MTG Salvation

Quote from tescrin

As an aside, any deck running black has a much easier time killing Prog than tokens. The myriad of edicts, the prolific use of Liliana + DRS, the fact that Perish and Virtue's Ruin hit's him, Dystopia, etc.. I don't think he's half as safe as the token route.

Token's go off with a mere 4 mana and have to be countered in the same number of turns, but really are only countered by token decks, ratchet bomb/EE/Keg (which aren't *as* prolific, and not in the MB.)

This deck *cannot* do as well as belcher in any meta where G/B decks are alive and kicking; which are most metas. This is why Sneak/Show exists; so you get the hit in from your fat before main-deck answers come into it. Emmy is almost as protected as Prog, except he wins the turn he swings; unsure why you'd chance 2-turns just to block Oring/etc..

I'd MB Emmy with SB Prog if you go with this plan; that way you can swap in prog when they swap in ORings/Despair/Rider.

Liliana is a legitimate concern when you go on the Proggy plan; heck, even if you're on the Belcher plan and just not Turn 1'ing, you either Force her or lose. On the other hand, I don't think those types of decks are all that prominent. I'm seeing one Pox style deck in recent SCG Opens, from early September, so almost 2 months ago.

Second of all, I don't agree that this build is strictly worse than typical Belcher against those decks. I'm pretty sure B/x decks are going to side out edicts against any BELCHER build for more Turn 1 Discard, even if they know that Belcher deck has potential for SnT. Even if they don't, that leaves them having to make choices about which plan they should attack, on top of which normal Belcher had to fight through discard while this list has Brainstorms.

Finally, if your concern is black edicts I'm not sure why swapping to Emmy would help. They both die to the same edicts, while Proggy pitches to Force, gets fetched by Pact, and goes under Chrome Mox. Proggy still seems the superior choice when talking specifically about edicts.

First, I'm not citing Pox decks. If you look at Deathblade, BW Stoneblade, Deadguy, Jund, etc, they all run (at least sometimes) DRS and Lily. The T2 lily is a good play anyway and it's Maindeckable and it's a hand someone is likely to keep.

The Emmy comment has to do with the fact that he only has to survive 1 attack vs. 2 attacks. Why? Because only Pox decks (most of the time) run Innocent Blood, but everyone runs Lily. Emmy means you lose your mana to cast lily or another edict unless you happen to be an IBlood deck and get lucky. The reason Emmy matters is that if they *didn't* keep a hand that had her or another edict, then they get 1-less turn to find one (at least due to being able to actually cast/use it.)

Tokens are, otoh rarely countered main-deck and even less so by keepable hands. Pernicious deed can hit them; but in the worst case scenario those are the same decks running Lily, but to a smaller degree (as DRS into deed is mediocre at best.

A deck siding against belcher have few choices to make. They drop 2,3, or even 4-drops that they won't need/use for EE, Keg, or Bomb, or a cheap wrath effect. They then drop more of those for discard, counters, needles, or revokers. In the case of seeing S&T they'd maybe side in edicts if they have any.

Edict may be in less colors, but my point has to do with the number of decks that maindeck and gun for an early game liliana of the veil; which with DRS happens easily on T2.

All of this is reasonable, except it still doesn't make a SnT list strictly worse in those matchups. They side in more discard, plus token hate, plus SnT hate. Now, which do they keep in their 7? Because they just sided in an awful lot of stuff.

If it's discard, we are on even footing with regular Belcher, i.e. equally disrupted (even though we actually have the advantages of Brainstorm and Force here).

If it's edicts, we are better off than regular Belcher if we are on the Belcher plan, because their hate is useless (assuming they would not even have edicts vs Belcher, but would mull to discard/tokenhate), and worse off if we are on the Proggy plan. Then, we have outs in the form of just playing a Cantor or Wall, or having Fow backup.

If they keep tokenhate, then we just roflstomp them.

If they keep multiple types of hate, well, we just hope for the best. But we atill aren't in a strictly worse position than typical Belcher. At the very least, 7 dig spells and 8 free cantrips means the Blue list can rebuild much better.

Quote from tescrin

If you look at Deathblade, BW Stoneblade, Deadguy, Jund, etc, they all run (at least sometimes) DRS and Lily.

All those decks have been on the decline or are not placing very well at recent events. The deck you should really be concerned with is Shardless BUG, running discard, counters, DRS and Liliana. That deck is still quite prevalent.

Finally got my Taiga! Not I got to pawn my Stomping Ground off on someone. LOL. It feels better with Taiga since it is the only white border card in the deck it becomes faster to find when I Land Grant or belch for the win. Plus it looks cooler than Stomping Ground.

Has anyone experimented with a purphros in the deck?
It's alot like goblin war strike when you're going off with empty. It also turn spirit guides and walls into non targeted shocks to the dome.

Going that route seems like a whole lot more work for the kill.

Quote from BMB01758

I was looking to build a legacy goblin deck and I have a full playset of LEDs and Burning Wishes. Can you send me a pm with what you have so far for the Goblin Deck and we might be able to work out a trade? If you have any Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, that'll be important too.

That being said, if you got the LEDs, which you desperately need to make any Belcher list function, then you'd also need a playset of Burning Wish to act as another set of win conditions. 8 is too few to be consistent enough to avoid mulligans. The burning wish cards also have tremendous synergy with LED.

Without (4) LEDs and (3-4) Burning Wishes, the list isn't quite explosive enough to be competitive.

Taiga is also a natural improvement over Stomping Ground, but for the purposes of this deck completely unnecessary.

Otherwise I don't see too many problems. Removing 7-8 cards to add the LEDs and Burning Wishes. I would remove the Street Wraiths, 1 EtW to the Wishboard, 1-2 ritual, and 2-3 Tinder Walls.

2 Tinder Walls in hand are often difficult to cast, but 1 is easy.

Love Belcher. It's consistency is undeniable.

Best wishes mate.

This list is actually very explosive still, it is just more "ETW Storm" than "Belcher" The LEDs will be my first purchase after I finish the deck. I'm actually trying to make it to GP DC with this. Hopefully I can get it done by then, but I'm not getting a board put together yet as I don't feel comfortable enough sideboarding with the deck and not screwing up the whole thing the deck does. Does anyone have any tips on boarding in different common matchups?

So, my girlfriend played Blue Belcher at weekly Legacy this Sunday. I'll give as much breakdown as I know from her matchups:

Round 1 - Burn

Burn player gets toasted. I didn't see the first win, but I assume it was Belcher. The next win came from a giant, ten-headed lump of fat.

Round 2 - Maverick

I had just played against this guy, so I knew what was up. Game one she apparently Belches him. I didn't see game 2, but I walk over to Game three to see a Belcher in play, 2 LEDs and a Petal in hand, and a Chalice@0 on the table. As she struggles to find Spirit Guides, the Maverick player and I explain that if she is on the play and suspects Chalice, she should dump mana immediately.

Round 3 - U/x

I only saw game 3 again, so I'm not sure of the colors. More important is that she got to game 3, and from what her opponent was saying, Game 2 was pretty close. She fires off. Show and Tell gets Forced, which she then Forces back, and he has a second one to back it up. She is still holding Belcher, and both players have no hands. They each proceed to Ponder and Brainstorm for several turns, and the control player finds gas before my girlfriend finds 6 mana. I might have made some different choices with the Ponders she saw, but with the game being so chaotic it's impossible to say whether it would've worked.

I did in fact check her sideboard, and remind her that Pact is supposed to come in against Blue decks. She doesn't like sideboarding any more than I do.

Round 4 - Pox

Turn 1 SnT Belcher. The Pox player is impressed, but not phazed. Though he is sad to be facing Belcher and not running blue.

Game 2 he throws back a couple hands looking for discard, Turn 1 Duress is Forced and he scoops.


All in all, people were inpressed. The deck was still significantly fast and smooth, and the permission, dig power, and lines of play through SnT were pretty relevant. My girlfriend understands the lines if play very well, but gets flustered in real matches for some reason. With some practice running the deck, she could probably have gone 4-0 or 3-1 handily.

The list she ran was on the previous page, the list+SB looks like this:



The sideboard obviously isn't complete, but I feel like these are the absolute necessities. Empty the Warrens is slightly less needed than typical Belcher, given the SnT-->Proggy line, and somewht harder time Storming effectively, but it is of course always an option.

Progenitus is incredibly flexible. He pitches to Force, wins games, or goes under Chrome. Summoner's Pact is even MORE flexible, since it can do all of these things (by virtue of fetching Proggy) and also colorfix with Cantor, make mana with ESG, and be a ritual with Tinder Wall.

So, you have 4 "extra" Blue cards that sneakily pitch to Force, a strong alternate gameplan that also assists your real game (SnT=+1 mana for Belcher AND forces them to counter it and let you keep Belcher to try again), and you round it out with 7-8 powerful dig spells, which are just really, really good in any combo deck that can make blue mana reliably. I have had so many iffy hands become Turn 1s from Brainstorm.

Something to keep in mind is that, as far as SnT is concerned, you are running 6 Proggy maindeck. Pacting for Proggy before SnT leaves you a trigger next turn, yes. But SnT+Pact trigger costs a very familiar amount of mana. Then, if Proggy is a good plan for this particular matchup, you can side in the full force game 2.

Sadly, we (my gf and I) will not be able to play this deck reliably. Forces, LEDs, and SnTs are far outside our price range, and we had to borrow them. I wish we could play it more often; I really want a go with it, it is so much fun to play.

Yes, very early versions ran Grant+Trop. It got in the way more than it helped. IMO the deck runs smoother without it.

serenechaos, what do you think about Griselbrand as an alternate SnT target? Vintage and ANT show that he's nuts in a deck with IMS's. However, he isn't blue and looks worse on a Chrome Mox.

Quote from Lectrys

However, he isn't blue and looks worse on a Chrome Mox.

These are the only reasons I did not include him instead of/in addition to Proggy. Unfetchable with Pact, not Blue for Force, and not very pretty under Chrome. It doesn't offer enough of an advantage over Proggy after landing, I don't think, to include. Essentially, it has the potential (pretty high potential) to instawin, while Proggy has to swing twice, and it is also good gainst ALL removal (even edicts). But it's too dead pre-SnT while Proggy is very much alive all of the time and virtually guaranteed to win.

I just tested the blue belcher list and while interesting, I kept just fizzling out a little too much. I'll keep goldfishing as the brew seems like its close to viable. Dont be surprised if you randomly hear about it....

Quote from Macius

I just tested the blue belcher list and while interesting, I kept just fizzling out a little too much. I'll keep goldfishing as the brew seems like its close to viable. Dont be surprised if you randomly hear about it....

This build shouldn't really "fizzle"; you can either count to seven or you can't, it just doesn't push the first turn quite as hard.

That being said, decisions are kind of hard here. Some hands look keepable but actually don't do enough. Some Brainstorms are tricky. Sometimes you have SnT+Pact, but don't notice that you have the 4 mana.

As mentioned on the previous page, my record with this deck against control is decently impressive (for being Belcher vs. Blue), and other decks don't hold much that scares Belcher anyway.

I'm curious what problems you had and what you think should be changed or tweaked.

Quote from rahzark

Isn't Preordain better than Brainstorm in this list? I know you can sometimes hide stuff from discard, but the fact that you get stuck with Brainstorm cards on top of the library makes it seem worse imo

They do different things; Preordain functions more like Ponder, in that it gets you one new card. If you need one card to finish your hand, it's perfect. If you have a turn or two to set up, it's perfect. But if you're, say, two mana down, Ponder cannot help you, while Brainstorm could. Brainstorm is useful when you need to find more than one thing, or you need to find something right now.

I could definitely see Preordain being tested, however. The double-self-Time Walk has bitten me many times.

My friends have suggested Burning Wish strongly, and I agree it could have a very good place here. I'm really just not sure where to put it. Even though it can fetch SnT, I don't want to bring them all to the board, because I need to keep critical mass for FoW. I suppose it might be feasible to cut some Ponders/Brainstorms and still have 20ish blue cards?

One of the main issues I still keep noticing in the blue build (at least on 'trice) is that there are a lot of hands where I get something like

2x LED, 2x Summoner's Pact, SSG, ESG, Chrome Mox
or
SnT, Proggy, 2x LED, Force, SSG, Cantor

Its either all gas or all ammo.

Quote from Macius

One of the main issues I still keep noticing in the blue build (at least on 'trice) is that there are a lot of hands where I get something like

2x LED, 2x Summoner's Pact, SSG, ESG, Chrome Mox
or
SnT, Proggy, 2x LED, Force, SSG, Cantor

Its either all gas or all ammo.

Hmm. I'm not entirely sure what to make of that. Adding more of either doesn't seem like it would help, have Ponder and Brainstorm not mitigated hands like this somewhat?

Also, I don't know how much you've been toying with it, but how do you feel about BS vs. Preordain? How about the cantrip numbers in general (for instance, would you go to 4/4, cut down to 4/2 or 3/3, keep it where it is)?

Here is my current list, works exceedingly well.

@ Trall

If you want, you could do the recross the paths version. Check this link: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25698-Primer-Deck-Belcher&p=785626&viewfull=1#post785626

I suppose this could work as a transformational sb in the wishless version in the sideboard since you play the required 12 cantrips main.

Or in the version with wishes, you could side in 4 cantrips, 3 recross the paths, 1 meditate. This takes up alot of sb space though and you're giving up an anti-blue sb.

Oh and I love your belcher analysis!!! Amazing work.

Not so quick tournament report from my first tournament with Belcher.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
1 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Gutterual Response
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Forest

Round 1 – BYE Anwar playing EVA Green (had a bye but Dave forgot to sign Anwar up)
Anwar wins the dice roll and we both keep our opening hand

Game 1 – He plays a polluted delta, and cracks into a swamp and lays down a Deathrite Shaman. On my turn I Gitaxian Probe and see a bunch of lands, Sink Hole, hymn and Tarmogoyf. I make seven mana then lay down belcher and activate. Bang

Sideboard - +1 Forest, +3 Reforge the Soul, – 4 Street Wraith

Game 2 – I keep and Anwar mulligans to 6. His first turn was a Dark Ritual into Hymn, getting Rite of Flame and Pyretic Ritual. During my turn I start off with Land Grant for Taiga and play Rite of Flame, in response I get my ROF surgical extraction keeping the belcher stuck in my hand. I pass. He draws and plays Tarmogoyf. I draw a 2nd belcher for the turn and pass back. He draws and cabal therapies me naming Goblin Charbelcher, the following turn he drops a hippy, and I lose. 

Sideboard – No change

Game 3 – we both keep and I start with a probe, and see five lands, a golgari charm, and hymn. I guess the ETW I keeped won’t be good enough, pass. Anwar plays a land and cabal therapies me naming belcher. I play LED, Land and chrome mox on my turn. On Anwar’s next turn I get hymned and loose both my rituals keeping ETW and Reforge the Soul in my hand. Draw ETW pass. He draws and drops Tarmogoyf. I draw and pass, he draws and swings in for 5. I draw and pass. He hymns me again and swings for 5. I draw and pass. He draws and swings for 5 and knocks me down to three. I draw and miracle a Reforge the Soul, paying the cost by cracking LED. I draw a pretty good hand with probe rituals and ETW. I probe down to one and see that he drew the other Golgari Charm, crap I didn’t draw a betcher and drew the ETW. Land grant for the forest then hard cast a ESG for chump blocking duty. Next turn the ESG dies to an attacking Tarmogoyf. Then Anwar drops a Tombstalker and another tarmogoyf, flash back both cabal therapies naming belcher and pyretic ritual. It didn’t matter as I didn’t draw the belcher on my turn and I succumb to the Tombstallker next turn

Looking back at it I would have side boarded differently. But this was the only really interesting match of the day.

I would of do this +3 Reforge – 1 LED, Warrens, - Street Wraith.

0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 – Travis playing Merfolk

Travis wins the dice roll and I mulligan my opening hand.

Game one – Travis Plays Island go. I make eight goblins and pass the turn. He plays a Silvergill Adept and passes. I attack, no block and pass. On his turn he drops a lord. I attack and make six more goblins that seal the deal.

Sideboard +4 Xantid Swarm, - 3 LED, -1 Street Wraith

Game two – I mull to six and my opponent drops a Cursecather. I lay out a Petal then use land grant to get a Taiga, I hold the taiga and drop a Chome mox exiling a second Land Grant to drop a turn one swarm. My opponent makes another Cursecatcher. I draw and attack with swarm, trigger, exile two SSG play taiga and cast Belcher. My Taiga gets wastelanded and the rest of the game is pretty much me blanking by promptly draw all my kill conditions as I lose to a lord and three Cursecatchers. 

Sideboard – No Change

Game 3 – I make 10 goblins on my first turn. He had two dazes. GG

1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 – Dustin with Deadguy Ale

Game one – we both keep and I make 16 goblins on turn 1. GG

Sideboard - +3 Reforge the Soul, -1LED, -1 Street Wraith, - Empty the Warrens

Game two – I keep and he mull’s. Plains and a mom are his first plays. I make a belcher. He drops a canonist. I make a tinder wall. He makes a bob. I activate belcher. My Taiga was the bottom card.

2-1 (5-3)

Round 4 – Chris with UWR delver

We both keep. And I lose the die roll

Game 1 - Turn volcanic island go. I make a Chrome Mox that gets Spell Pierced, OK. Then proceed to make 12 goblins. He can’t keep up.

Sideboard- +2 Gutteral Response, +2 Red Elemental Blast, -3 LED, -1 Street Wraith

Game 2 – He mulls to six. He makes turn one tundra. I make 10 goblins. He forced the wrong card tossing daze. I sequenced my spells in a way to prevent the blow out, if he force my ritual that go me to 3 mana he would have stopped me for a turn, but the following turn I would have dropped a belcher so I think I was a lock to win this game. Regardless he can’t deal with the goblins

3-1 (7-3)

Not my deck but from SCG Seattle Legacy yesterday


Jeremy Chestnut
19th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/16/2014



Hadn't seen Bribery as part of the wish board before, plus adding Carpet of Flowers in place of 2 Xantid Swarm seems like a good choice