I'm not quite sure. It is pretty rough to go past 8. It's more or less I wanted to side in different hate cards for different blue decks. Against Esper Stoneblade I rather have cards like 4 Pyroblast, 4 Autumn's Veil, and if I find room Carpet of Flowers (more so for the Miracles matchup). However, against Sneak and Show I don't have a problem with siding in Xantid Swarm as they aren't running a lot of spot removal.
Maybe I'm getting too greedy with the anti-blue though.
I switch the Seething Song with one of the rituals to have one extra mana for Guttural Response. I find it really hard to side out cards for pyroblast or guttural response.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
I've been testing Past in Flames and it has been fantastic. I can crack LED for it and can get a big storm count. If you go off with it it's pretty much another win con.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
I've been wishboarding Past in Flames for a while and have been pleased with having it there. Wouldn't put any copies maindeck, but it's definitely a solid card for Belcher.
So this is my build, I'm not on the Burning Wish because I get the pieces often enough.
Personally I run the wishes less for the added combo pieces and more the wish board. if I use probe and see I'm about to hit a FoW I can wish for duress and then go off.
I have been testing a bit with chancellor of the tangle over seething song, and so far it has been better for mulligans. The green has been nice to have, plus the additional 0-drop source makes hands smoother. Just a bad spirit guide. The chrome mox and chancellor is amazing, each offsetting the other's drawback. I suppose it could be considered a wincon in a pinch, but not at all the purpose. Seething song just blew me out too often, sinking 4 cards into a counter is bad.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
After more testing, this is what I am settling on (at least for now). 5 color Belcher!!!!! This is my "WUBRG" Belcher list. I have made it to where the main functions optimally in terms of the first 7 cards with the goal of maximizing faster kills. This included cutting a wish (i draw too many multiples), a land grant (same), and adding grim monolith in there places, thus adding more odds of cantripping into a usable ramp spell. I also took these sorceries and put them in my modified wishboard, further optimizing my first 7. The extra wish in the side allows me to utilize double seething song hands and the like, where i cannot produce black mana, so i can still up my storm count when past in flames won't do it. Land grant allows me to keep awkward hands that can produce 5 mana and i have a wish and belcher/EtW. Not only does this enable these hands, but ups the storm count with etw and makes belcher auto kill on activation! The synergy is too good to pass up, along with smoothing out hands...I am surprised nobody has tried it before. Also, trash for treasure allows us to keep hands with wish, leds and belcher, as long as we have a mox or monolith (more synergy by adding these to the list). It is narrow, but it does turn an auto-mulligan into an auto-win. I have space for these because i don't like siding in a lot, i feel it hurts the decks consistency. I side in 3 xantid swarms and guttural response against blue on the draw, and guttural and 3 chancellor on the play. I prefer chancellor for the fact it doesn't use any other resources to use, also coming in handy when expecting turn 1 chalices or explosives, thoughtseizes and the like. Guttural is there to be a medium between play/draw as i only have the room for 1 card and i like that any mana source will cast it, optimizing effectiveness
The list is pretty much the same, just replace the Monolith with Gitaxian Probe
The Extraction/Crypt i think im going to takt them off, since in my meta there is not much Reaniamtor, but lots of U/x/x Delvers, some ESPER and thigns like that.
Personally I run the wishes less for the added combo pieces and more the wish board. if I use probe and see I'm about to hit a FoW I can wish for duress and then go off.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Chancellor of the annex works really well, but only on the play against blue or on the draw against duress effects.
I am not a fan of duress. It means you must have a petal not dedicated to casting wish or manamorphose...or mox with wraith..I guess. And why duress over winning?
So I have been tuning my charbelcher deck for a while and found a solution that has a ~86% first turn win rate compared to the ~76% rate that is posted on this thread. (Stats are based off of you have a win condition and can pull the combo off starting on turn 1, Charbelcher: turn 1-2 win, Empty: turn 3 win with a storm count avg at 5.65)
This card is a counter trap! Too often will you have to spend all your mana resources to cast this card for the slight benefit of 2 additional mana. it should also be noted that Bumping up to 5 mana doesn't fit in this deck's mana curve anyways unless you have another seething song to hit 7 mana for a charbelcher "cast then activate". There are also times where I'm sitting on charbelcher with 2 mana sources (Chrome mox + Tiaga) waiting to go off. if I draw this card it is useless. I have concluded that all fast mana should be 2 or less.
This card in combination with the other draw cards, gitaxian probe and manamorphose turn this deck into essentially a tight reliable 48 card deck. It should be noted that it will make hands harder to predict for determining a mulligan. There is however a 68% chance that the draw will lead to a mana source. It's also important that this card helps keep some concealment to your hand when you reveal it for land grant. Draw cards are great to show since they don't give away what you'll draw into keeping your opponent guessing. This card replaced 4 fast mana cards since they normally draw into a mana source anyways but can also help find the LED or Burning Wish that you need.
Note: I have attempted to add cards like dark ritual and infernal tutor in my main deck but find that 3 color belcher is much less reliable than two.
In the end I went with autumns veil mainly because I can cast it first and see if the coast is clear without spending other cards with a hope that it works. Once autumn's veil resolves I don't have to worry about another counterspell. This also helps against mindbreak trap in off color sideboard as I can cast it first without it triggering. Autumn's veil is also the same color as xantid swarm, land grant, and carpet of flowers which is nice with chrome mox. ( Tip: If you do go with pyroblast don't substitute for red elemental blast, you can cast pyroblast without a blue target on the board to increase storm for EtW.
Not an unusual choice but it can stop a daze of the more annoying fluster storm. Also helps pay for charbelcher as a late draw and limits your opponent to normally 2-3 land
Sideboard choice:
When playing blue you will need to be more careful and the deck will slow considerably. Anything with islands or potential free counters like Force of will or mindbreak trap I swap
4 street wraith -> 4 autumn's veil
4 gitaxian probe -> 3 xantid swarm + 1 carpet of flowers
1 Pyretic Ritual -> 1 carpet of flowers
The rest is a wish board. Customize to whatever meta you have in your local area. Mine is filled with high tides and show and tells hence the bribery to grab their Eldrazi.
I really like bribery. I don't agree with cave-in, I think it should always be pyroclasm because of gaddok teeg
What is the general consensus on running two taiga? It would make double land grant more manageable, added resistance to wasteland and an added permanent mana source. It wouldn't be as awkward as bayou was because it still doubles the damage.
I have no real issues with with just one tiaga. My consensus on two would be if you dont have a taiga or a land grant in your starting hand it doubles your chance of a "wiff" with goblin charbelcher.
If it about removing a land grant for 1 more tiaga i would still rather run the land grant because if the synergy with chrome mox and increasing storm count.
My friends convinced me to play legacy, so I started looking at deck lists. Belcher and Reanimator were the two that really stuck in my head, and I ended up building Belcher. Here is my list:
After play testing it at my local shop, I really really enjoy the deck, even though my shop has a lot of blue decks(the majority of them play 4 Force of Will
After reading the 1st post in this thread, I think I might change the deck up a little bit. I read the tourney report where this deck was piloted to a 2nd place. And it wasn't running any burning wish (which has been my least favorite card in the deck). Maybe the version of this deck running no Burning Wish is worse, but I think I might try it out. Something like: -4 Burning Wish, +1 Land Grant, +3 Street Wraith
And for the Side Board, I didn't know what to run, and just based it off of lists I saw online, but now, I think I might add 4 Guttural Response
I switch the Seething Song with one of the rituals to have one extra mana for Guttural Response. I find it really hard to side out cards for pyroblast or guttural response.
I've been playing this exact main deck and wow, it's so consistent. I'm loving it.
Griselbrand is another option over Proggy, but he would have to be a 3-4 of since there's no way to grab him.
Show and Tell is awesome, since it's a mini-ritual, or a Turn 1-2 Proggy.
Hopefully Brainstorm helps to balance out the new weight of non-combo cards while trying to go off.
I think you will want 4 mox and 4 land grant to guarantee blue mana for brainstorm and show and tell. I like the idea. We could also run burning wish for show and tell to utilize the leds more, effectively giving us more blue sources
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I actually had to cut a Chrome Mox because a) I needed more rits, and b) they were eating my hand too fast.
I love Burning Wish, but I'm not sure how to squeeze it in here. It would defeat the -1 mana of SnT, since I would need two extra, but it might make Proggy wins a little easier.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Maybe I'm getting too greedy with the anti-blue though.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
1 Taiga
4 Seething Song
4 Guttural Response
4 Pyroblast
3 Open Spots
I switch the Seething Song with one of the rituals to have one extra mana for Guttural Response. I find it really hard to side out cards for pyroblast or guttural response.
Personally I run the wishes less for the added combo pieces and more the wish board. if I use probe and see I'm about to hit a FoW I can wish for duress and then go off.
Legacy:
RGWBUDredgeUBWGR
:symrg:Belcher:symrg:
WD&TW
Affinity
WGriffinsW (pauper)
U/thopter comboU/ (peasant)
:symbg:Moosebite:symbg: (peasant)
RGobo tokensR (peasant)
R slide R (peasant)
:symur:pingers:symur:
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Creature: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
Land: 1
1x Taiga
Sorcery: 17
3x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
1x Burning Wish
3x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Guttural Response
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Land Grant
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Trash for Treasure
3x Xantid Swarm
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Oh, i like the idea of using Chancellor of the Annex as a response of going off in t1 against Fow's decks.
Did it worked good agaisnt them? i would like some feedback about it.
My SB runs:
1 Sirugical Extraction
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Past In Flames
The list is pretty much the same, just replace the Monolith with Gitaxian Probe
The Extraction/Crypt i think im going to takt them off, since in my meta there is not much Reaniamtor, but lots of U/x/x Delvers, some ESPER and thigns like that.
Im planning add like 2-3 eyline of sanctityl
Why not Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
I am not a fan of duress. It means you must have a petal not dedicated to casting wish or manamorphose...or mox with wraith..I guess. And why duress over winning?
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant
1 Tiaga
Fast Mana: [13]
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wrait
Wins: [15]
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty The Warrens
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Autumn's Veil
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal tutor
1 Cave-in
1 Bribery
1 Hull breach
1 Shattering Spree
Notable changes:
No Seething Song:
four Street Wraiths:
Autumn's veil vs. Pyroblast:
Carpet of flowers:
Sideboard choice:
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
What is the general consensus on running two taiga? It would make double land grant more manageable, added resistance to wasteland and an added permanent mana source. It wouldn't be as awkward as bayou was because it still doubles the damage.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
If it about removing a land grant for 1 more tiaga i would still rather run the land grant because if the synergy with chrome mox and increasing storm count.
R Grenzo, Havoc Raiser
BG Varolz, the scar-striped
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Qft. And mananorphos is terrible in the matches you side, anyway.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
3 Land Grant
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Autumn's Veil
1 Hull Breach
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Bribery
1 Shattering Spree
After play testing it at my local shop, I really really enjoy the deck, even though my shop has a lot of blue decks(the majority of them play 4 Force of Will
After reading the 1st post in this thread, I think I might change the deck up a little bit. I read the tourney report where this deck was piloted to a 2nd place. And it wasn't running any burning wish (which has been my least favorite card in the deck). Maybe the version of this deck running no Burning Wish is worse, but I think I might try it out. Something like: -4 Burning Wish, +1 Land Grant, +3 Street Wraith
And for the Side Board, I didn't know what to run, and just based it off of lists I saw online, but now, I think I might add 4 Guttural Response
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I've been playing this exact main deck and wow, it's so consistent. I'm loving it.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox
3 Land Grant
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Tropical Island
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Pyretic Ritual
4 Pact of Negation
3 Force of Will
1 Progenitus
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
3 Brainstorm
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Show and Tell
Griselbrand is another option over Proggy, but he would have to be a 3-4 of since there's no way to grab him.
Show and Tell is awesome, since it's a mini-ritual, or a Turn 1-2 Proggy.
Hopefully Brainstorm helps to balance out the new weight of non-combo cards while trying to go off.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I think you will want 4 mox and 4 land grant to guarantee blue mana for brainstorm and show and tell. I like the idea. We could also run burning wish for show and tell to utilize the leds more, effectively giving us more blue sources
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I love Burning Wish, but I'm not sure how to squeeze it in here. It would defeat the -1 mana of SnT, since I would need two extra, but it might make Proggy wins a little easier.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.