I dismissed Trickster Mage on sight for being a summoning-sick creature. That might or might not be fair.
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds + Bloodghast occurred to me in the past, but as I hate 'ghast in Dredge, I never really tested it. I'm curious why he stopped at only one Oboro. Color concerns spring to mind.
Is anyone playing Choke right now? Can they afford to bring it in against us?
What in the devil is Aura Thief doing in his side-board? Hard-cast it against Leyline, I guess?
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1) 4 Dread Return targets (1 FKZ, 2 Sphinx, 1 Iona)
2) 9 Dredgers (4 Troll, 4 Imp, 1 Thug, I have trouble counting Salvage tbh)
3) 6 Discard outs (4 Putrid Imp, 2 Trickster Mage) which only require UB mana base
4) 3 Brainstorm over 2 Breakthrough
5) Only 3 Dread Returns despite the large number of targets
6) The sideboard is all sorts of awkward; Null Rod could easily be Pithing Needle if you think you can call well, 4 DR Targets, 2 of which function almost identically (Chosen and Archon), Aura Thief, which doesn't really change anything (you could blow out Enchantress at best), Emrakul who really only resets your Narcomoebas (I'm guessing this was to combat High Tide). Over all, there are 10 cards to combat hate, only 4 of which work against Leyline but the rest combat everything else well.
1. Too many targets with only 3 DR spell, I'd replace Sphinx with Sun Titan and drop the other Sphinx from the list for a dredger
2. Yeah Dakmor Salvage shouldn't be counted as a dredger or a land IMO.
3. It's actually 10 if you count Careful Study as an outlet
4. Breakthrough should always be a 4-off IMO
5. See #1
6. The sideboard is a mess. I really wonder how he fought thru hate (if any). The only good thing I liked was the Aura Thief (I actually missed that Aura Thief in the board when I first saw the list. Nice tech to improve our MU against Enchantress)
RE: Trickster Mage
The summoning sickness from Trickster Mage does make it prone to removal but given the UB mana base it's better than the other 1CMC blue discard outlets available IMO. PImp and Tribe will always be the top discard outlets for dredge, but Trickster Mage has some potential in the deck
RE: mana base
I think the reasoning behind Oboro being 1-off is because it's legendary. I personally ran 2 copies of Oboro before when I tried it waaaay back and top 8ed with it but I dropped it for gold lands because I run the 5 color build. It may be better of in UB builds. Darkslick Shores would be a good substitute (as Zirath mentioned) for U.Sea since he doesn't run fetches. But I'm still not sold on UB lists mainly because of the available sideboard cards to fight hate.
I actually don't think Breakthrough is an auto 4. It actually has some flaws: you can't set up with it, it is a prime target for counters and you have to cast it to explode. I think Brainstorm is a smart change since it actually allows you to put two Narcomoebas back if you happen to have them in your hand or set up Dredgers/Dredge chains with a discard outlet. I was thinking about Brainstorm for a long time and it seems like it as potential.
Oboro is Paradise number 5. It is fine in his list since he has 8 black cards.
Aura Thief is interesting, but it unless you consistently lose to Enchantress, its not really that helpful.
Trickster Mage is definitely rogue tech. It helps in match ups that are removal light.
I think something important this establishes is that there are actually enough blue cards that fight hate atm that 5 color is convenient but not necessary. Imagine a sideboard like:
Has Legacy considered running Sun Titan? I know that the Vintage Dredge plays it (they grab Bazaar and go crazy obv but couldn't we do the same with Colosium?) That also gives reason to play Bloodghast.
Has Legacy considered running Sun Titan? I know that the Vintage Dredge plays it (they grab Bazaar and go crazy obv but couldn't we do the same with Colosium?) That also gives reason to play Bloodghast.
It's just a thought.
Builds that run Bloodghast certainly consider it. It isn't good without Ghast. Just getting Coliseum isn't enough.
I think Aura Thief is just too narrow unless the meta is nothing but Enchantress.
If you need a non-targeted sweeper for everything, I think Child of Alara is the clear choice. It works against everything but land, and you can always Realm Razer for the 1-2 punch to lock out any deck from any board position (except Humility). What does Humility do against Aura Thief?
Edit: Against Enchantress in particular, Realm Razer is probably just as effective as Aura Thief.
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I'm not so sure on 2CMC sideboard cards. Although we can certainly cast those cards in some cases, I'm not sure if we can rely on casting them on a consistent basis. I've tried Stifle in the past but I liked Ancient Grudge more since I didn't need to draw into it to fight hate in the form of artifacts. As for Aura Thief, it's a dedicated answer against Enchantress, if you can afford to have a spare slot. Child of Alara also works to blow up their board but is also affected by Humility and if they have Karmic Justice in play they'd still have the advantage if we can sweep the board (I think. Still need to research on how that interaction works). Realm Razer is a more flexible option since it can be boarded against other archetypes but against Enchantress, I'd prefer Aura Thief or Child of Alara.
Aura Thief is stopped by Humility. It is only good against Enchantress honestly and I think that it isn't worth it without metagame scouting and you happen to see many Enchantress players.
Child results in dead permanents for us; granted you can protect your Zombies with triggers (not in play so there is no target for Justice), but that's about it. Plus I'd imagine they board out Karmic Justice against us tbh, since it isn't effective anyways. They don't want to give away free Zombies in exchange for their Grass.
Do you rely on Firestorm to win match ups for you? One of the benefits of Turbulent Dreams is that it bounces everything, which actually makes it board worthy in the Enchantress match up. It also deals with Merfolk and Tempo the same as Firestorm (almost) but it buy you a turn if they go aggro and it bounces Vial as well. I'm not saying its better than Firestorm, but in the case we go down to UB, I think it definitely worth testing.
As far as two mana answers go in general, I have hardcast both Ray and Grudge. I have seen with Echoing Truth since it actually messes up a lot of players, like Tempo players drawing 3 Goyfs in the first 4 turns and relying on them to win.
The main issue with 5 color is that we are still vulnerable to Wasteland. If we can play some basics or lands that dodge hate (Oboro is the good example here), that is a huge advantage since Tempo decks will suffer for their dead cards. I'm aware that it gives us the most versatile answers, but there are still a lot of answers in Blue and Black alone. Sickening Dreams is another good example; its more risky, but it actually does the same thing as Firestorm (also sweeps better against Goblins).
Hey, so this is my list that you are talking about and I thought I would chime in on some of the more "interesting" card choices. First off, let me just say that dredge is one of the most fun and explosive decks you can ever play. I've T8ed an extended PTQ and got 9th in this SCG Open with it and have never had the same sort of general success with any other deck. I strongly recommend it to anyone just getting into Legacy, as it's also super cheap to build (as far as Legacy decks go).
As for card choices, I first want to explain that I consider dredge purely a combo deck. Sometimes you have to grind it out (ie. See the coverage article on SCG round 8 match), but most of the time I want to win on the same turn that I hit a dread return. Thus, I'm playing a bloodghast version of the deck, as they allow you to go off a turn faster than ichorids (since you can get them into play the same turn they hit the bin). the trix Mage makes sense, as you can tap down a blocker, or a land they need, or their tormod crypt, all the while discarding a dredger. Don't get me wrong, if tribes were blue I'd definitely play them instead, but I far too often ran into the problem of not having the right land in order to play white when I was running with cities and tribes vs seas and t.Mage. There is the potential problem of removal before you can use them, but most legacy decks are removal light so they don't want to waste their swords on the Mage. Also, there are games where I can lock down mana and sometimes deny a color with the Mage. If I were to change anything in the main, I would like to add a second thug for dredging and a third t.Mage. I would probably cut one draw spell and probably Iona, as she didn't win me a single game. I got her out once against enchantress which slowed the game down, but I couldn't attack against grass anyway and eventually they just draw into their karakas or words of war and win anyways.
Speaking of which, yes, aura thief is strictly for the enchantress matchup and completely owns them if they aren't expecting it. You just build your army of zombies and go all in on the turn you cycle through him for the win. Emrakul was for the high tide matchup but honestly was a last minute inclusion and not really tested. I do recommend both the chosen and archon, as one is for goblins and ANT and the other is for the mirror and show and tell decks. Pithing needle vs null rod is a toss up, but I went for rods so that a. You don't have to guess which one they have (and most run a mix) and b. It's amazing/auto win against affinity (which won the tourney) and robots.
Finally, the reason I run 2 sphinx main goes back to my strategy behind the deck. They are essential to comboing out all on one turn, and I will frequently recur them both in one turn to dump my entire library into the yard and win with every card in the deck.
If anyone has any other specific questions or issues with the deck, just post. Otherwise you'll just have to trust me that the list is solid. I've won multiple local legacy events with it and did pretty well last weekend, missing T8 by tiebreakers only (4th through 9th all had 19 points). Like I said previously, my only changes would be to add another thug, as this list felt a little light on dredgers, and add the third trix Mage, moving Iona to sb.
@Drude1: Congratulations on the finish! I'm curious to know your other matchups during the tournament. Did you run into a lot of hate? How was the performance of your list in terms of mulligan rate?
Hey, so this is my list that you are talking about and I thought I would chime in on some of the more "interesting" card choices. First off, let me just say that dredge is one of the most fun and explosive decks you can ever play. I've T8ed an extended PTQ and got 9th in this SCG Open with it and have never had the same sort of general success with any other deck. I strongly recommend it to anyone just getting into Legacy, as it's also super cheap to build (as far as Legacy decks go).
As for card choices, I first want to explain that I consider dredge purely a combo deck. Sometimes you have to grind it out (ie. See the coverage article on SCG round 8 match), but most of the time I want to win on the same turn that I hit a dread return. Thus, I'm playing a bloodghast version of the deck, as they allow you to go off a turn faster than ichorids (since you can get them into play the same turn they hit the bin). the trix Mage makes sense, as you can tap down a blocker, or a land they need, or their tormod crypt, all the while discarding a dredger. Don't get me wrong, if tribes were blue I'd definitely play them instead, but I far too often ran into the problem of not having the right land in order to play white when I was running with cities and tribes vs seas and t.Mage. There is the potential problem of removal before you can use them, but most legacy decks are removal light so they don't want to waste their swords on the Mage. Also, there are games where I can lock down mana and sometimes deny a color with the Mage. If I were to change anything in the main, I would like to add a second thug for dredging and a third t.Mage. I would probably cut one draw spell and probably Iona, as she didn't win me a single game. I got her out once against enchantress which slowed the game down, but I couldn't attack against grass anyway and eventually they just draw into their karakas or words of war and win anyways.
Speaking of which, yes, aura thief is strictly for the enchantress matchup and completely owns them if they aren't expecting it. You just build your army of zombies and go all in on the turn you cycle through him for the win. Emrakul was for the high tide matchup but honestly was a last minute inclusion and not really tested. I do recommend both the chosen and archon, as one is for goblins and ANT and the other is for the mirror and show and tell decks. Pithing needle vs null rod is a toss up, but I went for rods so that a. You don't have to guess which one they have (and most run a mix) and b. It's amazing/auto win against affinity (which won the tourney) and robots.
Finally, the reason I run 2 sphinx main goes back to my strategy behind the deck. They ar essential to comboing out all on one turn, and I will frquently recur them both in one turn to dump my entire library into the yard and win with every card in the deck.
Thanks a lot for your input. As you can see, we've been discussing your list a lot.
So you are going for consistency over speed? I personally think you should run another Dread Return and another Thug in that case so you can more smoothly DR in a single turn.
I think that Trickster Mage has a big downside which is that once people realize it is an out for you, they will use removal on it. Zoo, Goblins and Tempo Thresh all pack good amount of removal, so it seems like its very vulnerable in those match ups. However, against Merfolk, Bant, Show and Tell, this seems like an excellent tool game 1 and 2.
For reference, High Tide can play around Emrakul, so if its a good pilot, it won't matter. They will follow the Emrakul trigger with either Ravenous Trap or a second Brain Freeze and then Blue Sun's or Stroke to finish you off.
What about Force of Will? You have an excess of blue cards so this might be a good inclusion out of the board to mess up other players. I haven't counted well so this is a blind suggestion. Sorry if your blue count is too low and I was being stupid.
Is Archon really worth it? I feel like in the mirror, they will board in their Chains and just remove him and you will get hit anyways.
Your sideboard seems like it was largely speculation. Did you match up against any Tempo decks? That's a match up where Firestorm is relevant, a card you lost access to. I've been pushing Turbulent Dreams for a while (no one is with me atm). Do you have any opinions on that?
As far as two mana answers go in general, I have hardcast both Ray and Grudge. I have seen with Echoing Truth since it actually messes up a lot of players, like Tempo players drawing 3 Goyfs in the first 4 turns and relying on them to win.
I think we have all had experience with hardcasting 2CMC spells with this deck (narcs, thugs, grudge, ray). But my definition of consistency would be the ability of hardcasting 2CMC spells in every game. I don't want to change my mulligan strategy by looking for an additional land and an answer apart from the other components necessary to make the engine work. I'd rather get the engine going than look for a second land and an answer by drawing. But if that can be achieved (consistently casting 2CMC cards), it opens up a lot of cards for the mainboard.
I think we have all had experience with hardcasting 2CMC spells with this deck (narcs, thugs, grudge, ray). But my definition of consistency would be the ability of hardcasting 2CMC spells in every game. I don't want to change my mulligan strategy by looking for an additional land and an answer apart from the other components necessary to make the engine work. I'd rather get the engine going than look for a second land and an answer by drawing. But if that can be achieved (consistently casting 2CMC cards), it opens up a lot of cards for the mainboard.
In game 2, you slow down to fight hate. It really is not uncommon to get two lands especially to play around Daze.
Though I agree that consistently getting 2 mana opens up Tolarian Winds.
@Drude1: Congratulations on the finish! I'm curious to know your other matchups during the tournament. Did you run into a lot of hate? How was the performance of your list in terms of mulligan rate?
Matchups were:
Round 1: mirror
game 1 he beat me on turn 2.
game 2 I dropped blazing archon on him and he scooped
game 3 I just went off faster
Round 2: enchantress
game1 he had elephant grass and I had iona on white. He drew down to his second to last card for karakas, bounced Iona and burned me out with words of war off replenish.
game 2 I built an early army and stole all his board with aura thief (including 2 elephant grass) and swung in for win.
game 3 timed out
Also played rock decks twice, which is why I chose to play this deck at the event...total blowout. I played a darkdepths combo and ANT deck and my last round was against Canadian thresh.
My one loss was to Merfolk in which I had iona out on blue but he already had enough guys out to island walk me to death, which would actually prompt me to switch out the underground seas for Darkslick Shores so they can't get island walk.
As for hate, I had 2 oppenents running black leylines and one opponent running extirpate. My last opponent had brought in tormod's crypt and e.explosives to wipe my zombies. I didn't have the answers in my hand for those but was able to slow play around them.
After the match, I considered adding some llawan to the sb for the merfolk matchup, but I don't know if that's legit, as you probably won't ever get to 4 mana to cast them, and they have enough countermagic for dread return. I would consider sickening dreams, which I think is at the very least more easily castable than firestorm and had the advantage of not missing a creature if you don't have enough cards to discard.
For the guy asking if ancestor's chosen and blazing archon were redundant, I would say no. Like I mentioned before, chosen comes in for ANT so that you can gain more life than they can burn you for, and for goblins for the same reason. Archon comes in against the Show and Tell decks (they usually have no answer) and the mirror. You mentioned the mirror bringing in chains but by the time you're playing the Archon you've already therapied them at least twice so they would have to draw into the chain pretty quick. Remember, at least 3/4 of my library is in my graveyard by the time I Dread Return, so if they're plan is to deal with the creature I dread return it's usually too late because I've already stripped their hand.
I think force of will is bad because you typically don't have much of a hand, especially if you are running breakthroughs. And to whomever said breakthrough was an auto 4 of I totally disagree. Breakthrough is awesome on turn 2 if you already have and imp out and a dredger in hand, but you can't use it to find your sideboard cards and there are so many times that it's just not the right card. This is why I run 3 brainstorms, which have been awesome, as they can put narcomoebas back on your library for dredging and can much better dig for sideboard cards for you.
The one other interesting piece of tech I saw was my first round mirror opponent was playing leyline of sanctity in his sb to stop hate, and it actually shuts down tormod's crypt, rav. trap, nihil spellbomb, and wheel of sun and moon. Also serves as good sb against ANT, so I'm going to consider it. Just doesn't work against black leylines, relics, or faerie macabre.
Finally, I would say that consistency = speed in this deck. The only thing from allowing you to go off, especially in game 1, is not having all of the necessary pieces in the graveyard. This is why I play 2 sphinx and play all 4 coliseums, which is an absolute necessity. I also need the 2 dakmor salvage for my bloodghasts if I don't have a bounce land. This is why I don't don't play tribes in my deck, as I would only have 7 out of 14 lands that could cast them, and that's pretty bad.
wow I get wordy...
The one other interesting piece of tech I saw was my first round mirror opponent was playing leyline of sanctity in his sb to stop hate, and it actually shuts down tormod's crypt, rav. trap, nihil spellbomb, and wheel of sun and moon. Also serves as good sb against ANT, so I'm going to consider it. Just doesn't work against black leylines, relics, or faerie macabre.
Count me in as another person who thinks that Leyline of Sanctity might be good even in Legacy Dredge (it's already established in Vintage). The consensus on The Source seems to be that it's bad, but you know how that group can be. Until somebody rides Dredge to Top8 of a large tournament (or several) on the back of Leyline, it's a bad card. And the second that happens, the card is God's gift to the deck. The cumulative experience of that crowd is extremely valuable, but sometimes you have to take what is said with a grain of salt. For what it's worth, I've been playing Leyline in my MTGO Dredge deck with decent results. Against ANT it will buy you the time you need to strip their hand with Cabal Therapy, and against decks that are only running the targeted hate that you mentioned (i.e. not Relic, Leyline, or Fae), it's an easy win Game 2/3. It can also give you random wins against RDW/Burn, should anybody be playing it.
Another card that I have tested with good results (from the sideboard) is Chalice of the Void (yes, another port from Vintage). It's just one more tool against ANT and TES, which are typically the only decks faster than you and probably the worst matchup for the deck. It can also slow down Ravager Affinity, which is nice. It can be hard to outrace a T1 ravager (enabled by Mox Opal) into T2 Cranial Plating when they can immediately remove your Bridges on demand by saccing Ornithopters and Memnites.
I see your point about Blazing Archon but I still think that it warrants scouting before making that decision. I stand by my point on Emrakul and feel that you cannot rely on it to win you the Tide match up.
I totally agree about Brainstorm; I'm going to test it in my list over some Breakthroughs.
The one other interesting piece of tech I saw was my first round mirror opponent was playing leyline of sanctity in his sb to stop hate, and it actually shuts down tormod's crypt, rav. trap, nihil spellbomb, and wheel of sun and moon. Also serves as good sb against ANT, so I'm going to consider it. Just doesn't work against black leylines, relics, or faerie macabre.
Finally, I would say that consistency = speed in this deck. The only thing from allowing you to go off, especially in game 1, is not having all of the necessary pieces in the graveyard. This is why I play 2 sphinx and play all 4 coliseums, which is an absolute necessity. I also need the 2 dakmor salvage for my bloodghasts if I don't have a bounce land. This is why I don't don't play tribes in my deck, as I would only have 7 out of 14 lands that could cast them, and that's pretty bad.
wow I get wordy...
We were talking about Leyline previously since Vintage Dredge runs it. Its good, but if you don't draw it in the opening 7, its more dead than Chain or Truth.
I don't think speed and consistency are equivalent. You are are trying to get to the Dread Return a guy and go off plan more quickly, but you sacrifice multiple enabling effects (9 Dredgers and 12 discard outs). You did talk about wanting that 2nd Thug, which I agree with personally.
I can see your point about Iona not being strong enough in your list, but I believe for the Ichorid based list, which has an aggro plan as a result of Ichorid's haste and built in zombie generation, Iona is still a strong MD choice since you are not trying to rush to the end.
River Kelpie and Sun Titan are also strong enablers for Bloodghast strategies; you can probably take advantage of both of those. River Kelpie definitely plays nice with Flashback and with a good dredge, you can get many draws from the Kelpie. Also, isn't Cephalid Sage slightly better for you than Sphinx since it lets you keep a card (like a Salvage) to get back Ghasts?
I think I'm noticing a problem here with the way the meta is developing: people are packing answers maindeck to creature like Iona and Emrakul as a result of SnT. This hurts us a lot: Karakas, Gilded Drake, Stingscourger, some people I know started playing Curfew as an answer. All these can potentially ruin games for us if we rely on Iona. In a meta full of Survival, it was okay. People had to focus on nullifying Survival. But cards like Natural Order, Show and Tell and Sneak Attack are making people make decisions that directly effect Iona. The other problem is that many decks try to answer Bridge from Below, which is why we can't rely on FKZ alone in certain match ups.
EDIT: After reading this and thinking about it, I think I'm going to make a few changes to the primer to represent all we have been discussing.
EDIT 2: A second thought I had for your list drude1: What about Fatestitcher? He gets played in Vintage Dredge as well (notice we are stealing a lot of tech) and he is essentially a free spell with your mana base. He also enables River Kelpie, which can be explosive. Just food for thought at this point.
EDIT 3: You know, since we seem to be thinking about how Vintage Ichorid handles hate, why don't I put a list up:
The main point of Fatestitcher in Vintage Dredge is to untap Bazaar and keep the madness going. I'm not sure that we have an untap target in Legacy Dredge that is useful enough to make Fatestitcher worth the slots -- but I keep thinking about it.
Also, those Vintage Dredge lists should have Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the 75. It's the main way to fight Tendrils and Oath decks.
The main point of Fatestitcher in Vintage Dredge is to untap Bazaar and keep the madness going. I'm not sure that we have an untap target in Legacy Dredge that is useful enough to make Fatestitcher worth the slots -- but I keep thinking about it.
Also, those Vintage Dredge lists should have Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the 75. It's the main way to fight Tendrils and Oath decks.
Sorry about that, just grabbed two that recently t8'd.
We can untap lands with Fatestitcher and then use them to cast spells. I think it has potential to be really good if you plan on going off on that turn since it is Bloodghast/Narcomoeba 8-12. Fatestitcher also TAPS BLOCKERS and CRYPT/RELIC/SPELLBOMB. That I think is relevant if we say Trickster Mage is good since it does the same thing.
We can untap lands with Fatestitcher and then use them to cast spells. I think it has potential to be really good if you plan on going off on that turn since it is Bloodghast/Narcomoeba 8-12. Fatestitcher also TAPS BLOCKERS and CRYPT/RELIC/SPELLBOMB. That I think is relevant if we say Trickster Mage is good since it does the same thing.
I can definitely see the utility behind tapping artifact hate... tapping a blocker is potentially useful as well. I'm still on the fence re: both Fatestitcher and Trickster Mage, though. Going straight UB does have some huge advantages, so that avenue is definitely worth exploring. And we have proof that it can work thanks to drude1.
I can definitely see the utility behind tapping artifact hate... tapping a blocker is potentially useful as well. I'm still on the fence re: both Fatestitcher and Trickster Mage, though. Going straight UB does have some huge advantages, so that avenue is definitely worth exploring. And we have proof that it can work thanks to drude1.
P.S. Isn't my new signature cute?
Well its been more or shown that the UB route is possible, so I think that we need to outline as many options as we can at this point and work around in the space we establish.
On the note of your signature, as I was making edits, I made a simple banner for the primer. Check it out on the OP. It supposed to show a typical Dredge player's game.
As long as we're exploring UB, I think that Force of Will deserves a look -- especially if we're reducing the number of Breakthrough in the deck in favor of Brainstorm. Or perhaps even Foil, since it's a better FoW for our deck as long as you're holding an island. Then again, we probably wouldn't be running enough islands to support it...
I would however not be too overhasty with all this 'new' stuff. An unusual list had one good result now, which is perfectly fine. But to me it seems as Brainstorms, UB mana bases and cards like Fatstitcher are hyped a bit too much now. They give room for innovation and reasons for testing, but let's just take it slow. Other people have tested all that stuff before, but usual lists had significantly more top8s. The recent result shows that other things can work, but they still could by no means prove themselves better than the usual stuff.
Ideas are just ideas. UB Merfolk was considered the deck to beat but people still place with pure blue builds. This deck has been pretty standard since the printing of Iona, so I don't see anything wrong with thinking.
Hey all, found this Dredge article by Max McCall from last year. Maybe some of you have read it, but as I just recently started playing the deck it was a huge help. He explains why you don't need to play maindeck Dread Return targets, how to beat various hate spells, and even how to sideboard. The metagame was quite different a year ago, but the article still contains a huge amount of Dredge-playing information.
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds + Bloodghast occurred to me in the past, but as I hate 'ghast in Dredge, I never really tested it. I'm curious why he stopped at only one Oboro. Color concerns spring to mind.
Is anyone playing Choke right now? Can they afford to bring it in against us?
What in the devil is Aura Thief doing in his side-board? Hard-cast it against Leyline, I guess?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I assume its there against enchantress, DR and sac it to therapy and steal their board.
T2
:symw::symb::symu:Spirits:symw::symb::symu:
Modern
:symu::symr::symw:Caw:symu::symr::symw:
1. Too many targets with only 3 DR spell, I'd replace Sphinx with Sun Titan and drop the other Sphinx from the list for a dredger
2. Yeah Dakmor Salvage shouldn't be counted as a dredger or a land IMO.
3. It's actually 10 if you count Careful Study as an outlet
4. Breakthrough should always be a 4-off IMO
5. See #1
6. The sideboard is a mess. I really wonder how he fought thru hate (if any). The only good thing I liked was the Aura Thief (I actually missed that Aura Thief in the board when I first saw the list. Nice tech to improve our MU against Enchantress)
RE: Trickster Mage
The summoning sickness from Trickster Mage does make it prone to removal but given the UB mana base it's better than the other 1CMC blue discard outlets available IMO. PImp and Tribe will always be the top discard outlets for dredge, but Trickster Mage has some potential in the deck
RE: mana base
I think the reasoning behind Oboro being 1-off is because it's legendary. I personally ran 2 copies of Oboro before when I tried it waaaay back and top 8ed with it but I dropped it for gold lands because I run the 5 color build. It may be better of in UB builds. Darkslick Shores would be a good substitute (as Zirath mentioned) for U.Sea since he doesn't run fetches. But I'm still not sold on UB lists mainly because of the available sideboard cards to fight hate.
Now I guess it's time to look for an Aura Thief!
Oboro is Paradise number 5. It is fine in his list since he has 8 black cards.
Aura Thief is interesting, but it unless you consistently lose to Enchantress, its not really that helpful.
Trickster Mage is definitely rogue tech. It helps in match ups that are removal light.
I think something important this establishes is that there are actually enough blue cards that fight hate atm that 5 color is convenient but not necessary. Imagine a sideboard like:
0 Chain of Vapor
0 Echoing Truth
0 Turbulent Dreams
0 Pithing Needle
0 Null Rod
That effectively answers everything we normally deal with in approximately the same fashion as we already see it.
It's just a thought.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Builds that run Bloodghast certainly consider it. It isn't good without Ghast. Just getting Coliseum isn't enough.
If you need a non-targeted sweeper for everything, I think Child of Alara is the clear choice. It works against everything but land, and you can always Realm Razer for the 1-2 punch to lock out any deck from any board position (except Humility). What does Humility do against Aura Thief?
Edit: Against Enchantress in particular, Realm Razer is probably just as effective as Aura Thief.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Child results in dead permanents for us; granted you can protect your Zombies with triggers (not in play so there is no target for Justice), but that's about it. Plus I'd imagine they board out Karmic Justice against us tbh, since it isn't effective anyways. They don't want to give away free Zombies in exchange for their Grass.
Do you rely on Firestorm to win match ups for you? One of the benefits of Turbulent Dreams is that it bounces everything, which actually makes it board worthy in the Enchantress match up. It also deals with Merfolk and Tempo the same as Firestorm (almost) but it buy you a turn if they go aggro and it bounces Vial as well. I'm not saying its better than Firestorm, but in the case we go down to UB, I think it definitely worth testing.
As far as two mana answers go in general, I have hardcast both Ray and Grudge. I have seen with Echoing Truth since it actually messes up a lot of players, like Tempo players drawing 3 Goyfs in the first 4 turns and relying on them to win.
The main issue with 5 color is that we are still vulnerable to Wasteland. If we can play some basics or lands that dodge hate (Oboro is the good example here), that is a huge advantage since Tempo decks will suffer for their dead cards. I'm aware that it gives us the most versatile answers, but there are still a lot of answers in Blue and Black alone. Sickening Dreams is another good example; its more risky, but it actually does the same thing as Firestorm (also sweeps better against Goblins).
As for card choices, I first want to explain that I consider dredge purely a combo deck. Sometimes you have to grind it out (ie. See the coverage article on SCG round 8 match), but most of the time I want to win on the same turn that I hit a dread return. Thus, I'm playing a bloodghast version of the deck, as they allow you to go off a turn faster than ichorids (since you can get them into play the same turn they hit the bin). the trix Mage makes sense, as you can tap down a blocker, or a land they need, or their tormod crypt, all the while discarding a dredger. Don't get me wrong, if tribes were blue I'd definitely play them instead, but I far too often ran into the problem of not having the right land in order to play white when I was running with cities and tribes vs seas and t.Mage. There is the potential problem of removal before you can use them, but most legacy decks are removal light so they don't want to waste their swords on the Mage. Also, there are games where I can lock down mana and sometimes deny a color with the Mage. If I were to change anything in the main, I would like to add a second thug for dredging and a third t.Mage. I would probably cut one draw spell and probably Iona, as she didn't win me a single game. I got her out once against enchantress which slowed the game down, but I couldn't attack against grass anyway and eventually they just draw into their karakas or words of war and win anyways.
Speaking of which, yes, aura thief is strictly for the enchantress matchup and completely owns them if they aren't expecting it. You just build your army of zombies and go all in on the turn you cycle through him for the win. Emrakul was for the high tide matchup but honestly was a last minute inclusion and not really tested. I do recommend both the chosen and archon, as one is for goblins and ANT and the other is for the mirror and show and tell decks. Pithing needle vs null rod is a toss up, but I went for rods so that a. You don't have to guess which one they have (and most run a mix) and b. It's amazing/auto win against affinity (which won the tourney) and robots.
Finally, the reason I run 2 sphinx main goes back to my strategy behind the deck. They are essential to comboing out all on one turn, and I will frequently recur them both in one turn to dump my entire library into the yard and win with every card in the deck.
If anyone has any other specific questions or issues with the deck, just post. Otherwise you'll just have to trust me that the list is solid. I've won multiple local legacy events with it and did pretty well last weekend, missing T8 by tiebreakers only (4th through 9th all had 19 points). Like I said previously, my only changes would be to add another thug, as this list felt a little light on dredgers, and add the third trix Mage, moving Iona to sb.
Thanks a lot for your input. As you can see, we've been discussing your list a lot.
So you are going for consistency over speed? I personally think you should run another Dread Return and another Thug in that case so you can more smoothly DR in a single turn.
I think that Trickster Mage has a big downside which is that once people realize it is an out for you, they will use removal on it. Zoo, Goblins and Tempo Thresh all pack good amount of removal, so it seems like its very vulnerable in those match ups. However, against Merfolk, Bant, Show and Tell, this seems like an excellent tool game 1 and 2.
For reference, High Tide can play around Emrakul, so if its a good pilot, it won't matter. They will follow the Emrakul trigger with either Ravenous Trap or a second Brain Freeze and then Blue Sun's or Stroke to finish you off.
What about Force of Will? You have an excess of blue cards so this might be a good inclusion out of the board to mess up other players. I haven't counted well so this is a blind suggestion. Sorry if your blue count is too low and I was being stupid.
Is Archon really worth it? I feel like in the mirror, they will board in their Chains and just remove him and you will get hit anyways.
Your sideboard seems like it was largely speculation. Did you match up against any Tempo decks? That's a match up where Firestorm is relevant, a card you lost access to. I've been pushing Turbulent Dreams for a while (no one is with me atm). Do you have any opinions on that?
In game 2, you slow down to fight hate. It really is not uncommon to get two lands especially to play around Daze.
Though I agree that consistently getting 2 mana opens up Tolarian Winds.
Matchups were:
Round 1: mirror
game 1 he beat me on turn 2.
game 2 I dropped blazing archon on him and he scooped
game 3 I just went off faster
Round 2: enchantress
game1 he had elephant grass and I had iona on white. He drew down to his second to last card for karakas, bounced Iona and burned me out with words of war off replenish.
game 2 I built an early army and stole all his board with aura thief (including 2 elephant grass) and swung in for win.
game 3 timed out
Also played rock decks twice, which is why I chose to play this deck at the event...total blowout. I played a darkdepths combo and ANT deck and my last round was against Canadian thresh.
My one loss was to Merfolk in which I had iona out on blue but he already had enough guys out to island walk me to death, which would actually prompt me to switch out the underground seas for Darkslick Shores so they can't get island walk.
As for hate, I had 2 oppenents running black leylines and one opponent running extirpate. My last opponent had brought in tormod's crypt and e.explosives to wipe my zombies. I didn't have the answers in my hand for those but was able to slow play around them.
After the match, I considered adding some llawan to the sb for the merfolk matchup, but I don't know if that's legit, as you probably won't ever get to 4 mana to cast them, and they have enough countermagic for dread return. I would consider sickening dreams, which I think is at the very least more easily castable than firestorm and had the advantage of not missing a creature if you don't have enough cards to discard.
For the guy asking if ancestor's chosen and blazing archon were redundant, I would say no. Like I mentioned before, chosen comes in for ANT so that you can gain more life than they can burn you for, and for goblins for the same reason. Archon comes in against the Show and Tell decks (they usually have no answer) and the mirror. You mentioned the mirror bringing in chains but by the time you're playing the Archon you've already therapied them at least twice so they would have to draw into the chain pretty quick. Remember, at least 3/4 of my library is in my graveyard by the time I Dread Return, so if they're plan is to deal with the creature I dread return it's usually too late because I've already stripped their hand.
I think force of will is bad because you typically don't have much of a hand, especially if you are running breakthroughs. And to whomever said breakthrough was an auto 4 of I totally disagree. Breakthrough is awesome on turn 2 if you already have and imp out and a dredger in hand, but you can't use it to find your sideboard cards and there are so many times that it's just not the right card. This is why I run 3 brainstorms, which have been awesome, as they can put narcomoebas back on your library for dredging and can much better dig for sideboard cards for you.
The one other interesting piece of tech I saw was my first round mirror opponent was playing leyline of sanctity in his sb to stop hate, and it actually shuts down tormod's crypt, rav. trap, nihil spellbomb, and wheel of sun and moon. Also serves as good sb against ANT, so I'm going to consider it. Just doesn't work against black leylines, relics, or faerie macabre.
Finally, I would say that consistency = speed in this deck. The only thing from allowing you to go off, especially in game 1, is not having all of the necessary pieces in the graveyard. This is why I play 2 sphinx and play all 4 coliseums, which is an absolute necessity. I also need the 2 dakmor salvage for my bloodghasts if I don't have a bounce land. This is why I don't don't play tribes in my deck, as I would only have 7 out of 14 lands that could cast them, and that's pretty bad.
wow I get wordy...
Count me in as another person who thinks that Leyline of Sanctity might be good even in Legacy Dredge (it's already established in Vintage). The consensus on The Source seems to be that it's bad, but you know how that group can be. Until somebody rides Dredge to Top8 of a large tournament (or several) on the back of Leyline, it's a bad card. And the second that happens, the card is God's gift to the deck. The cumulative experience of that crowd is extremely valuable, but sometimes you have to take what is said with a grain of salt. For what it's worth, I've been playing Leyline in my MTGO Dredge deck with decent results. Against ANT it will buy you the time you need to strip their hand with Cabal Therapy, and against decks that are only running the targeted hate that you mentioned (i.e. not Relic, Leyline, or Fae), it's an easy win Game 2/3. It can also give you random wins against RDW/Burn, should anybody be playing it.
Another card that I have tested with good results (from the sideboard) is Chalice of the Void (yes, another port from Vintage). It's just one more tool against ANT and TES, which are typically the only decks faster than you and probably the worst matchup for the deck. It can also slow down Ravager Affinity, which is nice. It can be hard to outrace a T1 ravager (enabled by Mox Opal) into T2 Cranial Plating when they can immediately remove your Bridges on demand by saccing Ornithopters and Memnites.
I totally agree about Brainstorm; I'm going to test it in my list over some Breakthroughs.
We were talking about Leyline previously since Vintage Dredge runs it. Its good, but if you don't draw it in the opening 7, its more dead than Chain or Truth.
I don't think speed and consistency are equivalent. You are are trying to get to the Dread Return a guy and go off plan more quickly, but you sacrifice multiple enabling effects (9 Dredgers and 12 discard outs). You did talk about wanting that 2nd Thug, which I agree with personally.
I can see your point about Iona not being strong enough in your list, but I believe for the Ichorid based list, which has an aggro plan as a result of Ichorid's haste and built in zombie generation, Iona is still a strong MD choice since you are not trying to rush to the end.
River Kelpie and Sun Titan are also strong enablers for Bloodghast strategies; you can probably take advantage of both of those. River Kelpie definitely plays nice with Flashback and with a good dredge, you can get many draws from the Kelpie. Also, isn't Cephalid Sage slightly better for you than Sphinx since it lets you keep a card (like a Salvage) to get back Ghasts?
I think I'm noticing a problem here with the way the meta is developing: people are packing answers maindeck to creature like Iona and Emrakul as a result of SnT. This hurts us a lot: Karakas, Gilded Drake, Stingscourger, some people I know started playing Curfew as an answer. All these can potentially ruin games for us if we rely on Iona. In a meta full of Survival, it was okay. People had to focus on nullifying Survival. But cards like Natural Order, Show and Tell and Sneak Attack are making people make decisions that directly effect Iona. The other problem is that many decks try to answer Bridge from Below, which is why we can't rely on FKZ alone in certain match ups.
EDIT: After reading this and thinking about it, I think I'm going to make a few changes to the primer to represent all we have been discussing.
EDIT 2: A second thought I had for your list drude1: What about Fatestitcher? He gets played in Vintage Dredge as well (notice we are stealing a lot of tech) and he is essentially a free spell with your mana base. He also enables River Kelpie, which can be explosive. Just food for thought at this point.
EDIT 3: You know, since we seem to be thinking about how Vintage Ichorid handles hate, why don't I put a list up:
1 Terastodon
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
3 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
3 Petrified Field
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
3 City of Brass
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Contagion
1 Ichorid
3 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
Also, those Vintage Dredge lists should have Leyline of Sanctity somewhere in the 75. It's the main way to fight Tendrils and Oath decks.
Sorry about that, just grabbed two that recently t8'd.
We can untap lands with Fatestitcher and then use them to cast spells. I think it has potential to be really good if you plan on going off on that turn since it is Bloodghast/Narcomoeba 8-12. Fatestitcher also TAPS BLOCKERS and CRYPT/RELIC/SPELLBOMB. That I think is relevant if we say Trickster Mage is good since it does the same thing.
I can definitely see the utility behind tapping artifact hate... tapping a blocker is potentially useful as well. I'm still on the fence re: both Fatestitcher and Trickster Mage, though. Going straight UB does have some huge advantages, so that avenue is definitely worth exploring. And we have proof that it can work thanks to drude1.
P.S. Isn't my new signature cute?
Well its been more or shown that the UB route is possible, so I think that we need to outline as many options as we can at this point and work around in the space we establish.
On the note of your signature, as I was making edits, I made a simple banner for the primer. Check it out on the OP. It supposed to show a typical Dredge player's game.
As long as we're exploring UB, I think that Force of Will deserves a look -- especially if we're reducing the number of Breakthrough in the deck in favor of Brainstorm. Or perhaps even Foil, since it's a better FoW for our deck as long as you're holding an island. Then again, we probably wouldn't be running enough islands to support it...
Ideas are just ideas. UB Merfolk was considered the deck to beat but people still place with pure blue builds. This deck has been pretty standard since the printing of Iona, so I don't see anything wrong with thinking.
Link:http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html
His list is the most consistent I've played with, and once you get some games in without the crutch of Iona and FKZ, you realize you don't really need them preboard. His follow-up article walks you through all of his decisions in two different tournaments, and can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19003_Ideas_Unbound_Dredging_Through_Two_Legacy_Tournaments.html
Don't forget to read the comments, where he answers some more questions.