has anyone ever used quicken to flash dread return and evade graveyard hate?
or has the cards possibilities for the deck ever been discussed before?
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Do you play Dredge??? I would like to hear some examples of dredging on the draw step ever being a good idea. My buddy is curious
When else would you dredge come turn 3 and 4 if you have not won yet? You want everything in your deck to be in your yard and the draw step is the most consistent part of the turn for us to dredge.
However, games 2 and 3 you need to evaluate the board. Does your opponent have hate? how do you play around it? Game one, the answer is always dredge, games 2 and 3, you need to determine if i can slow dredge around hate and make them waste their hate, ie relic, cypt, or do i need hate for their hate, ie leyline, rip, cage. It is a complex issue that you need to test. you need to learn the interactions. Reading them online is great and everyone here provides wonderful incite on the deck, but until you start to test, you are not going to completely understand how to play the deck past game 1. Game 2 and 3 is where your question most commonly comes up for me.
I did something similar a while ago. I posted my results somewhere (might actually have been on The Source).
Tested decks:
- quadlaser
- LED Dredge with 14 Lands and 1 DR main
- LEDless Dredge with TT, 15 lands and 1 DR main
Sample size: 50 goldfishes with every list (25 otp, 25 otd)
Aspects considered:
- average number of Cabal Therapy that I had access to by turn X
- actual win turn (attacking opponent down to zero)
In short, LEDless won, LED with 14 land 2nd and quadlaser 3rd. The decisive factor were mulligans and fizzling once I was able to go off. LEDless mulled the least and fizzled the least, LED with 14 lands mulled about as much as LEDless, but fizzled more often and quadlaser mulliganed a crap ton and often lost one turn when it comes to killing thanks to the inability to turn dudes into Zombies.
Make what you want of this. For me it was one of the reasons why I still don't consider LED Dredge superior to LEDless Dredge, and my opinion has not changed since then based on multiple tournament results (I do better with LEDless on average).
Might of course all just be luck/chance.
I don't think it is chance. The measurements we just came up with tell a similar story, even though the rules were different. That the deck is better with Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting is not supported by testing.
This was really shocking to me. I've played the Quadlazer in some smaller tournaments, and done quite well with it. Until two days ago, I was sure it was better. Tournament results aren't going to be persuasive either way, of course. It isn't a controlled environment. Adam Prosak might have won an SCG Open with LED Dredge, but he might have won with Tireless Dredge as well. Or, for that matter, a ham sandwich.
has anyone ever used quicken to flash dread return and evade graveyard hate?
or has the cards possibilities for the deck ever been discussed before?
I don't think there is space in the sideboard to consider such a cute interaction... Plus you have to already have the creatures to sacrifice in play and a relevant return target on the GY (or be lucky enough to dredge on with the draw from the quicken). That's too situational for me.
When else would you dredge come turn 3 and 4 if you have not won yet? You want everything in your deck to be in your yard and the draw step is the most consistent part of the turn for us to dredge.
However, games 2 and 3 you need to evaluate the board. Does your opponent have hate? how do you play around it? Game one, the answer is always dredge, games 2 and 3, you need to determine if i can slow dredge around hate and make them waste their hate, ie relic, cypt, or do i need hate for their hate, ie leyline, rip, cage. It is a complex issue that you need to test. you need to learn the interactions. Reading them online is great and everyone here provides wonderful incite on the deck, but until you start to test, you are not going to completely understand how to play the deck past game 1. Game 2 and 3 is where your question most commonly comes up for me.
So, why no living death esque cards in here? Couldn't it be explosive with enough creatures in the GY?
How much mana do you normally have turn 2 or 3? When I play, it ranges from 0 up to 2 max. I never get that much mana and, pending on which version you run, DR FKZ, you swing with 6 to 9 3/3 is normally gg. Which card would you suggest and how would you ramp to the mana? I can not think of any ritual spell with flash back right now... It could be an interesting idea, but that seems more along the lines of reanimator than dredge. Just my look on it.
I don't think it is chance. The measurements we just came up with tell a similar story, even though the rules were different. That the deck is better with Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting is not supported by testing. .
Yeah, and it's troubling me, since I win more with the LED's than with TT.
New round of testing, since I think it might be in our goldfish method. We tested speed, but not resilience. I think we need some testing method that involves our opponent playing T1 deathrite, then having the option of holding up deathrite or playing Tarmogoyf. I get lost on what to do from there, though.
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
The trouble with resilience is that it's difficult to measure, which is why we tested goldfish speed instead. There's no ambiguity with what constitutes goldfish speed, though even there we were willfully ignoring the fact that a turn 4 kill might involve triple turn 2 Cabal Therapy, which is pretty darn good.
We might presume to test resilience by running a similar goldfish on the draw against a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, and that test would tell us something. I just don't think the very general 'resilience' would be sufficiently tested by that specific (albeit common) arrangement, and the situation is complicated by most of the best Tireless Dredge lists having been played before the advent of DRS. Alter the list, and we're in pet deck territory, as opposed to proven lists.
It's pretty tricky. Other tests for resilience might include a Spell Pierce, Daze, Force of Will, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, or Trinisphere (as my MUD deck gets even these uncomfortable 3-mana lock pieces down 1st turn with some regularity). Even Goblin Lackey, whom I haven't seen on a table in far too long.
I was about to write that testing all of these situations would be far too laborious, but actually since this is the Internet, we can all just take one of them and trot out 35 hands with each deck under consideration. I'd do my part.
Any takers?
@Falamin, it might be that the list is more resilient, or it might be due to other causes. Perhaps you've gotten better at the deck, for instance maybe your Therapy calls are better with time. I know that my opponents, when they don't know what I'm playing yet, can't Force my 1st turn LEDs fast enough if all I've exposed is a Gemstone Mine. They figure I'm playing Storm.
The trouble with resilience is that it's difficult to measure, which is why we tested goldfish speed instead. There's no ambiguity with what constitutes goldfish speed, though even there we were willfully ignoring the fact that a turn 4 kill might involve triple turn 2 Cabal Therapy, which is pretty darn good.
We might presume to test resilience by running a similar goldfish on the draw against a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, and that test would tell us something. I just don't think the very general 'resilience' would be sufficiently tested by that specific (albeit common) arrangement, and the situation is complicated by most of the best Tireless Dredge lists having been played before the advent of DRS. Alter the list, and we're in pet deck territory, as opposed to proven lists.
It's pretty tricky. Other tests for resilience might include a Spell Pierce, Daze, Force of Will, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, or Trinisphere (as my MUD deck gets even these uncomfortable 3-mana lock pieces down 1st turn with some regularity). Even Goblin Lackey, whom I haven't seen on a table in far too long.
I was about to write that testing all of these situations would be far too laborious, but actually since this is the Internet, we can all just take one of them and trot out 35 hands with each deck under consideration. I'd do my part.
Any takers?
@Falamin, it might be that the list is more resilient, or it might be due to other causes. Perhaps you've gotten better at the deck, for instance maybe your Therapy calls are better with time. I know that my opponents, when they don't know what I'm playing yet, can't Force my 1st turn LEDs fast enough if all I've exposed is a Gemstone Mine. They figure I'm playing Storm.
I don't think there is space in the sideboard to consider such a cute interaction... Plus you have to already have the creatures to sacrifice in play and a relevant return target on the GY (or be lucky enough to dredge on with the draw from the quicken). That's too situational for me.
i'm trying to think of a way to trick/forcing my opponent into burning there graveyard hate, so one could respond with quicken, flashback dread return
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Of course, not, one can't Force of Will a Gemstone Mine. You can't even double Force of Will one of those.
I mean I played a Gemstone Mine first (for Daze cover), then lay out LED to be greeted with Force of Will. In the game in question, my opponent led with a turn 1 Ponder + Shuffle.
...
The trick to force an opponent to burn the GY hate early is to have a reusable discard outlet on the table and dredge into a Bridge, Ichorid, and some food. It doesn't take much to rebuild. 1 dredger will do it, a dredger and an accelerator if you want to do it in style.
Or just dredge into Ancient Grudge, which is the beauty of Ancient Grudge. Not much point in holding back a Tormod's Crypt when that flips into the graveyard.
The deck is built to dredge as much as possible, as quickly as possible. Rather than move heaven and earth to save a Dread Return, we can just flip another one.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
The only cards I absolutely wouldn't leave home without are Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, and Ancient Grudge. I have a soft spot for Pithing Needle and Leyline of the Void, but I'm old school, out of touch, and I don't bring many cards in, ever.
I personally have enjoyed Firestorm as an answer to the clock that the opponent is establishing. Also the fact that it gets cards in your hand into your graveyard even if it is countered is nice. I also run MB Street Wraith though so I like going off of that immediately.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
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or has the cards possibilities for the deck ever been discussed before?
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Dredge is allowed to Dredge on the draw step, right??.. Right??? Oh jeez I'm sensing embarrassment!
Well.. Yeah, but I also wanted to know if Wizards would ever create a ruling against doing this. Cause you know, it's the draw step
Do you play Dredge??? I would like to hear some examples of dredging on the draw step ever being a good idea. My buddy is curious
When else would you dredge come turn 3 and 4 if you have not won yet? You want everything in your deck to be in your yard and the draw step is the most consistent part of the turn for us to dredge.
However, games 2 and 3 you need to evaluate the board. Does your opponent have hate? how do you play around it? Game one, the answer is always dredge, games 2 and 3, you need to determine if i can slow dredge around hate and make them waste their hate, ie relic, cypt, or do i need hate for their hate, ie leyline, rip, cage. It is a complex issue that you need to test. you need to learn the interactions. Reading them online is great and everyone here provides wonderful incite on the deck, but until you start to test, you are not going to completely understand how to play the deck past game 1. Game 2 and 3 is where your question most commonly comes up for me.
Is this closer to what you were looking for?
I don't think it is chance. The measurements we just came up with tell a similar story, even though the rules were different. That the deck is better with Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting is not supported by testing.
This was really shocking to me. I've played the Quadlazer in some smaller tournaments, and done quite well with it. Until two days ago, I was sure it was better. Tournament results aren't going to be persuasive either way, of course. It isn't a controlled environment. Adam Prosak might have won an SCG Open with LED Dredge, but he might have won with Tireless Dredge as well. Or, for that matter, a ham sandwich.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I don't think there is space in the sideboard to consider such a cute interaction... Plus you have to already have the creatures to sacrifice in play and a relevant return target on the GY (or be lucky enough to dredge on with the draw from the quicken). That's too situational for me.
Yes, thank you.
How much mana do you normally have turn 2 or 3? When I play, it ranges from 0 up to 2 max. I never get that much mana and, pending on which version you run, DR FKZ, you swing with 6 to 9 3/3 is normally gg. Which card would you suggest and how would you ramp to the mana? I can not think of any ritual spell with flash back right now... It could be an interesting idea, but that seems more along the lines of reanimator than dredge. Just my look on it.
Yeah, and it's troubling me, since I win more with the LED's than with TT.
New round of testing, since I think it might be in our goldfish method. We tested speed, but not resilience. I think we need some testing method that involves our opponent playing T1 deathrite, then having the option of holding up deathrite or playing Tarmogoyf. I get lost on what to do from there, though.
We might presume to test resilience by running a similar goldfish on the draw against a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman, and that test would tell us something. I just don't think the very general 'resilience' would be sufficiently tested by that specific (albeit common) arrangement, and the situation is complicated by most of the best Tireless Dredge lists having been played before the advent of DRS. Alter the list, and we're in pet deck territory, as opposed to proven lists.
It's pretty tricky. Other tests for resilience might include a Spell Pierce, Daze, Force of Will, Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK, Chalice of the Void, Blood Moon, or Trinisphere (as my MUD deck gets even these uncomfortable 3-mana lock pieces down 1st turn with some regularity). Even Goblin Lackey, whom I haven't seen on a table in far too long.
I was about to write that testing all of these situations would be far too laborious, but actually since this is the Internet, we can all just take one of them and trot out 35 hands with each deck under consideration. I'd do my part.
Any takers?
@Falamin, it might be that the list is more resilient, or it might be due to other causes. Perhaps you've gotten better at the deck, for instance maybe your Therapy calls are better with time. I know that my opponents, when they don't know what I'm playing yet, can't Force my 1st turn LEDs fast enough if all I've exposed is a Gemstone Mine. They figure I'm playing Storm.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Wait, wait... What?!? Forcing a Gemstone
i'm trying to think of a way to trick/forcing my opponent into burning there graveyard hate, so one could respond with quicken, flashback dread return
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
Of course, not, one can't Force of Will a Gemstone Mine. You can't even double Force of Will one of those.
I mean I played a Gemstone Mine first (for Daze cover), then lay out LED to be greeted with Force of Will. In the game in question, my opponent led with a turn 1 Ponder + Shuffle.
...
The trick to force an opponent to burn the GY hate early is to have a reusable discard outlet on the table and dredge into a Bridge, Ichorid, and some food. It doesn't take much to rebuild. 1 dredger will do it, a dredger and an accelerator if you want to do it in style.
Or just dredge into Ancient Grudge, which is the beauty of Ancient Grudge. Not much point in holding back a Tormod's Crypt when that flips into the graveyard.
The deck is built to dredge as much as possible, as quickly as possible. Rather than move heaven and earth to save a Dread Return, we can just flip another one.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Yes, besides one of the things it does, it's also used for the other thing it does.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Patience, all works of art take time to create... and I'm not very good at Photoshop.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Currently playing in Modern:
BBB8Rack
Currently Playing in Legacy:
Foil BELCHER
"Never interrupt your opponent while he's making a mistake"
Sorry that this isn't much of an answer.
The only cards I absolutely wouldn't leave home without are Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, and Ancient Grudge. I have a soft spot for Pithing Needle and Leyline of the Void, but I'm old school, out of touch, and I don't bring many cards in, ever.
Some folks swear by their Firestorms.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge