Yeah I'm sure it's back in this thread multiple times, but I guess the time to read thru this thread takes more time than some people have.
I like Macabre more than Leyline, it's more synergistic with the deck in general, but Leyline does wonders Reanimator (which I find is one of our poorer matchups)
So I went along to my local for a fairly normal Legacy night, went 2-2 with a bye to help organisers sort out a few things.
UW Miracles 1-2, R-Burn 2-1, Jund Mid-range 2-0, Grixis Tempo 1-2.
Pretty typical list with 13 lands, 3 Wraith, 2 Imp, 3 Breakthru, 1 Dread Return (no dedicated target), 3x Ichorid
My side was 2x Ashen Rider, 2x Rainbow Lands, 1x Dread Return, 2x Abrupt Decay, 3x Firestorm, 1x Iona, Shield of Emeria, 4x Nature's Claim
I felt like I was missing Putrid Imp a bit so I'll include more in future.
I included the Decays on a whim as I decided to skimp on Faerie Macabre, but these could have easily been Wear//Tear, which I may get in future as they're a bit more flexible with a C-Coliseum on the field. Decay was good, but the mana requirement screwed me twice...
All these new red burn spells that exile the creature really do nerf our Icky's, I'm thinking 4x Icky might be necessary.
I haven't faced Burn for a while, and I feel that deck has gotten a lot stronger.
I was pretty lucky to win given he had me just about dead by turn 3-4 every game. Although the game I lost (game1) I'd had him pretty much nailed down to 4 life from the beginning of his turn3 after I combo'd out on turn1, somehow he manages to pull out Ensnaring Bridge and get there. I used to feel pretty confident against Burn, now I'm not so sure!
I agree with you realizing how good PImp still is. It's sad to see that so many people don't play it at all any more...
I've never run my dredge deck against a human opponent without some of them, for exactly the reasons you give.
I'm thinking I want to keep Wraith I'll probably swap the numbers around for a 3 Pimp, 2 Wraith split.
Also, AD doesn't hit Leyline and random stuff like Humility, Moat and every other 4+ mana card that can sometimes simply be nice to get rid of.
Exactly, decay is stellar when it works, and I have to be fair it's rare when we care about a 4cmc+ non-creature-perm, but when we're cold to a strategy it's not fun.
I think I'll be running a mix of claim & wear/tear in future.
...and now we have the full spoiler for Commander 2015, it looks like we have zero must-have playables. Oh well.
I played on Thursday night at my store and ended up 2-2 this time. Not too bad, though I was shocked to lose to the two opponents I lost to. I won the matches I expected to lose and lost the matches I expected to win.
Round 2: 2-1 against Shardless BUG
I took game three against a Deathrite Shaman and two Nihil Spellbomb. I was so proud, haha.
Round 3: 1-2 against Death and Taxes
I lost game 2 even after an impressive comeback from Rest in Peace. Game 3 just went too slow for me and flying Batterskull got me.
Round 4: 2-1 against Enchantress
I fully expected to lose against Elephant Grass and his 11 mainboard buddies, but I somehow pulled it off. Cabal Therapy is so good.
I added a second Putrid Imp and thought it was at least a little helpful. I am considering testing 4 again, so I'm sure that'll make you fans out there happy! On a side note, I have almost always played 4 Ichorid, and never more than 2 Imps (aside from some testing with 4).
Well said! You have certainly convinced me to refresh my testing with four Putrid Imp.
While I disagree that our Imps or Tribes are like a free Narcomoeba, because they cost mana and a free Narcomoeba does not, they certainly have a lot of value once in play.
I love my Putrid Imps. They've won me a lot more games then they've lost me. Hitting in for an extra 2 damage a turn has meant the difference between victory and defeat plenty of times. I currently run 3 in my deck and 90% of the time I'd rather play out an Imp turn 1 than a looting or study
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I am one of those people who haven't built their deck correctly! I haven't played magic since Rise of Eldrazi, and only got back in to the game 2 months ago. I still have my old legacy dredge deck but I think it's pretty out of date and far from optimal dredge. At the time I was playing, it was the cool thing to run bloodghast instead of ichorid, the theory being it was more resilient or something, or it was easier to activate the landfall triggers to bring it back. I don't remember why.
Anyways, there's a big legacy tournament at the LGS this weekend where the top 10 all get a revised dual land of their choice (first place chooses first, then second, then third etc etc
Anyways, here's my deck. I don't really know the legacy meta right now. Any tips or advice on what to add or take out will help! I have an Iona and Ray of Revelation in my sideboard but that's it. I have no idea where the rest of my sideboard went I have 3 ichorids and can replace the bloodghasts with them if you think it will be better.
Is dredge dead? It seems impossible to go against Rest in Peace/Force Field backed up by counter support but maybe there are ways.
I think it is pretty much agreed upon that Ichorid is better than Bloodghast because you don't want to have to rely on Landfall to get your creatures swinging. Also, Ichorid always has haste and can attack the turn it comes in, also he sacrifices himself, often giving you a couple Zombies. Finally, if you take Bloodghast out you don't have to worry about the extra planning that Undiscovered Paradise requires.
Rest in Peace is a pain in the butt, but by no means is it unbeatable. In a perfect world you just win on turn 1 or 2 before they can play Rest in Peace. In an imperfect, and far more common, world you just have to dredge with pace instead of playing all-in. Once you see the Rest in Peace you have to kill it with a sideboard card like Nature's Claim or Abrupt Decay and then restart your dredge engine with something like Putrid Imp or a looting spell.
I'm not considered the Dredge expert here, but I'm sure we'll see a reply from one of the other guys who can give you more good advice. If you have any questions feel free! I like talking about my favorite deck.
LED dredge was a thing, but for some reason back then everyone decided it was suboptimal compared to Bloodghast/Ichorid dredge. Ideally I'd want to play LED dredge. I have valuble stuff I'd be willing to trade for LEDs but I have never ran in to anyone who has them or wants to trade the ones they have.
I'd buy in to them but hardly anyone plays legacy in my area and I don't travel for big tournaments so it would be $250 spent on cards that I rarely use.
Are there any recent articles I can read with newer dredge lists+strategy? I don't think I'll win this tourney but Legacy used to be my favorite format and I'd love to get back in to it.
Yeah, it seems that by now everyone agrees that LED Dredge is the best way to build.
You can always play online through Cockatrice or XMage for free (I prefer XMage), or Magic Online if you prefer to play that way. I completely understand not wanting to spend money on expensive cards if you won't get to use them often.
The best article I know of is The Dark Art of Dredge Fu, which I believe is the typical "where to start" read for Dredge players. It's a bit dated being from 2011, but a lot of the principles apply still.
With 12 gold lands it is a lot easier to cast enabler/draw spells.
Game 2-3 it also helps to cast answer to hate.
Why no dread returns maindeck or LEDs? Are you not aiming to combo out in game 1?
Just as a more general question, how come most dredge players are back on the LED train? Back when I was playing a lot more 5 years ago the concensus was that LED dredge was cool but all LED did was speed up a deck that was already quicker than most. When did people start playing LED again?
For example, in the Art of Dredge Fu article, the author says this:
Lion's Eye Diamond is worse. It speeds up a deck that hardly ever loses due to slowness and in return makes it more draw-dependent and vulnerable to basically every kind of disruption that is not Mental Misstep. Put another way it fixes what ain't broke and then introduces real problems.
This is the same thing that was generally agreed upon back when I was playing. When did people start coming back around to LED and what are the advantages?
Its still viable for small tournaments but not really for anything major like a SCG Open or GP. Typically you just replaced the LEDS with Tireless Tribe, Gitaxian Probe, or Street Wraith
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Unless you don't want to get the LEDs for budget reasons I would say play them. They give you more ways to discard cards, an easy flashback for Faithless Looting, and they give jumpy opponents something to counter (so at least they won't counter your Dread Return or Breakthrough).
In other news, here is the list I played last night. It was a small night so I only got to play five games total. Overall I was really disappointed because I didn't get to cast one Putrid Imp the whole night. I wanted to try some different numbers, so if anyone thinks it looks super weird don't worry, I'm just trying some stuff out.
Why no dread returns maindeck or LEDs? Are you not aiming to combo out in game 1?
Like Izor on this page I prefer to play the discard Dorks (Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe)
instead of the LEDs. I also prefer to play a total of 16 lands. It helps a lot casting all the enablers and card drawers and also the response
to hate in postboard games.
I don't like dread return as it is a winmore card.
It is dead in the starting hand as it doesn't start the dredge engine.
All we need in game 1 is a recuring ichorid with a bridge or two in the yard.
The board presence then grows quite fast, probably faster than the opponent's.
No need to dread return when you are generating 2-3 zombies a turn and tearing apart the
opponent's hand with therapy.
I play a Dread Return package in the sideboard but I don't use it often,
I used to play a Quadlaser build with LED but I don't play that anymore.
Gold lands and discard dork made the cut for me. I found out that I was always swaping the LED's for gold lands in post board games so
I cut them from the main.
As for my results with the deck, I toped 8 in some 50 and 100 men tournement with my LEDless build in the last two years.
I have no experience in a SCG open or tournament larger than 100 players. I have no idea if the build would deliver
in larger tournament.
Understand that a lot of players may disagree with me on what I just said and that's perfectly fine and they might be right.
I have been testing and tweaking the list a few tournaments last month. Hopefully, I do well this weekend as well. Legacy tournaments are not as popular as it was a few years ago in my country.
That's great! Are you looking for advice on your list? There is at least one thing I could suggest if you haven't tried it yet.
Anyway, could you tell me how your testing has been going? I haven't played with a Flayer of the Hatebound since I used to play Manaless Dredge back in the day. Your deck looks more combo-focused than mine, which is a version I'm always curious about.
I'm always open to suggestions. My list is leaning towards combo compared to the lists that I see online. I had some success with a similar list in the past (-1 City of Brass +1 Griselbrand) but I felt that adding gold lands helps with the mulligans. I then tried a list with FKZ, Griselbrand, 2 Dread Returns, and the 13th land but I seldom won with hasty zombies so I decided to go back to Flayer of the Hatebound because it gives me another angle of attack since I can also win without a lethal zombie army.
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-Anonymous
I like Macabre more than Leyline, it's more synergistic with the deck in general, but Leyline does wonders Reanimator (which I find is one of our poorer matchups)
UW Miracles 1-2, R-Burn 2-1, Jund Mid-range 2-0, Grixis Tempo 1-2.
Pretty typical list with 13 lands, 3 Wraith, 2 Imp, 3 Breakthru, 1 Dread Return (no dedicated target), 3x Ichorid
My side was 2x Ashen Rider, 2x Rainbow Lands, 1x Dread Return, 2x Abrupt Decay, 3x Firestorm, 1x Iona, Shield of Emeria, 4x Nature's Claim
I felt like I was missing Putrid Imp a bit so I'll include more in future.
I included the Decays on a whim as I decided to skimp on Faerie Macabre, but these could have easily been Wear//Tear, which I may get in future as they're a bit more flexible with a C-Coliseum on the field. Decay was good, but the mana requirement screwed me twice...
All these new red burn spells that exile the creature really do nerf our Icky's, I'm thinking 4x Icky might be necessary.
I haven't faced Burn for a while, and I feel that deck has gotten a lot stronger.
I was pretty lucky to win given he had me just about dead by turn 3-4 every game. Although the game I lost (game1) I'd had him pretty much nailed down to 4 life from the beginning of his turn3 after I combo'd out on turn1, somehow he manages to pull out Ensnaring Bridge and get there. I used to feel pretty confident against Burn, now I'm not so sure!
I've never run my dredge deck against a human opponent without some of them, for exactly the reasons you give.
I'm thinking I want to keep Wraith I'll probably swap the numbers around for a 3 Pimp, 2 Wraith split.
Exactly, decay is stellar when it works, and I have to be fair it's rare when we care about a 4cmc+ non-creature-perm, but when we're cold to a strategy it's not fun.
I think I'll be running a mix of claim & wear/tear in future.
...and now we have the full spoiler for Commander 2015, it looks like we have zero must-have playables. Oh well.
Round 1: 1-2 against Reanimator
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite was just bad for me.
Round 2: 2-1 against Shardless BUG
I took game three against a Deathrite Shaman and two Nihil Spellbomb. I was so proud, haha.
Round 3: 1-2 against Death and Taxes
I lost game 2 even after an impressive comeback from Rest in Peace. Game 3 just went too slow for me and flying Batterskull got me.
Round 4: 2-1 against Enchantress
I fully expected to lose against Elephant Grass and his 11 mainboard buddies, but I somehow pulled it off. Cabal Therapy is so good.
I added a second Putrid Imp and thought it was at least a little helpful. I am considering testing 4 again, so I'm sure that'll make you fans out there happy! On a side note, I have almost always played 4 Ichorid, and never more than 2 Imps (aside from some testing with 4).
While I disagree that our Imps or Tribes are like a free Narcomoeba, because they cost mana and a free Narcomoeba does not, they certainly have a lot of value once in play.
-Anonymous
I'm excited to try four tomorrow night!
What is your current build?
I'm a big fan of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe
Here's what I'm playing at the moment :
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from below
Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 Ashen Rider
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sphinx of lost Truths
2 Dread Return
2 Chain of vapor
1 Darkblast
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
With 12 gold lands it is a lot easier to cast enabler/draw spells.
Game 2-3 it also helps to cast answer to hate.
Anyways, there's a big legacy tournament at the LGS this weekend where the top 10 all get a revised dual land of their choice (first place chooses first, then second, then third etc etc
Anyways, here's my deck. I don't really know the legacy meta right now. Any tips or advice on what to add or take out will help! I have an Iona and Ray of Revelation in my sideboard but that's it. I have no idea where the rest of my sideboard went I have 3 ichorids and can replace the bloodghasts with them if you think it will be better.
Is dredge dead? It seems impossible to go against Rest in Peace/Force Field backed up by counter support but maybe there are ways.
3 Golgari Thugs
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Is there a way I can watch matches from the recent Legacy GP in Seattle? I want to see what the metagame is like now.
Is dredge dead or does it still have a place in the top tier of legacy?
I think it is pretty much agreed upon that Ichorid is better than Bloodghast because you don't want to have to rely on Landfall to get your creatures swinging. Also, Ichorid always has haste and can attack the turn it comes in, also he sacrifices himself, often giving you a couple Zombies. Finally, if you take Bloodghast out you don't have to worry about the extra planning that Undiscovered Paradise requires.
Rest in Peace is a pain in the butt, but by no means is it unbeatable. In a perfect world you just win on turn 1 or 2 before they can play Rest in Peace. In an imperfect, and far more common, world you just have to dredge with pace instead of playing all-in. Once you see the Rest in Peace you have to kill it with a sideboard card like Nature's Claim or Abrupt Decay and then restart your dredge engine with something like Putrid Imp or a looting spell.
Two newer cards which you may not have seen are Faithless Looting and Mana Confluence. I'm not sure if Lion's Eye Diamond Dredge was a thing back when you played before, but LED + Faithless Looting is really good.
I'm not considered the Dredge expert here, but I'm sure we'll see a reply from one of the other guys who can give you more good advice. If you have any questions feel free! I like talking about my favorite deck.
I'd buy in to them but hardly anyone plays legacy in my area and I don't travel for big tournaments so it would be $250 spent on cards that I rarely use.
Are there any recent articles I can read with newer dredge lists+strategy? I don't think I'll win this tourney but Legacy used to be my favorite format and I'd love to get back in to it.
You can always play online through Cockatrice or XMage for free (I prefer XMage), or Magic Online if you prefer to play that way. I completely understand not wanting to spend money on expensive cards if you won't get to use them often.
The best article I know of is The Dark Art of Dredge Fu, which I believe is the typical "where to start" read for Dredge players. It's a bit dated being from 2011, but a lot of the principles apply still.
A lot of lists run Abrupt Decay for this reason.
And yeah, not dead. I feel like I should be quoting Monty Pythons' The Holy Grail....
Why no dread returns maindeck or LEDs? Are you not aiming to combo out in game 1?
Just as a more general question, how come most dredge players are back on the LED train? Back when I was playing a lot more 5 years ago the concensus was that LED dredge was cool but all LED did was speed up a deck that was already quicker than most. When did people start playing LED again?
For example, in the Art of Dredge Fu article, the author says this:
This is the same thing that was generally agreed upon back when I was playing. When did people start coming back around to LED and what are the advantages?
Faithless Looting got printed. I don't think there's much more to say...
Is non-LED dredge still putting up competitive results or has it gone the way of the dodo?
-Anonymous
Unless you don't want to get the LEDs for budget reasons I would say play them. They give you more ways to discard cards, an easy flashback for Faithless Looting, and they give jumpy opponents something to counter (so at least they won't counter your Dread Return or Breakthrough).
In other news, here is the list I played last night. It was a small night so I only got to play five games total. Overall I was really disappointed because I didn't get to cast one Putrid Imp the whole night. I wanted to try some different numbers, so if anyone thinks it looks super weird don't worry, I'm just trying some stuff out.
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
(17 Mana)
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Lotus Petal
2 Pithing Needle
2 Memory's Journey
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
Like Izor on this page I prefer to play the discard Dorks (Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe)
instead of the LEDs. I also prefer to play a total of 16 lands. It helps a lot casting all the enablers and card drawers and also the response
to hate in postboard games.
I don't like dread return as it is a winmore card.
It is dead in the starting hand as it doesn't start the dredge engine.
All we need in game 1 is a recuring ichorid with a bridge or two in the yard.
The board presence then grows quite fast, probably faster than the opponent's.
No need to dread return when you are generating 2-3 zombies a turn and tearing apart the
opponent's hand with therapy.
I play a Dread Return package in the sideboard but I don't use it often,
I used to play a Quadlaser build with LED but I don't play that anymore.
Gold lands and discard dork made the cut for me. I found out that I was always swaping the LED's for gold lands in post board games so
I cut them from the main.
As for my results with the deck, I toped 8 in some 50 and 100 men tournement with my LEDless build in the last two years.
I have no experience in a SCG open or tournament larger than 100 players. I have no idea if the build would deliver
in larger tournament.
Understand that a lot of players may disagree with me on what I just said and that's perfectly fine and they might be right.
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
Creatures:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Lands:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I have been testing and tweaking the list a few tournaments last month. Hopefully, I do well this weekend as well. Legacy tournaments are not as popular as it was a few years ago in my country.
Anyway, could you tell me how your testing has been going? I haven't played with a Flayer of the Hatebound since I used to play Manaless Dredge back in the day. Your deck looks more combo-focused than mine, which is a version I'm always curious about.