MTG Salvation

Quote from mafteechr

Is there a reason we use Pyroclasm instead of Grapeshot against Gaddock Teeg?

One thing I could see is the possibility to kill creatures with only two mana over two turns instead of the 4 needed for Grapeshot. Also if there's lot of creatures maybe the storm isn't high enough like against Dredge tokens.

You can always put grapeshot in your semi wishboard/sideboard if you so desire, but as posted above Pyroclasm has more widespread utility in my opinion than grapeshot does in a wide array of match ups.

so i have wishless belcher built and have been playing it a lot in my area. one of my good friends wants to build it but doesnt have the budget for lions eye diamonds. is there any way to play it without lions eyes? seething songs in their place?
id realy like to help him out but i know he wont be able to. hes already going to have to use stomping ground over the taiga.

Wishless builds don't get punished as much for not having leds. Seething song would be a good replacement.

I have been tweeking the wishboard to help make smoother hands game 1 by using land grant and trash for treasure as targets. Thoughts?

Quote from buckjunt

Wishless builds don't get punished as much for not having leds. Seething song would be a good replacement.

I have been tweeking the wishboard to help make smoother hands game 1 by using land grant and trash for treasure as targets. Thoughts?

How is Seething Song a replacement for LED when Seething Song should be a staple in the deck to begin with?

Quote from mafteechr

How is Seething Song a replacement for LED when Seething Song should be a staple in the deck to begin with?

seething song isnt a staple. it makes an odd amount of mana for the deck, and is often countered causing you to expect all mana just to activate it. a lot of decks do not play it at all anymore but it can be good in certain builds.
your rituals are normally

4 rite of flame
4 pyretic ritual
4 desperate ritual
4 manamorphose
4 tinder wall

then of course you have your initial mana sources like lotus petal, spirit guides, stuff like that.

seething song is a lot better in burning wish builds that actually need the higher count of mana (as is lion's eye diamond due to floating in response to a wish). in wishless you are either going for 4 mana, or going for 7. its pretty simple in the mathematical read out

Quote from Eclipsebolt

seething song isnt a staple. it makes an odd amount of mana for the deck, and is often countered causing you to expect all mana just to activate it. a lot of decks do not play it at all anymore but it can be good in certain builds.
your rituals are normally

4 rite of flame
4 pyretic ritual
4 desperate ritual
4 manamorphose
4 tinder wall

then of course you have your initial mana sources like lotus petal, spirit guides, stuff like that.

seething song is a lot better in burning wish builds that actually need the higher count of mana (as is lion's eye diamond due to floating in response to a wish). in wishless you are either going for 4 mana, or going for 7. its pretty simple in the mathematical read out

In a Wishless build, I could see that. Then again, I also hate Manamorphose in a Belcher deck.

I also consider seething song a staple and manamorphose is arguably the worst card in any build that includes it. I have been toying with the deck since I built it and have had some personal success with wishes. I also play with wish targets, right now I have a few oddities I would like to discuss. Land grant is great to wish when you have burning wish and empty/belcher and only 5 mana. This turns all of those hands from mulls to wins. Also cuts back on double land grant/taiga hands. Gitaxian probe serves a similar purpose, though I use it only with empty the warrens. This helps awkward spirit guide hands. And trash for treasure allows us to combo off usind leds to not only activate, but get our belcher into play! Also it helps against discard and counters.

You gotta change your Icon/Avatar now from Candels to Lion's Eye Diamonds. ^.^

After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). 5 color Belcher!!!!! This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness

Quote from mafteechr

Is there a reason we use Pyroclasm instead of Grapeshot against Gaddock Teeg?

I guess another possible reason would be if you expect to face decks that board in Ethersworn Canonist, since if it gets into play, it would be harder to kill it with Grapeshot (for you could not Burning Wish + Grapeshot it for 2 on the same turn. You would need to BW for Grapeshot on one turn and you would need to have a Petal/Mox/LED in hand to cast the artifact + Grapshot next turn in order to do the 2 damage).

Flame slash or chain lightning are options as well, both cheaper, both have reach on creatures, and lightning can hit face if needed

Sideboard Swap:
4 gitaxian probe -> 4 autumn's veil
4 street wraith -> 3 xantid swarm + 1 Carpet of flowers
1 Pyretic Ritual -> 1 carpet of flowers

--------------------------------------------------
Cards I wish were printed.

Burning Ritual (R)
As an additional cost to cast ~, discard a card from your hand.
Add (R)(R)(R) to your mana pool

Gaea's Favor (G)
Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

There is a charbelcher thread. This should probably be there.

I played at SCG Baltimore yesterday, finished 5-4 (67th place). I wrote a tournament report here.

If you don't want to click through, here is the deck and my rounds.



2-0 vs Affinity
2-0 vs BUG Delver
2-0 vs Deadguy Ale + Green
1-2 vs Deathblade + Goyf (Chris Marshall, top 8)
2-1 vs Death & Taxes
2-1 vs OmniTell
0-2 vs Tezzerator (Chris Van Meter)
1-2 vs Omnitell (Drew Levin)
0-2 vs Dredge

I built this deck a few months ago, just so I had a legacy deck to play with friends, since they play legacy more so then other formats.

This weekend, there is a legacy tournament near me, and I am thinking about playing. I just have questions about the sideboard, like what do I board in/out during specific matchups.

The one thing that's always bothered me about this deck in the use of Chrome Mox. I've put together a build that's essentially a playset of everything good in the deck, except substituting Lotus Petal in in place of the Chrome Mox. I'll have to let you know how this goes in August when I actually get a chance to play it.

From my experience in play testing, the Lotus Petal gives you more utility in the hand than the mox. While Mox can stick on the battlefield for more than one use, the Petal fixes for Diminishing Returns after sideboarding a lot better, as well as all the one drop ramp like Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame.

Also going to experiment with removing Pyretic Ritual and instead using Manamorphose. The deck list will look something like...



The sideboard will be very typical of a normal sideboard I'm imagining, but I may run Overmaster as well so the Seething Song won't get forced in case I don't see the Xanthid Swarms post sideboarding.

I like this build a lot in play testing. The extra cycling with the manamorphose lets you REALLY dig for a wincon, the Petals fix mana for you better than moxes without having to take an additional card from hand, and I've had a lot of luck with consistency thus far, testing against ANT and Pox and Cephilid Breakfast.

I will let you guys know how this goes!

Surely you mean that you replaced Chrome Mox with Street Wraith. Lotus Petal is a Belcher staple because the deck runs short of IMS's otherwise (assuming Petal gets the boot and Chrome Mox stays, you now have 17 IMS's instead of 21).

Yes, you are correct. I was mistakenly running both without the street wraiths, but I actually always hated drawing the Chrome Mox and the wraith drives a little bit harder.

However, it can put you at really low life totals I'm finding, but it so far hasn't been a problem even against decks which can typically run damage out. Still enjoying it far more without the Chrome Moxes, they're a detriment to the hand where all of your mana comes from, and they don't color fix well.

OK, as someon who is just jumping into legacy, I'm going to play this deck at my LGS's Legacy this week. My list:



Unfortunately, I'm short some key cards (most notably Lion's Eye Diamond, but them's the breaks when you're poor.

My question is this: can anyone offer constructive/productive advice for playing this deck in a meta containing the following:

Trinistax MUD
Zombardment
Mono-U Stasis/Infect
GB Infect
Countertop
Goblins
MUD
America Control
Dredge
Hypergenesis
Elves
High Tide
RDW
Merfolk

Again, constructive advice would be much appreciated! I've only been able test once, against a Vintage Oath of Druids deck, and I went 2-1 against it....

Quote from cannonballkuriboh

can anyone offer constructive/productive advice for playing this deck in a meta containing the following:

Looks like there are some blue decks, but not a ton.

I would play a sideboard that has 4x Carpet of Flowers 4x Pyroblast 7x Who Gives a Crap

If they play Islands, then bring in Carpet of Flowers over Seething Song.

If they play counters (or Mindbreak Trap, like Goblins might), then bring in Pyroblast over Street Wraith (and 1 Gitaxian Probe)

Quote from iwoenai

The sideboard will be very typical of a normal sideboard I'm imagining, but I may run Overmaster as well so the Seething Song won't get forced in case I don't see the Xanthid Swarms post sideboarding.

Dislike.

As stated above, if you're worrying about Seething Song getting countered and your opponent plays Islands (pretty likely), then bring in Carpet of Flowers.

I highly recommend my mainboard I posted above (see this) if you are playing Burning Wish and LED. I would change my sideboard as follows: -3 Chancellor of the Annex +2 Sylvan Library +1 Forest

Went to SCG Richmond and played in the sole Legacy win-a-box on Sunday. Split the finals with Tin Fins. I played the same deck I listed here.

Round 1 vs Spanish Inquisition
G1: I keep 7 cards on the play, but I need an additional mana source. I decide to keep and pass the turn. He looks confused, and starts to storm. When he cast Ill-Gotten Gains, I decline to discard my hand and scoop.
G2: I make 12 goblins on the play. He plays Belcher, but hits Bayou as the 10th card. I proceed to win.
G3: He storms, but wiffs on Infernal Contract. I play out Belcher with two permanent mana sources and a Grim Monolith in hand. He draws, passes, and I win.

Round 2 vs Jund
Note: He didn't see my deck, but I watched him play, so I have the information advantage.
G1: I make 14 goblins on the play, he plays a Deathrite Shaman, but fails to find Maelstrom Pulse T2 and I win.
G2: He plays a Bayou and passes, and I sigh that doesn't have Deathrite or discard. I play out Belcher and hold double Land Grant and Lotus Petal in hand. T2 he plays a Deathrite and passes, so I draw Tinder Wall and win.

I drew with Tin Fins. We played for fun and I lost since he won the die roll. He T1'd me both games 1 and 3. I got 18 packs but shipped 6 back to my friend who let me borrow $15 to play. I crack Scavenging Ooze, Garruk, and foil Mutavault from my 12 packs.

Like I said in the past, there is absolutely nothing I would change in my maindeck. It's perfect for how I see the deck.

Quote from mafteechr

Went to SCG Richmond and played in the sole Legacy win-a-box on Sunday. Split the finals with Tin Fins (...).

Hey, congrats for your performance!

Were you already expecting a combo metagame?

Do you play Belcher regardless of the metagame, or do you change your deck if you guess the environment will be tough for it?