If you ask wether counterspell is better than spell pierce against hivemind... then it depends.
Counterspell can be used to counter the show and tell or the hivemind. Thus never getting you in real danger. However if you run spellpierce you can counter you own copy of the pacts on the stack.
So in a counter heavy deck you would go counterspell I guess to make your counter wall bigger and more resillient.
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If you ask wether counterspell is better than spell pierce against hivemind... then it depends.
Counterspell can be used to counter the show and tell or the hivemind. Thus never getting you in real danger. However if you run spellpierce you can counter you own copy of the pacts on the stack.
So in a counter heavy deck you would go counterspell I guess to make your counter wall bigger and more resillient.
Spell Pierec also stops both of those cards.......
In a nutshell, no, Spell Pierce is better. If they try and play around Pierce with SnT, then they have 5 mana and could hardcast Hive Mind soon anyways, but by trying to play around it, they give you more time to find Clique or to NO and blow up their lands (Terastadon)
I had been using stifle as hate for hivemind/storm. It also was functioning as g2/3 swaps for Daze if I was on the draw against fetch/wasteland/zoo decks, wasteland being the primary as being screwed out of color hurts.
Why Relic over Crypt? just because it can eat a card a turn?
I had been using stifle as hate for hivemind/storm. It also was functioning as g2/3 swaps for Daze if I was on the draw against fetch/wasteland/zoo decks, wasteland being the primary as being screwed out of color hurts.
That sounds really bad :$.
If you need something against Zoo, Submerge or Jitte should be your choice. And siding it in on the draw seems even worse, as it's strongest when your on the play. I don't get it.
Why Relic over Crypt? just because it can eat a card a turn?
Exactly. Against grave based decks you can eat away at their resources, or pop the whole thing and cantrip. Even for the mana, it's just outright better.
So stifle is the wrong play? I know it is best on the play, but daze is a dog on the draw, I haven't tested against zoo yet, but against junk and the wasteland decks being able to stifle a wasteland trigger has been pretty amazing
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidwolf
Why Relic over Crypt? just because it can eat a card a turn?
Exactly. Against grave based decks you can eat away at their resources, or pop the whole thing and cantrip. Even for the mana, it's just outright better.
I had been hesitant to test relic as reseting my goyfs to 0/1s was the last thing i wanted to do, but I will test it out.
He talks about metamorph and people being prepaired to deal with Progen... More evidence that Terastodon is awesome imo. 'stodon also ignores Llawan, Cephalid Empress
After losing to dredge with a progenitus on board, I need more ideas for GY hate. I've got the Scavenging Ooze I can zenith for, as well as relics and crypts. There's gotta be more I can do. Thoughts?
hey all, what are your thoughts on fire//ice in the deck? also, why only 3 mental missteps?
Personally, I'm not a fan of fire//ice. It doesn't answer many things, and what it does answer is hardly going to be game breaking. Ice never seems like it's anywhere near as useful as fire, which is sub-par to lightning bolt and the blue count is plenty high for FoW.
3 MM is a flex build similar to 3 dazes, solely because 1 drops have much less impact on the game state as the game continues. Aether Vial is much less scary t5 than it is t1.
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Phantasmal Images are mainly to copy "sliver lords" but they are also fantastic MD counter to emrakul/progenitus.
Just geez. He beats me with non-proge creature fight everytime. Those slivers get so big so fast. He counters as hard as i do so it`s pretty tough to get NO resolved when it would get job done but most of time there is vial for 2 and phantasmal image in hand.
What can i side to beat this deck?
I've played against counter Slivers, they're strictly worse than Merfolk because they have absolutely no card advantage.
If your really worried about it, I would guess Firespout would do a good job.
nonono merfolk dies to burn, lavamancers and REBs. Also Tarmo is usually big enough that it causes major trouble for merfolk.
Slivers tend to get much bigger than tarmo (basicly 11 two mana lords). Grim lavamancers face impossible task and bolts + rebs won`t work thx to 4 Crystalline Sliver and 3 Hibernation Sliver.
Also most merfolks won`t play standstill so i`m not sure why you are worried about Merfolk "card advantage" more than slivers.
Firespout feels a bit meh .. If they have 3 lords it does nothing and my own stuff dies too TT + they can return stuff with Hibernation Sliver
But i guess that`s best that red can offer. I try those instead of lavamancers if i expect to face slivers in a small tournament.
"strictly worse than Merfolk" seems like an overstatement. NO RUG eats merfolks alive and i have huge troubles against this sliver deck with huge untargetable creatures and a thousand maindeck tools to deal with Natural Order. I haven`r tested too much yet but just got Mutavaults for my own sliver deck. I start testing -------
There "strictly" worse than Merfolk in the sense that if they do not resolve Aether Vial turn 1, any player with Wasteland can dictate their plays.
For instance, I could just as easily keep them off White as to make sure they have access to no removal and no Shroud. In a format somewhat defined by that card, it seems like a losing propostion to try and even play Slivers at any kind of tournament. It would strictly lose to Team America and Merfolk, not too mention it has the smae kind of problems as any tribal deck does against Zoo.
But yeah lets not go sidetrack anymore. This is NO RUG thread. So do we have other than Firespout against Slivers? That card seems ok but as mentioned: One Hibernation Sliver or 3 x Sliver from Muscle, Sinew, Phantasmal Image counters that. Firespout has also potential to hurt us some.
Still accepted. Any other side techs? Would Powder Keg / Ratched Bomb / Engineered Explosives do the job since all slivers seems to be on casting cost 2..? Also it seems quite wise to side out all NO and Proge against deck that plays 3 x Phantasmal Image.
Like Dyne said, counter aether vial and it's a bad merfolk deck. Folk runs more lords than slivers, and has card advantage, Silvergil Adept. Merfolk also has Coralhelm Commander which can be a threat by its self. Slivers also don't get unblockable creatures against roughly 60% of the format. Other than that, use Engineered Explosives since the whole deck is 2cc, use firespout as you can hit 3 mana long before your buddy can get 3+ lords out, or since you said they don't run any basic lands, bring in Back to Basics. You have basics and Noble Hierarch to still play with.
Again, as Dyne previously pointed out, counter aether vial, and then waste their white sources. They only have 4 Crystalline Slivers and absolutely no manipulation to find them so I don't really see how your buddy can always have one. Heck another option would be to bring in a couple Thornwield Archer as he effectively stops Crystalline Sliver and/or Winged Sliver from swinging, and is guarenteed to trade 1 for 1. Slivers need to swarm to win, they absolutely need to, just remember that.
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- Folk doesn`t counter my Natural Order or Kill Progenitus with Phantasmal Image. Other than that: I would imagine Folk being quite tough match up for slivers.
- I don`t think i should play wastelands with NO since i want to be dropping mana lands a bit more than just couple turns so NO RUG can`t use that tempo as advantage against most of decks. And as pointed out: It`s nearly impossible to keep 4 tundra 8 fetch manabase away from white mana with just 4 wastelands.
- Back to Basics feels a bit too weak as sideboard card. Yeah i have 2 basics + Nobles but how many deck i would really bring BtB or Blood Moon in..?
- They have only 4 Crystalline slivers AND 3 Hibernation Slivers. Yeah he doesn`t always have one but 7 protection slivers with brainstorms is not that far fetched.
- Thornwield Archer is an interesting option. It`s good to know that 1G reach death touch exists. Cheers!
- Slivers get pretty big pretty fast. With 2 lords, 1 Protection sliver they are already 3/3, 3/3, 4/4 + mutavault 4/4. That`s already quite scary board to face against with possible StoP backup.
Well I don't know what to tell you; you've asked for advise and people have given it. I guess the whole meta is just woefully ignorant to the fact that counter slivers is just such a good deck that nothing can stop it, and it's our fault for not placing the deck in the proven section.
You said that your friend's deck doesn't run any basics, right there you have a glaring weakness that's easy to exploit. Heck, up your basic land count to 4/5 and bring in blood moon. It might not be "ideal" for you, but it's impossible for your friend. What's your buddies deck gonna do with red mana??
I helped one of my friends build a counter sliver deck and I've played against it with many different decks. IMO, hibernation sliver is a sub-par card to run in the deck anyway. Sure it might be a little stronger now that it's got the image clone to add, but it's still a weak deck. The reason it's a weak deck, is that slivers are an extremely linear tribe, and absolutely have to swarm to win. They don't have the flexibility of merfolk, goblins, and elves, and do not recover well from wipe effects. They have 0 ways to cheat or reduce the cost of their creatures and are 100% reliant on an early aether vial to play competitively.
NO RUG should have a good match up against slivers. If you're running MM and FoW, there is no reason why they should resolve a vial without paying heavily in card advantage. Beyond that, board wipes flat out beat them. Run Engineered Explosives, set it at two, and win. Run firespout, and blast the creeps before they get to 4 toughness, which should be easy if you keep vial off the table. It's not a difficult match-up if you exploit the inherent weaknesses of the deck. Heck, consider adding in a Novablast Wurm if phantasmal image is eating your progenitus.
Long story short - competitive play (this forum) is about playing to win. It's not about playing what feels best, what looks the flashiest, what deck uses the most expensive cards; it's about winning. When a difficult deck/match up arrives, you look for two things:
1 - How is my deck weak against them and how are they exploiting that weakness; can I compensate for it?
2 - What is their deck's weakness and how can I exploit it?
IMO, hearing that your friend plays no basic lands whatsoever, and refusing to bring any form of non-basic hate in is just, well.... not playing to win. Non-basic hate, be it stifle + wasteland, back to basics, price of progress, blood moon is one of the biggest things that keeps the meta in check. It's the reason people run basic lands. It's the reason you don't see 4 or 5 color decks all over the place. Non-basic hate wins match-ups that it shouldn't. It's that simple.
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The thing is that i want to be able to win a tournament. Not just my own Sliver deck or "my friends" if he is in same tournament. Blood Moon IS a bomb against them if i counter vial which they have excatly as much counter to protect it as i have my own to counter it. As this is competitive forum you always have to consider how your wastelanded-stifled NO RUG would deal with rest of field decks.
If the tournaments your going to are 10-12 person tournaments, than by all means, but in a few cards to combat Slivers if you know you'll face against him in the day.
However, if what your looking for is to play and win in a 70+ person tournament, worrying about Slivers is trivial. There's a reason it's rogue, and a reason it hasn't put up results every since Merfolk recieved Corralhelm Commander, because it's just worse against the rest of the field.
It can't beat Zoo, it can't be StoneBlade and it can't be Team America. Thats a very large portion of decks I would expect to face if I were to go to a large tournament.
Slivers might have better chance against mentioned decks that you think. Just might.
- vs Zoo Slivers can soon block cats, block Kotr with hibernation-bounche while countering and swording stuff while being protected vs burn removal. Vial would really help in this match up.
- vs Stoneblade i think 4 x Harmonic Sliver from sb might get some action going. Also sometimes Germ might be just too small.
- vs Team Amerika i humbly believe that they lose in creature fight similar as i do with NO RUG. Their wastelands can`t keep 2 mana slivers in various colours from raining down. Especially if they get Crystallic / Hibernation creature war goes very unfair since other can remove stuff and other can`t.
I have no proof/experience any data. But i still think it`s too harsh to say "It can`t beat these decks!" When it clearly has some tools to fight against. Zoo/burn seems quite hard that i admit but other 2 won`t as much.
Well before we steer away from Sliver discussion in NO RUG, I have a friend who I test with who plays Counter Slivers as a pet deck.
It's not good. It has the same disruption as Merfolk, but less synergy. The deck needs Crystaline Sliver to do anything. That is an inherint weakness of the deck. It's not going to win with a bunch of 2/2's or 3/3's backed by counter magic, because it has no back up plan from that line of attack.
It may steal a game or 2, but unlike Team America, NO RUG, Merfolk, Zoo, Maverick, or any good deck, it cannot shy away from attacking with dudes and counter things. If they land something you can't deal with, it's game over.
Dyne has it right, as he usually does :). If Counter-Slivers was good, it would be seeing play right now. The deck has an extremely predictable line of play and easily folds to combo. It had its place once, but unless we see more Slivers being printed, the deck has no new sources upon which to improve itself.
Any thoughts on Punishing/Grove in this deck? It works well in Zoo and No RUG topped in Spain i think with it in the main instead of Fire/Ice. Shuts down Merfolk alone as well as Batterskull token.
Well it completely dodges Misstep and dominates the most important creatures in todays legacy, i notice it every week in the current Stoneblade lists here in Europe, totally abusing the engine in combination with StP.
At least it's a more meaningful discussion than talking about counterslivers and i feel like it might be worth a shot. It makes Jace MD much more plausible and it doesn't counteract with the beatdown plan on Goofs, which are quite antisynergistic with Grim Lavamancer some times.
Very true.
Like I said, it's interesting and I'll probably test it.
The one nagging thing about adding it (and it may just be me on this) is that it takes away a lot of Blue sources, which make playing Jace in the MD even more bizarre.
But, it worked for him, so I may as well try it out.
because with counterspell they just counter your counterspell using their copy of counterspell
if you cast spell pierce you just pay the 2 mana
Counterspell can be used to counter the show and tell or the hivemind. Thus never getting you in real danger. However if you run spellpierce you can counter you own copy of the pacts on the stack.
So in a counter heavy deck you would go counterspell I guess to make your counter wall bigger and more resillient.
Said about Yawgmoth’s Will
Credits to Miraculous Recovery Signatures for the truly miraculous sig.
GURRUG Delver
RGoblins
RUGPunishing Balance
Modern:
UR Izzet Tron
Spell Pierec also stops both of those cards.......
In a nutshell, no, Spell Pierce is better. If they try and play around Pierce with SnT, then they have 5 mana and could hardcast Hive Mind soon anyways, but by trying to play around it, they give you more time to find Clique or to NO and blow up their lands (Terastadon)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavaging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
3 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
3 Stifle
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Cryrpt
1 Terastadon
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
MD looks fine, just a few preference things here and there.
Like myself, I woud cut a Goyf for a 4th Clique, but not everyone likes playing all 4.
I would also switch Fire/Ice to Ponder, but again, that's a preference to how I play the deck.
SB though, I have to ask what Stifle is for. If it's for against Hive Mind or Storm, I would say Spell Pierce will do a better job combating that.
And I prefer Relic to Crypt for Grave removal, but again, that's my preference.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Why Relic over Crypt? just because it can eat a card a turn?
That sounds really bad :$.
If you need something against Zoo, Submerge or Jitte should be your choice. And siding it in on the draw seems even worse, as it's strongest when your on the play. I don't get it.
Exactly. Against grave based decks you can eat away at their resources, or pop the whole thing and cantrip. Even for the mana, it's just outright better.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I had been hesitant to test relic as reseting my goyfs to 0/1s was the last thing i wanted to do, but I will test it out.
It's not like you side them in and use them against Merfolk lol.
You use them against decks like Lands, Dredge and Reanimator.
And let me tell you, having an 0/1 Goyf (after the combat step of course) is a lot better than staring down a loss next turn.
Plus MD Ooze helps handle all those strategies.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Kill them with Exalted Vendilion Cliques and Lightning Bolts, and side in Jaces. This is what I would do.
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NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Just attributing to the strength of Sylvan Library, and how much Scavenging Ooze would've helped him if he had it in the MD.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
My meta is infested -.-
Personally, I'm not a fan of fire//ice. It doesn't answer many things, and what it does answer is hardly going to be game breaking. Ice never seems like it's anywhere near as useful as fire, which is sub-par to lightning bolt and the blue count is plenty high for FoW.
3 MM is a flex build similar to 3 dazes, solely because 1 drops have much less impact on the game state as the game continues. Aether Vial is much less scary t5 than it is t1.
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Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
I've played against counter Slivers, they're strictly worse than Merfolk because they have absolutely no card advantage.
If your really worried about it, I would guess Firespout would do a good job.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
There "strictly" worse than Merfolk in the sense that if they do not resolve Aether Vial turn 1, any player with Wasteland can dictate their plays.
For instance, I could just as easily keep them off White as to make sure they have access to no removal and no Shroud. In a format somewhat defined by that card, it seems like a losing propostion to try and even play Slivers at any kind of tournament. It would strictly lose to Team America and Merfolk, not too mention it has the smae kind of problems as any tribal deck does against Zoo.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Like Dyne said, counter aether vial and it's a bad merfolk deck. Folk runs more lords than slivers, and has card advantage, Silvergil Adept. Merfolk also has Coralhelm Commander which can be a threat by its self. Slivers also don't get unblockable creatures against roughly 60% of the format. Other than that, use Engineered Explosives since the whole deck is 2cc, use firespout as you can hit 3 mana long before your buddy can get 3+ lords out, or since you said they don't run any basic lands, bring in Back to Basics. You have basics and Noble Hierarch to still play with.
Again, as Dyne previously pointed out, counter aether vial, and then waste their white sources. They only have 4 Crystalline Slivers and absolutely no manipulation to find them so I don't really see how your buddy can always have one. Heck another option would be to bring in a couple Thornwield Archer as he effectively stops Crystalline Sliver and/or Winged Sliver from swinging, and is guarenteed to trade 1 for 1. Slivers need to swarm to win, they absolutely need to, just remember that.
Maverick -- Storm
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Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Well I don't know what to tell you; you've asked for advise and people have given it. I guess the whole meta is just woefully ignorant to the fact that counter slivers is just such a good deck that nothing can stop it, and it's our fault for not placing the deck in the proven section.
You said that your friend's deck doesn't run any basics, right there you have a glaring weakness that's easy to exploit. Heck, up your basic land count to 4/5 and bring in blood moon. It might not be "ideal" for you, but it's impossible for your friend. What's your buddies deck gonna do with red mana??
I helped one of my friends build a counter sliver deck and I've played against it with many different decks. IMO, hibernation sliver is a sub-par card to run in the deck anyway. Sure it might be a little stronger now that it's got the image clone to add, but it's still a weak deck. The reason it's a weak deck, is that slivers are an extremely linear tribe, and absolutely have to swarm to win. They don't have the flexibility of merfolk, goblins, and elves, and do not recover well from wipe effects. They have 0 ways to cheat or reduce the cost of their creatures and are 100% reliant on an early aether vial to play competitively.
NO RUG should have a good match up against slivers. If you're running MM and FoW, there is no reason why they should resolve a vial without paying heavily in card advantage. Beyond that, board wipes flat out beat them. Run Engineered Explosives, set it at two, and win. Run firespout, and blast the creeps before they get to 4 toughness, which should be easy if you keep vial off the table. It's not a difficult match-up if you exploit the inherent weaknesses of the deck. Heck, consider adding in a Novablast Wurm if phantasmal image is eating your progenitus.
Long story short - competitive play (this forum) is about playing to win. It's not about playing what feels best, what looks the flashiest, what deck uses the most expensive cards; it's about winning. When a difficult deck/match up arrives, you look for two things:
1 - How is my deck weak against them and how are they exploiting that weakness; can I compensate for it?
2 - What is their deck's weakness and how can I exploit it?
IMO, hearing that your friend plays no basic lands whatsoever, and refusing to bring any form of non-basic hate in is just, well.... not playing to win. Non-basic hate, be it stifle + wasteland, back to basics, price of progress, blood moon is one of the biggest things that keeps the meta in check. It's the reason people run basic lands. It's the reason you don't see 4 or 5 color decks all over the place. Non-basic hate wins match-ups that it shouldn't. It's that simple.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
If the tournaments your going to are 10-12 person tournaments, than by all means, but in a few cards to combat Slivers if you know you'll face against him in the day.
However, if what your looking for is to play and win in a 70+ person tournament, worrying about Slivers is trivial. There's a reason it's rogue, and a reason it hasn't put up results every since Merfolk recieved Corralhelm Commander, because it's just worse against the rest of the field.
It can't beat Zoo, it can't be StoneBlade and it can't be Team America. Thats a very large portion of decks I would expect to face if I were to go to a large tournament.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Well before we steer away from Sliver discussion in NO RUG, I have a friend who I test with who plays Counter Slivers as a pet deck.
It's not good. It has the same disruption as Merfolk, but less synergy. The deck needs Crystaline Sliver to do anything. That is an inherint weakness of the deck. It's not going to win with a bunch of 2/2's or 3/3's backed by counter magic, because it has no back up plan from that line of attack.
It may steal a game or 2, but unlike Team America, NO RUG, Merfolk, Zoo, Maverick, or any good deck, it cannot shy away from attacking with dudes and counter things. If they land something you can't deal with, it's game over.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Now let's get back to NO RUG discussion
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Well, it's interesting, I'll give it that.
I just don't see how it's better than Grim Lavamancer in the matches we want to have it.
It definetly warrants some testing though.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Very true.
Like I said, it's interesting and I'll probably test it.
The one nagging thing about adding it (and it may just be me on this) is that it takes away a lot of Blue sources, which make playing Jace in the MD even more bizarre.
But, it worked for him, so I may as well try it out.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer