From my experience with combo elves anything that isn't working towards the singular goal of bum rushing your opponent or combing off and wing through that will only hinder the deck. The more non-elf thing you run the less effective your messengers are, which is why I always like to run fetch lands(with only 17 lands at that), when you glimpse then drop a messenger you want at least 3 elves going into your hand often it's 4 or 5. The non-elf thing I like are crossroads, symbiote, glimpse, library and of course emrakul(these being the most non-elf things I'd put in my deck). People knock crossroads but it wins games more often then not. Won me game against dredge, a game against cephalid breakfast I was in danger of decking myself before I drew into emrakul. With misstep being gone a giant warcaller is even more powerful.
from my comboelves tests during last month, if you would like to get wincon T2 (T3 at least), you should exclude elves with cmc more then 2 because often they could stop your combo fusion(Smessanger - strictly prohibited, EVisionary plays his role in combo much more better, even Regal because very often we need not only elves but additional Glimpse or alternative wincon as Banefire\Tendrils of Agony etc; EArchdruid is not so relevant; even Ezuri is much more useless in comparison with Joraga who could 1 - pump your elves if you sure you can win through final attack or 2 - be played as elf with 1 cmc under glimpse).
Regarding Monument - today's morning I was thinking about it also as alternative in SB against burn\perish.. Will run singleton in SB on the weekend' local tournament
from my comboelves tests during last month, if you would like to get wincon T2 (T3 at least), you should exclude elves with cmc more then 2 because often they could stop your combo fusion(Smessanger - strictly prohibited, EVisionary plays his role in combo much more better, even Regal because very often we need not only elves but additional Glimpse or alternative wincon as Banefire\Tendrils of Agony etc; EArchdruid is not so relevant; even Ezuri is much more useless in comparison with Joraga who could 1 - pump your elves if you sure you can win through final attack or 2 - be played as elf with 1 cmc under glimpse).
Regarding Monument - today's morning I was thinking about it also as alternative in SB against burn\perish.. Will run singleton in SB on the weekend' local tournament
Cool let us know how it performs. It seems good on paper however 5 might be one too many for a cmc, however, it might be fine due to amt. of mana ramp.
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Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Yesterday I played our local Free Play Tournament.
7 rounds.
I finished on the 2nd place.
1st place took comboelves too, BUT they lost mine (2-0, in fact they were slow in comparison with my buid).
I appeared on 2nd place due to I did not expect any affinity decks, and as result exclude all art-hate (just replace on combo-hate).. and have lost 2 games because of could not find the answers on the ECanonist =\...
Played against:
Dredge(2-0: 1 game - t2 = combofusion and tendrils storm on 24, 2 game - right sideboard=)),
Merfolks (2-0: weak opponent ),
Belcher (2-1: Mindbreak Traps - rulez!)),
Comboelves (2-0: too slow in comparison with my)
Affinity (1-2: after SB Canonist on turn2 broke both games for me..)
Affinity (2-0: Canonist did not come in time 8))
Boros (0-2: experienced pilot; 1 game - 1,2,3,4 turns a lot of LBolts and LHelixes with StPs in my relevant creatures, on t5 with 3 lands I believed that he spent all removal cards (he had 2 cards in hand) and risked to play Pact with hope on combo but he killed in resp my BRanger and I was dead on next turn=); second one he switched me off on the turn 2 by Canonist with GGuide, and killed by GG under jitte and sword)
About EMonument - on the last minute I decided to change him in SB on the Dauntless Escort due to monument's 5cmc and because Escort is a creature. Unfortunately I did not get any chances to test deck against perish\wrathes..
About Noxious Revival - it is good but not the great at the moment so I changed it on another wincon.
Also I added art hate in MB and SB, and now I have:
1 Fyndhorn->1 Zealot, NRevival->Brain Freeze, CoCalling -> GSZ(I think it will be better for searching parts of combo, and singltone will be enough)
Ametyst -> Creeping Corrosion against blades\equips and offcause affinity
PS sorry for mistakes=)
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-------------- Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
During tournament I mulled only twice due to the lack of lands in start hand.
1 forest\fetch on start hand is quite enough.
When I started to play with this type of deck, I used Emrakul only as most of deck lists.. but only one wincon is not good for legacy=) and I started to experiment with some cards from the old comboelfs deck lists. As a result I am sure that in my build Grapeshot and Tendrils is must have cards. And I can explain why:
Grapeshot - in fact, before grapeshot i used Banefire but Grapeshot has more options: hard to cancel due to storm, storm could be played at least on 5-6 starting from turn 2, this card not so as the wincon but for table's control - it is good removal for Tarmo\Reliquary\Confidant\Zoo\Goblins\Merfolks etc
Tendrils - it is most "weak" card in this build due to his mc(2B mana) and first candidate on switching off for SB after game1 . BUT till now always when I got it in hand it justified my hopes..
Brain Freeze - now it is not tested so under the question now.
By the way Birchlore Rangers are most useful in that case and should be 4 in this build.
From my practice I can confirm that 2 symbiotes is quite enough for their role in the deck (due to he is not an elf). If you use CoCalling - he could be much more useful(for convoke taps)- but I changed CoC on GSZ.
GSZ is moot point for comboelves:
- it is slow. If you play it when you under Glimpse's effect - it is additional 1g mana - so in most cases it could be sensitive and
-it is not compatible with Glimpse's draw ability.
- it is returned to the deck.
In that case Pact is much more better in this deck.
BUT I decided to add GSZ by singletone and will try to test him as a not so dangerous searcher for combo peaces or answers on some threats. I will test GSZ but the most potential candidates for substitution is 4 Pact or back to CoC or at least try to use 2nd Fauna Shaman..
GSZ it one of the best green cards from the last few years but not so good for this type of deck=)
Finally - the 1st reason why I added additional wincons - to diversify options for win.
Offcause - all above is my IMHO and I do not claim on the most powerful comboelves)))
By the way congrats comboelves - please correct me if I wrong - they have got 9th or 10th place on Star City Games Legacy Indianapolis this weekend
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-------------- Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
I can find the deck; but not any sort of tournament report. Can you link/summarize? It sounds ... amusing
It was one of the featured matches but basically g1 Merfolk attacks he goes to chump with a llanowar then crop rotations into a pendlehaven while fish had an open vial on the board more then ready to throw down a lord. Which of course he did.
Had he not done that he probably could have established board presence and might of glimpsed off.
looks interesting enough, yet I am not so found on cabal therapy... I mean, should't we go off as fast if not as faster then other combos?
Oh well, may still be an extra insurance agains other threats, I recognize this, not my style anyway.
How would the deck be nowadays?
Do you believe Mentor of the meek may be a new/partial draw engine? It looks good on paper...
I don't see why people like GSZ over Summoner's Pact. GSZ shuts down the combo unless you use it find a visionary for 3 mana. Pact does not shut down the combo and you can pretty much always afford 4 mana the next turn. Just looking for thoughts, because I see this in almost all of the lists I've looked at.
I don't see why people like GSZ over Summoner's Pact. GSZ shuts down the combo unless you use it find a visionary for 3 mana. Pact does not shut down the combo and you can pretty much always afford 4 mana the next turn. Just looking for thoughts, because I see this in almost all of the lists I've looked at.
I like it better before you go off to get another/the last piece of the combo if I cant go off that turn. It lets you go off much more easily the following turn instead of having to pay 4 plus go off, and if youre in your combo turn more often then not you can spare the mana to play it. Personally I play both cause GSZ is better than CoC and 4 search cards arent enough.
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Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
I love GSZ. But in Aggro\NO Elves, not in combo.
Absolutely agree with funkytomtom and could add:
- I think CoC vs. GSZ vs. SPact have different aims: CoC is quite good in careful play against mass removal (perish\deed\wrath\clysm), GSZ is the best tutor for G creatures I believe, when I use Pact usually it is the last turn for opponent.
But for comboelves GSZ in comparison with others has a few weak sides what makes combo slow.
I just describe my visions and you are free for comments=)
*GSZ vs SP: GSZ increases creature's cost on G
*GSZ vs SP vs CoC: GSZ is returned to the deck - for comboelves it is not good
*GSZ vs SP: Glimpse effect are not triggered with GSZ
*SP vs GSZ: I can tap\untap Sentinels with Pact twice and collect more mana
*SP vs GSZ: very often I need a G creature in hand and have 1 mana in pool
*GSZ vs SP: Usually I used GSZ to find combo piece, it took opponent additional turn to find the answers\kill me
*CoC vs GSZ: tutor with instant speed
Yes = SP provides us with quite extremely play but we should be faster then opponent or we will be dead
Now I play 4 SPacts and 1 CoC.
Instead of GSZ in this deck I choose Fauna Shaman singletone.
Yes = SP provides us with quite extremely play but we should be faster then opponent or we will be dead
Now I play 4 SPacts and 1 CoC.
Instead of GSZ in this deck I choose Fauna Shaman singletone.
It's not a question of one or the other - combo plays both; and needs both. Fauna Shaman is amazing; especially in aggro elves; but generally too slow for combo elves.
Guys, I'm a fairly new player to combo elves. Any insight on improving the Canadian thresh matchup would be amazing because I'm struggling with it. So far, I'm using 3 absolute law to combat lavamancer, bolts, fire/ice, but being a 2 drop it almost always gets countered. Also, could someone elaborate on how they use their vengevine board plan? What mu's do you bring it in? What cards do you board out?
(M:tG) It's a hobby which costs money. You can't play golf without the right clubs and a membership for the golf court, you can't play paintball with a cardboard armor and a sling, you can't go to the movies without paying for a ticket and you can't play Magic without owning the cards. Simple as that.
I would run less lands (generally 15-16 is the "normal" amount) and play 4 Zeniths. I personally play 4 zeniths and 4 pacts and have never wanted to play less. You ideally want to get your creature combos out as quick as humanly possible. Playing more search effects allows you to play only a singleton regal force as well.
I wouldn't play Grapeshot or Tendrils. If you're playing Emrakul, he's the only win condition you really need, and drawing tendrils or grapeshot early on is going to be a big problem for you. More or less, you don't need more than 1 win condition since you're drawing your deck anyway, and there aren't any decks that can deal with a hardcast emrakul + your entire deck of elves swinging at them on turn 2-3.
As for sideboard plans, Vengevine is the best card you can play against control decks. I had tried Natural Order from the sideboard against control decks quite a few times, but nothing gets around countermagic as well as the Vine does. If you're playing blue or black, intuition or buried alive can help get them into your graveyard for additional acceleration.
Personally, I like splashing blue more than splashing black since Chain of Vapor, intuition, and Flusterstorm are really nice cards to have access to in the sideboard, but a lot depends on your meta of course.
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Quote:
""infinite" combination of Nettle Sentinel and Hermitage Druid"
Don't you need all three of them?
How does it work?
Can't understand how this works with the stack.
Also, what would be the fastest way to win, anyone would have the time to explain turn by turn?
Also, when it says on a card you only play it once per turn, does that mean in total or per card.
You don't need all three on the board per se, although it helps, so long as you play enough elves to make up the difference. Furthermore, why are you confused on how it interacted with the stack, with glimpse resolved, you should be constantly drawing and playing elves, untapping nettle sentinel, allowing you to repeat the process
The fastest way to win depends on the build, all win cons can (in theory) go off turn 2.
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weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo
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Regarding Monument - today's morning I was thinking about it also as alternative in SB against burn\perish.. Will run singleton in SB on the weekend' local tournament
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
Cool let us know how it performs. It seems good on paper however 5 might be one too many for a cmc, however, it might be fine due to amt. of mana ramp.
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Multani's Acolyte
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Summoners Pact
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
2 Geae's Cradle
13 Forest
4 Deranged Hermit
3 Tribal Forcemage
3 Nature's Claim
1 Crop Rotation
4 Thorn of Amethyst
Its been working very very well.
Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
7 rounds.
I finished on the 2nd place.
1st place took comboelves too, BUT they lost mine (2-0, in fact they were slow in comparison with my buid).
I appeared on 2nd place due to I did not expect any affinity decks, and as result exclude all art-hate (just replace on combo-hate).. and have lost 2 games because of could not find the answers on the ECanonist =\...
Played against:
Dredge(2-0: 1 game - t2 = combofusion and tendrils storm on 24, 2 game - right sideboard=)),
Merfolks (2-0: weak opponent ),
Belcher (2-1: Mindbreak Traps - rulez!)),
Comboelves (2-0: too slow in comparison with my)
Affinity (1-2: after SB Canonist on turn2 broke both games for me..)
Affinity (2-0: Canonist did not come in time 8))
Boros (0-2: experienced pilot; 1 game - 1,2,3,4 turns a lot of LBolts and LHelixes with StPs in my relevant creatures, on t5 with 3 lands I believed that he spent all removal cards (he had 2 cards in hand) and risked to play Pact with hope on combo but he killed in resp my BRanger and I was dead on next turn=); second one he switched me off on the turn 2 by Canonist with GGuide, and killed by GG under jitte and sword)
My decklist was as below:
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Chord of Calling
1 Noxious Revival
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Misty Rainforest
9 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Null Rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
About EMonument - on the last minute I decided to change him in SB on the Dauntless Escort due to monument's 5cmc and because Escort is a creature. Unfortunately I did not get any chances to test deck against perish\wrathes..
About Noxious Revival - it is good but not the great at the moment so I changed it on another wincon.
Also I added art hate in MB and SB, and now I have:
3 Summoner's Pact
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Regal Force
1 Fauna Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Viridian Zealot
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
9 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
SB
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Null Rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Fyndhorn->1 Zealot, NRevival->Brain Freeze, CoCalling -> GSZ(I think it will be better for searching parts of combo, and singltone will be enough)
Ametyst -> Creeping Corrosion against blades\equips and offcause affinity
PS sorry for mistakes=)
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
1 forest\fetch on start hand is quite enough.
When I started to play with this type of deck, I used Emrakul only as most of deck lists.. but only one wincon is not good for legacy=) and I started to experiment with some cards from the old comboelfs deck lists. As a result I am sure that in my build Grapeshot and Tendrils is must have cards. And I can explain why:
Grapeshot - in fact, before grapeshot i used Banefire but Grapeshot has more options: hard to cancel due to storm, storm could be played at least on 5-6 starting from turn 2, this card not so as the wincon but for table's control - it is good removal for Tarmo\Reliquary\Confidant\Zoo\Goblins\Merfolks etc
Tendrils - it is most "weak" card in this build due to his mc(2B mana) and first candidate on switching off for SB after game1 . BUT till now always when I got it in hand it justified my hopes..
Brain Freeze - now it is not tested so under the question now.
By the way Birchlore Rangers are most useful in that case and should be 4 in this build.
From my practice I can confirm that 2 symbiotes is quite enough for their role in the deck (due to he is not an elf). If you use CoCalling - he could be much more useful(for convoke taps)- but I changed CoC on GSZ.
GSZ is moot point for comboelves:
- it is slow. If you play it when you under Glimpse's effect - it is additional 1g mana - so in most cases it could be sensitive and
-it is not compatible with Glimpse's draw ability.
- it is returned to the deck.
In that case Pact is much more better in this deck.
BUT I decided to add GSZ by singletone and will try to test him as a not so dangerous searcher for combo peaces or answers on some threats. I will test GSZ but the most potential candidates for substitution is 4 Pact or back to CoC or at least try to use 2nd Fauna Shaman..
GSZ it one of the best green cards from the last few years but not so good for this type of deck=)
Finally - the 1st reason why I added additional wincons - to diversify options for win.
Offcause - all above is my IMHO and I do not claim on the most powerful comboelves)))
By the way congrats comboelves - please correct me if I wrong - they have got 9th or 10th place on Star City Games Legacy Indianapolis this weekend
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
Just Update:
MB
Brain Freeze>Chord of Calling
SB
1 Swarm > Krosan Grip
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/3361#43579
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
I can find the deck; but not any sort of tournament report. Can you link/summarize? It sounds ... amusing
It was one of the featured matches but basically g1 Merfolk attacks he goes to chump with a llanowar then crop rotations into a pendlehaven while fish had an open vial on the board more then ready to throw down a lord. Which of course he did.
Had he not done that he probably could have established board presence and might of glimpsed off.
I don't see why people like GSZ over Summoner's Pact. GSZ shuts down the combo unless you use it find a visionary for 3 mana. Pact does not shut down the combo and you can pretty much always afford 4 mana the next turn. Just looking for thoughts, because I see this in almost all of the lists I've looked at.
I like it better before you go off to get another/the last piece of the combo if I cant go off that turn. It lets you go off much more easily the following turn instead of having to pay 4 plus go off, and if youre in your combo turn more often then not you can spare the mana to play it. Personally I play both cause GSZ is better than CoC and 4 search cards arent enough.
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
Absolutely agree with funkytomtom and could add:
- I think CoC vs. GSZ vs. SPact have different aims: CoC is quite good in careful play against mass removal (perish\deed\wrath\clysm), GSZ is the best tutor for G creatures I believe, when I use Pact usually it is the last turn for opponent.
But for comboelves GSZ in comparison with others has a few weak sides what makes combo slow.
I just describe my visions and you are free for comments=)
*GSZ vs SP: GSZ increases creature's cost on G
*GSZ vs SP vs CoC: GSZ is returned to the deck - for comboelves it is not good
*GSZ vs SP: Glimpse effect are not triggered with GSZ
*SP vs GSZ: I can tap\untap Sentinels with Pact twice and collect more mana
*SP vs GSZ: very often I need a G creature in hand and have 1 mana in pool
*GSZ vs SP: Usually I used GSZ to find combo piece, it took opponent additional turn to find the answers\kill me
*CoC vs GSZ: tutor with instant speed
Yes = SP provides us with quite extremely play but we should be faster then opponent or we will be dead
Now I play 4 SPacts and 1 CoC.
Instead of GSZ in this deck I choose Fauna Shaman singletone.
Playing Legacy:
Jund : Belcher (all variations) : Dredge (all variations)
==============
My altered works gallery and sellings
Small unblocked attacked turns into game win lololol
It's not a question of one or the other - combo plays both; and needs both. Fauna Shaman is amazing; especially in aggro elves; but generally too slow for combo elves.
The Absolute Law in the sideboard is interesting. I like the transitional sideboarding of black for the Vengevine kill.
Don't know why there hasn't been more discussion here lately. I should think we could take advantage of the misstepless meta.
14 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
Creature:
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Vengevine
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Cloudstone Curio
Sorcery:
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Primal Command
Enchantment:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Viridian Shaman
View the deck tech here.
What do you guys think of his list? Personally I would like Emrakul as a win condition.
Well, now I feel stupid
Buy Sell Thread
2x Gaea's Cradle
2x Taiga
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Misty Rainfores
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
18 LANDS
1 LEGENDARY CREATURE
4x LLanowar Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Priest of Titania
2x Birchlore Ranger
2x Quirion Ranger
1x Viridian Zealot
2x Regal Force
4x Wirewood Symbiote
29 CREATURES
3x Summoner's Pact
2x Green Sun Zenith
2x Crop Rotation
11 INSTANTS
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Grapeshot
2 SORCERIES
Still figuring our SB but looking at Buried Alive + Vengevine as alternative wincon combo.
How has this archetype been in a snapcaster control filled meta?
I wouldn't play Grapeshot or Tendrils. If you're playing Emrakul, he's the only win condition you really need, and drawing tendrils or grapeshot early on is going to be a big problem for you. More or less, you don't need more than 1 win condition since you're drawing your deck anyway, and there aren't any decks that can deal with a hardcast emrakul + your entire deck of elves swinging at them on turn 2-3.
As for sideboard plans, Vengevine is the best card you can play against control decks. I had tried Natural Order from the sideboard against control decks quite a few times, but nothing gets around countermagic as well as the Vine does. If you're playing blue or black, intuition or buried alive can help get them into your graveyard for additional acceleration.
Personally, I like splashing blue more than splashing black since Chain of Vapor, intuition, and Flusterstorm are really nice cards to have access to in the sideboard, but a lot depends on your meta of course.
You don't need all three on the board per se, although it helps, so long as you play enough elves to make up the difference. Furthermore, why are you confused on how it interacted with the stack, with glimpse resolved, you should be constantly drawing and playing elves, untapping nettle sentinel, allowing you to repeat the process
The fastest way to win depends on the build, all win cons can (in theory) go off turn 2.