MTG Salvation

In last week's legacy tournament I never went off on turn 1 or 2.

Perhaps you're not mulliganing aggressively enough? You don't keep hands that you don't think will be able to go off earlier than turn three.

Quote from thefringthing

Perhaps you're not mulliganing aggressively enough? You don't keep hands that you don't think will be able to go off earlier than turn three.

Does diminishing returns guarantee the turn 1 win?

Diminishing Returns belongs as a 1-of in the wishboard. Its purpose is to allow you to keep hands that go off with Burning Wish as the business spell in situations where you believe 12-14 goblin tokens won't get the job done.

Nothing guarantees winning on turn 1. If you're playing the deck correctly, however, you should be winning or losing no later than turn 3.

I'm gonna bite the bullet and run Belcher at Indy this up coming weekend

I regularly go for the turn 1 Belcher plan opposed to an army of goblins. Even when I'm stuck having to draw mana sources to activate it, if it's on the table I usually win anyway. It's all about resolving it to win, activating it is just a formality

Pretty easy getting a turn 1 Belcher out with this deck.. You'll need a belcher and cards.

If you are playing anything other then FoW, then I'd agree

Quote from ReinVos

I regularly go for the turn 1 Belcher plan opposed to an army of goblins. Even when I'm stuck having to draw mana sources to activate it, if it's on the table I usually win anyway. It's all about resolving it to win, activating it is just a formality

Pretty easy getting a turn 1 Belcher out with this deck.. You'll need a belcher and cards.

Quote from ReinVos

I regularly go for the turn 1 Belcher plan opposed to an army of goblins. Even when I'm stuck having to draw mana sources to activate it, if it's on the table I usually win anyway. It's all about resolving it to win, activating it is just a formality.

I usually ship back a seven- or six-card hand that can cast a Goblin Charbelcher but not activate it. My reasoning is that it's not safe at all to give most Legacy decks possibly three or four free turns to kill me. Waiting to go off ruins Belcher's singular advantage as a blazing-fast combo deck: going off now.

Couldn't we solidify the turn 1 win possibilities by having diminishing returns by going off into a huge storm/ win with 1st turn belcher activation. If you dont like the hand, burning wish away (with LED in hand) and go off.

have fun.

win.

Quote from JihadJoe

Couldn't we solidify the turn 1 win possibilities by having diminishing returns by going off into a huge storm/ win with 1st turn belcher activation. If you dont like the hand, burning wish away (with LED in hand) and go off.

Remember that you don't get to mulligan after you draw your seven from Diminishing Returns; you're as likely to whiff as you are to need to mulligan an opening seven. I think it's best to only cast Diminishing Returns when it's necessary to win.

I added a link in the Matchup Analysis section to a recent SCG article about decks to avoid in Legacy, which discusses some problems with Belcher.

I LOVE BELCHER!

Well, save for the Belchers, ETW and Burning Wishes the deck is all mana. You'll hardly be giving your opponent three or four turns. More like two?

Besides, it's uncounterable. You just need to activate it. Yes, he can counter your mana spells to keep you from activating it but you have eight spirit guides in the deck.

And against decks that might race you.. Well, there's not a lot we can do about that anyway. Because ETW will be just as slow/or even slower than waiting for mana to activate your belcher... you should not mull such a hand, you can practically then only mull into 7 mana and a belcher, which is unlikely.

I'd just go for it and hope to get lucky. Isn't this what the entire deck is about? The only difficult decisions you'll have to make is calculating your odds of drawing an out and calculating the odds that your goblins get the job done.

The actual chaining of spells becomes kind of mind numbing after a while. But there is some room for good decision making within this deck. You can even incorporate a belcher style that suits you or a metagame. Like taking a lot of chances when playing an unknown deck (knowing aggro is prevalent for example) or trying to trick them with storm (winning while he has protection).

I've won a funny mws game against a merfolk player who felt the constant need of revealing the many counters in his hand, provoking a scoop.
I killed him through ETW, he didn't know what he wanted to counter, careful of giving me storm. He got rolled while he had all the answers available to him.

Same goes for aggro match-ups. I often just throw a belcher out. They're not even close to killing me when I activate the thing.. Also, the most common artifact removal is often a turn too late.. Three mana on average for killing an artifact; Grip, Pridemage, Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse. Oops, Needle, pwned.. Haha, no, but yeah, it happens =(

But yeah, it's not at all uncommon to have the ideal hand of turn 1 Belcher, activate. I think this is the only deck who has such a high turn 1 percentage without having to be really good (like Spanish Inquisition, where the first turn win % mostly depends on the pilot).

Sufficient randomization puts a win con in our hand every time (statisticly 11/60) is excellent.


I feel like if you didnt get it to begin with,you just go at the gates.

hey guys, which build is currently more explosive, the one running 4 Street Wraiths or 4 Pyretic Rituals?
what is the current/common SB list used nowadays? I have not updated my list for some time now..
Has there been any card in SOM block that is worth running in the deck either main deck or sideboard?
and any advise on what SB list to use in a meta filled with blue?

thanks in advance..

oh yeah, i still do not understand how diminishing returns work. if I resolve it and get to draw 7, what if i do not draw another Burning wish? how can I get the Tendrils of Agony from my wish board?

Is Chrome Mox that good in this deck? I always feel like its removing two cards in hand for 1 mana if I'm going to do that I'd rather just play Chromatic Sphere or something. Anybody try R/G/U Belcher replace Bayou with a Tropical Island/Steam Vents and run 4 Spell Pierce or Daze in the SB for the CounterTop match ups.

Quote from xSuperZer0x

Is Chrome Mox that good in this deck? I always feel like its removing two cards in hand for 1 mana if I'm going to do that I'd rather just play Chromatic Sphere or something. Anybody try R/G/U Belcher replace Bayou with a Tropical Island/Steam Vents and run 4 Spell Pierce or Daze in the SB for the CounterTop match ups.

Part 1) Not sure about the chrome mox idea... I like it because it gives us mana on colors we choose, it ramps storm (as just a spell for zero) or potentially gives us that filter we want/1 mana we need to initially go off.


Part 2) Pyroblast is infinitely better as a sideboard (even maindeck option) for these reasons:

1) keeps us on colour
2) removes the need to fetch out a land/source (or waste a source) to counter a spell that could keep us back in tempo.

Quote from xSuperZer0x

Is Chrome Mox that good in this deck? I always feel like its removing two cards in hand for 1 mana if I'm going to do that I'd rather just play Chromatic Sphere or something. Anybody try R/G/U Belcher replace Bayou with a Tropical Island/Steam Vents and run 4 Spell Pierce or Daze in the SB for the CounterTop match ups.

Ya I think that you forget that you can cast it WITHOUT imprint. And also, if you need mana, it's just as good to exile a monkey to make your mox tapable.

Ok thanks and any news on the No-Land Build?

Well, having no lands opens up 5 slots. What would you put in them? Street Wraith?

Yeah why are we trying to go with 0 land again? 1 taiga is required in all lists IMO. Having a permanent mana source to answer hate is key. Taiga is this; and replacing the card is hard. What to replace it with anyways? Also, if you're taking out 5 initial mana sources you need 5 more initial mana sources/IMS. What do you propose to put in those slots? The deck is pretty consistent as it stands it can go off turn 1 about 80% of the time. As the saying goes if it ain't broke don't fix it I guess.

I am inclined to agree with the man above me....

1 land is best.

I just cut dark ritual and other things out because i felt like it stopped me from going off turn 1.

Can I get another example of a 1 land list?

Quote from P-E

and now with mox opal is there a way to improve grim monolith belcher ? with welder etc (a list some pages ago ^^)

There was some discussion of this type of build for Vintage at themanadrain.

Guttural Response answers Force of Will all day long.
I still have a teeny black spliced in for a first-second turn nasty tendrils of agony and dark ritual, naturally.
A lot of people say this deck is way too inconsistant to be competitive. I disagree. If you know your competitive meta, and use the wishes effectivly, 9o% chance of Charbelcher/win condition on first or second turn.
Manamorphose help me soooooooooooo much.
I've been running a variation of Charbelcher since Champions of Kamigawa, and it has only gotten better.

I see no real reason to run Guttural Response over Pyroblast.
Guttural Response's benefit is that it can be cast with either red or green mana, but we usually be casting our business spells with red mana. Pyroblast can additionally be used to destroy a blue permanent or to increase the storm count.

I agree fully, and will be switching out the guttural responses asap.
I weighed the options when guttural response came out, but for some reason thought g or r outweighed destroying a permanent. In the past couple years since it was released, if and when I need to play it, producing r or g makes little to no difference.
::head nod::

I saw somebody playing Autumn's Veil MB today.