MTG Salvation

Quote from andrebonotto

Hey, congrats for your performance!

Were you already expecting a combo metagame?

Do you play Belcher regardless of the metagame, or do you change your deck if you guess the environment will be tough for it?

It is currently the only deck I own. I am building Dredge and Solidarity.

With win-a-boxes, Storm is always a solid choice. I expected some, and I know Belcher is just faster.

To the best I can answer, the viriginia meta is mainly control, but in saying that its shifted to deathblade and decks running forces in the side. The next deck im seeing in spades is goblins, which barring 1 card, belcher can win handily.

what do you guys think of a monoR version of belcher?
goblin bushwhacker gives a faster clock. the only thing the deck actually loses are initial mana sources from elvish spirit guide and side deck options, although opening space for 8 R counterspells is pretty nice.

Quote from Eclipsebolt

what do you guys think of a monoR version of belcher? (...)

andrebonotto's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 young pyromancer	4 goblin bushwhacker 2 battle hymn	4 land grant	1 mountain

You know that Land Grant cannot grab a basic Mountain, right?

I guess you could be playing it just to add storm count, but I don't know how good it would be for that (tell us that, if you have success with it).

If it was just for the EtWs and Bushwackers, I would suggest Brightstone Ritual over Battle Hymn, but I see that Young Pyromancer will get you a bunch of elementals, so your option will probably be better here.


...

By the way, thanks mafteechr for your reply and Macius for his comment.

I asked that (about the metagame) because I was thinking of considering my Belcher deck sort of an "opportunity deck" - i.e., a deck to "secretely" bring in my backpack to tournaments, besides other deck, and if I see there that there aren't many disruption decks around, then play the Belcher; otherwise, don't.

I thought so after selecting it to bring to a tournament (one on which I expected that would be a predominance of Storm decks) and unexpectedly get crushed by Control decks.

I don't know if it is a good approach to the deck, though...

I play the wishless belcher build. I built it to save on the 1 extra LED and the 4 wishes. Sideboard has always been 15 Islands from beta. Now I'm actually starting to build a sideboard. Main concerns I have is:

1) have some out against blue
2) have an out against CotV
3) have an out against LoS

With that in mind I threw this together on a scrap of paper and before I spend the maybe $10 on it, I want some input as to the relevance of the board.



Wondering if anyone else has experience with a similar sideboard.

Now that the Legendary rules has changed, Mox Opal doesn't become a viable option?

I know that seems a strange choice, but Burning Tree Emissary and Deathrite Shaman sounds interesting for me. The first one fix your G mana with RR, when you have Tinder Wall or Xantid Swarm in game 2 and no green source to cast and can be "stormed" in multiples (with EtW seems awesome). And with the popularity of fetch lands, Shaman can be a Birds for free that helps against Reanimator/Dredge, blocks Lackey, punishes control (Mox imprinting Street Wraith FTW)..

Quote from Giggs

Now that the Legendary rules has changed, Mox Opal doesn't become a viable option?

I know that seems a strange choice, but Burning Tree Emissary and Deathrite Shaman sounds interesting for me. The first one fix your G mana with RR, when you have Tinder Wall or Xantid Swarm in game 2 and no green source to cast and can be "stormed" in multiples (with EtW seems awesome). And with the popularity of fetch lands, Shaman can be a Birds for free that helps against Reanimator/Dredge, blocks Lackey, punishes control (Mox imprinting Street Wraith FTW)..

Mox Opal was discussed on The Source and ultimately dismissed. You're not running enough artifacts in the end.

Burning-Tree Emissary is a strictly worse Manamorphose, a card I don't like to begin with (though I'm the minority on that opinion).

Deathrite Shaman doesn't do immediately, so it slows our deck down. Also, if you're trying to exile things other than lands, you're using mana you should be using to storm with.

So here is my final build as of now.


The sideboard is unfinished but probably going to be that or a close approximation. As for Stomping Ground, well, I actually forgot to get Taiga when I built the deck so I took about $15 and grabbed a Stomping ground till I save up the money for Taiga.

So far the deck hasn't given me any problems I like it the way it is. I myself don't mind Manamorphose. Sometimes it just does nothing, other times I cast rite of flame and funnel it into 2 green mana and cast 2 tinder walls, and other times it adds 3+ to storm.

Quote from fallen_angel_poet2000

So here is my final build as of now.

astormbrewing's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Artifact: 4 Chrome Mox 4 Goblin Charbelcher 3 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Lotus Petal Creature: 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Simian Spirit Guide 4 Tinder Wall 4 Street Wraith	Instant: 12 4 Desperate Ritual 4 Pyretic Ritual 4 Manamorphose Land: 1 1 Stomping Ground Sorcery: 4 Empty the Warrens 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Land Grant 4 Rite of Flame	Side Board: 4 Reverant Silence 3 Shattering Spree 2 Pyroblast 3 Red Elenental Blast 3 Xantid Swarm

The sideboard is unfinished but probably going to be that or a close approximation. As for Stomping Ground, well, I actually forgot to get Taiga when I built the deck so I took about $15 and grabbed a Stomping ground till I save up the money for Taiga.

So far the deck hasn't given me any problems I like it the way it is. I myself don't mind Manamorphose. Sometimes it just does nothing, other times I cast rite of flame and funnel it into 2 green mana and cast 2 tinder walls, and other times it adds 3+ to storm.

Why 3 LED? Money?

Street Wraith seems like an actual complete waste of space. What does it do? You never cast it. It doesn't add to storm. You wouldn't keep a hand with Street Wraith and no win condition and hope to cycle into a win condition. Most times that you cycle it you will get a mana source. Why not just run Seething Song instead? I'd rather just have the explosive mana source rather than risk cycling into a win condition when you need a mana source.

I like the idea of having 12 cantrips in the deck. 4 probe, 4 street wraith, and 4 manamorphose. You are right in the fact that I never cast it. but it suits my personal playstyle.

Why 3 LED? Money is the correct answer. But for me the deck works.

Does Street Wraith win games alone? NO. But even if it were another explosive mana source, the hands with him that I would mulligan would still be a mulligan 90% of the time.

Plus, for me, it makes boarding for games 2 and 3 easier. I'm not the best player so any help in making a decision on what to take out helps a lot.

Quote from fallen_angel_poet2000

I like the idea of having 12 cantrips in the deck. 4 probe, 4 street wraith, and 4 manamorphose. You are right in the fact that I never cast it. but it suits my personal playstyle.

Why 3 LED? Money is the correct answer. But for me the deck works.

Does Street Wraith win games alone? NO. But even if it were another explosive mana source, the hands with him that I would mulligan would still be a mulligan 90% of the time.

Plus, for me, it makes boarding for games 2 and 3 easier. I'm not the best player so any help in making a decision on what to take out helps a lot.

I would just replace the Street Wraiths with Seething Songs. I don't like Spree or Silence in the sideboard, since you should just be focusing on winning and not being slow. You just want 4x Carpet of Flowers for decks with Islands and 4x Pyroblast (not REB*) for decks with Force of Will/Mindbreak Trap. The other 7 cards are irrelevant in a Wish-less build.

*Maximize Pyroblast and don't play REB. You can cast Pyroblast targeting any permanent (or spell), not just blue ones. Thus, if you have it in your hand and have an extra mana while storming, you can cast it for storm. With REB, the permanent (or spell) HAS to be blue.

So if the other 7 cards are irrelevant, What should they be?

If I play a match and not mull because I have belcher and the mana to cast and activate and after we both decide to keep my opponent drops Leyline of Sanctity Do I fold or hope I can find EtW within time? That is why I'm thinking of Reverent Silence in the board.

Possibly going to a board like this



Would that be a more competitive board to deal with CotV, LoS, and blue decks in general?

Why are people cutting manamorphose? The main reason it's in the deck is because it's a free cantrip that ups your storm count. The mana fixing is just gravy.

Is seething song a staple now? I'm seeing it in a lot of lists. How good is it since it's kind of difficult to cast?

I might try cutting manamorphose for seething song and see how the deck plays.

I still rock Manamorphose. Still not using Seething Song. I've seen some people like Ben Perry (one of the best Belcher players, topped SCG last weekend) only using 1 Pyretic Ritual.
I absolutely love cards like Manamorphose and Gitaxin Probe because the possibility of adding +2, 4, or even 6 more 1/1 Goblins is too good to pass up.

I haven't rocked the deck in a while, so I did the other day to an okay 2-2 finish. Unknown meta (never played there), went in blind and rusty on a few plays.

2-1 Burn/RDW
2-0 Mirror Match (awww yeaahh)
1-2 UW Miracles
1-2 Shardless BUG

Burn was easy. Game one I mull to 5 because I'm hitting awful hands; I manage to throw down a Belcher, but besides being on the draw, mulling to 5, and him starting with double Goblin Guides, I'm dead before I can rip 3 more mana. Game 2's and 3 were the ideal "make a lot of dudes" and "shoot a lot of damage" games.

I was prepared for the mirror-match, and had a turn 1 Belcher activated both games (on the draw). He made 12 tokens game one, I kill him. Game two he mulls and doesn't have it, and I go off again turn one.

The Miracles match-up was fun. Had I been on the play game 1 I would of won the match. He played Tundra, pass. I combo off, making twenty 1/1's. He responds with a Brainstorm, and puts Terminus on the top. Lulz ensue. Otherwise, game 2 I got him with ease. Game 3, I tried comboing 3 times to no avail. I go all out for a Belcher turn one, and he FoW. I put down a Carpet of Flowers, a Tundra, and LED so I definitely have the mana in case I draw another Belcher. I draw some cards, try to combo off for about 8 tokens, which he interupts at the correct time. I try another Belcher, and it's met with a Counterspell. He finally establishes a board presence and it's game.

BUG was irritating. He just had all the right answers, and I drew all my sideboard cards at the wrong time. I ripped a Pyroblast after I tried to combo off. Just a bunch of bad topdecks.

I was a little rusty, and definitely sided weird in a few matches. Probably shouldn't of mulliganed once or twice when I did. Fun night nonetheless.

i stepped away from belcher a few monthsback but have decided to once again run it at SCG atlanta this weekend. pretty standard list but since ive been away what does an updated wishboard look like?

i know a guy topped a few weeks ago playing a forest and infernal tutor but i really think both of those are bad choices. i feel as if carpet of flowers is one of the strongest caards we can bring in most matches.

Quote from P-E

i think some swarm,carpet, forest, sylvan library, guttural/autumn's veil is a good choice

adding a forest just sounds terrible to me. it can actually prevent you from winning. it doubles your chances of whiffing off a belcher play? does it open up that many amazing side board options that it just becomes worth it?

Went 6-3 at the open with wish less belcher. Could have went 7-2 but lost a match to a misplay. Anyone want a report?

Quote from Eclipsebolt

Went 6-3 at the open with wish less belcher. Could have went 7-2 but lost a match to a misplay. Anyone want a report?

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Quote from mafteechr

Yeah, that'd be nice.

please pardon all spelling and grammar errors. not the best at this.

so after testing becher with and without wishes i decided to go for a non wish version, i personally seemed to draw better with it, and every time i had drawn a wish i "wished" it had be a ritual instead. that being said, im sure ill get complaints on what i have in the deck and how i run it, but in the end im pretty happy with where I finished and would gladly play this version again with only a few tweaks in the side deck. 48th place is respectable for the largest legacy open other than an invitational.

round one.
vs phillip
death and taxes
G1:
i knew i had the game from the moment he didnt turn 2 thalia. i turn 3 made 12 goblins and he scooped.
G2:
i first turn belcher with a hand of lotus petal, spirt guide, spirit guide, seething song, seething song, belcher, lions eye diamond. nothing to be really said.
1-0


round 2
vs bryce
RUG delver
G1:
after winning the die roll 2 games in a row im feeling pretty awesome and happy. i turn one 10 goblins, still not knowing what im facing, he draws his card and then scoops not wanting to reveal any information.

G2:
he plays a volcanic island and passes.
i make a belcher play with lions eye diamond. i go off and he stiffles my belcher. i already have a tiaga in play and need to rebuild fast. volcanic island and stifle tells me he is on rug, easily my worst matchup. im sweating pretty hard now.
he plays delver next turn and passes, looks to be stuck on mana. i draw a rite of flame. which is awesome but cant get me there. he draws , fetches a tropical which lets me know for sure hes on RUG. he then plays ponder and passes. i draw a simian spirit guide and play rite of flame. he lets it resolve, then i stack simian on it, he tries to play dreams's grip to tap my belcher, i then call a judge due to him not being able to respond to the mana ability. going off with belcher twice against rug feels really nice.
2-0


r3
vs dave
Pox(thought at first it was JUND)
G1:
i first turn belch with my taiga on the field and hes just amazed.

G2: he gets me with hand distruption and keeps swining with bobs and factory workers untl im just dead.

G3: i made 6 tokens turn one and just keep pressure on him until he cannot play bob for any advantage, my hand is gone so his cards do nothing and his edict effects arent fast enough.

3-0

R3
vs David
RUG delver

G1: im feeling pretty happy sitting at the first table this time, my oppnent seems like a really cool guy and we have great conversation. i win the roll but have a terrible hand, i have to mull to 6. my 6 was worse than my 7 and i go to five. my 5 is tinderwall x3, empty the warren x2. i dont even see how thiskind of hand can happen. i pile shuffle everytime and clumping like this is just bad luck. he plays some delvers and goyfs and kills me rather quickly. seeing my terrible draws and worst matchup is really not too fun.

G2:
i made 14 goblins turn 1 and he cannot keep up and stumbles on mana. easy win and makes me feel a little better after the terrible game one.

G3:
i make 10 tokens turn 2, (surprised i got any) but its not enough, he comes with multiple flipped delvers and mongooses. my buddy was watching me play and agrees i pinged him for perfect amounts, and made all the right blocking decisions but it just wasnt enought to save me.
3-1

R4
vs John (probly the nicest guy at this event.)
Mono U omnitell

G1:
i first turn belcher and he makes me go all the way through my deck until the land so he can get more info. (i call judge and judge agrees that i have to show him every card so he can confirm no lands in the deck. )

G2:
i stumble and cant get off until turn 3, turn 2 he goes off with his combo and kills me. nothing to be said really.

G3: this is the game im most ashamed of in the whole event. i have the option to turn 1 12 goblins or belcher and go off. the safest and best play knowing a blue opponent with zero lands and only force is to go warrens and hopefor them to stumble. i blanked in my mind and sat down the belcher instead, he snap forces it and then goes off a couple of turns later before i can rebuild. im really mad at myself because i know i could have had the game if i hadnt of misplayed terribly.
3-2

R6:
vs (im not sure of the name, apparently i didnt write it down in my notes like a normally do)
Shardless BUG
G1:
he gets me with just amazing top decks and i stumbles on getting an initial mana source.

G2: i win through a turn 4 belcher and going off. i still stumbled on a mana source but he stumbled on getting ANYthing useful.

G3:
i make 10 goblins turn 2. all is going well and i get him to 6 even through deathrite shamans and goyf. then he plays pernicious deed and sacs if for zero hitting all of my tokens, my chrome mox imprinted with a manamorphose and my lions eye diamond that i wanted out of my hand before he discarded it. needless to say i couldnt come back from this.
3-3

R7
vs Tan
Blecher(with wishes)

G1:
he wins the roll and i assume i wont get another turn. i have the first turn kill in hand and hope i can play it out. he plays a taiga and passes. i start my turn and play gitaxian probe, draw, land grant, rite of flame, manamorphose. i draw for the manmorphose but accidentally draw an extra card by it stickingto the other sleeve. i still hadnt seen it but he calls a judge. judge rules that since it touched my hand ill get a game loss for drawing extra cards, i appeal and explain to the head judge that i already had the first turn one, and had stated it to the opponent and even showed him my hand to short cut before i had ever started my turn. he go talk and come back and still give me a game loss.

G2:
i win with a belcher and he starts to sweat it now, knowing im already heated from getting the game loss.

G3:
in game 2 i sided mindbreak trap x2 and happened to draw them both and still have a way to make a belcher play, but not win. he goes off and i break him, i make belcher and pass. he has no win con but wishes for shattering spree whcih i also break, i then have a few turns to draw my mana sources for belcher to go off.
4-3

R8:
vs daniel
Deathblade

G1:
i belcher first turn and wiff dealing 8 to him.
he cant stop me when i find my mana again and i hit for lethal.

G2: his hand disruption is too much and he beats me down with a nice batterskull.

G3: i make 14 goblins and kill him before he can get anything online.
5-3

R9
vs alex
merfolk

G1:
i first turn make 16 goblins and he scoops after seeing his draw.

G2: i have the belcher win on first turn and force him to have the force of will. he doesnt. after the match he tells me that he only plays one force of will due to losing them the night before the tourney. sorry for him, but lucky for me.
6-3


all in all it was pretty great day. the night before i had played in the trail and 4-0ed it so i played for free, i sold the mat and got some extra cash so it was pretty much all profit. making 100.00 on a 10.00( 50 from mat and 50 from open) investment is nice.
living in atlanta helps a lot by not losing sleep and just being able to hang out at my own place before and after.
my buddy owen getting top was awesome and this is his second time topping(he did before in feb getting 2nd)
belching was awesome all weekend and i contribute a ton of my wins to the fact that i didnt listen to people and i used my sideboard how i wanted and played to its strengths quite a lot.

so happy i didnt play wishes and glad i went with my gut of going with the version was more comfortable with. i can gladly post a deck list later for anyone interested. although only the side deck is any bit spicy.

Just getting into Belcher. What do you guys think of this list? I'm on a bit of a budget but this is in my price range. I'm hoping to pick up 2-3 LEDs once I sell off the Goblins deck I never would be able to finish building and the Volcanic Island I inherited from a friend.

Quote from chainedcurses

Just getting into Belcher. What do you guys think of this list? I'm on a bit of a budget but this is in my price range. I'm hoping to pick up 2-3 LEDs once I sell off the Goblins deck I never would be able to finish building and the Volcanic Island I inherited from a friend.

BMB01758's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures:15 4 Tinder Wall 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Simian Spirit Guide 3 Street Wraith Spells:44 4 Chrome Mox 4 Lotus Petal 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Rite of Flame 4 Desperate Ritual 4 Land Grant 4 Manamorphose 4 Pyretic Ritual 4 Seething Song 4 Empty the Warrens 4 Goblin Charbelcher	Lands:1 1 Stomping Ground

I was looking to build a legacy goblin deck and I have a full playset of LEDs and Burning Wishes. Can you send me a pm with what you have so far for the Goblin Deck and we might be able to work out a trade? If you have any Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, that'll be important too.

That being said, if you got the LEDs, which you desperately need to make any Belcher list function, then you'd also need a playset of Burning Wish to act as another set of win conditions. 8 is too few to be consistent enough to avoid mulligans. The burning wish cards also have tremendous synergy with LED.

Without (4) LEDs and (3-4) Burning Wishes, the list isn't quite explosive enough to be competitive.

Taiga is also a natural improvement over Stomping Ground, but for the purposes of this deck completely unnecessary.

Otherwise I don't see too many problems. Removing 7-8 cards to add the LEDs and Burning Wishes. I would remove the Street Wraiths, 1 EtW to the Wishboard, 1-2 ritual, and 2-3 Tinder Walls.

2 Tinder Walls in hand are often difficult to cast, but 1 is easy.

Love Belcher. It's consistency is undeniable.

Best wishes mate.

So, I finally got around to ACTUALLY testing my Blue Belcher list last night. Sadly, I faced literally nothing but Blue. Not sadly, I went 9-4 in games and 4-1-1 in matches.

The "draw" was a match against Sneak and Show that went 1-1 and then my internet crashed, but I felt pretty confident about the matchup.

I won through:

Daze
Pierce
Force
Force+Daze
2x Daze

I lost to a double Force (I had my own Force for one of them), a Grudge on my LED (because I foolishly dropped it before going off), and one really stupid game that should've been a win by all counts, but it turns out Turn 1 SnT Proggy does not beat a Sneak Attack. The sideboard would've mitigated some of this if I'd been using it, as it contains 4 Pact of Negation for Blue decks. So all of these games were pre-side.

Here's the list I was using:

Quote from serenechaos

So, I finally got around to ACTUALLY testing my Blue Belcher list last night. Sadly, I faced literally nothing but Blue. Not sadly, I went 9-4 in games and 4-1-1 in matches.

The "draw" was a match against Sneak and Show that went 1-1 and then my internet crashed, but I felt pretty confident about the matchup.

I won through:

Daze
Pierce
Force
Force+Daze
2x Daze

I lost to a double Force (I had my own Force for one of them), a Grudge on my LED (because I foolishly dropped it before going off), and one really stupid game that should've been a win by all counts, but it turns out Turn 1 SnT Proggy does not beat a Sneak Attack. The sideboard would've mitigated some of this if I'd been using it, as it contains 4 Pact of Negation for Blue decks. So all of these games were pre-side.

Here's the list I was using:

BMB01758's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Goblin Charbelcher 3 Show and Tell 2 Progenitus 4 Force of Will 4 Manamorphose 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Ponder 3 Brainstorm	4 Summoner's Pact 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Simian Spirit Guide 4 Rite of Flame 4 Chrone Mox 4 Lion's Eye Diamond 4 Lotus Petal 3 Tinder Wall 1 Wild Cantor

Did you have any consistency problems?

I noticed you are only running 7 win conditions instead of the usual 10-11 in a normal belcher list. How often did you have to mulligan? Was keeping hands without a win condition an issue?

Wouldn't Show and Tell conflict with Pacts? You cannot wait the extra turn to attack with Proggy.

Additionally even with Show and Tell being your win con, you still have to have a belcher and/or proggy in hand to utilize it right? Comparitively Belcher, Burning Wish, and EtW don't need the other win conditions to function.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Belcher w/ Protection. The lack of such is why I've been looking elsewhere, but there seems to be some potential issues.

Quote from BMB01758

Did you have any consistency problems?

I noticed you are only running 7 win conditions instead of the usual 10-11 in a normal belcher list. How often did you have to mulligan? Was keeping hands without a win condition an issue?

I did not have any consistency problems. Brainstorm+Ponder helped tremendously with this. I did not mulligan as aggressively as I normally would, but again, Brainstorm and Ponder did a lot of work turning mediocre keeps into Turn 1-2 wins.

Wouldn't Show and Tell conflict with Pacts? You cannot wait the extra turn to attack with Proggy.

Not at all, in fact Pact for Proggy-->SnT is a common line of play for me. SnT+Pact Trigger is 7 mana, just like Belcher+Activate =)

Additionally even with Show and Tell being your win con, you still have to have a belcher and/or proggy in hand to utilize it right? Comparitively Belcher, Burning Wish, and EtW don't need the other win conditions to function.

Also not really a problem. 2 Proggy+4 Belcher+4 Pact+15 draw spells does a lot for consistency as far as SnT goes. I would love room for Burning Wishes, but they're so hard to fit in. As it is, SnT is essentially a Pyretic Ritual that can also dump Proggy or pitch to FoW.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Belcher w/ Protection. The lack of such is why I've been looking elsewhere, but there seems to be some potential issues.

No problem! I agree that the deck looks shaky. I really want to play against some fair decks and other combo decks to see if it still has typical Belcher power. But if these results hold up to more testing, I think that ~70% pre-board against Blue decks is a fairly strong starting point.

As an aside, any deck running black has a much easier time killing Prog than tokens. The myriad of edicts, the prolific use of Liliana + DRS, the fact that Perish and Virtue's Ruin hit's him, Dystopia, etc.. I don't think he's half as safe as the token route.

Token's go off with a mere 4 mana and have to be countered in the same number of turns, but really are only countered by token decks, ratchet bomb/EE/Keg (which aren't *as* prolific, and not in the MB.)

This deck *cannot* do as well as belcher in any meta where G/B decks are alive and kicking; which are most metas. This is why Sneak/Show exists; so you get the hit in from your fat before main-deck answers come into it. Emmy is almost as protected as Prog, except he wins the turn he swings; unsure why you'd chance 2-turns just to block Oring/etc..

I'd MB Emmy with SB Prog if you go with this plan; that way you can swap in prog when they swap in ORings/Despair/Rider.