Played in a small local tourney over the weekend because I thought that post-DTT, this deck would be solid.
Unfortunately, it's the exact same as I remember. The problem seems to me like, while we play a bunch of powerful cards, they don't... DO anything. It's wildly inconsistent.
Also, probably should have known that my meta is saturated with Lands, which our deck folds to, hard. That was probably the biggest issue
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Null Rod
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scrubland
I have to say, I really, really like this list. The only thing that strikes me as a possible mistake is the lack of Thoughtseize in the mainboard. But it could be a meta call. Obviously it was right for the tournament. I like the consistent plan and numbers. I also think 2 basics and one Tar Pit are the correct numbers for the manabase.
If you expect a fair meta game, running zero thoughtseizes seems smart and cleary it worked out well for him. Im personally not a fan of 3x baleful strix, seems like cutting one makes room for one thoughtseize if you so desire, but what else would you cut?
Another note, I think the need to splash white for meddling mage is gone. I was never a fan of this strategy in the first place, but i can see why people tried it. Omni tell was such a horrid matchup. Naming show and tell with a meddling mage was one of the few things we could do to stop them. Now that Dig Through Time is gone, i fully expect that deck to fall off a cliff. Im not saying its not good against other things, but that 4th color can be rather awkwark at times...
I am a huge fan of massacre currently. it takes care of TNN in the esper decks, and completely hoses death and taxes. My sideboard looks liek this:
2 disfigure
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
2 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Arcane Laboratory
Note: I am currently running 2/1 split thoughtsieze/hymn to tourach in the main.
With Miracles turning into Mentor Miracles, I think Massacre isn't such a bad choice and I'd be willing to try it as a replacing one copy of Toxic Deluge. I tried a similar split of two to one; Hymn to Thoughtseize and to be honest I never really saw any of discard when I needed it. I think that if I'm going to keep discard main, I either have to keep it at four, or eliminate it. I will try four Hymn at my next event and see how that goes, but I think I will change it over to Liliana increased numbers. Liliana just has more modes and isn't as bad of a top deck as any discard.
Today was three rounds and it just wasn't a good day for me. I mulled nearly every game, probably because I just didn't see a hand I could work with and I lost every die roll, but the first. First match was against a midrange Affinity list utilizing Black Vise. Definitely an interesting deck. I lost game one by Ethersworn Canonist keeping my hand from emptying fast enough, and Vise killing me fast after Days Undoikg being cast. I definitely wasn't prepared for something like that as a pilot, but it felt very winnable. In this, I took out Forces and brought in Spellbomb, Extraction, Jitte, Nullrod. I've always felt like bringing Rod in with artifact cards was a bad choice, and it certainly was. After hitting Rod off of a Cascade, I promptly drew Spellbomb and Jitte. Any help with this would be much appreciated.
Second match was lost by at least three misplays against Infect. Game one I mana screwed myself by fetching a Sea instead of Bayou. As a result, I couldn't cast any of the four green cards in my hand that would have given me a fighting chance. Game two was one on the back of Goyf beats with Deathrite activations. Game three I mulled to five and lost on turn three. In this match up, I brought out Jace, a Goyf, a Vision for Jitte, Clique, Hymn, Thoughtseize.
Third match was against Mentor Miracles. This match up has changed I feel from your traditional Miracles. I lost game one after a good long grind and Mentor going nuts with Top activations. Game two I destroyed him after Goyf beats and eventual Shaman activations. This match came to a draw. I feel that if it were to keep playing out, I would have beaten him, but we were both just slow pilots.
Right now, I am changing Thoughtseize from the main to the side and moving Hymn from the board to main. I think this will be proper now that Dig is gone. I think I will be taking Clique out from the side and possibly putting a second Disfigure in. Not entirely sure why, but I know I'm not entirely happy with Clique. I have only castes it once though, so I could be wrong. Might actually put Massacre in in Clique's place. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Has anyone played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? I'm reading reports from non-Shardless players that he's a beating. Not sure how I feel about it.
I played him this weekend in St. Louis over the 4th Ancestral Visions. He was decent, but not outstanding. There were two instances where I couldn't flip him due to conflicts with Jace the Mind Sculptor. I don't think he cost me any games. Flashing back Abrupt Decay is sweet. In 15 rounds, he never netted me more than 1 loot + 1 flashback.
I sided him out against combo, as he's too slow to be impactful, and I'd rather put down a clock or Hymn on turn 2. I really only wanted him in the fair matchups, and several of those are decks with Karakas, so he has gets sided out. Against Jund, I'd rather have the 4th Visions since you can't bolt/punishing fire a visions. That really only leaves him doing solid work in the mirror and against Delver. For me, that just wasn't enough to justify the conflicts with JtMS, so he won't be making the cut in the future.
Also, Meddling Mage wasn't worth the wasted sideboard slot for Scrubland. I'll be passing on those next time as well in favor of more countermagic, despite it's conflict with cascade triggers.
Private Mod Note
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I talked with a couple of people over the weekend about using more counter spells in the side and siding out Shardless Agent to become a more control deck. It sounds like a solid plan to help shore up combo, which this deck is extremely soft to.
I have entirely cut out my T1 discard as well for more Hymns. I love that card, and am trying to find room for a fourth in the main. I'm unsure about counterspells, because I tend to think of us as a tap-out deck, though if it's combo we are after, then I could totally see a playset of Flusterstorms coming in over Shardless. I've tested flip Jace and he's pretty decent. Surprisingly useful defensively, good card filtering, and flashback is solid. Often is the target of removal, but whatcha going to do. I also am not a fan of meddling mage.
I picked up this deck for the first time for GP SeaTac and really enjoyed it. I finished 42nd out of 2014. This is the list I ran:
Main deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Disfigure
2 Chill
1 Null Rod
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
I had the privilege of recently getting access to some money and I can finally play this deck! Or almost, because Tarmogoyf adds like $500 to the cost, haha. Anyways, I hope we can have some discussion and tournament reports coming up soon because I see this thread is fairly slow.
@EricEMBrown, thank you for sharing your article! I enjoyed reading it even though you were kind of disappointed about how the tournament went. Going 11-4 is still a great record in my opinion.
Here's a question for anyone with more experience than myself: why is Toxic Deluge so good? It seems like most of the time you will have to kill your creatures to kill your opponent's creatures. Besides that, 3 mana and X life seems like a steep cost to me. Why not play something like Drown in Sorrow or even Shrivel?
I understand it has the potential to kill bigger creatures, but Drown in Sorrow could also easily clear out Elves and leave your own big creature alive. One of the biggest problems I have with Toxic Deluge is that you have to basically take as much damage from the creatures as you would from an attack in order to kill them. If your opponent has a bunch of creatures you're probably low on life anyways, how can paying more life even be feasible?
Anyway, I don't want to seem like I think I know better than people who have been playing this deck a long time, these are just my concerns. I have been testing Drown in Sorrow to great results so far and am curious if anyone else has tried it. Thanks for your response, Naabi.
First: I don't want to leave the OP neglected, so expect an update in a little while. This Autumn has been very busy for me, though, so I haven't had the time or the energy to spare on this task. But after this week, the bulk of this year's work will have been done, leaving me with more time to do stuff like this. I'm going to a Legacy GP next year, which also means I have some amount of incentive to practice with this deck seriously in the coming months.
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on Drown in Sorrow: this card is, I think, too weak because it simply doesn't kill enough things. You can't use it to clear away Nimble Mongoose, Gurmag Angler, Serra Avenger, Tarmogoyf, Germ tokens, Angel tokens, Monastery Mentor, pumped up Infect creatures, etc, and that is a considerable drawback. That said, I am not as much of a fan of Toxic Deluge as many Shardless players seem to be; I usually only play one in the board, with many others running multiple, including a maindeck copy.
I've also been testing against Merfolk because I need to work on the matchup and I only felt one thing towards Drown in Sorrow, "Man, I really wish I had more of these." If the Merfolk player has a bunch of lords out what have you been doing with all your removal spells, pitching them to Force of Will?
Anyone see the Denver decklists? It looks like a lot of people have moved away from maelstrom pulse. Some run a disfigure main. Others runs multiple thoughtseize main. How do you feel about having that many turn 1 plays? Thoughtseize, death right and visions?
I would personally much rather do something proactive on the first turn of game one. That's why we run Force of Will, right?
Still, having more probability of a turn one play is always good and, of course, Thoughtseize is great. I don't see much reason to not run the Maelstrom Pulse, though.
Been a little while, but I wanted to make good on my promise to update the primer. I'm doing so now, and adding a matchup section. A sideboard section should also show up at some point soon, I'm hoping.
Anyway, I played in a local Legacy event on Saturday - the first event in a tournament series called the Norwegian Legacy Masters, with 16 qualifier tournaments followed by an invitation-only finals tournament with especially good prizes. 40 players participated.
Round 1 - U/R Delver - Loss. Price of Progress really got me; the version I showed up with didn't have any basics, so this felt like an unusually difficult Delver matchup. Round 2 - Elves - Win. Hymn to Tourach took away his two last cards (and his two finishers) in game 1, and my assorted removal spells and Tarmogoyf cleaned up. I lost game 2, but Engineered Plague showed up for game 3. Round 3 - 4C Loam - Win. Opponent showed up with a game loss due to a deck registration error, and I won the first and only game really quickly thanks to a trio of particularly angry Tarmogoyfs. Round 4 - Zombies - Win. I manascrewed and lost to an assortment of Lingering Souls and Bloodghasts in game one (though Deathrite Shaman was close to going all the way). With more graveyard hate, Disfigures, Engineered Plague, and a Life from the Loam working overtime, I won the next two games fairly easily. Round 5 - Esper Stoneblade - Win. I felt really well positioned in this match, with Ancestral Vision being terrific, all my creatures being better than his, pretty much, and strong planeswalkers to wrap up the late game. I won 2-0 quite easily, though I was helped by his manascrew in game 2 (assisted by my Wastelands). Round 6 - Miracles - ID. Drew with one of my best friends, and we played a few games of pack wars... Quarterfinal - Imperial Painter - Win. A really tough matchup, but some well-timed Forces and Abrupt Decays managed to win me games 2 and 3 (I conceded the first game on turn 2, after he went turn 1 Blood Moon into turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker for my Deathrite Shaman). He took enough damage from his Ancient Tomb that I was able to go aggro with Deathrite Shaman, though his Pia and Kiran Nalaar was close to turning things in his favor in game 2. Semifinal - Miracles - Loss. A very close 3-game match against a good friend (and good player); ultimately, it came down to him wisely floating a Jace on top of his deck in game 3, not exposing it to discard, and managed to land it and protect it.
I was reasonably satisfied with the deck, but it's possible I should return to playing that one basic; Price of Progress is just really brutal if you're on 0.
Unfortunately, it's the exact same as I remember. The problem seems to me like, while we play a bunch of powerful cards, they don't... DO anything. It's wildly inconsistent.
Also, probably should have known that my meta is saturated with Lands, which our deck folds to, hard. That was probably the biggest issue
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58122
Maindeck:
Artifact Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Null Rod
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scrubland
I have to say, I really, really like this list. The only thing that strikes me as a possible mistake is the lack of Thoughtseize in the mainboard. But it could be a meta call. Obviously it was right for the tournament. I like the consistent plan and numbers. I also think 2 basics and one Tar Pit are the correct numbers for the manabase.
Another note, I think the need to splash white for meddling mage is gone. I was never a fan of this strategy in the first place, but i can see why people tried it. Omni tell was such a horrid matchup. Naming show and tell with a meddling mage was one of the few things we could do to stop them. Now that Dig Through Time is gone, i fully expect that deck to fall off a cliff. Im not saying its not good against other things, but that 4th color can be rather awkwark at times...
I am a huge fan of massacre currently. it takes care of TNN in the esper decks, and completely hoses death and taxes. My sideboard looks liek this:
2 disfigure
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
2 Duress
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Arcane Laboratory
Note: I am currently running 2/1 split thoughtsieze/hymn to tourach in the main.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
Today was three rounds and it just wasn't a good day for me. I mulled nearly every game, probably because I just didn't see a hand I could work with and I lost every die roll, but the first. First match was against a midrange Affinity list utilizing Black Vise. Definitely an interesting deck. I lost game one by Ethersworn Canonist keeping my hand from emptying fast enough, and Vise killing me fast after Days Undoikg being cast. I definitely wasn't prepared for something like that as a pilot, but it felt very winnable. In this, I took out Forces and brought in Spellbomb, Extraction, Jitte, Nullrod. I've always felt like bringing Rod in with artifact cards was a bad choice, and it certainly was. After hitting Rod off of a Cascade, I promptly drew Spellbomb and Jitte. Any help with this would be much appreciated.
Second match was lost by at least three misplays against Infect. Game one I mana screwed myself by fetching a Sea instead of Bayou. As a result, I couldn't cast any of the four green cards in my hand that would have given me a fighting chance. Game two was one on the back of Goyf beats with Deathrite activations. Game three I mulled to five and lost on turn three. In this match up, I brought out Jace, a Goyf, a Vision for Jitte, Clique, Hymn, Thoughtseize.
Third match was against Mentor Miracles. This match up has changed I feel from your traditional Miracles. I lost game one after a good long grind and Mentor going nuts with Top activations. Game two I destroyed him after Goyf beats and eventual Shaman activations. This match came to a draw. I feel that if it were to keep playing out, I would have beaten him, but we were both just slow pilots.
My list:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Vendilion Clique
Right now, I am changing Thoughtseize from the main to the side and moving Hymn from the board to main. I think this will be proper now that Dig is gone. I think I will be taking Clique out from the side and possibly putting a second Disfigure in. Not entirely sure why, but I know I'm not entirely happy with Clique. I have only castes it once though, so I could be wrong. Might actually put Massacre in in Clique's place. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
I played him this weekend in St. Louis over the 4th Ancestral Visions. He was decent, but not outstanding. There were two instances where I couldn't flip him due to conflicts with Jace the Mind Sculptor. I don't think he cost me any games. Flashing back Abrupt Decay is sweet. In 15 rounds, he never netted me more than 1 loot + 1 flashback.
I sided him out against combo, as he's too slow to be impactful, and I'd rather put down a clock or Hymn on turn 2. I really only wanted him in the fair matchups, and several of those are decks with Karakas, so he has gets sided out. Against Jund, I'd rather have the 4th Visions since you can't bolt/punishing fire a visions. That really only leaves him doing solid work in the mirror and against Delver. For me, that just wasn't enough to justify the conflicts with JtMS, so he won't be making the cut in the future.
Also, Meddling Mage wasn't worth the wasted sideboard slot for Scrubland. I'll be passing on those next time as well in favor of more countermagic, despite it's conflict with cascade triggers.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I picked up this deck for the first time for GP SeaTac and really enjoyed it. I finished 42nd out of 2014. This is the list I ran:
Main deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Disfigure
2 Chill
1 Null Rod
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
I wrote about some of the things I learned during the tournament in this article
https://ericembrown.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/a-tale-of-two-tournaments/
Please let me know what you think
Eric
I had the privilege of recently getting access to some money and I can finally play this deck! Or almost, because Tarmogoyf adds like $500 to the cost, haha. Anyways, I hope we can have some discussion and tournament reports coming up soon because I see this thread is fairly slow.
@EricEMBrown, thank you for sharing your article! I enjoyed reading it even though you were kind of disappointed about how the tournament went. Going 11-4 is still a great record in my opinion.
Here's a question for anyone with more experience than myself: why is Toxic Deluge so good? It seems like most of the time you will have to kill your creatures to kill your opponent's creatures. Besides that, 3 mana and X life seems like a steep cost to me. Why not play something like Drown in Sorrow or even Shrivel?
Thanks in advance, guys.
Anyway, I don't want to seem like I think I know better than people who have been playing this deck a long time, these are just my concerns. I have been testing Drown in Sorrow to great results so far and am curious if anyone else has tried it. Thanks for your response, Naabi.
Anyway, I just wanted to comment on Drown in Sorrow: this card is, I think, too weak because it simply doesn't kill enough things. You can't use it to clear away Nimble Mongoose, Gurmag Angler, Serra Avenger, Tarmogoyf, Germ tokens, Angel tokens, Monastery Mentor, pumped up Infect creatures, etc, and that is a considerable drawback. That said, I am not as much of a fan of Toxic Deluge as many Shardless players seem to be; I usually only play one in the board, with many others running multiple, including a maindeck copy.
I've also been testing against Merfolk because I need to work on the matchup and I only felt one thing towards Drown in Sorrow, "Man, I really wish I had more of these." If the Merfolk player has a bunch of lords out what have you been doing with all your removal spells, pitching them to Force of Will?
Still, having more probability of a turn one play is always good and, of course, Thoughtseize is great. I don't see much reason to not run the Maelstrom Pulse, though.
Anyway, I played in a local Legacy event on Saturday - the first event in a tournament series called the Norwegian Legacy Masters, with 16 qualifier tournaments followed by an invitation-only finals tournament with especially good prizes. 40 players participated.
Decklist:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Baleful Strix
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
Round 2 - Elves - Win. Hymn to Tourach took away his two last cards (and his two finishers) in game 1, and my assorted removal spells and Tarmogoyf cleaned up. I lost game 2, but Engineered Plague showed up for game 3.
Round 3 - 4C Loam - Win. Opponent showed up with a game loss due to a deck registration error, and I won the first and only game really quickly thanks to a trio of particularly angry Tarmogoyfs.
Round 4 - Zombies - Win. I manascrewed and lost to an assortment of Lingering Souls and Bloodghasts in game one (though Deathrite Shaman was close to going all the way). With more graveyard hate, Disfigures, Engineered Plague, and a Life from the Loam working overtime, I won the next two games fairly easily.
Round 5 - Esper Stoneblade - Win. I felt really well positioned in this match, with Ancestral Vision being terrific, all my creatures being better than his, pretty much, and strong planeswalkers to wrap up the late game. I won 2-0 quite easily, though I was helped by his manascrew in game 2 (assisted by my Wastelands).
Round 6 - Miracles - ID. Drew with one of my best friends, and we played a few games of pack wars...
Quarterfinal - Imperial Painter - Win. A really tough matchup, but some well-timed Forces and Abrupt Decays managed to win me games 2 and 3 (I conceded the first game on turn 2, after he went turn 1 Blood Moon into turn 2 Phyrexian Revoker for my Deathrite Shaman). He took enough damage from his Ancient Tomb that I was able to go aggro with Deathrite Shaman, though his Pia and Kiran Nalaar was close to turning things in his favor in game 2.
Semifinal - Miracles - Loss. A very close 3-game match against a good friend (and good player); ultimately, it came down to him wisely floating a Jace on top of his deck in game 3, not exposing it to discard, and managed to land it and protect it.
I was reasonably satisfied with the deck, but it's possible I should return to playing that one basic; Price of Progress is just really brutal if you're on 0.