just waiting for your Stronghold before I blast your Knight away. Especially with so many decks running StP / PtE, how much of your meta actually can kill Knight dead? As far as I know, nothing really runs the likes of Terminate. Smother perhaps though. Bob is a much more likely target in my thoughts, and at that it becomes BB,T, Skip your next draw: Earn extra draws for the next while or eat a Jitte counter.
We might not see as many lands as New Horizons does with their cantrips, but activate Knight -> Canopy -> Pray is something no other lands in here can do.
What MU is Pulse in the board for, or is it just there to make room for the MD Extirpates due to a meta call? Since you have a pair of Deeds in the SB as well, when do the Pulses come in without the Deeds and vice versa?
~ Rith
BWG Dark Horizons
UWB Esper Stoneblade
GUB Lands
BGB (Pact) Spanish Inquisition
EDH:
BGW Karador, Spirit Warmage
Well, first off, Elves isn't a huge problem anyway if you're maindecking Deeds/discard packages & removal. This + your own creature list should be enough to play vs. them anyway. I wouldn't play engineered plague OR dueling grounds in the sideboard. If you really are having that hard of a time with these decks, add engineered explosives, it's a much better choice overall. Just wait for them to overextend, drop your sweeper, sweep, then proceed to play your creatures.
Aggro heavy decks aren't typically that strong vs. highly interactive decks that want to be very disruptive anyway.
If this isn't working, try just adding a little bit more removal to your board. Deathmark, Perish, Path to Exile, even Wrath of God are good choices vs. all out aggro. Or you could do what I've been having a lot of success with and mainboard a Cataclysm package, which solves your problem pre-sideboard.
Cutting a Hymn feels ok, I mean even with 4 copies, you don't get to draw them all the time. It doesn't feel lacking really. As with Bojuka Bog, I'll need an online Reliquary for that to work, and it'll probably be better against the Dredge match-up knowing they don't have removal. Bojuka Bog targets a player as well, a lot of people playing Dredge here have used Leyline of Sanctity in their SBs.
Karakas is there for the Show and Tell MU, in case I ever bump into one. I want to have at least one answer against a cheated Emrakul. It's just playing safe really. As for Stronghold, not everyone has Wastelands in every game they play. If it sticks, it's definitely insane card advantage for you, but if it gets wasted, then it hits the bin, easy as that. It's a great card, but something that you should learn not to rely on 100%. To answer the dying Knight, a lot play Zoo or use Gatekeepers and Damnations to kill my guys. A lot of my opponents also use their Swords and PtEs for my Finks, in my experience at least. By that time, KotR will definitely stick. And you're right about Bob also being a target, he's CA. You'll just keep drawing answers if they don't get rid of Bob.
It's just there, 'cause we can't think of anything to put right now. We're thinking of adding Verdicts. I dunno, I've got a gut feeling that I'll use the Pulse in the upcoming tourney.
Oh dude, I love that card, it sure could replace Gerrard's Verdict. Wow, that's awesome.