I've just recently picked up esper stoneblade and am finding it unbelievably hard to find a current and helpful thread. Does anyone know of a more recent/comprehensive primer? Not that this doesn't have some good info and discussion this thread just seems to be largely abandoned....or it is the archetype? lol
Blade variants (especially Esper) haven't been as popular. And they don't win 1st place often enough for people to be interested. Also, Legacy tournaments don't happen all too often locally and attendance varies by regions and communities. Makes it hard to play and/or write about it. That's what I find anyway.
I still like the deck a ton and try to play from time to time, but don't get the chance to too often because of college, time, and finding an avid group of players. Also, it's kind of an awkward slippery slope, where x number of people don't post, some people will be like, "Well, if no one's posting, no point in talking/I'm gonna go somewhere else." I'm a little guilty of this myself.
Esper built like Tom Martell and Vidi's stock lists are still decent enough to play, but they're a little out of date, so you'd want to mold it some. I know Reid Duke's list (and Charles Gordon's list which is basically Reid's list who made 1st with Esperblade in SCG Open) is a good place to start that's fairly recent. Shaheen Soorani's a die-hard fan of the archetype and very adamant about his Esper build. Though no particularly notable results (he did make like, top 8 though before Khans came out). I think the tools are all there in Esper to work, it's just competent pilots + proper build and sideboard/meta call + some decent luck are necessary to do really well. I know you can technically say that about every deck, but I feel that because Esper is such a "fair" deck even for fair decks that you'd have to play pretty well and pretty hard to win a major event. Not to say the deck is weak; again IMO the deck is solid and all the tools are there. It's just that the meta's changed and adapted quite a bit. As an aside, I enjoyed pre-Khans meta very much and found that Esper was perfectly fine there. Post-Khans (specifically Cruise) felt terrible for Esper though. Now that Cruise is banned and the meta's basically shifted back, I think it could be Esper's time again. I might consider switching back to Esper from Deathblade.
Reid's article.
^His Esperblade list is here. I know it's 2013, but it's a pretty stock list (about as up to date at the time as any). And subsequently, Charles Gordon won 1st Place at SCG Legacy Open 2-3 days later. His list is here: Charles Gordon's list
^In the interview after he won, he said that his list wasn't as good and should've stuck to Reid Duke's list exactly. Though, it was only a few cards different. Decent starting point. Though obviously you'd probably want to think about/incorporate the new stuff since then.
Now, the derivatives of Esper like Deathblade or U/x/x ThopterBlade are all very good too and pretty easy to port the cards around to. And I think this is kinda the true strength of Esperblade is that it can be built in a number of variants that it makes it hard for opponents to pin down exactly what you're running and what you're capable of.
But, I'll try to stop rambling now and give you some links/suggestions to where to go. mtgthesource is pretty dedicated to just Legacy and the older formats. So it's worth checking around there. There's at least two threads there that generates some discussions from time to time. Specifically I'm referring to Deathblade thread and U/W/x Stoneblade. The problem though is that although there's more discussions there, sometimes it's about as dead as here (though not quite as badly; it picks up from time to time). The upside is that there's maybe 2-3 people talking about Thopter-Sword combos in Esper over there. Also, Phillip Schonegger was planning on putting together a team (online) specifically for Esperblade (this was around Cruise meta so during last fall), but I think he postponed it because he was working on Miracles still. No idea if that's still going on. Deathblade mtgthesource thread Esperblade mtgthesource thread Blade Control mtgthesource thread
The only problem with the 3rd link is that because it's General blade control, there will be discussions about other Blade variants.
And there's some lists that are U/W Stoneblade but with Monastery Mentor in them as well. It's possible to try and adopt that strategy for Esperblade.
With that said, I really need to make an account over there... Not that I want to abandon MTGS, but posting privileges would be nice. And also to start play testing legacy more; part of the problem why I haven't said anything for such a long period of time; nothing particularly new to report. lol One last thing, Primer guides themselves seem super dead; no one's updated it. But the contents and discussions are worth a read.
P.S. What I've been doing to stay up to date on Legacy is just to look at either reports or top 8/16's of Legacy tournaments either through mtgtop8.com or starcitygames.com. I'd do more but that's all that time permits.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I've been looking at this deck type for quite a while now. I've read post after post and watched a ton of youtube videos, but I still don't get it. Where does the potency of this deck come from? Is it simply that you can search for and cast Batterskull for very little mana? That seems very underwhelming. Is it the combination of the control elements that make it good (Force of Will, Swords to Plowshare). I've never played this deck, so I'm an outside observer looking in.
I've been looking at this deck type for quite a while now. I've read post after post and watched a ton of youtube videos, but I still don't get it. Where does the potency of this deck come from? Is it simply that you can search for and cast Batterskull for very little mana? That seems very underwhelming. Is it the combination of the control elements that make it good (Force of Will, Swords to Plowshare). I've never played this deck, so I'm an outside observer looking in.
Legacy styles and preferences have definitely changed since this deck was at its prime; these days everyone is trying to be hyper-aggressive/have ultra-slick streamlined card draw consistency engines. Hence why even after Cruise banning, there are quite a number of decks that try to stick to 18 or less lands, while playing massive amounts of cantrips in the form of 4x Brainstorm, xxPonder, xxWhatever fill-in -- be it Thoughtscour, Mental Note, Preordain, etc.
Because of this, I can see why you'd think Stoneblade is weak or rather unappealing. To be honest, some days I look at my deck lists and old lists and even current lists (be it brews OR winning deck lists), and I wonder where the "true engine" is. It's not a particularly proactive list, I'll give you that. The deck was designed to be an aggro-control list (fairly midrange-ish); its prowess is in its ability to have early game answers to try and stumble opponents/halt them off for our midrange power spike in the forms of Stoneforge, Batterskull, and Jace. But it can switch gears and go all-out aggressive with Stoneforge turn 2 immediately into Batterskull turn 3, and then adding more pressure either through Lingering Souls, Jace, or True-Name. Or simply just sitting back and riding B'Skull to victory. Interestingly enough, Batterskull is still quite a very powerful card and a hard card to answer. This is a testament to Batterskull's power level. Of course, "all-out aggression mode" with this deck, I admit, looks rather embarrassing compared to some of the other dedicated fish-style decks in the format (Delver and the ilk). But against those decks, this deck can switch gears and play defensive and hold out till late game where our cards are typically stronger.
Though part of our strength before was running plenty of one-of's like Vindicate and Supreme Verdict that allowed us to have bomb-like comebacks, while using what we back then considered "plenty of ways" to filter (usually just 4x Brainstorm, 1-2x Ponders -- if even that much, then 3x Jace). These days though, I don't quite think it works very well anymore (the specialty one-of's at least; we used to try things like 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Vindicate, 1x Academy Ruins, 1x Creeping Tar Pit (tech/optional), while running 22 lands). These days, if you were to do the 1-of's, it's either relegated to the sideboard, or you're running the minimum of 4x BS, 4x Ponder, then MAYBE 1-2x additional draws like Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Thoughtscour, Mental Note. And then some number of Dig Through Times (2-4x). And after all of that, you would put in the 1-of's. Also you're probably cutting your lands down to 20 or less. That seems to be the style/preference anyway. Admittedly, Dig Through Time really helps the 1-of's deck building should you want to play like that.
These days, the arguments for/against Stoneblade are real odd, as xBlade control lists come in many variations, and because of the versatile nature of building and playing it, sometimes they look really similar to lists that are more dedicated to their role as either aggressor or defender. Jeskai Delver for example looks really similar to Jeskai Stoneblade, since both decks are gonna run the best cards in their color anyway (StP, BS, Bolt, etc.). Then you fill in the rest. And that's either going Delver route with Young Pyromancers. Or you go a little slower and prioritize Stoneforge with True-Name. Maybe still run Young Pyro even though you're not as aggressive anymore. These kinds of overlap blurs the line a little. Then Dig's primary targets will differ some too. Midrangey might still want Jace. And the sideboards will look different accordingly; Stoneblade will play maybe Blood Moon and Baneslayer or whatever else. Whereas Delver will stick to cards that better suit their needs. The other side of the spectrum is that Jeskai Stoneblade looks rather similar to Miracles. Well, somewhat. Both builds' "stock" lists are rather different. But there have been some hybrid lists in the past that draw from one another; BBD's preference with SFM package over Entreat the Angels win-con in Miracles would be one such example. Other people tried Stoneblade with a transformational sideboard into Miracles -- kinda (mostly just for Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, which is kind of a variant of Jeskai-Blade; a more Jeskai Control build than an aggro-control deck).
And that's just an explanation of the color combination of U, W, R. We haven't even delved into Esper (UWB) and Deathblade. Their builds are rather different, even if only by a few small card changes; the primary difference between Esperblade and Deathblade is Deathrite Shaman. But that difference changes things a lot. Esper and Deathblade in particular have very strong access to many of Legacy's finest cards due to the amount of colors they run. And there's a lot of strong sideboard options as well. Esperblade can be and is generally built to be rather grindy (but like all Blade variants, also retains the "fast" starts too). A debate between Lingering Souls and True-Name Nemesis tends to come up; either option works in Esper. Esper a tad better with Souls, as that card is better at beating down on Miracles, especially combined with Black's discard disruption, and Flashback. But both of those cards can be run together, really.
Deathblade is interesting in that it advertises that it can be like other xBlade variants where it can go aggro early, then grind out late like with Jace, Liliana, and B'Skull. But then again, there's a lot of people that feel that Deathblade's true role is to be the aggressor and take advantage of DRS's ramp and continual damage to take a lead early. If that doesn't happen, apparently it falls behind. Personally, although I agree with the notion to some degree, I never really felt out of the game, so long as I'm running Jace, True-Name, and Batterskull. Except against Miracles, I think the match-up might be worse for Deathblade here than Esperblade.
Now, this deck is called "aggro-control," yet it doesn't run much permission. It does seem odd, doesn't it? Plenty of lists kind of just run 4x Force, then maybe a smattering of Pierces here and there and call it a day. Sometimes they put in the 1-of Counterspell. Doesn't "feel" very control-ish at least on paper (Straight U/W is pretty counterspell-heavy though). But I think in practice, it speaks better; some number of discard serves as disruption. And that the deck's control is kind of in its ability to call the shots with its fairly strong and versatile cards; each card themselves are really just hyper-strong efficient cards that opponents would want to answer in a rather quick manner. (SFM, TNN, DRS, Young Pyro, Snapcaster too in some builds). Some blade variants really feels like a "Legacy All-Stars team," where it's a bunch of ultra efficient creatures and value cards.
To touch on one last thing, the appeal of Esperblade (at least in the past) is that its match-up percentage against the field used to be (and to a degree, still is) pretty much 50/50 and can go in either players' favor; you're always at least in the game to some degree, and if you play tight/sideboard well, you can grind out sweet victories.
I guess these days though, most people would rather go in with a plan; either play something more proactive like aggressive Delver decks. Or play aggressively on something like Combo (Elves, SnT, Storm, Reanimator, etc.). Or have an all-in strategy defensively like Miracles (or Lands). And then there's MUD, Painter, etc. Those decks may not have 50/50 match-ups, but their Plan A's are a lot more aggressive and defined. I guess the other thing is if people want to durdle, their thought process might be to just go into the durdle deck with more definitive inevitability (Miracles).
In short, Blade Control is kind of like a Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None archetype. Still a very potent deck that allows a lot of room to tinker with. I think this might simply just be the testament to the cards typically run; one card in particular is Stoneforge Mystic; even though she's a fairly old card now, she has stood the test of time as a significantly strong and stable card. Same goes for Batterskull; it tends to be a rather hard card for people to answer. Either they try to ignore it or go over the top. No matter what, playing against an opposing B'Skull is always a pain to deal with, especially if the Blade Control player has it their way (SFM turn 2, BSkull turn 3). Trust me, it's still a very annoying card to play against regardless of the stage of the game. And Umezawa's Jitte. I haven't talked about that equipment at all, but believe me, it's insane as well. And of course, if you wanted to be cheeky/meta-game/have fun, you can have SFM fetch up any other equipment like Manriki-Gusari and the 5 Mirrodin swords.
Not to say Blade Control is the "best deck" in the format or anything. But it's still a contender and generally overall very resilient; it might not be right at the top as the "premier deck of Legacy" anymore, but it's definitely not dead. The lines of plays in the deck are pretty high, offering a lot of chances to outplay opponents -- be it obviously or subtly. And also because of this, the deck is fun to play with again and again. That's how I feel anyway.
Currently am testing out 19-20 land Monastery Mentor Esperblade. And also messing around with UW Mentor Blade as well. Gonna try and rebuild/test a slightly more "traditional" Esperblade sometime later. Also, saw a small resurgence of Esper Thopterblade a few weeks back. There are certainly people keeping things fresh, that's for sure.
Super-duper Tl;Dr (that doesn't quite express how I feel, but here it is): Strong individual cards played together in the same deck tends to make a strong individual deck that can win games from time to time (a fair bit more than that, but I digress).
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
There is a lot of variety in build and strategy with this deck, and sometimes even decks that look similar can function differently. Conversely, there are a few different-looking Esperblade decks that function quite similarly. I want to put that aside and talk about the real core functionality of this deck, which is (I think) the source of its potency.
Esperblade is best suited to players who like to sideboard. For whatever reason, sideboard cards in these three colors tend to be very potent. So whereas the MD disruption tends to be a bit bland and weak (a few Forces, maybe a Pierce or two, some Thoughtseize and possibly a Wasteland)... the SB disruption can utterly wreck an opponent's deck almost by itself (Meddling Mage, Notion Thief, Zealous Persecution, Vendilion Clique, Flusterstorm, etc).
This is what explains certain quotes you'll find throughout the articles written about this style of deck, for instance Brad Nelson's: he said he was very happy when he wins game 1 with this deck because winning the SB games will be much easier (I forget his exact words). This deck is for people who are comfortable with that situation.
There is a lot of variety in build and strategy with this deck, and sometimes even decks that look similar can function differently. Conversely, there are a few different-looking Esperblade decks that function quite similarly. I want to put that aside and talk about the real core functionality of this deck, which is (I think) the source of its potency.
Esperblade is best suited to players who like to sideboard. For whatever reason, sideboard cards in these three colors tend to be very potent. So whereas the MD disruption tends to be a bit bland and weak (a few Forces, maybe a Pierce or two, some Thoughtseize and possibly a Wasteland)... the SB disruption can utterly wreck an opponent's deck almost by itself (Meddling Mage, Notion Thief, Zealous Persecution, Vendilion Clique, Flusterstorm, etc).
This is what explains certain quotes you'll find throughout the articles written about this style of deck, for instance Brad Nelson's: he said he was very happy when he wins game 1 with this deck because winning the SB games will be much easier (I forget his exact words). This deck is for people who are comfortable with that situation.
*raises hand* I am definitely in this camp; I love Esper for the potential for very lopsided games 2 and 3's due to superior sideboarding options.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
If I understand what's being said, even though I can't see the power of this deck, have faith that the combo of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull is very powerful... I guess I'll just try it and see what happends.
If I understand what's being said, even though I can't see the power of this deck, have faith that the combo of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull is very powerful... I guess I'll just try it and see what happends.
^Yeah, basically. And don't forget Umezawa's Jitte. Only "downside" is that it's 2 cmc to cast and 2 cmc to equip so can be taxing on mana. And you have to have the creature hit something. But those are pretty easy requirements. It's pretty dumb how efficient that card is at controlling entire board states. And True-Name equipped with Jitte/BSkull is even dumber.
When I first picked up the deck, I was like, "omg mirrurrdun swords!!! Yeah yeah, Jitte's neat too. Whatevs." Then I actually played it. Was sold on it instantly.
Also, the deck gives you the benefit of kinda choosing which role you want to be playing (aggro-esk or control-esk).
If you're looking for a deck that has a more clear strategy, then I'd suggest a different deck. Like Delver or Miracles or Lands (plenty others too). Not necessarily saying they're easier decks or less complex decks to pilot; those other strategies are just much more forward about exactly what they plan to do.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I've been looking at this deck type for quite a while now. I've read post after post and watched a ton of youtube videos, but I still don't get it. Where does the potency of this deck come from? Is it simply that you can search for and cast Batterskull for very little mana? That seems very underwhelming. Is it the combination of the control elements that make it good (Force of Will, Swords to Plowshare). I've never played this deck, so I'm an outside observer looking in.
Legacy styles and preferences have definitely changed since this deck was at its prime; these days everyone is trying to be hyper-aggressive/have ultra-slick streamlined card draw consistency engines. Hence why even after Cruise banning, there are quite a number of decks that try to stick to 18 or less lands, while playing massive amounts of cantrips in the form of 4x Brainstorm, xxPonder, xxWhatever fill-in -- be it Thoughtscour, Mental Note, Preordain, etc.
Because of this, I can see why you'd think Stoneblade is weak or rather unappealing. To be honest, some days I look at my deck lists and old lists and even current lists (be it brews OR winning deck lists), and I wonder where the "true engine" is. It's not a particularly proactive list, I'll give you that. The deck was designed to be an aggro-control list (fairly midrange-ish); its prowess is in its ability to have early game answers to try and stumble opponents/halt them off for our midrange power spike in the forms of Stoneforge, Batterskull, and Jace. But it can switch gears and go all-out aggressive with Stoneforge turn 2 immediately into Batterskull turn 3, and then adding more pressure either through Lingering Souls, Jace, or True-Name. Or simply just sitting back and riding B'Skull to victory. Interestingly enough, Batterskull is still quite a very powerful card and a hard card to answer. This is a testament to Batterskull's power level. Of course, "all-out aggression mode" with this deck, I admit, looks rather embarrassing compared to some of the other dedicated fish-style decks in the format (Delver and the ilk). But against those decks, this deck can switch gears and play defensive and hold out till late game where our cards are typically stronger.
Though part of our strength before was running plenty of one-of's like Vindicate and Supreme Verdict that allowed us to have bomb-like comebacks, while using what we back then considered "plenty of ways" to filter (usually just 4x Brainstorm, 1-2x Ponders -- if even that much, then 3x Jace). These days though, I don't quite think it works very well anymore (the specialty one-of's at least; we used to try things like 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Vindicate, 1x Academy Ruins, 1x Creeping Tar Pit (tech/optional), while running 22 lands). These days, if you were to do the 1-of's, it's either relegated to the sideboard, or you're running the minimum of 4x BS, 4x Ponder, then MAYBE 1-2x additional draws like Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Thoughtscour, Mental Note. And then some number of Dig Through Times (2-4x). And after all of that, you would put in the 1-of's. Also you're probably cutting your lands down to 20 or less. That seems to be the style/preference anyway. Admittedly, Dig Through Time really helps the 1-of's deck building should you want to play like that.
These days, the arguments for/against Stoneblade are real odd, as xBlade control lists come in many variations, and because of the versatile nature of building and playing it, sometimes they look really similar to lists that are more dedicated to their role as either aggressor or defender. Jeskai Delver for example looks really similar to Jeskai Stoneblade, since both decks are gonna run the best cards in their color anyway (StP, BS, Bolt, etc.). Then you fill in the rest. And that's either going Delver route with Young Pyromancers. Or you go a little slower and prioritize Stoneforge with True-Name. Maybe still run Young Pyro even though you're not as aggressive anymore. These kinds of overlap blurs the line a little. Then Dig's primary targets will differ some too. Midrangey might still want Jace. And the sideboards will look different accordingly; Stoneblade will play maybe Blood Moon and Baneslayer or whatever else. Whereas Delver will stick to cards that better suit their needs. The other side of the spectrum is that Jeskai Stoneblade looks rather similar to Miracles. Well, somewhat. Both builds' "stock" lists are rather different. But there have been some hybrid lists in the past that draw from one another; BBD's preference with SFM package over Entreat the Angels win-con in Miracles would be one such example. Other people tried Stoneblade with a transformational sideboard into Miracles -- kinda (mostly just for Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, which is kind of a variant of Jeskai-Blade; a more Jeskai Control build than an aggro-control deck).
And that's just an explanation of the color combination of U, W, R. We haven't even delved into Esper (UWB) and Deathblade. Their builds are rather different, even if only by a few small card changes; the primary difference between Esperblade and Deathblade is Deathrite Shaman. But that difference changes things a lot. Esper and Deathblade in particular have very strong access to many of Legacy's finest cards due to the amount of colors they run. And there's a lot of strong sideboard options as well. Esperblade can be and is generally built to be rather grindy (but like all Blade variants, also retains the "fast" starts too). A debate between Lingering Souls and True-Name Nemesis tends to come up; either option works in Esper. Esper a tad better with Souls, as that card is better at beating down on Miracles, especially combined with Black's discard disruption, and Flashback. But both of those cards can be run together, really.
Deathblade is interesting in that it advertises that it can be like other xBlade variants where it can go aggro early, then grind out late like with Jace, Liliana, and B'Skull. But then again, there's a lot of people that feel that Deathblade's true role is to be the aggressor and take advantage of DRS's ramp and continual damage to take a lead early. If that doesn't happen, apparently it falls behind. Personally, although I agree with the notion to some degree, I never really felt out of the game, so long as I'm running Jace, True-Name, and Batterskull. Except against Miracles, I think the match-up might be worse for Deathblade here than Esperblade.
Now, this deck is called "aggro-control," yet it doesn't run much permission. It does seem odd, doesn't it? Plenty of lists kind of just run 4x Force, then maybe a smattering of Pierces here and there and call it a day. Sometimes they put in the 1-of Counterspell. Doesn't "feel" very control-ish at least on paper (Straight U/W is pretty counterspell-heavy though). But I think in practice, it speaks better; some number of discard serves as disruption. And that the deck's control is kind of in its ability to call the shots with its fairly strong and versatile cards; each card themselves are really just hyper-strong efficient cards that opponents would want to answer in a rather quick manner. (SFM, TNN, DRS, Young Pyro, Snapcaster too in some builds). Some blade variants really feels like a "Legacy All-Stars team," where it's a bunch of ultra efficient creatures and value cards.
To touch on one last thing, the appeal of Esperblade (at least in the past) is that its match-up percentage against the field used to be (and to a degree, still is) pretty much 50/50 and can go in either players' favor; you're always at least in the game to some degree, and if you play tight/sideboard well, you can grind out sweet victories.
I guess these days though, most people would rather go in with a plan; either play something more proactive like aggressive Delver decks. Or play aggressively on something like Combo (Elves, SnT, Storm, Reanimator, etc.). Or have an all-in strategy defensively like Miracles (or Lands). And then there's MUD, Painter, etc. Those decks may not have 50/50 match-ups, but their Plan A's are a lot more aggressive and defined. I guess the other thing is if people want to durdle, their thought process might be to just go into the durdle deck with more definitive inevitability (Miracles).
In short, Blade Control is kind of like a Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None archetype. Still a very potent deck that allows a lot of room to tinker with. I think this might simply just be the testament to the cards typically run; one card in particular is Stoneforge Mystic; even though she's a fairly old card now, she has stood the test of time as a significantly strong and stable card. Same goes for Batterskull; it tends to be a rather hard card for people to answer. Either they try to ignore it or go over the top. No matter what, playing against an opposing B'Skull is always a pain to deal with, especially if the Blade Control player has it their way (SFM turn 2, BSkull turn 3). Trust me, it's still a very annoying card to play against regardless of the stage of the game. And Umezawa's Jitte. I haven't talked about that equipment at all, but believe me, it's insane as well. And of course, if you wanted to be cheeky/meta-game/have fun, you can have SFM fetch up any other equipment like Manriki-Gusari and the 5 Mirrodin swords.
Not to say Blade Control is the "best deck" in the format or anything. But it's still a contender and generally overall very resilient; it might not be right at the top as the "premier deck of Legacy" anymore, but it's definitely not dead. The lines of plays in the deck are pretty high, offering a lot of chances to outplay opponents -- be it obviously or subtly. And also because of this, the deck is fun to play with again and again. That's how I feel anyway.
Currently am testing out 19-20 land Monastery Mentor Esperblade. And also messing around with UW Mentor Blade as well. Gonna try and rebuild/test a slightly more "traditional" Esperblade sometime later. Also, saw a small resurgence of Esper Thopterblade a few weeks back. There are certainly people keeping things fresh, that's for sure.
Super-duper Tl;Dr (that doesn't quite express how I feel, but here it is): Strong individual cards played together in the same deck tends to make a strong individual deck that can win games from time to time (a fair bit more than that, but I digress).
I think your post is really insightful. I was thinking about how close affinity is to a tez control deck, depending on the lists and how close punishing nic fit is to jund. It seems that really good cards branch out into alot of similar decks with subtle differences.
Maybe the lighter permission decks were enough to disrupt in the past but are no longer sufficient. It seems like as decks become better and more focused, it is hard to have positive match ups against all the archetypes. Not that it was possible before even, but maybe the jack of all trades deck just does alright in any given meta, while the people that are winning tournaments tend to play decks that they believe will be able to prey on a meta's strength or weakness. Like when treasure cruise was everywhere, there was a decline in LoTV because she couldn't attrition decks out as well and just stone forge mystics in general. Delver or decks that preyed on delver, were played more and more likely to win because of that bias.
I went 4-0 at my LGS this week in a legacy event of about 20 people with the following Esper Stoneblade decklist. I had been playing the deck for a while and I always felt that the deck was more fun than viable, so going undefeated was a pleasant surprise.
I was able to beat 4 of what I consider to be even to unfavorable matchups:
Round 1 vs Death and Taxes (2-0):
Game 1 I was slowed by Thalia and was facing down a resolved Sword of Fire and Ice, but was able to prevent it from ever being equipped to a creature and eventually Vindicated it. I later landed a Batterskull and an Umezawa's Jitte. I made the mistake of attacking with the Batterskull germ into a Thalia with a Jitte equipped, but my opponent didn't see the favorable block and prematurely scooped. Game 2 was a battle of attrition until my opponent resolved a Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a Karakas to back it up. I was able to stall with Lingering Souls until I found a Vindicate for the Karakas and then took over the game with a Jitte.
For games 1 and 3, I was able to beat down with creatures and equipment before my opponent could get a lock or the Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace combo and had enough mana to pay for Elephant Grass. The fact that Germ tokens are black made Batterskull too slow in both games. Game 2 I countered an initial Argothian Enchantress and then named the same card with a Meddling Mage. He then played an Enchantress's Presence, however, and ran away with the game.
Round 4 vs ANT (2-0):
Game 1 my opponent had a hand full of disruption and rituals but did not draw an Infernal Tutor, Tendrils of Agony, or Ad Nauseam for many turns. I was able to resolve a Jace to disrupt his draws long enough while holding up several counterspells to win the game. Game 2 my opponent naturally drew a Tendrils of Agony but did not have the storm count to kill me without using Past in Flames, which he also had in hand. I had a Nihil Spellbomb on board and a Force of Will in hand, which he was never able to answer before I won with beatdown from Meddling Mages.
Moving forward, I would like to replace a Nihil Spellbomb in the sideboard with a Containment Priest, which I did not happen to own at the time.
Not very many recent posts. How do people think this deck is positioned right now?
Deathblade or Esper Stoneblade better?
I've never liked the greedy manabase of the Deathblade variant (there is a separate thread in the Aggro section to discuss that deck). Personally, after playing Esper Stoneblade for a while I have come to question whether the black splash is worth it. I'm searching right now for a different deck to play, but if I were to play a Stoneblade variant right now it would probably be just UW Stoneblade for the very stable mana base.
People make such a big deal about the manabase when I don't think it's that bad for Esper or UWR, both of which are much better positioned than UW or Death.
People make such a big deal about the manabase when I don't think it's that bad for Esper or UWR, both of which are much better positioned than UW or Death.
^This. I hardly ever find the mana base to be "bad" enough to actually care about going straight UW. UW makes it easier to run your own Wastelands and/or Mishra's factory. I guess. What you end up replacing the splash cards for...has never really enticed me much either.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
yeah but is wasteland really something you want in a control deck? i know sometimes this deck can get an explosive SFM without being disrupted, but thats really not the norm
As I am new to this deck, is UWr or UWB the way to make this deck playable, or are these splashes a meta call? Is UW possible to make an effective stoneblade control deck?
yeah but is wasteland really something you want in a control deck? i know sometimes this deck can get an explosive SFM without being disrupted, but thats really not the norm
Nah, I wasn't suggesting it as a good option. But it's there. I personally am not a big fan of Wasteland in Stoneblade.
As I am new to this deck, is UWr or UWB the way to make this deck playable, or are these splashes a meta call? Is UW possible to make an effective stoneblade control deck?
Still possible. As for how strong it is? I have a hard time telling. Stoneblade as an archetype is really balanced and fair. How well you faire in a tournament is all about how you built your deck, then how well you play, and then after that...sometimes luck. Since match-ups are usually at least playable.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Black:
Tasigur, the Golden Fang (and by extension, Gurmag Angler too I guess)
Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
Lingering Souls
Engineered Plague
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Massacre
Perish
Virtue's Ruin (I'm just listing this here as an option -- usually not the reason to play black)
Vindicate
Zealous Persecution
Thopter Foundry (+Sword of the Meek combo)
Tidehollow Sculler
Notion Thief
Baleful Strix
Dimir Charm (I liked it better in Treasure Cruise meta, but it's "meh" now, I feel. Again though, just an option)
Surgical Extraction
Extirpate
Plenty more black cards. The sideboard for black is really strong -- especially against creatures, IMO. So, it's primarily Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize (discard), and Tasigur. Then a myriad of black cards for the sideboard of your choosing.
Again, not comprehensive. And again, just an idea of the options available. Primary cards in red that you'd be splashing for are: Lightning Bolt, RedBlast/Pyroblast, Blood Moon. And, if you want, you have sweepers and utility cards as well. Also, there are some cards there that kinda change the archetype a little bit like Grim Lavamancer (well, he's more utility...IMO not great in Stoneblade) and Young Pyromancer.
Also, by going 3 colors, it makes Engineered Explosives more versatile, since you can put Sunburst = 3 instead of just 0-2.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Thanks for this! These few cards I suppose do make the deck have a better side board or overall gameplan. Red splash seems like adding bolts for removal and blasts for the counter war and blood moon for the non-red decks.
The black splash send to go on a different route of preemptive control and can get away with more noncreature spells. This splash send to have more answers in the form of boardwipes.
Is this correct?
It seems to me that the black splash adds more cards than the red splash.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Blade variants (especially Esper) haven't been as popular. And they don't win 1st place often enough for people to be interested. Also, Legacy tournaments don't happen all too often locally and attendance varies by regions and communities. Makes it hard to play and/or write about it. That's what I find anyway.
I still like the deck a ton and try to play from time to time, but don't get the chance to too often because of college, time, and finding an avid group of players. Also, it's kind of an awkward slippery slope, where x number of people don't post, some people will be like, "Well, if no one's posting, no point in talking/I'm gonna go somewhere else." I'm a little guilty of this myself.
Esper built like Tom Martell and Vidi's stock lists are still decent enough to play, but they're a little out of date, so you'd want to mold it some. I know Reid Duke's list (and Charles Gordon's list which is basically Reid's list who made 1st with Esperblade in SCG Open) is a good place to start that's fairly recent. Shaheen Soorani's a die-hard fan of the archetype and very adamant about his Esper build. Though no particularly notable results (he did make like, top 8 though before Khans came out). I think the tools are all there in Esper to work, it's just competent pilots + proper build and sideboard/meta call + some decent luck are necessary to do really well. I know you can technically say that about every deck, but I feel that because Esper is such a "fair" deck even for fair decks that you'd have to play pretty well and pretty hard to win a major event. Not to say the deck is weak; again IMO the deck is solid and all the tools are there. It's just that the meta's changed and adapted quite a bit. As an aside, I enjoyed pre-Khans meta very much and found that Esper was perfectly fine there. Post-Khans (specifically Cruise) felt terrible for Esper though. Now that Cruise is banned and the meta's basically shifted back, I think it could be Esper's time again. I might consider switching back to Esper from Deathblade.
Reid's article.
^His Esperblade list is here. I know it's 2013, but it's a pretty stock list (about as up to date at the time as any). And subsequently, Charles Gordon won 1st Place at SCG Legacy Open 2-3 days later. His list is here:
Charles Gordon's list
^In the interview after he won, he said that his list wasn't as good and should've stuck to Reid Duke's list exactly. Though, it was only a few cards different. Decent starting point. Though obviously you'd probably want to think about/incorporate the new stuff since then.
Shaheen Soorani's list
Article of his list at Grand Prix New Jersey this past fall
Article on his list(s)
Another article on his list (I think -- haven't read this one I don't think)
Do note the dates of these articles when considering what to do with your deck moving forward.
Now, the derivatives of Esper like Deathblade or U/x/x ThopterBlade are all very good too and pretty easy to port the cards around to. And I think this is kinda the true strength of Esperblade is that it can be built in a number of variants that it makes it hard for opponents to pin down exactly what you're running and what you're capable of.
But, I'll try to stop rambling now and give you some links/suggestions to where to go. mtgthesource is pretty dedicated to just Legacy and the older formats. So it's worth checking around there. There's at least two threads there that generates some discussions from time to time. Specifically I'm referring to Deathblade thread and U/W/x Stoneblade. The problem though is that although there's more discussions there, sometimes it's about as dead as here (though not quite as badly; it picks up from time to time). The upside is that there's maybe 2-3 people talking about Thopter-Sword combos in Esper over there. Also, Phillip Schonegger was planning on putting together a team (online) specifically for Esperblade (this was around Cruise meta so during last fall), but I think he postponed it because he was working on Miracles still. No idea if that's still going on.
Deathblade mtgthesource thread
Esperblade mtgthesource thread
Blade Control mtgthesource thread
The only problem with the 3rd link is that because it's General blade control, there will be discussions about other Blade variants.
And there's some lists that are U/W Stoneblade but with Monastery Mentor in them as well. It's possible to try and adopt that strategy for Esperblade.
UW Control Deck with Monastery Mentor
Esper Thopter Deck
With that said, I really need to make an account over there...
P.S. What I've been doing to stay up to date on Legacy is just to look at either reports or top 8/16's of Legacy tournaments either through mtgtop8.com or starcitygames.com. I'd do more but that's all that time permits.
Legacy styles and preferences have definitely changed since this deck was at its prime; these days everyone is trying to be hyper-aggressive/have ultra-slick streamlined card draw consistency engines. Hence why even after Cruise banning, there are quite a number of decks that try to stick to 18 or less lands, while playing massive amounts of cantrips in the form of 4x Brainstorm, xxPonder, xxWhatever fill-in -- be it Thoughtscour, Mental Note, Preordain, etc.
Because of this, I can see why you'd think Stoneblade is weak or rather unappealing. To be honest, some days I look at my deck lists and old lists and even current lists (be it brews OR winning deck lists), and I wonder where the "true engine" is. It's not a particularly proactive list, I'll give you that. The deck was designed to be an aggro-control list (fairly midrange-ish); its prowess is in its ability to have early game answers to try and stumble opponents/halt them off for our midrange power spike in the forms of Stoneforge, Batterskull, and Jace. But it can switch gears and go all-out aggressive with Stoneforge turn 2 immediately into Batterskull turn 3, and then adding more pressure either through Lingering Souls, Jace, or True-Name. Or simply just sitting back and riding B'Skull to victory. Interestingly enough, Batterskull is still quite a very powerful card and a hard card to answer. This is a testament to Batterskull's power level. Of course, "all-out aggression mode" with this deck, I admit, looks rather embarrassing compared to some of the other dedicated fish-style decks in the format (Delver and the ilk). But against those decks, this deck can switch gears and play defensive and hold out till late game where our cards are typically stronger.
Though part of our strength before was running plenty of one-of's like Vindicate and Supreme Verdict that allowed us to have bomb-like comebacks, while using what we back then considered "plenty of ways" to filter (usually just 4x Brainstorm, 1-2x Ponders -- if even that much, then 3x Jace). These days though, I don't quite think it works very well anymore (the specialty one-of's at least; we used to try things like 1x Engineered Explosives, 1x Supreme Verdict, 1x Vindicate, 1x Academy Ruins, 1x Creeping Tar Pit (tech/optional), while running 22 lands). These days, if you were to do the 1-of's, it's either relegated to the sideboard, or you're running the minimum of 4x BS, 4x Ponder, then MAYBE 1-2x additional draws like Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Thoughtscour, Mental Note. And then some number of Dig Through Times (2-4x). And after all of that, you would put in the 1-of's. Also you're probably cutting your lands down to 20 or less. That seems to be the style/preference anyway. Admittedly, Dig Through Time really helps the 1-of's deck building should you want to play like that.
These days, the arguments for/against Stoneblade are real odd, as xBlade control lists come in many variations, and because of the versatile nature of building and playing it, sometimes they look really similar to lists that are more dedicated to their role as either aggressor or defender. Jeskai Delver for example looks really similar to Jeskai Stoneblade, since both decks are gonna run the best cards in their color anyway (StP, BS, Bolt, etc.). Then you fill in the rest. And that's either going Delver route with Young Pyromancers. Or you go a little slower and prioritize Stoneforge with True-Name. Maybe still run Young Pyro even though you're not as aggressive anymore. These kinds of overlap blurs the line a little. Then Dig's primary targets will differ some too. Midrangey might still want Jace. And the sideboards will look different accordingly; Stoneblade will play maybe Blood Moon and Baneslayer or whatever else. Whereas Delver will stick to cards that better suit their needs. The other side of the spectrum is that Jeskai Stoneblade looks rather similar to Miracles. Well, somewhat. Both builds' "stock" lists are rather different. But there have been some hybrid lists in the past that draw from one another; BBD's preference with SFM package over Entreat the Angels win-con in Miracles would be one such example. Other people tried Stoneblade with a transformational sideboard into Miracles -- kinda (mostly just for Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, which is kind of a variant of Jeskai-Blade; a more Jeskai Control build than an aggro-control deck).
And that's just an explanation of the color combination of U, W, R. We haven't even delved into Esper (UWB) and Deathblade. Their builds are rather different, even if only by a few small card changes; the primary difference between Esperblade and Deathblade is Deathrite Shaman. But that difference changes things a lot. Esper and Deathblade in particular have very strong access to many of Legacy's finest cards due to the amount of colors they run. And there's a lot of strong sideboard options as well. Esperblade can be and is generally built to be rather grindy (but like all Blade variants, also retains the "fast" starts too). A debate between Lingering Souls and True-Name Nemesis tends to come up; either option works in Esper. Esper a tad better with Souls, as that card is better at beating down on Miracles, especially combined with Black's discard disruption, and Flashback. But both of those cards can be run together, really.
Deathblade is interesting in that it advertises that it can be like other xBlade variants where it can go aggro early, then grind out late like with Jace, Liliana, and B'Skull. But then again, there's a lot of people that feel that Deathblade's true role is to be the aggressor and take advantage of DRS's ramp and continual damage to take a lead early. If that doesn't happen, apparently it falls behind. Personally, although I agree with the notion to some degree, I never really felt out of the game, so long as I'm running Jace, True-Name, and Batterskull. Except against Miracles, I think the match-up might be worse for Deathblade here than Esperblade.
Now, this deck is called "aggro-control," yet it doesn't run much permission. It does seem odd, doesn't it? Plenty of lists kind of just run 4x Force, then maybe a smattering of Pierces here and there and call it a day. Sometimes they put in the 1-of Counterspell. Doesn't "feel" very control-ish at least on paper (Straight U/W is pretty counterspell-heavy though). But I think in practice, it speaks better; some number of discard serves as disruption. And that the deck's control is kind of in its ability to call the shots with its fairly strong and versatile cards; each card themselves are really just hyper-strong efficient cards that opponents would want to answer in a rather quick manner. (SFM, TNN, DRS, Young Pyro, Snapcaster too in some builds). Some blade variants really feels like a "Legacy All-Stars team," where it's a bunch of ultra efficient creatures and value cards.
To touch on one last thing, the appeal of Esperblade (at least in the past) is that its match-up percentage against the field used to be (and to a degree, still is) pretty much 50/50 and can go in either players' favor; you're always at least in the game to some degree, and if you play tight/sideboard well, you can grind out sweet victories.
I guess these days though, most people would rather go in with a plan; either play something more proactive like aggressive Delver decks. Or play aggressively on something like Combo (Elves, SnT, Storm, Reanimator, etc.). Or have an all-in strategy defensively like Miracles (or Lands). And then there's MUD, Painter, etc. Those decks may not have 50/50 match-ups, but their Plan A's are a lot more aggressive and defined. I guess the other thing is if people want to durdle, their thought process might be to just go into the durdle deck with more definitive inevitability (Miracles).
In short, Blade Control is kind of like a Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-None archetype. Still a very potent deck that allows a lot of room to tinker with. I think this might simply just be the testament to the cards typically run; one card in particular is Stoneforge Mystic; even though she's a fairly old card now, she has stood the test of time as a significantly strong and stable card. Same goes for Batterskull; it tends to be a rather hard card for people to answer. Either they try to ignore it or go over the top. No matter what, playing against an opposing B'Skull is always a pain to deal with, especially if the Blade Control player has it their way (SFM turn 2, BSkull turn 3). Trust me, it's still a very annoying card to play against regardless of the stage of the game. And Umezawa's Jitte. I haven't talked about that equipment at all, but believe me, it's insane as well. And of course, if you wanted to be cheeky/meta-game/have fun, you can have SFM fetch up any other equipment like Manriki-Gusari and the 5 Mirrodin swords.
Not to say Blade Control is the "best deck" in the format or anything. But it's still a contender and generally overall very resilient; it might not be right at the top as the "premier deck of Legacy" anymore, but it's definitely not dead. The lines of plays in the deck are pretty high, offering a lot of chances to outplay opponents -- be it obviously or subtly. And also because of this, the deck is fun to play with again and again. That's how I feel anyway.
Currently am testing out 19-20 land Monastery Mentor Esperblade. And also messing around with UW Mentor Blade as well. Gonna try and rebuild/test a slightly more "traditional" Esperblade sometime later. Also, saw a small resurgence of Esper Thopterblade a few weeks back. There are certainly people keeping things fresh, that's for sure.
Super-duper Tl;Dr (that doesn't quite express how I feel, but here it is): Strong individual cards played together in the same deck tends to make a strong individual deck that can win games from time to time (a fair bit more than that, but I digress).
Esperblade is best suited to players who like to sideboard. For whatever reason, sideboard cards in these three colors tend to be very potent. So whereas the MD disruption tends to be a bit bland and weak (a few Forces, maybe a Pierce or two, some Thoughtseize and possibly a Wasteland)... the SB disruption can utterly wreck an opponent's deck almost by itself (Meddling Mage, Notion Thief, Zealous Persecution, Vendilion Clique, Flusterstorm, etc).
This is what explains certain quotes you'll find throughout the articles written about this style of deck, for instance Brad Nelson's: he said he was very happy when he wins game 1 with this deck because winning the SB games will be much easier (I forget his exact words). This deck is for people who are comfortable with that situation.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
*raises hand* I am definitely in this camp; I love Esper for the potential for very lopsided games 2 and 3's due to superior sideboarding options.
^Yeah, basically. And don't forget Umezawa's Jitte. Only "downside" is that it's 2 cmc to cast and 2 cmc to equip so can be taxing on mana. And you have to have the creature hit something. But those are pretty easy requirements.
When I first picked up the deck, I was like, "omg mirrurrdun swords!!! Yeah yeah, Jitte's neat too. Whatevs." Then I actually played it. Was sold on it instantly.
Also, the deck gives you the benefit of kinda choosing which role you want to be playing (aggro-esk or control-esk).
If you're looking for a deck that has a more clear strategy, then I'd suggest a different deck. Like Delver or Miracles or Lands (plenty others too). Not necessarily saying they're easier decks or less complex decks to pilot; those other strategies are just much more forward about exactly what they plan to do.
I think your post is really insightful. I was thinking about how close affinity is to a tez control deck, depending on the lists and how close punishing nic fit is to jund. It seems that really good cards branch out into alot of similar decks with subtle differences.
Maybe the lighter permission decks were enough to disrupt in the past but are no longer sufficient. It seems like as decks become better and more focused, it is hard to have positive match ups against all the archetypes. Not that it was possible before even, but maybe the jack of all trades deck just does alright in any given meta, while the people that are winning tournaments tend to play decks that they believe will be able to prey on a meta's strength or weakness. Like when treasure cruise was everywhere, there was a decline in LoTV because she couldn't attrition decks out as well and just stone forge mystics in general. Delver or decks that preyed on delver, were played more and more likely to win because of that bias.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
Creatures - 7
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Equipment - 3
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Dimir Charm
1 Dig Through Time
Sorceries - 8
3 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Vindicate
1 Ponder
Planeswalkers - 3
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Meddling Mage
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
I was able to beat 4 of what I consider to be even to unfavorable matchups:
Round 1 vs Death and Taxes (2-0):
Game 1 I was slowed by Thalia and was facing down a resolved Sword of Fire and Ice, but was able to prevent it from ever being equipped to a creature and eventually Vindicated it. I later landed a Batterskull and an Umezawa's Jitte. I made the mistake of attacking with the Batterskull germ into a Thalia with a Jitte equipped, but my opponent didn't see the favorable block and prematurely scooped. Game 2 was a battle of attrition until my opponent resolved a Brimaz, King of Oreskos with a Karakas to back it up. I was able to stall with Lingering Souls until I found a Vindicate for the Karakas and then took over the game with a Jitte.
Round 2 vs Burning Loam (2-1):
Game 1 I resolved a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and Lingering Souls. While my opponent had an active Grove of the Burnwillows/Punishing Fire combo and Life from the Loam/Wasteland engine going, he was held back on tempo by the Sorin and eventually scooped when I resolved a Jace. I was not too familiar with the archetype, so Game 2 I made the mistake of siding out most of my removal and found myself facing down a Knight of the Reliquary, a Gaddock Teeg, and an impending Thespian's Stage/Dark Depths combo upon which I scooped. Game 3, I resolved a Manriki-Gusari against my opponent's Jitte and took over the game with equipment.
Round 3 vs GW Enchantress (2-1):
For games 1 and 3, I was able to beat down with creatures and equipment before my opponent could get a lock or the Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace combo and had enough mana to pay for Elephant Grass. The fact that Germ tokens are black made Batterskull too slow in both games. Game 2 I countered an initial Argothian Enchantress and then named the same card with a Meddling Mage. He then played an Enchantress's Presence, however, and ran away with the game.
Round 4 vs ANT (2-0):
Game 1 my opponent had a hand full of disruption and rituals but did not draw an Infernal Tutor, Tendrils of Agony, or Ad Nauseam for many turns. I was able to resolve a Jace to disrupt his draws long enough while holding up several counterspells to win the game. Game 2 my opponent naturally drew a Tendrils of Agony but did not have the storm count to kill me without using Past in Flames, which he also had in hand. I had a Nihil Spellbomb on board and a Force of Will in hand, which he was never able to answer before I won with beatdown from Meddling Mages.
Moving forward, I would like to replace a Nihil Spellbomb in the sideboard with a Containment Priest, which I did not happen to own at the time.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
Deathblade or Esper Stoneblade better?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I've never liked the greedy manabase of the Deathblade variant (there is a separate thread in the Aggro section to discuss that deck). Personally, after playing Esper Stoneblade for a while I have come to question whether the black splash is worth it. I'm searching right now for a different deck to play, but if I were to play a Stoneblade variant right now it would probably be just UW Stoneblade for the very stable mana base.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
^This. I hardly ever find the mana base to be "bad" enough to actually care about going straight UW. UW makes it easier to run your own Wastelands and/or Mishra's factory. I guess. What you end up replacing the splash cards for...has never really enticed me much either.
Nah, I wasn't suggesting it as a good option. But it's there. I personally am not a big fan of Wasteland in Stoneblade.
Still possible. As for how strong it is? I have a hard time telling. Stoneblade as an archetype is really balanced and fair. How well you faire in a tournament is all about how you built your deck, then how well you play, and then after that...sometimes luck. Since match-ups are usually at least playable.
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis
Spells
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Council's Judgment
1 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Meddling Mage
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Supreme Verdict
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Tasigur, the Golden Fang (and by extension, Gurmag Angler too I guess)
Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize
Lingering Souls
Engineered Plague
Night of Souls' Betrayal
Massacre
Perish
Virtue's Ruin (I'm just listing this here as an option -- usually not the reason to play black)
Vindicate
Zealous Persecution
Thopter Foundry (+Sword of the Meek combo)
Tidehollow Sculler
Notion Thief
Baleful Strix
Dimir Charm (I liked it better in Treasure Cruise meta, but it's "meh" now, I feel. Again though, just an option)
Surgical Extraction
Extirpate
Plenty more black cards. The sideboard for black is really strong -- especially against creatures, IMO. So, it's primarily Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize (discard), and Tasigur. Then a myriad of black cards for the sideboard of your choosing.
Red:
Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Grim Lavamancer
Young Pyromancer
Sulfur Elemental
Blood Moon
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Firespout
Sudden Demise
Pyroclasm
Wear // Tear
Rough // Tumble
Again, not comprehensive. And again, just an idea of the options available. Primary cards in red that you'd be splashing for are: Lightning Bolt, RedBlast/Pyroblast, Blood Moon. And, if you want, you have sweepers and utility cards as well. Also, there are some cards there that kinda change the archetype a little bit like Grim Lavamancer (well, he's more utility...IMO not great in Stoneblade) and Young Pyromancer.
Also, by going 3 colors, it makes Engineered Explosives more versatile, since you can put Sunburst = 3 instead of just 0-2.
The black splash send to go on a different route of preemptive control and can get away with more noncreature spells. This splash send to have more answers in the form of boardwipes.
Is this correct?
It seems to me that the black splash adds more cards than the red splash.