I think there are plenty of good arguments to be made for considering black versions of the deck, and certainly Spanish Inquisition shares a lot of overlap with Belcher in terms of strategy and speed. Red has a plethora of good ritual spells which makes mulligans simpler, and the deck somewhat more consistent. Black on the other hand grants some more tutors and the "easier" win route of Tendrils vs. Empty, plus there is disruption which can't be discounted.
Still, I don't know that Empty the Warrens is any more "old news" than Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony. High level players are going to know what and when to counter either way. In fact, your SAINT list lacks what I think is Belcher's best counter-workaround which is getting to 3 mana and then using Spirit Guides for the last little bit of mana for an Empty the Warrens, it's won me a few games.
The Tallmen have their merits, and I'm a big fan of trying out different variants on the "Classic" Belcher build, but as with anything I would like to see data pointing to this being a truly "better" build before endorsing it.
Empty the Warrens is old news in the sense that people are prepared for it. Its harder to prepare for Ad Nauseam because once Ad Nauseam resolves, you win. That isn't necessarily the case with Empty the Warrens. Frequently, other combo decks can race your typical turn 3/4 win. Granted Empty the Warrens is sometimes better than Ad Nauseam against permission but only if an opponent lets you get to 4 mana.. and not with the popular tendency to board in Flusterstorms post-board. In fact, I'd been playing Empty the Warrens in PSI in my post-board to beat RUG. Then, people started getting smart and playing Rough/Tumble post-board and just wiping my team before I could get there. Its not as reliable as a business spell as it used to be. It still gets there, but I don't think it should be Belcher's focus if the deck wants to change with the times.
On the other hand.. Ad Nauseam isn't old news because the builds it typically gets played in tend to be less explosive and wait on cantrips/protection to maximize its effectiveness as a business spell. An explosive build of Ad Nauseam that can also play Belcher isn't something you encounter at all. However, the fact that Ad Nauseam is so explosive and sure to kill when it resolves early on turns 1 or 2 means that it ought to be pursued in Belcher and SI shells as well.. since those shells can maximize the explosiveness of Ad Nauseam. Compare AdN to Reforge the Soul at 3RR. Reforge wasn't really good in Belcher because it had trouble consistently playing a business spell with the new 7. And yet it was still pursued because it was on color with the red rituals. But Ad Nauseam is on color with the more explosive rituals and is a sure kill. Culling the Weak, IMS, Tallman gets you to 4 mana. That means you can play Belcher, pass, or activate it with LED, perpetuals or spare mana. Add 1 mana to Culling the Weak, and you can play Ad Nauseam. Its disgusting how much more explosive the black rituals are. And when your business spell is virtually a sure-fire kill.. you're actually able to beat decks that aren't simply disruptionless aggro. The mid-range decks are prepared for Empty the Warrens. The permission decks even prepare for Empty the Warrens. The combo decks have faster clocks and lately have even been able to run Force of Will in Omni-Show, High Tide, etc. Even Maverick/DnT have a consistent 2 drop bear to answer Belcher/EtW. The deck simply has to get faster and more explosive with Ad Nauseam because the only way to prepare for a turn 1 Ad Nauseam or Belcher.. is permission. Then, with that niche and lack of Burning Wish, you can assemble as sideboard plan that is specifically optimized to beat permission decks.
Though the Spirit Guide route outside of Daze protection also allows you to get to 4 mana for Empty the Warrens.. the rituals are less explosive and therefore you have to use more of them to go off. SAINT hands with both Mox Opal and Chrome Mox are extremely dangerous because the rituals add so much mana that going off a second time is far easier than it is in Classic Belcher where you have to invest a storm count 7/11 times, meaning you expose more of your resources to a denied (by permission) combo attempt. Also.. when it comes to multiple combo attempts.. Cabal Rituals become increasingly more dangerous as the graveyard fills up quickly with tallmen and acceleration. A single Cabal Ritual can cast Ad Nauseam for an investment of 1B from your initial mana sources. That means with, say, 2 perpetual resources and threshold, you're able to come back from almost nothing with Ad Nauseam and Crit.
The problem with playing inside the limitations of Classic Belcher is that the variations are extremely limited.. as seen by the fact that a someone has yet to build 'a better mouse-trap' in the RG Belcher shell. I've done a ton of experimenting myself with Recross the Paths, Reforge the Soul, Wishless builds, Personal Tutor/Reforge, Serum Powder, black splash for Drit, etc. None of these builds is faster or more consistent and nothing has really been successfully added to the deck except for perhaps a wishboard Reforge the Soul and/or Gitaxian Probe.
I'd say people dismiss the sideboard in Belcher too soon because they want a unnecessarily large wishboard full of cards they might use once in 50 games with effectiveness when the board could be more specialized to evade permission. I've mentioned several times in this thread that a man plan transformation ought to be explored since Belcher can dodge Daze quite often and creatures dodge Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Spell Snare.. while Counterspell isn't online til turn 2. Further, decks like RUG can't deal with creatures that have such high toughness. Granted, UW variants have Swords but if you can improve your RUG matchup with the sideboard man plan.. why wouldn't you? I think a few people have actually tried this with success but its not really catching on as much as I'd hoped.
I've done some (minimal) testing of the man-plan route and haven't found a great deal of success so far but I think it's an approach with some merits. I can particularly see the value in something like Thrun, the Last Troll. It's really a shame Akroma, Angel of Fury is just a little out of reach for Belcher as I think she'd be pretty ideal in this particular slot.
You don't play Burning Wish.. so you can actually have a sideboard or you play a micro wishboard of a single Empty the Warrens. Then, you load up the board with red/green creatures. There's a bunch. I'm too lazy to list them all because a couple pages back there should be a list somewhere. There's a few people experimenting with it.
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Pulpfiction from TheSource actually used to play them in his maindeck, but Bloodmoon not the Magus. Against something like RUG, Magus doesn't **** them as hard cause they can use the red mana to kill it. But if they are stuck with Mountains they can't get a clock outside of reach spells.
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Then learn to mulligan more effectively or don't play it because its not good in the metagame. Its great if you're in a heavy control metagame and people are starting to play fewer and fewer basics. People absolutely must play basics if they encounter Bloodmoon effects but without Moon, Crucible, or Loam being heavily played, people can get away with not playing them.
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Im starting to see a problem here, people keep trying to change the formula for the deck by adding things that dont really seem worth it.
Now its fine and all when new cards come out, as t be expected (Deathrite Shaman being a big one). But when we are in the middle of sets and people are doing this with older cards, you have to wonder: If this card hasnt been used before, why not?
Maybe its because no one connected cards to make a deck that could compete in Legacy (12 post recently), but usually, its because the cards are either inferior or its not worth it.
What does Erayo do for this deck? Nothing. And it makes it worse as now you need to produce blue to drop her and nothing else in the deck needs blue
What does Blood Moon do for this deck? The deck it hurts most can still force you.
Hi, I don't actually play Belcher. The Combo slot in my list of decks is currently being taken up by my Past in Flames deck. It is, in some ways, similar to Belcher. I play my namesake card for 4 mana and usually win after that. My deck can kill with Banefire, which is making me consider using no storm cards outside of Brain Freeze. I feel like Belcher players would be best suited to help me in my endeavor to make mono-red combo fast and resilient. In the developing forum I have a thread regarding the Past in Flames deck.
I'm also considering using a transformation sideboard that flips into a sub-par Belcher deck for the surprise element. If anyone here is interested in helping me develop the deck, please PM me, post in the thread in developing, or find me on Cockatrice.
Lastly, if anyone needs a testing partner or any sort of assistance in optimizing decks/experience I love to help.
What does Blood Moon do for this deck? The deck it hurts most can still force you.
Yes they can still force it.. but its a business spell that costs 3. Belcher typically doesn't have access to anything less than 3 so its easier to protect once you hit post-board and if you run into countermagic, its much easier to cast with whatever else you have in hand. I've played it a few times on Cockatrice and the decks that it was good against.. it was game changing.
Also. This is Belcher.. aka lose to Force of Will.dec. It doesn't really matter what you're playing if you run into Force of Will. A well placed Force of Will is GG unless you have a killer hand. Bloodmoon, in some cases, is going to be just as good as dropping a bunch of Goblin tokens.. but when you add business spells via X copies of Bloodmoon, you have to mulligan less for business against these decks and can sit on a grip of spare resources while your opponent sits there playing duals and fetches that he can never use. Then, you go for the throat. If they have Force of Will? Cool. You have a lot of time. If they are playing RUG.. all they can do is play reach as their clock.. in topdeck mode. If you're playing any sort of UW variant, they practically autolose to turn 1 Bloodmoon unless they topdeck a basic. If you're playing against a combo deck like Reanimator, Omnishell, etc. they are extremely slowed down and potentially not even able to go off at all unless they hit basics. Bloodmoon is killer in some matchups. It might be sideboard material, it might be mainboard material. I've seen it played and tried it both ways. Both were pretty good in limited testing and the tournament reports I've read.
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I'm agreement with some of what Macius is talking about. Some of these suggestions look like spam/troll comments -- but I'm not sure if that's the intention. Please keep the focus on building/improving Belcher.dec. Friendly reminder.
-Warden
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Trash for Treasure seems interesting, just out of curiosity how often has it been relevant? I still prefer Pyroclasm to Cave-In not that they would be hard to switch for each-other, I'm curious as to what others have experienced?
It is situational, but does pull wins out of nowhere after it is countered or thoughtsiezed. I prefer to have more sideboard options that win game 1 than dilute the deck games 2/3. I would play imperial recruiter if I had any because xantid swarm is amazing.
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Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
That seems to be the case in my playtesting and biweekly tournaments. Other decks seem to be fine, even with the counterspells. The local Legacy scene is decent as there's a diverse range of decks (12post, High Tide, RUG Delver, Maverick, Enchantress, Goblins, Affinity, etc.) But I think the only deck I really struggle with is Esper, because it seems to pack all the hate cards that are so good against us. Between the counterspells, the Thoughtseize when they're on the play, and even the Batterskull... it's an uphill battle. I managed to fight through some counters and combo with Empty the Warrens - only to have Batterskull be played and catch up on life.
Any tips on this match-up? I do pretty well in the bi-weekly tournaments, but last night afterward at some good ol' IHOP testing, I went 1-5 against Esper.
The one win? Because he took a terrible one-land hand.
Yeah, Esper Stoneblade is a pretty difficult match-up, the combination of hand disruption, countermagic, and life-gain potential makes things rather difficult. No really brilliant suggestions here, obviously going off early and being on the play help, Xantid Swarm (if it sticks) can be great, Past in Flames in your wishboard, and maybe just trying out some other sideboard options to see if they help with things.
I'm not positive about that. It has plusses, obviously, a lower mana cost and more flexibility. On the other hand Trash for Treasure is red (which can sometimes make a difference), and puts the card (presumably Belcher) directly into play. I don't run either of them currently but I can see an argument made that either are worthwhile.
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
If I am going up against heavy blue countermagic decks my general sideboard plan is:
+4 Xantid Swarm
+2 Pyroblast or +2 Carpet of Flowers
(I pick Carpet over Pyroblast if I expect more Spell Pierce like counters, or a bigger density of counters, where the mana production matters. Blast is best when Force is the only real thing you have to contend with).
For those that are still pushing belcher, best of luck to you, I have set my belcher deck aside & I am no longer pushing it, unfortunately for belcher, my local metagames just have more blue than anything else, so I can't really push it there but once in a great while just as a surprise factor when most everyone doesn't expect it, at bigger events I did let a friend borrow Belcher for the Los Angeles Open last week, but they only walked out with a 4 win 5 loss record, saying they kept running into people with force of will's as well.
In either case, this deck was the hardest of all the decks I've let go recently because it's my first real legacy / type 1.5 deck, since I've basically had some version of a belcher deck, all the way back when it used to be 2 land belcher before it became what it is now. So for those still playing it, good luck out there and keep throwing people for a loop when they don't see it coming!
In belcher's defense however, it did get 10th in Las Vegas!
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Still, I don't know that Empty the Warrens is any more "old news" than Ad Nauseam and Tendrils of Agony. High level players are going to know what and when to counter either way. In fact, your SAINT list lacks what I think is Belcher's best counter-workaround which is getting to 3 mana and then using Spirit Guides for the last little bit of mana for an Empty the Warrens, it's won me a few games.
The Tallmen have their merits, and I'm a big fan of trying out different variants on the "Classic" Belcher build, but as with anything I would like to see data pointing to this being a truly "better" build before endorsing it.
On the other hand.. Ad Nauseam isn't old news because the builds it typically gets played in tend to be less explosive and wait on cantrips/protection to maximize its effectiveness as a business spell. An explosive build of Ad Nauseam that can also play Belcher isn't something you encounter at all. However, the fact that Ad Nauseam is so explosive and sure to kill when it resolves early on turns 1 or 2 means that it ought to be pursued in Belcher and SI shells as well.. since those shells can maximize the explosiveness of Ad Nauseam. Compare AdN to Reforge the Soul at 3RR. Reforge wasn't really good in Belcher because it had trouble consistently playing a business spell with the new 7. And yet it was still pursued because it was on color with the red rituals. But Ad Nauseam is on color with the more explosive rituals and is a sure kill. Culling the Weak, IMS, Tallman gets you to 4 mana. That means you can play Belcher, pass, or activate it with LED, perpetuals or spare mana. Add 1 mana to Culling the Weak, and you can play Ad Nauseam. Its disgusting how much more explosive the black rituals are. And when your business spell is virtually a sure-fire kill.. you're actually able to beat decks that aren't simply disruptionless aggro. The mid-range decks are prepared for Empty the Warrens. The permission decks even prepare for Empty the Warrens. The combo decks have faster clocks and lately have even been able to run Force of Will in Omni-Show, High Tide, etc. Even Maverick/DnT have a consistent 2 drop bear to answer Belcher/EtW. The deck simply has to get faster and more explosive with Ad Nauseam because the only way to prepare for a turn 1 Ad Nauseam or Belcher.. is permission. Then, with that niche and lack of Burning Wish, you can assemble as sideboard plan that is specifically optimized to beat permission decks.
Though the Spirit Guide route outside of Daze protection also allows you to get to 4 mana for Empty the Warrens.. the rituals are less explosive and therefore you have to use more of them to go off. SAINT hands with both Mox Opal and Chrome Mox are extremely dangerous because the rituals add so much mana that going off a second time is far easier than it is in Classic Belcher where you have to invest a storm count 7/11 times, meaning you expose more of your resources to a denied (by permission) combo attempt. Also.. when it comes to multiple combo attempts.. Cabal Rituals become increasingly more dangerous as the graveyard fills up quickly with tallmen and acceleration. A single Cabal Ritual can cast Ad Nauseam for an investment of 1B from your initial mana sources. That means with, say, 2 perpetual resources and threshold, you're able to come back from almost nothing with Ad Nauseam and Crit.
The problem with playing inside the limitations of Classic Belcher is that the variations are extremely limited.. as seen by the fact that a someone has yet to build 'a better mouse-trap' in the RG Belcher shell. I've done a ton of experimenting myself with Recross the Paths, Reforge the Soul, Wishless builds, Personal Tutor/Reforge, Serum Powder, black splash for Drit, etc. None of these builds is faster or more consistent and nothing has really been successfully added to the deck except for perhaps a wishboard Reforge the Soul and/or Gitaxian Probe.
I'd say people dismiss the sideboard in Belcher too soon because they want a unnecessarily large wishboard full of cards they might use once in 50 games with effectiveness when the board could be more specialized to evade permission. I've mentioned several times in this thread that a man plan transformation ought to be explored since Belcher can dodge Daze quite often and creatures dodge Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and Spell Snare.. while Counterspell isn't online til turn 2. Further, decks like RUG can't deal with creatures that have such high toughness. Granted, UW variants have Swords but if you can improve your RUG matchup with the sideboard man plan.. why wouldn't you? I think a few people have actually tried this with success but its not really catching on as much as I'd hoped.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
My first picks would be:
Burning Wish
Seething Song
I've done some (minimal) testing of the man-plan route and haven't found a great deal of success so far but I think it's an approach with some merits. I can particularly see the value in something like Thrun, the Last Troll. It's really a shame Akroma, Angel of Fury is just a little out of reach for Belcher as I think she'd be pretty ideal in this particular slot.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
No.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Now its fine and all when new cards come out, as t be expected (Deathrite Shaman being a big one). But when we are in the middle of sets and people are doing this with older cards, you have to wonder: If this card hasnt been used before, why not?
Maybe its because no one connected cards to make a deck that could compete in Legacy (12 post recently), but usually, its because the cards are either inferior or its not worth it.
What does Erayo do for this deck? Nothing. And it makes it worse as now you need to produce blue to drop her and nothing else in the deck needs blue
What does Blood Moon do for this deck? The deck it hurts most can still force you.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI'm also considering using a transformation sideboard that flips into a sub-par Belcher deck for the surprise element. If anyone here is interested in helping me develop the deck, please PM me, post in the thread in developing, or find me on Cockatrice.
Lastly, if anyone needs a testing partner or any sort of assistance in optimizing decks/experience I love to help.
Thank you for your time, ladies and gentlemen.
Play Legacy and EDH.
Modern is silly.
Also. This is Belcher.. aka lose to Force of Will.dec. It doesn't really matter what you're playing if you run into Force of Will. A well placed Force of Will is GG unless you have a killer hand. Bloodmoon, in some cases, is going to be just as good as dropping a bunch of Goblin tokens.. but when you add business spells via X copies of Bloodmoon, you have to mulligan less for business against these decks and can sit on a grip of spare resources while your opponent sits there playing duals and fetches that he can never use. Then, you go for the throat. If they have Force of Will? Cool. You have a lot of time. If they are playing RUG.. all they can do is play reach as their clock.. in topdeck mode. If you're playing any sort of UW variant, they practically autolose to turn 1 Bloodmoon unless they topdeck a basic. If you're playing against a combo deck like Reanimator, Omnishell, etc. they are extremely slowed down and potentially not even able to go off at all unless they hit basics. Bloodmoon is killer in some matchups. It might be sideboard material, it might be mainboard material. I've seen it played and tried it both ways. Both were pretty good in limited testing and the tournament reports I've read.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
-Warden
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Grim Monolith
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Creatures: 12
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
Land: 1
1x Taiga
Sorceries: 15
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
2x Autumn's Veil
4x Carpet of Flowers
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Snow-Covered Forest
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Trash for Treasure seems interesting, just out of curiosity how often has it been relevant? I still prefer Pyroclasm to Cave-In not that they would be hard to switch for each-other, I'm curious as to what others have experienced?
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
That seems to be the case in my playtesting and biweekly tournaments. Other decks seem to be fine, even with the counterspells. The local Legacy scene is decent as there's a diverse range of decks (12post, High Tide, RUG Delver, Maverick, Enchantress, Goblins, Affinity, etc.) But I think the only deck I really struggle with is Esper, because it seems to pack all the hate cards that are so good against us. Between the counterspells, the Thoughtseize when they're on the play, and even the Batterskull... it's an uphill battle. I managed to fight through some counters and combo with Empty the Warrens - only to have Batterskull be played and catch up on life.
Any tips on this match-up? I do pretty well in the bi-weekly tournaments, but last night afterward at some good ol' IHOP testing, I went 1-5 against Esper.
The one win? Because he took a terrible one-land hand.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
I'm not positive about that. It has plusses, obviously, a lower mana cost and more flexibility. On the other hand Trash for Treasure is red (which can sometimes make a difference), and puts the card (presumably Belcher) directly into play. I don't run either of them currently but I can see an argument made that either are worthwhile.
Standard
Modern
Living End Combo
Legacy
T.E.S.
TezzAffinity
Combo Elves
Belcher
Forgemaster Combo
High Tide
Solidarity
Merfolk
Burn
Goblins
UnLEDed Dredge
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
If I am going up against heavy blue countermagic decks my general sideboard plan is:
+4 Xantid Swarm
+2 Pyroblast or +2 Carpet of Flowers
(I pick Carpet over Pyroblast if I expect more Spell Pierce like counters, or a bigger density of counters, where the mana production matters. Blast is best when Force is the only real thing you have to contend with).
-2 Burning Wish
-2 Seething Song
-2 Manamorphose
In either case, this deck was the hardest of all the decks I've let go recently because it's my first real legacy / type 1.5 deck, since I've basically had some version of a belcher deck, all the way back when it used to be 2 land belcher before it became what it is now. So for those still playing it, good luck out there and keep throwing people for a loop when they don't see it coming!
In belcher's defense however, it did get 10th in Las Vegas!