Why isn't Grim Monolith in the primer? Why is it bad? What am I missing? Its 2 mana for 3 mana. How is this bad? Even if you have two in your hand, Empty The Warrens only needs a single red mana to be cast, the rest is colorless.
How many artifacts could you run until Goblin Welder becomes viable?
Also, what am I missing about Lion's Eye Diamond? Why do people insist on playing 4 copies of this when it discards their hand? I've seen lists cutting two and play two instead, and one or two Seething Song instead of 4.
Wouldn't an ideal list be playing 2 monoliths and 2 led if anything?
I have no LED and I wanted to play something $heaper to replace 4 of 8 cantrips but it just seems to work better anyway.
even if I had 4 LED I'd play 4 monoliths or even cut two LEDs for a couple manamorphose
My ideal list would be something like,
1 Taiga
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty The Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite Of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Grim Monolith
4 Seething Song
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Gitaxian Probe
note: A Rite Of Flame tossed into the sideboard is something you can do with Burning Wish in situations when you just want to storm and you've played a Rite Of Flame already, you'll spend 3 mana for 3 mana
Lion's Eye Diamond allows for more mana when using a tutor, cast tutor and tap sac the LED while it's on the stack for mana, then the tutor resolves and you have extra mana and your win con in hand.
However, what is everyone's thoughts on choosing to draw (assuming you win the roll).
I don't know where the idea of taking the draw originated from but it is wrong. The only reason to be on the draw is if you plan to discard a card into your graveyard on turn 1 when playing Reanimator or manaless Dredge.
Whether you play or draw first, your first turn drawing a card is after your opponent has had a turn. Sure, when you draw first your opponent has 1 less card, but you've had 1 less TURN. Spells that draw you a card cost U and usually do something else too. Spells that give you an extra turn cost at least 3UU.
Lastly, you have a real chance of going off with seven cards and then you will still have a chance to go off with 8 on your second turn. The only time it is bad to be on the play is when you cannot go off on turn 1 and your opponent draws a disruption spell with their first turn. The chance of this is less likely than your chance of going off on turn 1 with 7.
ALWAYS play first. No matter what deck your opponent is playing.
Why isn't Grim Monolith in the primer? Why is it bad? What am I missing? Its 2 mana for 3 mana. How is this bad? Even if you have two in your hand, Empty The Warrens only needs a single red mana to be cast, the rest is colorless.
How many artifacts could you run until Goblin Welder becomes viable?
Also, what am I missing about Lion's Eye Diamond? Why do people insist on playing 4 copies of this when it discards their hand? I've seen lists cutting two and play two instead, and one or two Seething Song instead of 4.
I am not seeing the benefit of Grim Monolith. The deck already has access to more 3 for 2 spells than it needs. Also, it frequently needs red mana, not colorless. Even though it is a permanent, it tends to be a one time thing, not really better than the 3 for 2 spells already available.
Goblin Welder...no. What exchange would you make that would be beneficial enough to harm the consistency of the deck?
Lion's Eye Diamond serves two powerful functions and one lesser function. It can be sac'ed after casting Burning Wish to give you mana to cast whatever you grab (and this is usually drawback free as you have usually emptied your hand anyways). It can also give you the mana to activate a Charbelcher the turn you play it. Finally, it can be a free storm builder.
LED also allows you to be able to win of of topdeck.
Lets say you go off and it happens that you ca drop belcher, but cant activate it because you just didnt draw right off the cantrips. Later on, all you need with belcher out is one LED and there you go.
As said before, it is also free storm and if you use Reforge the Soul, its drawback becomes nil.
I am not seeing the benefit of Grim Monolith. The deck already has access to more 3 for 2 spells than it needs. Also, it frequently needs red mana, not colorless. Even though it is a permanent, it tends to be a one time thing, not really better than the 3 for 2 spells already available.
but I have played games where I have cantrip'd into the wrong card ,and would have won the game had my cantrip just been something as dinky as a Grim Monolith I would have had the game.
but I have played games where I have cantrip'd into the wrong card ,and would have won the game had my cantrip just been something as dinky as a Grim Monolith I would have had the game.
But is it really balanced out where you need to draw a card and draw a Monolith.
What if you dont have the mana to cast monolith? You now have a dead card.
Sadly, Belcher is a glass cannon and thats what makes it so great... It just can chug up and explode... for better or worse.
The monolith has me thinking too. Why not another ritual? It adds to redundancy which in turn means more consistancy. mulling is easier because you dont have blind cantrips. Its a colorless ritual, yes, but since our wincons usually use 1 or no red mana, why is this bad?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
The monolith has me thinking too. Why not another ritual? It adds to redundancy which in turn means more consistancy. mulling is easier because you dont have blind cantrips. Its a colorless ritual, yes, but since our wincons usually use 1 or no red mana, why is this bad?
I think I agree with this, actually.
Like...if you're not playing Monolith, what are you playing instead, and why is it better?
But is it really balanced out where you need to draw a card and draw a Monolith.
What if you dont have the mana to cast monolith? You now have a dead card.
Sadly, Belcher is a glass cannon and thats what makes it so great... It just can chug up and explode... for better or worse.
If you don't have the mana to cast a Grim Monolith you should have mulligan'd in the first place
these are the only cards that can get you to 1-2 mana in the deck,
this article explains really nicely how and when to mulligan
Belcher is not a glass cannon. its a coin flip deck.. play first and know when to mulligan and when not to, if you're not playing against blue you stand a good chance, unless your opponent happens to steal a game away from you from siding in a board wiper after you Empty The Warrens you are in good shape.
If you open with a mediocre hand and then pray that you will cantrip into the card you need you are not doing it right.
also, if you suspect your deck is strong enough against your opponent, after knowing their deck, then go 2nd
Adding monolith still leaves 39 imprintable cards on mox, so I don't see an issue here. Furthermore, it would open up the possibility of running mox opal since you would have 20 artifacts in the deck. Maybe a 3/1 or 2/2 split.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Yes, but you drop the opal and tap it before you sac LED or petal...thought that much was self explanitory. If monolith pans out, opal is definitely worth mentioning.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Yes, but you drop the opal and tap it before you sac LED or petal...thought that much was self explanitory. If monolith pans out, opal is definitely worth mentioning.
Worth mentioning, but I'd say that's about it.
In the deck, we already have LED as a card that doesn't work half of the time. But when it does work, it is a Black Lotus and it probably is winning you the game. Mox Opal is basically a Lotus Petal when you can turn it on, and that is not worth the gamble of having it ever not work.
Basically, if you *don't* play Mox Opal, you don't need to play the odds that it will make mana. Making the deck run smoothly means reducing the amount of luck/varience you need to have swing your way to make everything work; Mox Opal is an additional coin flip in your coin flip deck, and it is harder to win two coin flips instead of one. I would go so far as saying that a player would deserve to lose if the reason they lost was that they played Mox Opal in their deck and couldn't get it to make mana.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot--how many Mox Opal would you even play, anyway? Any more than one opens you to having Double Mox Opal draws that are auto mulligans, and there's the marginal chance (you don't need to be taking) that your opponent is on the play and also plays Mox Opal. Adding to the number of cards your opponents could possibly have to dismantle you is not a good thing.
ESG-SSG-Grim Monolith-Seething Song-Song-Burning Wish-LED
This does seem like a mull if Monolith were a free cantrip instead, so I guess that's one for Monolith.
SSG-SSG-Tinder Wall-Grim Monolith-Grim Monolith-Wish-Song/LED
Aha, here's a flaky hand! Might have been worth keeping if both Monoliths were Manamorphoses, but this hand can't be cast for profit at all in its current state.
ESG-SSG-Grim Monolith-Grim Monolith-Song-Song-Belcher
This one might have been a keep if both Monoliths were free cantrips, but we still can't actually cast Belcher with this hand, so it's a mull.
...Can anyone else find some more hands that Monoliths screw up but free cantrips might salvage? I might be finding some, but they're surprisingly hard to synthesize (Petal-Chrome Mox-Grim Monolith-Tinder Wall-Song-Song-Wish is a keep, for example).
You mull those hands, just like you would with 2 cantrips and not enough mana. Of course its situationally bad if you draw 2, same as:
LED
Tinder wall
Belcher (wish, empty)
Empty the warrens (wish, belcher)
Land grant (taiga)
Burning wish (empty, belcher)
chrome mox
Gitaxian probe
Manamorphose
Street wraith
These often create awkward hands in multiples, though I will say chrome mox helps smooth this a bit by making use of over half this list when it itself isnt the culprit.
I think after goldfishing for the last couple hours, i am going to switch to them. The only time I would rather have manamorphose is on some hands with chrome mox and for multiple tinder wall hands. It has made a rediculous amount of hands keepable where the would be questionable had it been a blind cantrip. It doesnt help the storm count like cantrips do, but it makes hands more consistant, so instead of 12-16 goblins most of the time, I get 10-12 goblins nearly every time. And its just another ritual with belcher.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Yes, 4 of all three 2-drops. I must say I like the consistancy it adds, though the clunky hands it makes with 2 may have me cutting it to a 2 or 3 of.
edit: I think the 2/2 split is ideal. I prefer manamorphose over probe, but thats because I seem to get tinder wall or 2 with no green sources or just 1, respectively, more often than anybody else it seems.
I ran some testing with Grim Monolith vs. a more standard build of Belcher just to see what kind of results I would see.
I ran 20 games with each with the assumption that a Belcher activation or a Warrens of x8 or more would be "enough" to win. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it at least gave me some basic framework to work with.
The results?
Pretty similar. Both had an average of about 1 mulligan every other game, both went off/"won" on average around T2, and both had about a 3:2 ratio of Warrens wins to Belcher wins.
The main interesting piece was that the lack of filter cards (which are presumed to build storm count too) only increased the Warrens count by an average of 1x Goblin. Not a huge difference. But one probably worth some further testing (20 games each is not a huge sample size). Given that the majority of our wins will come from Warrens in these builds (either directly or through Wish) it's worth considering how much having 1-2x less/more Goblins might affect our win %.
But my takeaway is probably that a Monolith build (or Mana Belcher as I'd term it, since it's all mana production) is completely viable, just maybe not necessarily better or more consistent. Would be curious to see other people's takes.
For those interested in more detail on hand-composition, or whether my mulligan choices were wise you can check out my notes here. I neglected to include cards drawn.
I will do a similar analysis when I get time. Right now I am trying 2 grim monolith and 2 manamorphose.
I did notice a few turns where grim monolith made turn 2 belcher possible where cantripping had me wiff turn 1. Thanks for the info!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Fog Maze
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
You ought to separate Empty the Warrens 'wins' from the Belcher 'wins'. EtW gives you inevitability but not a guaranteed win. So if you are getting inevitability roughly on turn 2 with an average of about 12 tokens. You're roughly going to be winning on turn 4 about 60% of the time. The other about 36% (7/11 win conditions produce tokens) of your wins off Belcher are much more easily classified as wins.
I think the classic Belcher list sacrifices too much power by being too easy to play. Empty the Warrens is old news; people are prepared with Flusterstorm, they counter the ritual that would bring you to 3R, or they have board material if they know they are weak to it.
However.. if you switch to black rituals, you can still play Belcher in a much stronger version.. known as SAINT (by Emidln). Black rituals are FAR more explosive than red rituals; Dark Ritual nets you BB, Culling the Weak nets you BBB, and Cabal Ritual nets you B or BBB when you have threshold. Granted, red rituals are on color for Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish.. but Burning Wish is a weak card anyway because playing it tends to render your sideboard completely irrelevant. In fact, one might say that Belcher has the most irrelevant sideboard of any existing legacy deck. The black rituals, however, open up the possibility of relevant and even powerful sideboard plan. Further, it opens up the possibility of hitting double black for one of the most feared business spells in Legacy magic; Ad Nauseam.
Further, the use of sacrifical creatures for Culling the Weak opens up the possibility of Cabal Therapy, and perhaps even Gitaxian Probe. Probe, Therapy, Probe + Therapy, Therapy + Flashback, or Probe + Therapy + Flashback are all powerful pre-combo plays that can pave the way for successful combo turn through permission or even avoiding permanent hate so that you have more time to set up before your combo turn. Probe by itself can give you vital information about whether or not the coast is clear. Therapy by itself is just as deadly; either you've hit their Force of Will, or you see that they don't have one.. and with the explosiveness of the black rituals, you could safely go for IT/LED into a business spell, or simply cast one naturally from your hand.
Further, tallmen can serve further utility as blockers so that you have more life to use with Ad Nauseam.
SAINT by Emidln (list pulled from skeeter's report on the Stormboards)
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Opal
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
I've found this list to be rather underdeveloped, though its still quite powerful. I think it deserves way more attention given the relatively unchanging Classic Belcher list. The maindeck Bayou vs. Classic Belcher's singleton Taiga means you have a higher chance of Fizzling with Belcher, but the avg. Belch is still going to be lethal quite often. Further, the density of tallmen in the list means that mulligans are naturally going to be worse than in a deck like Belcher. Yet.. if you look at the business spells in this list, the avg. cost of the business spells is higher but compensated by the fact that the rituals produce, on average, more mana than Classic Belcher's red rituals.
Then again, the business spells are also far more dangerous. Belcher, Ad Nauseam, and Diabolic Intent require only resources rather than storm count; thus, perpetual resources such as Bayou, Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal become more valuable because a single ritual is sometimes all you will need to combo successfully. If you encounter permission while playing Classic Belcher.. you're going all in and usually a well played Spell Pierce, Daze, or Force can mean you won't be going off again before a Delver connects for lethal or they opponent has a new grip full of countermagic. Against, discard based disruption.. you have a slightly larger business density than Classic Belcher (12 vs. 11) and the need of 0 initial storm as well as more explosive rituals and more perpetual resources means playing against discard is automatically easier.
However, the deck is slightly harder to play.. mostly because it mulligans less effectively than Belcher.. Then again, the business spells themselves are just as easy to play with as those in Classic Belcher.
The sideboard is largely underdeveloped. I believe cards like Carpet of Flowers and Lotus Bloom deserve a second look to potentially grind out a successful combo turn with Cabal Therapy/Duress and an explosive turn 4 with either Lotus Bloom and/or Carpet of Flowers.
The other thing is this deck doesn't have as much natural Daze protection as Classic Belcher. Playing x8 spirit guides means you'll randomly win games against opponents who feel adequately protected under a fast clock and a single Daze. This deck has Mox Opal.. which is just as powerful as it is vulnerable to disruption like Daze. If they can keep you off your third artifact successfully with permission or even spot removal on something like Walk/Thopter, then a Mox that is necessary to your combo turn might set you back a turn or two. Further, the tallmen make the other Mox, Chrome Mox, less effective because you have fewer colored sources to imprint given the greater artifact density.
I don't think anyone has any definitive percentages on this list currently.. but it most certainly several turns faster than Belcher.. which I've found to lately only beat pure Aggro decks because other combo decks can race it by winning before turn 4. I'd say in terms of speed.. it falls right behind SI in terms of speed.. which makes sense given they both play a similar acceleration suite.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BUG Pact Spanish Inquisition BUG U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life: http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
How many artifacts could you run until Goblin Welder becomes viable?
Also, what am I missing about Lion's Eye Diamond? Why do people insist on playing 4 copies of this when it discards their hand? I've seen lists cutting two and play two instead, and one or two Seething Song instead of 4.
Wouldn't an ideal list be playing 2 monoliths and 2 led if anything?
I have no LED and I wanted to play something $heaper to replace 4 of 8 cantrips but it just seems to work better anyway.
even if I had 4 LED I'd play 4 monoliths or even cut two LEDs for a couple manamorphose
My ideal list would be something like,
1 Taiga
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty The Warrens
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite Of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Grim Monolith
4 Seething Song
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Gitaxian Probe
note: A Rite Of Flame tossed into the sideboard is something you can do with Burning Wish in situations when you just want to storm and you've played a Rite Of Flame already, you'll spend 3 mana for 3 mana
I don't know where the idea of taking the draw originated from but it is wrong. The only reason to be on the draw is if you plan to discard a card into your graveyard on turn 1 when playing Reanimator or manaless Dredge.
Whether you play or draw first, your first turn drawing a card is after your opponent has had a turn. Sure, when you draw first your opponent has 1 less card, but you've had 1 less TURN. Spells that draw you a card cost U and usually do something else too. Spells that give you an extra turn cost at least 3UU.
Lastly, you have a real chance of going off with seven cards and then you will still have a chance to go off with 8 on your second turn. The only time it is bad to be on the play is when you cannot go off on turn 1 and your opponent draws a disruption spell with their first turn. The chance of this is less likely than your chance of going off on turn 1 with 7.
ALWAYS play first. No matter what deck your opponent is playing.
I am not seeing the benefit of Grim Monolith. The deck already has access to more 3 for 2 spells than it needs. Also, it frequently needs red mana, not colorless. Even though it is a permanent, it tends to be a one time thing, not really better than the 3 for 2 spells already available.
Goblin Welder...no. What exchange would you make that would be beneficial enough to harm the consistency of the deck?
Lion's Eye Diamond serves two powerful functions and one lesser function. It can be sac'ed after casting Burning Wish to give you mana to cast whatever you grab (and this is usually drawback free as you have usually emptied your hand anyways). It can also give you the mana to activate a Charbelcher the turn you play it. Finally, it can be a free storm builder.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Lets say you go off and it happens that you ca drop belcher, but cant activate it because you just didnt draw right off the cantrips. Later on, all you need with belcher out is one LED and there you go.
As said before, it is also free storm and if you use Reforge the Soul, its drawback becomes nil.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI wasn't necessarily implying that it is a great ritual spell compared to Desperate Ritual or Pyretic Ritual
but I have played games where I have cantrip'd into the wrong card ,and would have won the game had my cantrip just been something as dinky as a Grim Monolith I would have had the game.
But is it really balanced out where you need to draw a card and draw a Monolith.
What if you dont have the mana to cast monolith? You now have a dead card.
Sadly, Belcher is a glass cannon and thats what makes it so great... It just can chug up and explode... for better or worse.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyModern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I think I agree with this, actually.
Like...if you're not playing Monolith, what are you playing instead, and why is it better?
If you don't have the mana to cast a Grim Monolith you should have mulligan'd in the first place
these are the only cards that can get you to 1-2 mana in the deck,
(17 cards that are reliable, out of 60) 1 - Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide , Land Grant Taiga
2 - Rite Of Flame, Tinder Wall
Your hand needs some combination of those cards to be able to play on the draw
*
It's Time To 'Belch by Ando Ferguson
this article explains really nicely how and when to mulligan
Belcher is not a glass cannon. its a coin flip deck.. play first and know when to mulligan and when not to, if you're not playing against blue you stand a good chance, unless your opponent happens to steal a game away from you from siding in a board wiper after you Empty The Warrens you are in good shape.
If you open with a mediocre hand and then pray that you will cantrip into the card you need you are not doing it right.
also, if you suspect your deck is strong enough against your opponent, after knowing their deck, then go 2nd
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Worth mentioning, but I'd say that's about it.
In the deck, we already have LED as a card that doesn't work half of the time. But when it does work, it is a Black Lotus and it probably is winning you the game. Mox Opal is basically a Lotus Petal when you can turn it on, and that is not worth the gamble of having it ever not work.
Basically, if you *don't* play Mox Opal, you don't need to play the odds that it will make mana. Making the deck run smoothly means reducing the amount of luck/varience you need to have swing your way to make everything work; Mox Opal is an additional coin flip in your coin flip deck, and it is harder to win two coin flips instead of one. I would go so far as saying that a player would deserve to lose if the reason they lost was that they played Mox Opal in their deck and couldn't get it to make mana.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot--how many Mox Opal would you even play, anyway? Any more than one opens you to having Double Mox Opal draws that are auto mulligans, and there's the marginal chance (you don't need to be taking) that your opponent is on the play and also plays Mox Opal. Adding to the number of cards your opponents could possibly have to dismantle you is not a good thing.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Most Definitely Not Flex Slots
Initial Mana Sources (25 cards)
That's 52 cards already. Let's see the flex slots, filled or not filled:
Flex Slots (8 cards)
All right, let's find some shady hands!
ESG-SSG-Grim Monolith-Seething Song-Song-Burning Wish-LED
This does seem like a mull if Monolith were a free cantrip instead, so I guess that's one for Monolith.
SSG-SSG-Tinder Wall-Grim Monolith-Grim Monolith-Wish-Song/LED
Aha, here's a flaky hand! Might have been worth keeping if both Monoliths were Manamorphoses, but this hand can't be cast for profit at all in its current state.
ESG-SSG-Grim Monolith-Grim Monolith-Song-Song-Belcher
This one might have been a keep if both Monoliths were free cantrips, but we still can't actually cast Belcher with this hand, so it's a mull.
...Can anyone else find some more hands that Monoliths screw up but free cantrips might salvage? I might be finding some, but they're surprisingly hard to synthesize (Petal-Chrome Mox-Grim Monolith-Tinder Wall-Song-Song-Wish is a keep, for example).
LED
Tinder wall
Belcher (wish, empty)
Empty the warrens (wish, belcher)
Land grant (taiga)
Burning wish (empty, belcher)
chrome mox
Gitaxian probe
Manamorphose
Street wraith
These often create awkward hands in multiples, though I will say chrome mox helps smooth this a bit by making use of over half this list when it itself isnt the culprit.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
If the monolith were a cantrip, we could draw into a Seething Song, which would have a good shot at a win as we could draw into a ritual
If it were a Taiga or Land Grant, that is a win barring any Forces.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyUh, you have the win there. Esg, tinder wall, Petal and monolith = 4. LED seels the deal.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
Yup...
I wasnt thinking...
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyModern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
If this is the case, I see the value in adding more 3 for 2 spells, sorta. Many builds of Belcher don't even play all 8 of the 3 for 2 rituals.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
edit: I think the 2/2 split is ideal. I prefer manamorphose over probe, but thats because I seem to get tinder wall or 2 with no green sources or just 1, respectively, more often than anybody else it seems.
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I ran 20 games with each with the assumption that a Belcher activation or a Warrens of x8 or more would be "enough" to win. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it at least gave me some basic framework to work with.
Standard Belcher List:
1x Taiga
Business:
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
Mana:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Land Grant
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Manamorphose
4x Gitaxian Probe
Mono/Mana Belcher List:
1x Taiga
Business:
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
Mana:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Tinder Wall
4x Chrome Mox
4x Land Grant
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Grim Monolith
4x Pyretic Ritual
Essentially I just traded out the 8x filter cards for 4x Pyretic Ritual and 4x Grim Monolith.
The results?
Pretty similar. Both had an average of about 1 mulligan every other game, both went off/"won" on average around T2, and both had about a 3:2 ratio of Warrens wins to Belcher wins.
The main interesting piece was that the lack of filter cards (which are presumed to build storm count too) only increased the Warrens count by an average of 1x Goblin. Not a huge difference. But one probably worth some further testing (20 games each is not a huge sample size). Given that the majority of our wins will come from Warrens in these builds (either directly or through Wish) it's worth considering how much having 1-2x less/more Goblins might affect our win %.
But my takeaway is probably that a Monolith build (or Mana Belcher as I'd term it, since it's all mana production) is completely viable, just maybe not necessarily better or more consistent. Would be curious to see other people's takes.
For those interested in more detail on hand-composition, or whether my mulligan choices were wise you can check out my notes here. I neglected to include cards drawn.
Mana/Mono
Game 1:
(Wish x2, Belcher, Desperate, Taiga, Pyretic, Grant) mull
(Warrens, Mox, Taiga, Pyretic, Guide, Grant)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x8
Game 2:
(Wall, Simian, Pyretic, Grant, Song, Desperate, LED) mull
(Wall, Pyretic, Simian x2, Mox, Song) mull
(Wall, Mox, Petal, Rite, Warrens)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x10
Game 3:
(Wish x2, Pyretic, Simian, Grant, Petal, Mox)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x10
Game 4:
(Petal, Taiga, Pyretic x2, Grant, Wish, Song)
T1: Warrens x14
Game 5:
(Taiga, Rite x2, Desperate, Monolith x2) mull
(Elvish, Pyretic, LED, Petal, Grant x2) mull
(Simian, Empty, Seething, LED, Petal)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Warrens x8
Game 6:
(Grant, Desperate, Simian, Song, Elvish x2, Wall) mull
(Belcher, LED, Mox, Petal x3)
T1: Wait
T2: Belch
Game 7:
(Pyretic, Wall, Simian, Petal, Monolith, Desperate, Wish)
T1: Warrens x14
Game 8:
(Elvish, LED, Simian, Monolith, Desperate, Mox, Wish)
T1: Warrens x12
Game 9:
(Elvish, Rite x2, Taiga, Mox, Wish, Song)
T1: Warrens x12
Game 10:
(Grant, Song, Desperate, Belcher, Wish, Pyretic, Petal)
T1: Wait
T2: Belch
Game 11:
(Wall, Empty, LED x3, Pyretic, Mox) mull
(Pyretic, Elvish, Wall, Wish, Grant, Mox)
T1: Wait
T2: Play
T3: Belch
Game 12:
(Mox x2, Monolith, Song, Warrens, Elvish, Wall)
T1: Warrens x10
Game 13:
(Rite, Monolith, Taiga, Belcher x2, Mox, Song)
T1: Play
T2: Belch
Game 14:
(Desperate, Elvish, Empty, Grant, Monolith, Petal, Mox)
T1: Warrens x12
Game 15:
(Mox, Grant, Song, Monolith x3, Elvish) mull
(Guide, Petal, Mox, Monolith, Song, Desperate) mull
(Song, Simian, Belcher, Grant, Warrens)
T1: Wait
T2: Play
T3: Wait
T4: Belch
Game 16:
(LED, Simian, Wish, Petal x2, Rite, Grant)
T1: Warrens x14
Game 17:
(Song, Desperate, Petal, Wish, Pyretic, LED, Warrens)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Warrens x16
Game 18:
(Monolith x2, Petal, Grant, Wish, Song, Belcher)
T1: Play
T2: Belch
Game 19:
(Simian x2, Wall, Elvish x2, Wish x2) mull
(Simian, Monolith, Elvish, LED, Wall, Desperate) mull
(Simian, Wall, Pyretic, Belcher, Desperate)
T1: Wait
T2: Play
T3: Wait
T4: Wait
T5: Belch
Game 20:
(Grant, Wish, Pyretic x2, Elvish, Wall, Monolith)
T1: Warrens x14
Mulligans: .55/game
Win: Turn 2
Wins w/Monolith: 7
Empty 13/Belcher 7
Avg. Empty: 11.85
Game 1:
(Grant, Probe, Rite, Wish, Wall, Song, Petal)
T1: Warrens x16
Game 2:
(Belcher x2, Guide, Mox, Wall, Petal, Grant)
T1: Play
T2: Wait
T3: Belch
Game 3:
(Rite, Petal, LED x2, Wall, Mox, Empty)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x14
Game 4:
(Belcher, Rite x2, Mox, Desperate, Wish x2)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x12
Game 5:
(LED, Elvish, Rite x2, Taiga, Grant, Mox) mull
(Mox x2, Rite, Wish x2, Song)
T1: Wait
T2: Play
T3: Wait
T4: Belch
Game 6:
(Elvish, Rite, Desperate, Belcher x3, LED) mull
(Song, Elvish, Simian, Manamorphose x2, Desperate) mull
(Empty, Song, Belcher, LED, Wish)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Wait
T4: Wait
T5: Belch
Game 7:
(LED x2, Petal x2, Taiga, Empty, Rite)
T1: Warrens x12
Game 8:
(Belcher, Grant x2, Manamorphose, Desperate, Probe x2)
T1: Play
T2: Warrens x10
Game 9:
(Mox, Wish x2, Empty, Song, Elvish, Belcher) mull
(Belcher x2, Empty, Desperate, LED, Mox)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Belch
Game 10:
(Empty, Song, Rite, Wish, Probe, Manamorphose, Simian)
T1: Warrens x14
Game 11:
(Song x2, Wish, Desperate x2, Elvish, Probe) mull
(Wish x2, LED, Probe, Manamorphose, Desperate)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Warrens x16
Game 12:
(Warrens, Simian, Elvish, Manamorphose, LED, Mox, Grant)
T1: Warrens x8
Game 13:
(Manamorphose, Mox, Taiga, Belcher, Desperate, Elvish, Wall)
T1: Play
T2: Belch
Game 14:
(Elvish, Grant, Simian, Wish, Warrens, Wall, Probe)
T1: Warrens x10
Game 15:
(Grant x2, Wish, Manamorphose, Rite, Desperate, Petal)
T1: Wait
T2: Warrens x18
Game 16:
(Petal x2, Warrens, Wish x2, Wall, Desperate)
T1: Warrens x8
Game 17:
(Belcher x2, Simian, Desperate, Grant, Mox, Petal)
T1: Play
T2: Belch
Game 18:
(Wish, Belcher x2, Wall, Mox, Manamorphose, Grant)
T1: Play
T2: Belch
Game 19:
(Grant x2, Manamorphose, Elvish, Probe, Song, Rite) mull
(Mox, Belcher, Song x2, Ritual, Probe)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Wait
T4: Belch
Game 20:
(Simian, LED, Song, Grant, Manamorphose, Petal, Guide) mull
(Wall x2, Grant x2, LED, Song) mull)
(Manamorphose, Wish, Simian, LED, Petal)
T1: Wait
T2: Wait
T3: Warrens x12
Mulligans: .4/game
Win: Turn 2.15
Wins: 12 Warrens/8 Belcher
Avg. Empty: 12.5x
I did notice a few turns where grim monolith made turn 2 belcher possible where cantripping had me wiff turn 1. Thanks for the info!
Modern: WUBRG Infect
Legacy: WUBRG Belcher
5 Color control, aggro and combo. Taste the Rainbow!
I think the classic Belcher list sacrifices too much power by being too easy to play. Empty the Warrens is old news; people are prepared with Flusterstorm, they counter the ritual that would bring you to 3R, or they have board material if they know they are weak to it.
However.. if you switch to black rituals, you can still play Belcher in a much stronger version.. known as SAINT (by Emidln). Black rituals are FAR more explosive than red rituals; Dark Ritual nets you BB, Culling the Weak nets you BBB, and Cabal Ritual nets you B or BBB when you have threshold. Granted, red rituals are on color for Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish.. but Burning Wish is a weak card anyway because playing it tends to render your sideboard completely irrelevant. In fact, one might say that Belcher has the most irrelevant sideboard of any existing legacy deck. The black rituals, however, open up the possibility of relevant and even powerful sideboard plan. Further, it opens up the possibility of hitting double black for one of the most feared business spells in Legacy magic; Ad Nauseam.
Further, the use of sacrifical creatures for Culling the Weak opens up the possibility of Cabal Therapy, and perhaps even Gitaxian Probe. Probe, Therapy, Probe + Therapy, Therapy + Flashback, or Probe + Therapy + Flashback are all powerful pre-combo plays that can pave the way for successful combo turn through permission or even avoiding permanent hate so that you have more time to set up before your combo turn. Probe by itself can give you vital information about whether or not the coast is clear. Therapy by itself is just as deadly; either you've hit their Force of Will, or you see that they don't have one.. and with the explosiveness of the black rituals, you could safely go for IT/LED into a business spell, or simply cast one naturally from your hand.
Further, tallmen can serve further utility as blockers so that you have more life to use with Ad Nauseam.
SAINT by Emidln (list pulled from skeeter's report on the Stormboards)
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ornithopter
2 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Mox Opal
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Pact of Negation
SB: 4 Phyrexian Obliterator
SB: 2 Slaughter Pact
I've found this list to be rather underdeveloped, though its still quite powerful. I think it deserves way more attention given the relatively unchanging Classic Belcher list. The maindeck Bayou vs. Classic Belcher's singleton Taiga means you have a higher chance of Fizzling with Belcher, but the avg. Belch is still going to be lethal quite often. Further, the density of tallmen in the list means that mulligans are naturally going to be worse than in a deck like Belcher. Yet.. if you look at the business spells in this list, the avg. cost of the business spells is higher but compensated by the fact that the rituals produce, on average, more mana than Classic Belcher's red rituals.
Then again, the business spells are also far more dangerous. Belcher, Ad Nauseam, and Diabolic Intent require only resources rather than storm count; thus, perpetual resources such as Bayou, Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal become more valuable because a single ritual is sometimes all you will need to combo successfully. If you encounter permission while playing Classic Belcher.. you're going all in and usually a well played Spell Pierce, Daze, or Force can mean you won't be going off again before a Delver connects for lethal or they opponent has a new grip full of countermagic. Against, discard based disruption.. you have a slightly larger business density than Classic Belcher (12 vs. 11) and the need of 0 initial storm as well as more explosive rituals and more perpetual resources means playing against discard is automatically easier.
However, the deck is slightly harder to play.. mostly because it mulligans less effectively than Belcher.. Then again, the business spells themselves are just as easy to play with as those in Classic Belcher.
The sideboard is largely underdeveloped. I believe cards like Carpet of Flowers and Lotus Bloom deserve a second look to potentially grind out a successful combo turn with Cabal Therapy/Duress and an explosive turn 4 with either Lotus Bloom and/or Carpet of Flowers.
The other thing is this deck doesn't have as much natural Daze protection as Classic Belcher. Playing x8 spirit guides means you'll randomly win games against opponents who feel adequately protected under a fast clock and a single Daze. This deck has Mox Opal.. which is just as powerful as it is vulnerable to disruption like Daze. If they can keep you off your third artifact successfully with permission or even spot removal on something like Walk/Thopter, then a Mox that is necessary to your combo turn might set you back a turn or two. Further, the tallmen make the other Mox, Chrome Mox, less effective because you have fewer colored sources to imprint given the greater artifact density.
I don't think anyone has any definitive percentages on this list currently.. but it most certainly several turns faster than Belcher.. which I've found to lately only beat pure Aggro decks because other combo decks can race it by winning before turn 4. I'd say in terms of speed.. it falls right behind SI in terms of speed.. which makes sense given they both play a similar acceleration suite.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix