MTG Salvation

Im going to a legacy tournament this weekend. Here is what I am running.



Any thoughts?

I ended up going 3-1 for the tournament. My only loss was to merfolk where he just has FoW each game. What Can I do.


I did manage to beat counter-top in the last round by getting the nuts in two of the games.

What about Pact of Negation or Autumn's Veil

What do people think about Artifact Blast in the Ingot Chewer slot?

@lyme, sideboard [cardpyroblast[/card] or guttural response. Those answer FoW. Pyroblast is better.

Quote from DigicoolDad

@lyme, sideboard [cardpyroblast[/card] or guttural response. Those answer FoW. Pyroblast is better.

I MD 3 Red Elemental Blasts. It's in my list

Didn't you lose because FoW? It'd be much easier to beat that with another couple counters at your disposal. What's in your sb for the wishes? You have like, four of everything. I'd sideboard one of a few of those mana gens in favor of a few more counter effects, when you're playing blue control/ anything blue.

Quote from DigicoolDad

Didn't you lose because FoW? It'd be much easier to beat that with another couple counters at your disposal. What's in your sb for the wishes? You have like, four of everything. I'd sideboard one of a few of those mana gens in favor of a few more counter effects, when you're playing blue control/ anything blue.

Is there a list that doesnt lose to FoW. It's clearly our worst matchup. I'm not sure what you are saying.

My side consisted of Xantid swarms and other cards to help me through the metagame.

Guttural response is terrible when I can play red elemental blast or pyroblast.

Just stating all viable optiona availible.
Clearly hardcore mono blue control is the biggest weakness. Easiest way to fight counterspells, is with counterspells.
In the first turn, they might be able to push out two fows, at most. More counter to counter their counter.
It only takes one turn for us. So fight fire with fire. You're playing an insane combo deck, it's fairly easy to draw them out.
What exactly is your entire sideboard?
Did I miss a post or something?
I also mentioned Pyroblasts and Guttural Responses because they are counter spells, that could be ran in the deck. I saw that you already had the r e blasts in your md. That's why I did not recommend it.
I also said pyroblasts are better than guttural response.
So, yea'...
I wouldn't md any counter effect unless I know I'm playing fow/hardcore mono u control. Just my two cents.
::cough::

DigicoolDad: Mono-Blue Control isn't even a competitive deck. You haven't produced very convincing evidence that running a lot of red counterspells is a good idea.

I do really like the Pyroblasts in the sideboard of the "stock" list (the list the primer currently gives). I proposed Artifact Blast over Ingot Chewer a page back, but no one seems to have any opinion they'd like to share.

Monoblue/any blue control was smashing me, in particular, Force of Will. Until I started sideboarding Red Elemental Blasts and until recently, Guttural Response. (I've switched back to Pyroblasts)
When they Force of Will my Charbelcher, or Empty the Warrens, it's usually easy for me to to counter it, if I sideboarded right.
I thought Lyme was having problems with people Force of Will-ing him. You know, like he posted.
I wouldn't main deck any of the those cards, like I said in my last post. ::cough:: That's also why I wanna know the sideboard. Maybe you didn't see that.
I also started with saying Pyroblast OR Guttural Responce, with the first being better. I used some kind of qualifier to distinguish that I was not meaning for lyme to use both. And even further said I wouldn't main deck any of those counter spells. Reread my posts.
I attribute this misunderstanding because you're just seeing the card names and assuming I mean for Lyme to add all these things to his main deck. That is not the case.
I don't know where you play Legacy, but MonoBlue is pretty friggin' tough. Did you see that High Tide deck earlier this week?
Besides Charbelcher (the deck) not producing 1 out of 5-6 times, I can make compelling points that Force of Will is the biggest problem it has. Seriously, google 'goblin charbelcher weakness'. Not only are counter heavy decks the biggest problem for Charbelcher, but probably the biggest problem for any combo deck.
Actually, looking at current Legacy tournament results, monoblue control is making a way bigger splash than Charbelcher...
All that aside, if sideboarded well, any of the three red counters has great potential to stop the Force of Will that would stop the combo. And that is what I'm saying. Fire with Fire. Counter vs Counter.
And although it may be an uphill battle, it's the only real solution to FoW/counter heavy decks. We have the card/reach advantage, in the small window of turns 1-2. Thus giving us a moderatly better statistical chance of drawing out more 1 cost red counters with two different red counters being out of the sideboad and in the deck, than our opponant could have more FoW and the additional cards to play it.
Come on! What's the easiest way to beat a control deck? With Control! And even though we can't outcontrol these decks after turn 3, it can still be done in that small window of turns 1-2, (on paper). Best PROVEN way to defeat fast control is with faster control, then a fast beatdown before they can recoupe.

Additionally, to assure no confusion is had, Red Elemental Blast is going to be a dead draw unless you are playing blue. I'd put the Xandtid Swarms in that slot, because it makes more sense to stop people from playing spells against you on your turn, and if they aren't playing blue you don't end up with a worthless card in your hand.

Artifact Blast is nice. I like it more, because on the rare occasion I'd be playing against indestructible Artifacts, we have the answer then and there. +getting rid of the problem before it starts, (i.e. countering any hateful combo/power artifact), seems way more valuble than playing the Chewer. I also can't remember playing the ingot for anything other than to simply remove an Artifact, and using its evoking ability to cast to boot.
so I guess it's a win/win for Artifact Blast from where I'm looking. I'm going to test this theory tomorrow when I go down to Gamerz Guild. I'm guessing it's going to be a positive change.

Okay I cant believe I'm actually responding to this drivel.

Quote from DigicoolDad

Didn't you lose because FoW? It'd be much easier to beat that with another couple counters at your disposal.

The deck looses to FoW (Terrible matchup. No amount of "counters" is gonna change that. Every pyroblast or guttural response just makes your deck even less consistent. The only reason to play this deck is because you can go off on turn 1. If you add more coutners you just water the whole deck down and allow your opponent to draw spell pierce, stifle, or daze.

Quote from DigicoolDad

What's in your sb for the wishes? You have like, four of everything. I'd sideboard one of a few of those mana gens in favor of a few more counter effects, when you're playing blue control/ anything blue.

Are you seriously asking what's in the sidboard for wishes!? Have you never played this deck! You wish for empty the warrens! It's funny that you took a while to even mention Xantid swarm. The best card against any blue deck, but continue to think that guttural response is even playable.

Additionally, to assure no confusion is had, Red Elemental Blast is going to be a dead draw unless you are playing blue.

The only reason it's maindeck is because of my meta and I can usually imprint it. It's not always a dead draw.

I don't always need an Empty the Warrens.
As I said, it would be an uphill battle.
If your meta meta calls for mding the reb, I apologize and agree with the need to md them.
Clearly you're not understanding this, so let me break it down, again:

Red Elemental Blast and Pryoblast are better than Guttural Response.
Even though it's an uphill battle, (like I said before), it can still be done.
On the same line, what's the only way to deal with FoWs being played, in general? Oh, more FoW or other counters. It's still hard. That's what uphill means. And really, do the math on paper. It's more likely you'd have more chance of aquiring more red spell counters with TWO (not three, again look at how I've ranked them) types sideboarded correctly into the deck, (within the first two turns). Additionally, past turn two in competitive Legacy or Vintage with Charbelcher generally means defeat for me. So even though Red Elemental Blasts and Pyroblasts are way better than Guttural Responses, it really makes little difference while being played. REB and the Pyroblasts are clearly better because you never know, but how often are you destroying blue permenants? So while they are clearly better than the responses, the guttural responses are still viable options if for whatever reason you can't run better two red counters.
Have you ever played the deck? You wish for Warrens, mana sources, or even... a Charblecher! That's the beauty of the Wish. You can get whatever you need.
That's why I keep asking about your sideboard.

I'll post my legacy charbelcher decklist in a little bit. Charbelcher has been loosing some steam in my competitive meta lately, because all the control. Although it doesn't always beat FoW, it's still about 50/50. Which isn't good enough for me, because I like to win. But in any case, FoW does not always beat me.
If you're playing the wishes to only grab the EtW, you're silly, and hope to play you one day to take advantage of your silliness.

DigicoolDad: I think you're conflating "Monoblue Control" (which I have never seen at any Legacy tournament) and "Force of Will" (which is common). It is well-known that Belcher struggles against decks with Force of Will. The stock list has 4x Xantid Swarm and 3x Pyroblast in the sideboard for this reason. Xantid Swarm effectively acts as a Duress effect (since they must counter the Swarm) and Pyroblast is an efficient answer once Force of Will is on the stack. I agree that running these cards in the sideboard is a very good idea. Are you advocating the allocation of more sideboard slots to cards like these? What cards would you use? You've admitted that Pyroblast is better than Gutteral Response and Red Elemental Blast. Would you cut wishboard cards? (Lyme has suggested that you don't understand the importance of the wishboard.)

I did say monoblue control meaning FoW, sorry for the confusion. However if you've never seen it ran in Legacy...
http://www.mistymountaingames.com/madison/


And I'm pretty sure that's the most recent, big Legacy event.
I have no idea how this was misconstrued, but I do not think Red Elemental Blasts are better than Guttural Responses and Pyroblasts. I think Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts are better than Guttural Responces.
Xantid Swarm + Pyroblast + Red Elemental blast gives you three options to answer fows with. If the only competition, within the meta, is FoW, then set your deck accorsingly. There might be other threats in his meta, but I only know of the fow threat.
In my expirience with most Legacy tournaments, (at lgs anyway), have been two or three people show up with real, legacy decks. The rest of the players play their best legal casual decks. Now I live in a slightly rural area, so the meta is small but consistant, so there might be more threats to deal with besides fow. If that's the case, and he is using the primer wishboard, there isn't gonna be a lot of room to add an additional red counter.
I have no idea what he's wishboarding. He has not said. Is he running the exact primer list? So until I know, I have no idea what to take out and what to put in. It seems to me if FoW is the only problem that's keeping you from winning, especially in ones own meta, set your md and sd around it. It's what I did. I have less things to worry about if only one thing is a threat.

Additionally, when I asked Lyme what he was wishing for, he only said Empty the Warrens.... which makes it seem that is the only thing he's wishing for... because it's the only thing he said.. meaning to me, it's his only wish card.

90% of the time Burning wish is for an empty the warrens. Other cards change depending on the meta.

Why is my sideboard important to you. I commented that I lost to a fish deck running FoW. And you replied with this

@lyme, sideboard pyroblast or guttural response. Those answer FoW. Pyroblast is better.

How often do people really wish for a pyroblast. The mana base for this deck is razor thin. You never have 3 mana just lying around to wish for a pyroblast and play it. Or am i missing something.

Nothing will change the fact that this deck will lose to a FoW most of the time. It's just the risk we take running Belcher. All we can hope for when playing those decks is that they keep a "slow" (spellpierce or daze) hand and we get the nuts and go off before them.

I wasn't meaning for you to wish the counters, but to sideboard them correctly, in the event you were playing fow. Didn't you just say a fish deck running fow?
I assumed you lost to the deck because Of the fow.
I agree, again, any deck running fow is the toughest matchup for charblecher. But there are semi-viable answers. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers or anything by responding to what I see you're posting. So if I see stuff like, 'i lost to fish running fow' whatever, I'm going to assume fow was the problem, nothing else.
I have never said any form of Charbelcher is 100% effective against FoW. I said I can beat FoW about half the time. I play to my meta. And if I'm raping all but decks running fow/heavy counters, I will adjust my dl accordinly.
Maybe you played in a bigger legacy tournament, or maybe the meta where you go to tournaments all run tier one decks. I don't know because you only have said what's been said. I'm attempting to help you, but can only work with the information I have.
if your sideboard is the same as the primer's stock, and you are playing against only tier one legacy decks, there is no reason to change anything.
Had I known either of things, I wouldn%t suggested anything. The deck would be running optimally.
but instead of answering a simple question that would have stopped any argument, you refused to answer for some reason. If you had, I think there is a good possibility that this conversation would not have went ten posts, lol. I also would have probably said, it's running optimally. I've been to invitationals and ptqs were FoW or one other card is hardly my only threat, but at most of the Legacy tournamnts I've been to, there are usually only a couple tier one decks being ran. And usually only tier one decks that run fow can beat my charbelcher.
I'm just trying to help, but you are not giving me the variables needed.
90% of the time, if I need to wish, it's just to add another couple mana to my pool, to make charbelcher kill. I run the Empty the Warrens as a secondary win condition. The goal is to get charbelcher off, and if that's not feesable then, and only then, do the Warrens come into play.

Quote from DigicoolDad

90% of the time, if I need to wish, it's just to add another couple mana to my pool, to make charbelcher kill.

? What does this mean?

just IMO, no mater how many counterspells your opponent have game 2 or not, if you are gonna go out, you're gonna go out.

sideboarding an REB or PYRO or whatever makes your deck inconsistent.

if i would be playing belcher, i would not dare SB a reb or pyro, i would put zanthid swarm instead.

as i never played a belcher deck but i've played against it, the deck would really rely on the player skill rather than the player would rely on the deck. just IMO. and im saying this though i play a blue based control deck.

Side out Empty the Warrens?

Quote from lyme

Side out Empty the Warrens?

oops, i edited my response. sorry, i was thinking about a different deck.

No, I have no idea what I was meaning in that quote. I think two sentences were merged in the draft by mistake. I wish for the warrens 90% of the time too, but not all the time.
Noone said anything about moving the Warrens around. Or moving anything around. The only thing I have done, have been suggesting a few cards and a posssible shifting, ONLY IF APPLICABLE TO THE CONDITIONS I WAS SAYING. This is silly, moving on..

Okay moving on.

Lets talk about what usually comes in vs. FoW decks.

4 X Xantid Swam
4 X Pyroblast

What usually comes out.

Street Wraiths, Manamorphose, what else?

if a player uses medling mage MB, the belcher player sides out ETW for Tendrils, i saw one work one time. i just got totally blown away. i use UW fish.

Don, That's exactly what I do, (which is why I still run lotsa black in my legacy charbelcher), and in other circumstances.
Lyme, Wraith's for Pyroblast, and I md the swarm the swarm to stop any possible flashing(and obviously a fow bait, but that is only applicable against fow)

I find I need the manamorphose's for the draw/filter as a very key part of winning with it, so I never take out my Manamorphose. I think also running more black than most is the cause of this, however.