So, Firestorm is more for an early 1 - 2 creatures / players, dealing 1-3 damage with it, rather than a discard version of Wrath of God? Sometimes, when I jump into a deck and haven't played with it, I make horrible assumptions about how a card works. It took me an hour to figure out why ppl play with Griselbrand... (which, btw, is used to reanimate and just go bonkers with the dredge, correct?)
As far as the other suggestions for SB go, I noticed that most ppl play with 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria and 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. While the idea behind each is pretty obvious (Iona vs Control; Elesh vs Aggro), but when are these two put to best use? What matchups are these good for?
Am I right in assuming Leyline is really only good for the mirror? I don't see a lot of them in SBs anymore, and I'm not even sure what matchup they come in for...
Nature's Claim vs Chain of Vapor - It seems like the only time I'd like to use Claim over Chain is cards like Tormod's Crypt/Engineered Explosives. If you bounce it, they can technically replay it immediately. Cards that cost more than 0 or 1, I'd rather have them destroyed... That being said, why aren't more ppl playing Chain and almost everyone is playing Claim?? I get the fast Art/Enchant kill, but won't bounce work just as well? The only reason I'm harping on this point is this: while you have 8 Rainbow lands, you do have 4 blue sources. You have access to 100% of your lands when you need a turn 1/2 removal, while with Claim, you only have access to 2/3 your land! Sometimes, I get that turn 1 Coliseum, and curse the fact that I'm looking at a Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp in hand.
One last thing:
Ashen Ghoul / Nether Shadow - Why? is it just Ichorid 4-6? The only reason I'm seeing this as a good thing is for cards like Extirpate / Surgical Extraction. They remove your Ichorids, and you have access to 3 more cards that function the same way. Am I missing something with these guys? Seems like there's better SB cards that can be used in those spots... and from the last few top 8's, seems like there IS a lot of ppl playing 2-3 Nether Shadows in their SB. Usually 2.
Again, thanks for the help
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Ashen Ghoul I haven't seen for a while, but I did play nether shadow at one point. They're generally run as extra recursive creatures in decks that aren't going for the lightning fast combo kill.
Which is better, Ashen or Nether? On one hand, you have a 1/1 2 drop (in case you need to actually play it... Rare, but it's happened to me in the past with a Thug or Narco), that ETB for free most of the time; or you have a 3/1 4 drop (so no plays from hand), that needs B to activate. Other than the 3 power interaction with FotH, which would you run in the board? I want to build my main w/ 4 LED, 1 Griselbrand and a FKZ... And I didn't know which is better, a 3/1 that needs B to ETB, or a 1/1 for BB that is free to ETB...
And again, what matchups do ppl side in Iona and Elesh? Still trying to figure out when those guys are the best... cuz I'm liking Ashen Rider more and more, but dont know which of these two to take out of the SB... or if I should add a 3rd target for Silver Bullets...
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
Personally, that one black is a pain. When you think that sometimes we go off with only blue mana, or we have a land that dies after 3 uses and you have to use it turn one, yea. It's not a great deal to have to pay for your grave recursion.
Are you referring to the Grisel & FKZ? I was using Grisel like other decks that run him. Like Cephalid Sage was used back in the day (which was a Wednesday), where you reanimate to ensure the rest of your deck got dredged. There have been times where i'm almost to the point of killing the guy, but my win con (FKZ, FotH) is still in the deck. I was originally going to run 2 Grisel main, like other top 8 decks have done, but that seems redundant. Either you hit Grisel and dredge the rest of the way to a win, or you hit FKZ and just win. The 2nd Grisel seems unecessary. Am I wrong in my assessment about this? And i'm not being a jerk with that question, I actually want to know if i'm wrong so i can fix it.
Personally, that one black is a pain. When you think that sometimes we go off with only blue mana, or we have a land that dies after 3 uses and you have to use it turn one, yea. It's not a great deal to have to pay for your grave recursion.
That's what i figured, but I didn't know if Ashen was better in the FotH versions because of the 3 power...
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
I doubt your wrong, I just rather play a Quadlaser with 2 extra rainbow land over extra junk main. I mean we have the best first game win ratio of any deck in the format. I say put that stuff in the side where it belongs and run a more consistent main deck. It's not like we really need the faster clock since we run the best discard package in the format.
...I just rather play a Quadlaser with 2 extra rainbow land over extra junk main..
Quadlaser? I'm sorry to sound stupid, but I'm not familiar with the nickname...
Like I said before, I used to play the deck when it was popular a few years back, and i'm only now getting back into the deck. Any more advice you guys can give, especially with the SB would be appreciated!
-Yawg
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From void evolved Phyrexia. Great Yawgmoth, Father of Machines, saw its perfection. Thus The Grand Evolution began. — Phyrexian Scriptures
I run this with these changes:
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+2 Undiscovered Paradise
It is remarkably consistent, I have toyed with cutting an Imp and adding in one Maindeck Return. Not because I want to use it game one but because I ran out of sideboard space. The irony ended up being that the card I used Return on the most was Imp to discard my own dredgers. So after a while I swapped them back over.
I run this with these changes:
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+2 Undiscovered Paradise
It is remarkably consistent, I have toyed with cutting an Imp and adding in one Maindeck Return. Not because I want to use it game one but because I ran out of sideboard space. The irony ended up being that the card I used Return on the most was Imp to discard my own dredgers. So after a while I swapped them back over.
What do u run in the side? Because it looks like you win the turn AFTER you 'go off.' Create the tokens the turn you massive dredge, then next turn hit the Ichorids and swing... Seems a turn slow for combo, but if it works...
A whole bunch of hate alongside a 3x DR package with Iona and Flayer as the targets.
As for slow for combo, I am not really having to race combo. I can win turn two, I do win turn 3. As an elf player those are numbers I am happy with. Also do not forget that a massive Dredge also means ripping apart the other guys hand.
I'm not sure if this has already been said but how is one with nothing in this deck? Would it work to accelerate dredge's game plan or is it not worth mentioning?
Personally, I like having DR and sons in the sideboard. I have go elsewhere against decks that can kill my Bridges each time they come out. In this situation having the option to just deal damage as stuff bounces wins me the game. Because now I don't need my bridges.
Norn I feel does not win games on her own that another card could not have done too. Goblins die to Iona, Elves too. Maybe in the mirror she holds her weight but if that starts happening locally I would look into it. Brand I think is the better choice here. He reads "Pay 7 life, win target game". Holds his weight far above Norn.
I'm not sure if this has already been said but how is one with nothing in this deck? Would it work to accelerate dredge's game plan or is it not worth mentioning?
No. Most decks don't like going all in turn one and losing.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
It costs the same as breakthrough without the draw attached, it does the same as LED but costs mana rather than making it, and its the same cost as putrid imp, but its not selective and can't attack/block.
I think this is a perfect explanation. If you think about it, Putrid Imp costs the same as One with Nothing, and can also make you pitch your entire hand. Same goes for Tireless Tribe. With Imp, you can still use it to fuel your Ichorids later on. Breakthrough CAN be countered, but so can everything else in the deck. BT can get you to dredge 4 times before pitching your hand for the cost of U. And with LED, yes, it's a risk, but you can do a lot before cracking it for the RRR for Faithless Looting's Flashback cost... So all in all, it's not used.
As for combo, there's no reason to argue this point. Everyone knows that it can be as explosive as a turn 1/2 kill, or can win on turn 5/6. If I was going to label it, I'd label it as a System Deck. It's not a 1-2 punch like Kiki-Jiki / Pestermite, but it does (for the most part) rely on the combo of milling Narcomoebas into play, recurring Ichorids if need be, sacrificing them to Cabal Therapy to remove threats and Dread Return to put FKZ or a silver bullet into play as early as possible to kill your opponent. In the same way, Pod decks work similar in it's ideology. Use many cards together to achieve one goal. So why argue about if it's a 'combo' deck or not?
I know there were many times playing the deck where I'd win or lose in 5 min, or it'd take me to the buzzer and still pull off the win. It's not a mindless deck (which is where the anti-combo sentiment is coming from), but can win before turn 4, which is mainly in the realm of combo.
What I want to get to is this: Can we have more discussion on the sideboard? I feel that is where this deck needs the most discussion. I mean, the deck is pretty standard with a tweak here and there. Some run X in the main, while others run Y. Some run 3 of a card, while others run 4. All cards are pretty much the same. The sideboard is where I've seen variety.
I felt it was important to post my build before talking about my sideboard. No, I don't have putrid imp. I've been on a kick recently to not be running that card, and it might be incorrect, but Tunison's deck from the GP was obviously doing something right.
Now, for the sideboard. You need anti-permanent hate against the following decks:Sneak and Show, All the delver variants, all the stoneblade variants, miracles, painted stone, jund, and Death and Taxes. The 3/3 split of Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim is in there because Chain is so much easier to cast in the deck, but claim is much more effective for the most part.
In general against the above decks:
-4 breakthrough, -1 LED, -1 (something else that is matchup dependent), +5 some combination of the 6 cards, +1 tarnished citadel. This can be tweaked depending on the matchup.
vs most combo: -2-3 ichorid, -X careful study (again, matchup dependent)+2 unmask, +0-3 Leyline (graveyard deck or not)
Vs any creature decks, specifically the ones with access to counterspells: -1 FKZ, -3 LED, +1 Elesh Norn, +3 firestorm.
If you want my advice on a specific matchup, I'd be happy to oblige. Too hard to cover all the bases here. After all, there are over 20 viable archetypes in our beloved format!
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Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never Compromise.
Now, for the sideboard. You need anti-permanent hate against the following decks:Sneak and Show, All the delver variants, all the stoneblade variants, miracles, painted stone, jund, and Death and Taxes. The 3/3 split of Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim is in there because Chain is so much easier to cast in the deck, but claim is much more effective for the most part.
In general against the above decks:
-4 breakthrough, -1 LED, -1 (something else that is matchup dependent), +5 some combination of the 6 cards, +1 tarnished citadel. This can be tweaked depending on the matchup.
Now, a few questions here: Why take out Breakthrough? I always here ppl talking about how they take the BT out first, or cut the 4th one for something else... I've always felt that BT is the key to going off... I mean, yes, all will draw you 2+ (Careful Study & Faithless Looting), but with BT, you get to really dredge. I've always found that if you lead with your CS / FL, you get that 1-2 dredgers in the yard, and with BT you go off... Why would you/anyone go there first with the cuts?
Also, what are some specific cards in these matchups that get Claimed or Chained?
vs most combo: -2-3 ichorid, -X careful study (again, matchup dependent)+2 unmask, +0-3 Leyline (graveyard deck or not)
I haven't seen Unmask in the board of most ppl's decks. I like it... Is this substituted with Iona, Shield of Emeria for the most part? Combo and Control get this girl out as soon as possible and either win off it, or keep dredging on subsequant (spelling?) turns to add more attack to the group? Is that basically how things play out with Iona?
Vs any creature decks, specifically the ones with access to counterspells: -1 FKZ, -3 LED, +1 Elesh Norn, +3 firestorm.
So, basically tribal matchups and heavy aggro decks (decks w/ Goyf & True-Name Nemesis)?
Just bought 4 LEDs and I'm assembling dredge now. What do you guys think a SB against mostly "fair decks" like stoneblade, jund and delver would be. There's a little bit of storm in there too I was thinking something like:
I personally run a Combo sideboard against those kinds of decks. Because if they are running any kind of creature hate they can kill your bridges. So it is better to sidestep the need to swarm and just combo off.
I don't have putrid imp. I've been on a kick recently to not be running that card, and it might be incorrect, but Tunison's deck from the GP was obviously doing something right.
I think this change is even more telling that we should be running Bloodghast. It's better at enabling a turn 2 win, can realistically be played as a bear when graveyard hate hits play, and incentivises us to play a copy of Life from the Loam. I can tell from experience that getting back multiple Cephalid Coliseums is a blowout.
Also, those extra Dread Return targets you're running would probably be better served as a couple extra lands. Dredge can make good use of even up to three lands (flashback Faithless Looting) so getting a hand with multiple lands is perfectly fine. Getting a hand with none is almost always a mulligan.
I think we should be running something very close to this moving forward:
I tend to agree with you about having another land or so. The only problem with this deck is that it seems so tight. There's not much wiggle room to be adding or taking out cards... That being said, I HAVE been looking to wiggle another land or two. I wouldn't be running the Bloodghast version, but that extra land(s) is great. When I have opening hands w/ 2+ lands in it, I'm excited. It's tough to win quickly with only one land in hand off your top 7.
I've been Fishbowling constantly with this, and I like the 1 Grisel in the main for when you have a lot dredging, but you just can't hit that win... You dump 1 Dread Return, and 1 Grisel and you can pretty much mill the rest of your deck and hit the win. I've even had 2 Bridges in the yard, an Imp/Tribe and a Narco in play, sac one for a Therapy, sac the 2 Zombies and the Imp to returnGrisel and finished the combo... The reason for 3 Thugs in the main: I'm tired of going for a dredge (like with Looting) with a Grave-Troll in the yard and not flipping a second dang dredger. I wanted another dredger in the deck to consistently hit multiple dredgers... and it's just my preference. Also, when I get my 4 LED, I'll replace the Tribes and most likely another card. The reason for 3 Tribes is that I need to hit 1 discard outlet, and having 4 and 4 Imps / Tribes was getting silly.
Don't forget Memory's Journey can also be used as anti-graveyard on your opponent (reanimator, 42 lands, etc)
I like putting two Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard because in my meta many players play storm and the only way I can beat them is to go off faster without getting hit by their duress. It's also a good sideboard against Grindstone or Helm of Obedience combo which is very present in my meta.
How is working for you: 12 lands and 3 Faithless Looting (8 rainbow lands to cast it) ?
BTW, I run 4 Lootings, not 3, but I get your question...
It's not so much a problem with color. It's more a problem with having 12 lands. I'm trying to test out 14 lands. With 3 Careful Study and 4 Breakthrough, I'm able to hit SOMETHING to allow me to draw and pitch. The problem comes after I shuffle the heck out of the deck and draw a land on turn 4...
If I open up with at least a land, I'm pretty good, and 2 lands is great. Yes there are times I open with 2 Coliseums and have an Imp, Tribe, dredger and 2 Lootings in my opener, and yes, super annoying. In that case, usually I hold a card, pitch the dredger, hope to hit another on the next turns dredge, and try and hit threshold for the coliseum. But that's risky.
I'm looking to add another rainbow land or two. The list is tight though...
As far as the other suggestions for SB go, I noticed that most ppl play with 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria and 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. While the idea behind each is pretty obvious (Iona vs Control; Elesh vs Aggro), but when are these two put to best use? What matchups are these good for?
Am I right in assuming Leyline is really only good for the mirror? I don't see a lot of them in SBs anymore, and I'm not even sure what matchup they come in for...
Nature's Claim vs Chain of Vapor - It seems like the only time I'd like to use Claim over Chain is cards like Tormod's Crypt/Engineered Explosives. If you bounce it, they can technically replay it immediately. Cards that cost more than 0 or 1, I'd rather have them destroyed... That being said, why aren't more ppl playing Chain and almost everyone is playing Claim?? I get the fast Art/Enchant kill, but won't bounce work just as well? The only reason I'm harping on this point is this: while you have 8 Rainbow lands, you do have 4 blue sources. You have access to 100% of your lands when you need a turn 1/2 removal, while with Claim, you only have access to 2/3 your land! Sometimes, I get that turn 1 Coliseum, and curse the fact that I'm looking at a Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp in hand.
One last thing:
Ashen Ghoul / Nether Shadow - Why? is it just Ichorid 4-6? The only reason I'm seeing this as a good thing is for cards like Extirpate / Surgical Extraction. They remove your Ichorids, and you have access to 3 more cards that function the same way. Am I missing something with these guys? Seems like there's better SB cards that can be used in those spots... and from the last few top 8's, seems like there IS a lot of ppl playing 2-3 Nether Shadows in their SB. Usually 2.
Again, thanks for the help
-Yawg
Which is better, Ashen or Nether? On one hand, you have a 1/1 2 drop (in case you need to actually play it... Rare, but it's happened to me in the past with a Thug or Narco), that ETB for free most of the time; or you have a 3/1 4 drop (so no plays from hand), that needs B to activate. Other than the 3 power interaction with FotH, which would you run in the board? I want to build my main w/ 4 LED, 1 Griselbrand and a FKZ... And I didn't know which is better, a 3/1 that needs B to ETB, or a 1/1 for BB that is free to ETB...
And again, what matchups do ppl side in Iona and Elesh? Still trying to figure out when those guys are the best... cuz I'm liking Ashen Rider more and more, but dont know which of these two to take out of the SB... or if I should add a 3rd target for Silver Bullets...
-Yawg
Personally, that one black is a pain. When you think that sometimes we go off with only blue mana, or we have a land that dies after 3 uses and you have to use it turn one, yea. It's not a great deal to have to pay for your grave recursion.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Are you referring to the Grisel & FKZ? I was using Grisel like other decks that run him. Like Cephalid Sage was used back in the day (which was a Wednesday), where you reanimate to ensure the rest of your deck got dredged. There have been times where i'm almost to the point of killing the guy, but my win con (FKZ, FotH) is still in the deck. I was originally going to run 2 Grisel main, like other top 8 decks have done, but that seems redundant. Either you hit Grisel and dredge the rest of the way to a win, or you hit FKZ and just win. The 2nd Grisel seems unecessary. Am I wrong in my assessment about this? And i'm not being a jerk with that question, I actually want to know if i'm wrong so i can fix it.
That's what i figured, but I didn't know if Ashen was better in the FotH versions because of the 3 power...
-Yawg
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Quadlaser? I'm sorry to sound stupid, but I'm not familiar with the nickname...
Like I said before, I used to play the deck when it was popular a few years back, and i'm only now getting back into the deck. Any more advice you guys can give, especially with the SB would be appreciated!
-Yawg
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
I run this with these changes:
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
+2 Undiscovered Paradise
It is remarkably consistent, I have toyed with cutting an Imp and adding in one Maindeck Return. Not because I want to use it game one but because I ran out of sideboard space. The irony ended up being that the card I used Return on the most was Imp to discard my own dredgers. So after a while I swapped them back over.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
What do u run in the side? Because it looks like you win the turn AFTER you 'go off.' Create the tokens the turn you massive dredge, then next turn hit the Ichorids and swing... Seems a turn slow for combo, but if it works...
As for slow for combo, I am not really having to race combo. I can win turn two, I do win turn 3. As an elf player those are numbers I am happy with. Also do not forget that a massive Dredge also means ripping apart the other guys hand.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Norn I feel does not win games on her own that another card could not have done too. Goblins die to Iona, Elves too. Maybe in the mirror she holds her weight but if that starts happening locally I would look into it. Brand I think is the better choice here. He reads "Pay 7 life, win target game". Holds his weight far above Norn.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Dredge is no combo deck ? seriously ?
No. Most decks don't like going all in turn one and losing.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I think this is a perfect explanation. If you think about it, Putrid Imp costs the same as One with Nothing, and can also make you pitch your entire hand. Same goes for Tireless Tribe. With Imp, you can still use it to fuel your Ichorids later on. Breakthrough CAN be countered, but so can everything else in the deck. BT can get you to dredge 4 times before pitching your hand for the cost of U. And with LED, yes, it's a risk, but you can do a lot before cracking it for the RRR for Faithless Looting's Flashback cost... So all in all, it's not used.
I know there were many times playing the deck where I'd win or lose in 5 min, or it'd take me to the buzzer and still pull off the win. It's not a mindless deck (which is where the anti-combo sentiment is coming from), but can win before turn 4, which is mainly in the realm of combo.
What I want to get to is this: Can we have more discussion on the sideboard? I feel that is where this deck needs the most discussion. I mean, the deck is pretty standard with a tweak here and there. Some run X in the main, while others run Y. Some run 3 of a card, while others run 4. All cards are pretty much the same. The sideboard is where I've seen variety.
What deck do you bring in Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for?
What do you do against Rest in Peace?
I love the idea of Memory's Journey, but there's no room in the main, and I can't think of MU where you want to side it in?
Can we bring the convo back to the SB?
-Yawg
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
1 Griselbrand
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Unmask
I felt it was important to post my build before talking about my sideboard. No, I don't have putrid imp. I've been on a kick recently to not be running that card, and it might be incorrect, but Tunison's deck from the GP was obviously doing something right.
Now, for the sideboard. You need anti-permanent hate against the following decks:Sneak and Show, All the delver variants, all the stoneblade variants, miracles, painted stone, jund, and Death and Taxes. The 3/3 split of Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim is in there because Chain is so much easier to cast in the deck, but claim is much more effective for the most part.
In general against the above decks:
-4 breakthrough, -1 LED, -1 (something else that is matchup dependent), +5 some combination of the 6 cards, +1 tarnished citadel. This can be tweaked depending on the matchup.
vs most combo: -2-3 ichorid, -X careful study (again, matchup dependent)+2 unmask, +0-3 Leyline (graveyard deck or not)
Vs any creature decks, specifically the ones with access to counterspells: -1 FKZ, -3 LED, +1 Elesh Norn, +3 firestorm.
If you want my advice on a specific matchup, I'd be happy to oblige. Too hard to cover all the bases here. After all, there are over 20 viable archetypes in our beloved format!
Now, a few questions here: Why take out Breakthrough? I always here ppl talking about how they take the BT out first, or cut the 4th one for something else... I've always felt that BT is the key to going off... I mean, yes, all will draw you 2+ (Careful Study & Faithless Looting), but with BT, you get to really dredge. I've always found that if you lead with your CS / FL, you get that 1-2 dredgers in the yard, and with BT you go off... Why would you/anyone go there first with the cuts?
Also, what are some specific cards in these matchups that get Claimed or Chained?
I haven't seen Unmask in the board of most ppl's decks. I like it... Is this substituted with Iona, Shield of Emeria for the most part? Combo and Control get this girl out as soon as possible and either win off it, or keep dredging on subsequant (spelling?) turns to add more attack to the group? Is that basically how things play out with Iona?
So, basically tribal matchups and heavy aggro decks (decks w/ Goyf & True-Name Nemesis)?
Thanks again... Keep the SB talk going!!!
-Yawg
Or should I try something using griselbrand and go for the more reanimator-based sb.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
I think this change is even more telling that we should be running Bloodghast. It's better at enabling a turn 2 win, can realistically be played as a bear when graveyard hate hits play, and incentivises us to play a copy of Life from the Loam. I can tell from experience that getting back multiple Cephalid Coliseums is a blowout.
Also, those extra Dread Return targets you're running would probably be better served as a couple extra lands. Dredge can make good use of even up to three lands (flashback Faithless Looting) so getting a hand with multiple lands is perfectly fine. Getting a hand with none is almost always a mulligan.
I think we should be running something very close to this moving forward:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
18
3 Bloodghast
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4
4 Bridge from Below
19
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
1 Life from the Loam
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
Another benefit of having slightly more lands is the ability to play 2cmc hate out of the board, like Ethersworn Canonist, which is a beast.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Creatures (27)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nether Shadow
1 Memory's Journey
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Dread Return
I've been Fishbowling constantly with this, and I like the 1 Grisel in the main for when you have a lot dredging, but you just can't hit that win... You dump 1 Dread Return, and 1 Grisel and you can pretty much mill the rest of your deck and hit the win. I've even had 2 Bridges in the yard, an Imp/Tribe and a Narco in play, sac one for a Therapy, sac the 2 Zombies and the Imp to return Grisel and finished the combo... The reason for 3 Thugs in the main: I'm tired of going for a dredge (like with Looting) with a Grave-Troll in the yard and not flipping a second dang dredger. I wanted another dredger in the deck to consistently hit multiple dredgers... and it's just my preference. Also, when I get my 4 LED, I'll replace the Tribes and most likely another card. The reason for 3 Tribes is that I need to hit 1 discard outlet, and having 4 and 4 Imps / Tribes was getting silly.
And as for the SB:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nether Shadow
1 Memory's Journey
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Dread Return
Some thoughts behind my choices:
Memory's Journey and Nether Shadow are there for the ppl who attack specific targets in the yard. Narcomoeba & Ichorid and Bridge from Below itself... Please tell me if my thought process is faulty
FotH and Dread Return are to convert the deck. If someone is going for an anti attack (Elephant Grass) tactic, this can be subbed in for the Griselbrand & FKZ route.
The rest of the Sb was just taken from other ppls SBs. Again, I don't have a meta to go off of.
Any critiques would be appreciated. Thanks again.
-Yawg
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
How is working for you: 12 lands and 3 Faithless Looting (8 rainbow lands to cast it) ?
Don't forget Memory's Journey can also be used as anti-graveyard on your opponent (reanimator, 42 lands, etc)
I like putting two Leyline of Sanctity in my sideboard because in my meta many players play storm and the only way I can beat them is to go off faster without getting hit by their duress. It's also a good sideboard against Grindstone or Helm of Obedience combo which is very present in my meta.
BTW, I run 4 Lootings, not 3, but I get your question...
It's not so much a problem with color. It's more a problem with having 12 lands. I'm trying to test out 14 lands. With 3 Careful Study and 4 Breakthrough, I'm able to hit SOMETHING to allow me to draw and pitch. The problem comes after I shuffle the heck out of the deck and draw a land on turn 4...
If I open up with at least a land, I'm pretty good, and 2 lands is great. Yes there are times I open with 2 Coliseums and have an Imp, Tribe, dredger and 2 Lootings in my opener, and yes, super annoying. In that case, usually I hold a card, pitch the dredger, hope to hit another on the next turns dredge, and try and hit threshold for the coliseum. But that's risky.
I'm looking to add another rainbow land or two. The list is tight though...
-Yawg