Well, when someone says it's 2 land belcher, do you always assume that it's 3-color? Because I have 2 taigas in my list, and it's still has almost never fizzled. It has fizzled only one time critically, but not piloted by me. He belched 2 times succesfully and still lost, as he hit two lands too early.
But usually I don't have to mulligan hand where are 2 land grants, that has happened to me more than just once...
2 land is NOT the way to go. Consistency with charbelcher is key; you don't want to fire belcher at someone only to have it fizzle damage wise and have to rely on the top of your deck to win. There's also the problem if you run bayou and you fetch say taiga with land grant or worse you don't land grant at all the chances of fizzling off a belcher activation is just below 50% because you'll likely have 53 cards in your deck and if bayou is one of the first 20 cards you will not deal lethal damage. True if you fetch the bayou there's still a chance of fizzling if the taiga is in the first ten cards but that means 10/53 cards which is about a 20% chance of failure. If both lands are in your deck it is a lottery if you hit the bayou again if better be after 20 nonland cards have been revealed and god does it suck when you rely on belcher to win only to have it fizzle and you dead in the water.
Duress is not needed nor is dark ritual needed. There is enough acceleration in red and green to sufficiently power out goblins or a belcher. Manamorphose raising storm count is a minor bonus to running the card and smoothing out mana is nice true but at the same time the card can be really terrible depending on what you draw off of it.
@Lyme: I don't understand why you would be running 2 lands in a list of belcher without black are you aiming for the long game to be able to land grant multiple times? Because it seems terrible to aim for the long game with belcher which you never want to do because every turn you don't win is another chance for the opponent to draw something good against you like FoW, EE for tokens, pernicious deed, e. plague, etc. etc.
For boarding I would probably board out grim monolith's for swarm/pyroblast/guttural response. If you run morphose/street wraith I would board those out first though. Another weakish card is pyretic/desperate ritual if you're bringing in more than 4 cards.
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I just this his list is too dependent on opening hand and mulligan. I've played Belcher for years now, and the way I've tuned my deck has always been the most consistent for me.
4 Burning Wish
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrena
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
1 Tiaga
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
1 Cave-In
1 Grapeshot
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pact of Negation
1 Goblin War Strike
Hi,
I was thinking about building that 2nd place Gencon Deck (without Wishes). He played with Deus of Calamity in SB and my question is, against what kind of decks should I side it in? I assume that it is another win condition, but it is so easy to wipe it out with help of removal (StP, Path...). I know that most opponents would side out their removal spells for game 2, but there's still risk though, e.g. Zoo has burn (2 Bolts and goodbye to Deus). Moreover, I wouldn't side Deus in against U decks, since I have enough SB cards against them (-4 Pyretic Ritual, -3 Street Wraith, +4 Guttural Response/Pyroblast (not sure here), +3 Xantid Swarm).
Here is the guy's list:
Matthew Hazard playing Charbelcher RG – Legacy Championships
I would certainly take out PoP and side in artifact hate, Shattering Spree or/and Ingot Chewer, since they are in fact uncounterable by Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Another artifacts which I fear most are Pithing Needle and Null Rod. Since Counterbalance and Leyline of Sanctity (I've seen people siding it in in my Meta, full of burn and few ANTs) could be problematic, I would like to have in SB Hull Breach or even Naturalize.
So, my SB proposition is:
4 Guttural Response
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Naturalize
3 Deus of Calamity (only if someone can convince me that it is OK)
Heh, if you're gonna sb Pacts, what about sb...Force of Will?
I'm not rly sure if that is a serious question? If it is, the point is obvious. You only use it if you have a chance to win the turn you play it. The 5cc is a non factor
Hi,
I was thinking about building that 2nd place Gencon Deck (without Wishes). He played with Deus of Calamity in SB and my question is, against what kind of decks should I side it in? I assume that it is another win condition, but it is so easy to wipe it out with help of removal (StP, Path...). I know that most opponents would side out their removal spells for game 2, but there's still risk though, e.g. Zoo has burn (2 Bolts and goodbye to Deus). Moreover, I wouldn't side Deus in against U decks, since I have enough SB cards against them (-4 Pyretic Ritual, -3 Street Wraith, +4 Guttural Response/Pyroblast (not sure here), +3 Xantid Swarm).
Here is the guy's list:
Matthew Hazard playing Charbelcher RG – Legacy Championships
I would certainly take out PoP and side in artifact hate, Shattering Spree or/and Ingot Chewer, since they are in fact uncounterable by Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Another artifacts which I fear most are Pithing Needle and Null Rod. Since Counterbalance and Leyline of Sanctity (I've seen people siding it in in my Meta, full of burn and few ANTs) could be problematic, I would like to have in SB Hull Breach or even Naturalize.
So, my SB proposition is:
4 Guttural Response
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Naturalize
3 Deus of Calamity (only if someone can convince me that it is OK)
I wouldn't count on opponents siding out removal anymore. Since ANT and TES have become more popular, people have learned to prepare for Xantid Swarm at the very least, making your manplan far less effective. Xantid is good bait if you plan to drop Deus but generally I find that Belcher cannot effectively support a man plan. SI does it far better. The builds that utilize Burning Wish tend to be more effective. Further, your SB proposition lacks both Diminish Returns, Empty the Warrens, and Hull Breach, three cards no Belcher Wish board should be without.
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If you were playing in a casual tournament and you knew they were taking out removal. Would you side out Charbelcher and side in Deus? For example, I know a guy who sides out his removal and sides in pithing needles everytime.
I'm not rly sure if that is a serious question? If it is, the point is obvious. You only use it if you have a chance to win the turn you play it. The 5cc is a non factor
Right, I get that. Pyroblast/REB is the right call. I was one-eighth serious.
If you were playing in a casual tournament and you knew they were taking out removal. Would you side out Charbelcher and side in Deus? For example, I know a guy who sides out his removal and sides in pithing needles everytime.
And against control decks what do you side out?
Never side out Belcher. You can sometimes land that against an opponent who has countered your Burning Wish, or just with perpetual resources like lands and Chrome Mox that will stay around to let you top deck a game winning WC like Belcher. Especially when you expect to see countermagic, you will need to have more business maindeck or else you will have to wait to topdeck business.. which could take too long if your opponent has a clock. Having more business insures that you won't take too long to go off if you fail on one attempt. Side out cyclers like Manamorphose and/or Street Wraith first, then extra acceleration that is sure to be countered like Seething Song.
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I stopped into the magic room at the wizard world in Austin today. They only had 20 people in the legacy tournament, but according to one of the judges there were 5 belcher players. After three rounds I think there were 2 3-0s, both belcher decks.
Goblin Welder and Xantid Swarm work well together because you can protect the play you actually want to make by baiting with the other (if you have both in hand that is). Welder helps you sneak Belcher into play, and having Grim Monolith as acceleration gives you more artifacts to choose from as fodder.
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They're gonna know you're playing Belcher after the first game...if you're gonna bluff, md it and then side it out after the first round. It seems a little risky to use 4 slots for a bluff, though.
Has anyone seen the no land belcher list? I saw it a few months ago and can't find it now...I know that it played spoils of the vault if that helps nebody. Thanks for ne help tracking the decklist down.
2 land belcher is what I prefer. I play knowing that if I don't go off by turn 2 it is 90% chance I will lose. I keep this in mind while mulling and I kept it in mind with me main board.
Bayou opens up alot of doors for belcher, and it brings with it allot of consistency that 1 or 0 land belcher fight to have. Dark Ritual is more mana efficient than other spells available (other than seething song), it goes off quicker, and is in general more conducive to a T1 belch.
Infernal tutor is the best thing available to us, it functions as LED and Belcher 5-8. Spoils of the vault is scary efficient at what it does, lifeloss from it is negligible because if I am playing it then I will be going off that turn.
With both tutors I keep FAR more hands than I would otherwise and it leads to a much more reliable T1 belch, however it should be noted that it does bring the risk of fizzling (which doesn't happen often).
I used to play with burning wish and a wishboard, but after a while I realized that nothing I ever got with wish is what I actually wanted (usually either an LED or a belcher). For this reason I decided to cut the package entirley and replace it with Spoils and Infernal.
Another Card I have looked at very seriously is Ill-Gotten Gains. It seems like it could be a fantastic card for making T1 belches happen (grabbing LED's from the grave. Perhaps someday I will test it (2b is somewhat of a turnoff, WTB Black elvish spirit guide)
I am extremely intrigued by the idea of goblin welder. It seems like such an out of the blue card in this deck, you opponent will be doing everything they can to get belcher into our gy but goblin welder messes everything up.
I could see it making our blue matchup better (those matches where we know we will not be able to go off on 1,2,or 3), but I don't see too much hope for him without haste ;[
Goblin Welder and Xantid Swarm work well together because you can protect the play you actually want to make by baiting with the other (if you have both in hand that is). Welder helps you sneak Belcher into play, and having Grim Monolith as acceleration gives you more artifacts to choose from as fodder.
Can you guys tell me if belcher is still viable in the current meta? I know Zoo is one of the deck to beat so Belcher stand a good chance. I really want to build this deck but I need confirmation before investing for 4x LED.
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Currently playing: Soul SistersWB & The GateB Vial KnightsW & Crucible PoxB Faerie StompyU & BurnR
So you can win with 6 mana + Burning Wish immediately if you don't think Goblin tokens will get it done.
And I think Belcher will be viable as long as there's some aggro in the field and the odds of winning a coin-flip remain 50/50. You want those LEDs for most every combo deck anyway, snatch them up.
So you can win with 6 mana + Burning Wish immediately if you don't think Goblin tokens will get it done.
And I think Belcher will be viable as long as there's some aggro in the field and the odds of winning a coin-flip remain 50/50. You want those LEDs for most every combo deck anyway, snatch them up.
That was the argument I was waiting for... but for the price I'm paying, I would have bought them anyway hehehe
Also, which version you think stand a better chance? 1 or 2 land belcher?
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Currently playing: Soul SistersWB & The GateB Vial KnightsW & Crucible PoxB Faerie StompyU & BurnR
Thanx, I totally think 2 colors belcher would stand a better chance. I'm stiil going to build both deck and see for myself. Another question come to mind... if my meta is full of counter/top... should I even try to play this ?
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if my meta is full of counter/top... should I even try to play this ?
If you're going to have to play a lot of matches against Force of Will decks like Countertop and Merfolk (more than usual, anyway), Belcher is probably not the right combo deck to bring.
If you're going to have to play a lot of matches against Force of Will decks like Countertop and Merfolk (more than usual, anyway), Belcher is probably not the right combo deck to bring.
it's rough vs merfolk, but counter-top, especially if it's the UW counter-top sword-thopter deck is beatable...just keep dropping an irrelevant mana source into play for a few turns, then push for it, vs control often a gobbo of 4/6 will get them.......and especially game 2, try to achieve a point where you can lure them into playing a chalice or ethersworn canonist, (be aware they will board in canonist...this game keep your artifact manas in hand) if they've tapped out or down to 1, to play it, they are holding a FoW (count cards in hand, if less than 5 it is unlikely they can support two FoW's this turn, try to go off now.
I also run 2 lands but only R/G.
Duress is not needed nor is dark ritual needed. There is enough acceleration in red and green to sufficiently power out goblins or a belcher. Manamorphose raising storm count is a minor bonus to running the card and smoothing out mana is nice true but at the same time the card can be really terrible depending on what you draw off of it.
@Lyme: I don't understand why you would be running 2 lands in a list of belcher without black are you aiming for the long game to be able to land grant multiple times? Because it seems terrible to aim for the long game with belcher which you never want to do because every turn you don't win is another chance for the opponent to draw something good against you like FoW, EE for tokens, pernicious deed, e. plague, etc. etc.
For boarding I would probably board out grim monolith's for swarm/pyroblast/guttural response. If you run morphose/street wraith I would board those out first though. Another weakish card is pyretic/desperate ritual if you're bringing in more than 4 cards.
Currently Playing:
Retired
4 Burning Wish
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrena
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
1 Tiaga
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
1 Cave-In
1 Grapeshot
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pact of Negation
1 Goblin War Strike
I'm not rly sure if that is a serious question? If it is, the point is obvious. You only use it if you have a chance to win the turn you play it. The 5cc is a non factor
I wouldn't count on opponents siding out removal anymore. Since ANT and TES have become more popular, people have learned to prepare for Xantid Swarm at the very least, making your manplan far less effective. Xantid is good bait if you plan to drop Deus but generally I find that Belcher cannot effectively support a man plan. SI does it far better. The builds that utilize Burning Wish tend to be more effective. Further, your SB proposition lacks both Diminish Returns, Empty the Warrens, and Hull Breach, three cards no Belcher Wish board should be without.
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And against control decks what do you side out?
I havent ever seen anyone else play this deck at a tournament, so it's hard to judge if I am playing it correctly.
In last week's legacy tournament I never went off on turn 1 or 2.
Right, I get that. Pyroblast/REB is the right call. I was one-eighth serious.
Never side out Belcher. You can sometimes land that against an opponent who has countered your Burning Wish, or just with perpetual resources like lands and Chrome Mox that will stay around to let you top deck a game winning WC like Belcher. Especially when you expect to see countermagic, you will need to have more business maindeck or else you will have to wait to topdeck business.. which could take too long if your opponent has a clock. Having more business insures that you won't take too long to go off if you fail on one attempt. Side out cyclers like Manamorphose and/or Street Wraith first, then extra acceleration that is sure to be countered like Seething Song.
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Belcher
Lands
1 Taiga
Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Grim Monolith
Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Simplify
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
3 Shattering Spree
3 Goblin Welder
4 Xantid Swarm
Goblin Welder and Xantid Swarm work well together because you can protect the play you actually want to make by baiting with the other (if you have both in hand that is). Welder helps you sneak Belcher into play, and having Grim Monolith as acceleration gives you more artifacts to choose from as fodder.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
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Bayou opens up alot of doors for belcher, and it brings with it allot of consistency that 1 or 0 land belcher fight to have. Dark Ritual is more mana efficient than other spells available (other than seething song), it goes off quicker, and is in general more conducive to a T1 belch.
Infernal tutor is the best thing available to us, it functions as LED and Belcher 5-8. Spoils of the vault is scary efficient at what it does, lifeloss from it is negligible because if I am playing it then I will be going off that turn.
With both tutors I keep FAR more hands than I would otherwise and it leads to a much more reliable T1 belch, however it should be noted that it does bring the risk of fizzling (which doesn't happen often).
I used to play with burning wish and a wishboard, but after a while I realized that nothing I ever got with wish is what I actually wanted (usually either an LED or a belcher). For this reason I decided to cut the package entirley and replace it with Spoils and Infernal.
Another Card I have looked at very seriously is Ill-Gotten Gains. It seems like it could be a fantastic card for making T1 belches happen (grabbing LED's from the grave. Perhaps someday I will test it (2b is somewhat of a turnoff, WTB Black elvish spirit guide)
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
// Creatures
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
// Spells
4x Manamorphose
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Dark Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Chrome Mox
4x Pyroblast
3x Natures Claim
3x Cave-in
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Leyline of the Void
I am extremely intrigued by the idea of goblin welder. It seems like such an out of the blue card in this deck, you opponent will be doing everything they can to get belcher into our gy but goblin welder messes everything up.
I could see it making our blue matchup better (those matches where we know we will not be able to go off on 1,2,or 3), but I don't see too much hope for him without haste ;[
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Soul Sisters WB & The Gate B
Vial Knights W & Crucible Pox B
Faerie Stompy U & Burn R
So you can win with 6 mana + Burning Wish immediately if you don't think Goblin tokens will get it done.
And I think Belcher will be viable as long as there's some aggro in the field and the odds of winning a coin-flip remain 50/50. You want those LEDs for most every combo deck anyway, snatch them up.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
That was the argument I was waiting for... but for the price I'm paying, I would have bought them anyway hehehe
Also, which version you think stand a better chance? 1 or 2 land belcher?
Soul Sisters WB & The Gate B
Vial Knights W & Crucible Pox B
Faerie Stompy U & Burn R
Soul Sisters WB & The Gate B
Vial Knights W & Crucible Pox B
Faerie Stompy U & Burn R
-if this is the case you are definitely playing it wrong.
I would expect to go-off by turn two every round, this is why we play belcher, it's fast.
it's rough vs merfolk, but counter-top, especially if it's the UW counter-top sword-thopter deck is beatable...just keep dropping an irrelevant mana source into play for a few turns, then push for it, vs control often a gobbo of 4/6 will get them.......and especially game 2, try to achieve a point where you can lure them into playing a chalice or ethersworn canonist, (be aware they will board in canonist...this game keep your artifact manas in hand) if they've tapped out or down to 1, to play it, they are holding a FoW (count cards in hand, if less than 5 it is unlikely they can support two FoW's this turn, try to go off now.