Yeah will do. And I agree with your thoughts too.
It's not that I think additional discard is needed, but I like trying different things on occasion for the hell of it.
The additional discard would perhaps only be sided in, if fast combo/storm or non-brainstorm decks were across the table from me, so I could get the maximum effect from the discard. Enlightened Tutor still sucks.
I like Unmask (I used to run it in Manaless too), mainly because I can use multiples to exile to itself, and being a 4-cmc card makes it a little harder to counter too.
Doesn't do it for me.
If we're using a DR to bring back a creature from the grave, we're not really facing oppressive hate and we're already within reach of winning.
So we could just race them.... but;
In this scenario you're talking about, I'd want something using like Ashen Rider, given it's black for Unmask, Ichorid etc. and that it can deal with stuff that stops you winning like Glacial Chasm.
For me it depends on the meta of your area/playgroup. Leyline of the Void has been non existent in sideboards as of late so Natural State seems to be the better choice. But if you're going to a Grand Prix or any large tournament with an unknown meta, I would always bring Nature's Claim. That's just me of course.
I agree about the goblins. They just don't seem like a great option compared to reanimating a creature that will win you the game.
I also agree about the new Natural State. I could see running a mix of that and Nature's Claim, although I bet Natural State will almost always be better, especially if your meta doesn't see many leylines.
The main drawback with State is that it can't hit Leyline. The 4 life from Claim usually doesn't matter but there are certainly games where it does.
So, which is better? State or Claim? Thoughts?
Claims is more flexible. It's not just LotV to consider.
Being able to nuke a Dream Halls, Omniscience, Sneak Attack etc. can be useful, given I generally bring in Claims to fight hate anyway.
For me, State is a card I will buy and test, and FWIW I think it will generally be a worthy choice.
BUT;
I still see people play LotV, so State is a risky choice for me.
I got mildly bad news, everyone. Last night I went 1-3 at my game store. The bad news is that I mostly lost to poor draws, so maybe I just had a lot of bad luck. The good news is that my sideboard plan was pretty much perfect in each matchup, so at least I played correctly, even if my deck didn't want me to win much.
In other news, I don't know what's going on with the new primer. I wrote it weeks ago but I can't get the admins to respond about it. I'm sure it will be up someday.
I built this deck a couple of years ago but never got around to finishing the sideboard or taking it to any events. Now that I'm able to make it to the weekly legacy event in my area, I'd love to play dredge at the card store
I don't have the budget yet for LEDs yet but once I get them, I'll swap them in taking out 4x Tireless Tribe and upgrade Careful Study's to Faithless Looting's. Is the list I have at the moment powerful enough to take into an unknown meta?
Is the list I have at the moment powerful enough to take into an unknown meta?
Your side needs a little work, but the main is alright.
Personally I would do this;
(Main) -Zealot, -1 DR (goes to side), +2 Faithless Looting
(Side) -3 Winds of Change, -Icky (you won't miss it) +4 Answers.
Reasons being;
Zealot is a personal choice, I don't think it's really necessary. Elesh & Iona are the best reanimation targets. I run 4 Looting, 4 Study & 3-4 Breakthru typically.
Reason being, Breakthru & LED are usually the first cards you'll consider siding out in game 2 & 3, opponent dependant. On that, you want to minimise the amount of cards that come into dredge, it's not the kind of deck you can expect consistency from, if you side in 15 cards.
Winds of Change doesn't fit. Chain of Vapor is personal choice, I prefer to a run more permanent answer to RiP/Cage etc., so take a look at the Evoke creatures (avoids countertop, Spell snare style play), Nature's Claim or the new State card, Abrupt Decay etc. The flashback cards are okay, but aren't useful against the proper hate like RiP.
Sorry for the delayed response, but welcome biotitan! Dredge is a pretty fun deck to play and it has a lot of potential to just blow people up. If you have any questions about specific matchups or card choices feel free to ask us, as there are at least a few of us who regularly play Dredge and pay attention to the thread.
If you aren't going to get LEDs you will have a little less potential velocity, but you can definitely play the deck without them. If you aren't already playing Breakthrough you might try four of those to fill part of the gap left by the missing LEDs.
Oh, also, I watched the video and was fairly amused. I think it was a pretty good introduction to Dredge in general, though obviously they didn't cover many nuances of the deck. Maybe it will generate some more interest in the deck.
What match ups would you bring Linvala in? I think the most common sideboard DR targets would be Elesh Norn, Iona, and Ashen Rider. In lists where they have targets in the main, the most common targets would be Flame-Kin, Flayer, and Griselbrand.
I think the list looks good except for two small preferences:
1. I prefer to have 13 or 14 lands because I always have mana issues. That could be just me, though.
2. I usually put Dread Return and a target in the mainboard because if you can't do it in game 1 you usually have a much harder time pulling it off against graveyard hate in games 2 and 3. Sure, some Matchups you want to focus on your DR plan, but at least in my meta I'm usually sideboarding out the more all-in cards like some LED, DR, and even Breakthrough.
Like I said though, that has been my personal experience, and running four of all those good spells in your mainboard is certainly an attractive idea. Have you tested it much? You should know what you're getting yourself into before buying Dredge
The Quadlazer list is a good place to start but I agree with Eretoryi's points in tweaking the mainboard as well. Iona with 2 dread returns in the main is fine. And play as many postboard games as you can to have a feel of playing around/against graveyard hate. The more comfortable/confident you are playing against hate, the better your chances are at winning/top 8ing tournaments.
You could try -1 Ichorid and -2 Putrid Imp for the DR package. You could also try cutting 1 Breakthrough for the 13th land. I personally don't like cutting draw spells as they help dig for answers during postboard games so I cut all 4 Putrid Imps instead. But that's just my personal preference.
That's true, I would definitely consider Putrid Imp a safe alternative cut to Careful Study.
Don't forget, zealot, that you could also consider Flame-Kin Zealot or Flayer of the Hatebound as mainboard DR targets that allow you to basically combo out and win on the spot.
I built the LEDless version of this deck years ago, misplaced all the cards, now am building the LED version. Been watching various SCG videos of matches, pretty much confirming buying into dredge.
Based on my personal experience, yes. Most of my mulligans are caused by not having a single land in my opening hand. I've tried 12 to 15 lands (14/15 lands are LEDless builds) and those 1-3 lands really do improve your mulligans. Postboard games are also reliant on rainbow lands since you can't cast Nature's Claim and Firestorm with Cephalid Coliseum. I'd even run the 14th land in LED dredge if I had the slot for it.
Right on, beanman! It feels great to mulligan to like four and still blow up on turn one Just let us know what we can do to help you learn the deck, man.
I have to agree with SHABOOGS again about the lands. I also started my original testing and playing with 12 lands, but it's true that Cephalid Coliseum doesn't really function as a land all the time. In fact, I've had to mulligan so many times due to not having a land that I now sideboard two Lotus Petal for decks I really need to cast stuff quickly and or pay for Daze. Alternatively, you could sideboard more lands. I just chose the Petals because they are potentially quicker than lands because you can play them on the same turn you already dropped a land.
I've won games where I've mulligan down to 3 cards (Land, LED, Looting). Don't be afraid to mulligan with this deck if your opening hand doesn't have any way to start the dredge engine going. Lotus Petal is a good alternative to rainbow lands for reasons stated by Eretoryi. Some even use it to enable Abrupt Decay in their sideboards.
I just want to express my love for LED. It's so good.
Maybe you could help me out, SHABOOGS. I have messaged the moderators off and on for a month about getting our primer updated but they just don't seem to have the time to respond. Maybe you can try getting in touch with someone? I've done most of the writing already and it would be cool to collaborate together and get ourselves a nice and updated primer to show off.
That's the problem I'm having. I messaged both of the Legacy mods, ExpiredRascals and Teia Rabishu, and Teia told me that Rascals is the one to talk to about the primers. He said "write a first draft and if we like it you can take over." I did write the primer, I just left a couple spaces for contributions from others who wanted to participate.
The only problem is that I haven't heard from Rascals in a month. Maybe he's just too busy with regular life stuff to moderate right now. I was thinking maybe we could ask a moderator from another section if they are able to get in touch with Rascals.
Either way, I'm sure we'll get our primer updated soon, I just don't know how
If there is any particular aspect or topic of Dredge you'd like write about (SHABOOGS or anyone else who wants to contribute), just let me know and we'll make a plan. Otherwise, if you'd like to contribute but don't know what you want to write I can certainly give you a section or topic. We just gotta get a hold of these elusive moderators!
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It's not that I think additional discard is needed, but I like trying different things on occasion for the hell of it.
The additional discard would perhaps only be sided in, if fast combo/storm or non-brainstorm decks were across the table from me, so I could get the maximum effect from the discard. Enlightened Tutor still sucks.
I like Unmask (I used to run it in Manaless too), mainly because I can use multiples to exile to itself, and being a 4-cmc card makes it a little harder to counter too.
If we're using a DR to bring back a creature from the grave, we're not really facing oppressive hate and we're already within reach of winning.
So we could just race them.... but;
In this scenario you're talking about, I'd want something using like Ashen Rider, given it's black for Unmask, Ichorid etc. and that it can deal with stuff that stops you winning like Glacial Chasm.
Natural State - can only hit cmc 3 or less. won't give 4 life.
Nature's Claim - can hit any artifact or enchantment. will give 4 life.
The main drawback with State is that it can't hit Leyline. The 4 life from Claim usually doesn't matter but there are certainly games where it does.
So, which is better? State or Claim? Thoughts?
-Anonymous
I also agree about the new Natural State. I could see running a mix of that and Nature's Claim, although I bet Natural State will almost always be better, especially if your meta doesn't see many leylines.
Claims is more flexible. It's not just LotV to consider.
Being able to nuke a Dream Halls, Omniscience, Sneak Attack etc. can be useful, given I generally bring in Claims to fight hate anyway.
For me, State is a card I will buy and test, and FWIW I think it will generally be a worthy choice.
BUT;
I still see people play LotV, so State is a risky choice for me.
In other news, I don't know what's going on with the new primer. I wrote it weeks ago but I can't get the admins to respond about it. I'm sure it will be up someday.
I built this deck a couple of years ago but never got around to finishing the sideboard or taking it to any events. Now that I'm able to make it to the weekly legacy event in my area, I'd love to play dredge at the card store
I don't have the budget yet for LEDs yet but once I get them, I'll swap them in taking out 4x Tireless Tribe and upgrade Careful Study's to Faithless Looting's. Is the list I have at the moment powerful enough to take into an unknown meta?
4x Putrid Imp
4x Tireless Tribe
Draw & Discard Spells
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
Dredgers
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
Disruption & Beatdown
3x Ichorid
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Dread Return
1x Flame-kin Zealot
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
Lands
4x City of Brass
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Mana Confluence
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Firestorm
1x Ichorid
3x Leyline of the Void
3x Winds of Change
Your side needs a little work, but the main is alright.
Personally I would do this;
(Main) -Zealot, -1 DR (goes to side), +2 Faithless Looting
(Side) -3 Winds of Change, -Icky (you won't miss it) +4 Answers.
Reasons being;
Zealot is a personal choice, I don't think it's really necessary. Elesh & Iona are the best reanimation targets. I run 4 Looting, 4 Study & 3-4 Breakthru typically.
Reason being, Breakthru & LED are usually the first cards you'll consider siding out in game 2 & 3, opponent dependant. On that, you want to minimise the amount of cards that come into dredge, it's not the kind of deck you can expect consistency from, if you side in 15 cards.
Winds of Change doesn't fit. Chain of Vapor is personal choice, I prefer to a run more permanent answer to RiP/Cage etc., so take a look at the Evoke creatures (avoids countertop, Spell snare style play), Nature's Claim or the new State card, Abrupt Decay etc. The flashback cards are okay, but aren't useful against the proper hate like RiP.
https://youtu.be/owKYK7yXBzI
Nice to see a new video on legacy dredge.
If you aren't going to get LEDs you will have a little less potential velocity, but you can definitely play the deck without them. If you aren't already playing Breakthrough you might try four of those to fill part of the gap left by the missing LEDs.
1. I prefer to have 13 or 14 lands because I always have mana issues. That could be just me, though.
2. I usually put Dread Return and a target in the mainboard because if you can't do it in game 1 you usually have a much harder time pulling it off against graveyard hate in games 2 and 3. Sure, some Matchups you want to focus on your DR plan, but at least in my meta I'm usually sideboarding out the more all-in cards like some LED, DR, and even Breakthrough.
Like I said though, that has been my personal experience, and running four of all those good spells in your mainboard is certainly an attractive idea. Have you tested it much? You should know what you're getting yourself into before buying Dredge
Don't forget, zealot, that you could also consider Flame-Kin Zealot or Flayer of the Hatebound as mainboard DR targets that allow you to basically combo out and win on the spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVybZvSOR_4
Game 3 solidified it for me though, I see why this deck mulligans SUPER aggresively
My H/W list
I have to agree with SHABOOGS again about the lands. I also started my original testing and playing with 12 lands, but it's true that Cephalid Coliseum doesn't really function as a land all the time. In fact, I've had to mulligan so many times due to not having a land that I now sideboard two Lotus Petal for decks I really need to cast stuff quickly and or pay for Daze. Alternatively, you could sideboard more lands. I just chose the Petals because they are potentially quicker than lands because you can play them on the same turn you already dropped a land.
Maybe you could help me out, SHABOOGS. I have messaged the moderators off and on for a month about getting our primer updated but they just don't seem to have the time to respond. Maybe you can try getting in touch with someone? I've done most of the writing already and it would be cool to collaborate together and get ourselves a nice and updated primer to show off.
The only problem is that I haven't heard from Rascals in a month. Maybe he's just too busy with regular life stuff to moderate right now. I was thinking maybe we could ask a moderator from another section if they are able to get in touch with Rascals.
Either way, I'm sure we'll get our primer updated soon, I just don't know how
If there is any particular aspect or topic of Dredge you'd like write about (SHABOOGS or anyone else who wants to contribute), just let me know and we'll make a plan. Otherwise, if you'd like to contribute but don't know what you want to write I can certainly give you a section or topic. We just gotta get a hold of these elusive moderators!