For those who never tried out Earwig Squad before, here is what you are missing.
Its a 5/3 for 5 mana and most of the time 2-3 mana.
Nobody really cares about the toughness, just that its above Engineered Plague range and it cant be Pyroclasmed.
The moment it is prowled, it removes 3 crucial cards.
In a Threshold matchup, removing 3 Tarmogoyfs means that you have 3 less stuff to worry about. After all, Goyf is the only thing goblins really fear. The rest can be traded threat for threat.
The difference between it and Wort is, Wort requires you to make it live to your upkeep. Any idiot knows that he has to counter or kill Wort before your next upkeep.
Wort is not good for early game. It returns nothing if nothing is in your graveyard. Spending R just to return a Mogg Fanatic is not exactly what Goblins has in mind. Legacy is a fast format. Games are decided most of the time by turn 2-4. Wort is a creature that is turn 4 and above effective.
Trading a Earwig Squad for a Tarmogoyf in combat is EXACTLY what Goblins has in mind. Goblins have more threats then Threshold. Trading ALWAYS work in Goblins favour. Threshold's threats are very valuable to them. Making them lose them via prowling Earwig or trading it with goyf is good.
Besides, it hits for 5. 5 is a lot of damage. 1/4 of your opponent's life.
For your info,
This is the new revolutionised Goblins list. I have modified it to be the fastest Goblins list and the best too.
Expect to see it winning everywhere. It is that good.
Aside from the mainstays, some stuff here and there in maindeck and sideboard can change accordingly to whatever metagame you are in.
Rishadan Port and Wasteland are only good if you are ahead in the tempo race. If you are behind, they suck. They also suck if your opponent happen to draw more lands than usual.
Aether Vial is only good for the control matchup, against decks like with Trinisphere and the likes. They are also only good vs Counterbalance + Top. Most of the time, they only serve to slow the deck down.
Frogtosser Banneret is as good as Goblin Warchief can be. It is one of the key pieces to how and why this deck wins so easily and can empty its hand so fast. It also makes Earwig Squad so much better. Expect to see people countering this card or killing it before your turn 3. It is that good. I would almost always recommend playing it on turn 2 to bait out counters or just to speed up your deck entirely.
Mad Auntie can regenerate Goblins. It makes combat for other decks with creatures hard. It pumps your Goblins. It can be cast for as low as B mana.
Earwig Squad is is as good as I have just said. In this deck, it is insanely good.
You almost always spend 2 mana to prowl it. Or 4 mana to hardcast it.
Mutavault is a Goblin. It is a mana sink and an additional creature. You will come to realise how good they are.
This deck, unllike the builds of all of yours, focuses on speed. It has a strict curve. 8 turn 1 drops, (9 if you include Chrome Mox) 9 turn 2 drops. Everything is as aggro as it can get.
For those doubting what I have said. Go ahead with being fools. I have had tournament success with it and everyone in the tournament or in casual/tournament playtesting can sense its power. It is brutal. Mark my words. This is the future list of Competitive Goblins.
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Either run 4 Wasteland or 0, there is no good reason for Goblins to run 2. Not having Vials means you can't effectively run disruption, pure speed without disruption isn't enough in legacy, otherwise 9-land stompy variants would be dominating the format.
1x Thoughtseize in the board? What decks are you boarding this in against that it is better than Duress? I understand that Thoughtseize is a better md choice, but it seems weak in the board.
Legacy is a fast format. Games are decided most of the time by turn 2-4. Wort is a creature that is turn 4 and above effective.
Because having a late game is bad? Between properly built Legacy decks most games are not decided between turns 2-4. There is a lot of interaction between most decks in Legacy and few games (outside of combo) are decided on the second turn. Free counters and cheap sweepers make balls to the walls aggro not so great in Legacy.
Also please don't say your deck is the fastest build of Goblins when it obviously isn't. You have the exact same amount of turn 3 kills as the standard goblin list, and the fastest ones won't be running 3 mana 1/1s.
Mutavault is a Goblin. It is a mana sink and an additional creature. You will come to realise how good they are.
Warchief is much better, not to say that Banneret is bad, but haste is extremely relevant to goblins.
Looking at the needs of your deck, is Chrome Mox any better than say Lotus Petal in that slot? As a one of your not reliably getting it on turn 1 (which is just about the only time you'd want it), and with 8 bannerets/warchiefs, you really only need the mana boost once. Can you really afford losing that extra card?
EDIT: Just noticed this
Aether Vial is only good for the control matchup, against decks like with Trinisphere and the likes. They are also only good vs Counterbalance + Top. Most of the time, they only serve to slow the deck down.
Guess what the deck that is most widely accepted best deck in the format runs, Countertop. What MUs are you improving that really warrant these changes?
For those doubting what I have said. Go ahead with being fools. I have had tournament success with it and everyone in the tournament or in casual/tournament playtesting can sense its power. It is brutal. Mark my words. This is the future list of Competitive Goblins.
How big were these tourneys? Do you have links to T8 results?
I talked to Jhoria on msn, I played the list we talked on. That above was the final list I ran. The tournament was a 5 round swiss. I went unbeatened in the swiss rounds:
Round 1 Threshold 2-0
Round 2 BUG Threshold 2-0
Round 3 Counterbalance Threshold 2-0 (I won this one when opponent had a Mongoose, an Enforcer with Threshold and a top and counterbalance lockdown when I had 1 creature in play and 1 mutavault)
Round 4 Dragon Stompy 2-1
Round 5 UG Madness 1-0
I lost to Madness in the quarterfinals to a topdecked wonder.
Warchief is much better, not to say that Banneret is bad, but haste is extremely relevant to goblins.
Banneret is the sole reason why this deck runs so fast and so well. Did you test this build even commenting anything? Bannerets smooths out the curve so well, that nearly every game I was able to play a creature every turn. Not to mention that Bannerets speeds up the deck so fast.
Bannerets were one reason why I still managed to go so fast even when there is a Chill in play against Round 2 Game 2. The opponent commented about that, his Chills were essentially useless when the Bannerets finally resolves, it nulls the effect for the Chills.
Guess what the deck that is most widely accepted best deck in the format runs, Countertop. What MUs are you improving that really warrant these changes?
I won Countertop without Vials game 1. He had a good hand with top and balance in his hand with abundant counters. With the correct play you can still win this matchup even without vials. The build is so fast that the top was trying to catchup with it. He only managed to lock me, after I prowled a Squad for 3 Goyfs, Gempalmed his 4th and hit him till a single life before he locked me. He was having problems trying to lock me still, pondering then shuffling his deck trying to find answers etc. A well placed Goblin lackey as a bait and another Goblin sealed the game. The only reason why I won this deck was because of Mutavaults. Nothing else. He had a 6/6 flyer and 3/3 creature. I beat him fast with the squad before he found a stp to it, that already brought him to one life.
Aside from the mainstays, some stuff here and there in maindeck and sideboard can change accordingly to whatever metagame you are in.
This is especially true when I was running this deck. I cut 4 thorn of amethyst in the sb to make way for 4 rebs, which was a good call since threshold had a good chuck of the meta that day. Something I'm thinking of doing is to cut 1 mogg war marshal to make way for a Eagwig card. As before this card is extremely powerful. It should'nt be underestimated.
Quote from Bladewing019 »
If Goyf didn't exist I'd be much more inclined to play Squad. If you want to fine.
Seems you are really biased against the squad. Its a MVP when I ran the deck. I always get it prowled out, 3 mana (maybe even less), take 3 threats and a 5/3 to boot and you think Squads should'nt be ran? Most games I removed 3 goyfs, killed the 4th. Thats a threat that is wiped out just by the card. In what way this card is not powerful? If the opponent does'nt kill the squad, its either a swap or 5 points of damage every turn.
It would be good if you'll actually test out this deck, and run it in a tournament. You will be surprised how effective the deck it. I essentially just wrecked through my swiss rounds. I only lost 1 game and had a game where I could'nt win easily and another an opponent (hes at 5 and I'm at 7) was hoping for a topdeck while I hold my position against him, killing him when his topdeck does'nt come out. Thats 1/9 games lost and 1/3 of games that I had difficulty winning, and of that due to right plays I won it.
You can ask Jhoria how much I doubted the build beforehand, and my attitude to it after running it. Note that I was playing a self built variant of QSI beforehand, TES and Iggy Pop too. I have never ran goblins in Legacy, never playtested with it at all. only time I ran Goblins was at a GP in 2005 extended season.
You can ask Jhoria how much I doubted the build beforehand, and my attitude to it after running it. Note that I was playing a self built variant of QSI beforehand, TES and Iggy Pop too. I have never ran goblins in Legacy, never playtested with it at all. only time I ran Goblins was at a GP in 2005 extended season.
This doesn't really lend you much credibility considering you can't really compare this build to more traditional ones.
Banneret is the sole reason why this deck runs so fast and so well. Did you test this build even commenting anything? Bannerets smooths out the curve so well, that nearly every game I was able to play a creature every turn. Not to mention that Bannerets speeds up the deck so fast.
Bannerets were one reason why I still managed to go so fast even when there is a Chill in play against Round 2 Game 2. The opponent commented about that, his Chills were essentially useless when the Bannerets finally resolves, it nulls the effect for the Chills.
I never said Banneret wasn't good, just that Warchief is better.
I won Countertop without Vials game 1. He had a good hand with top and balance in his hand with abundant counters. With the correct play you can still win this matchup even without vials. The build is so fast that the top was trying to catchup with it.
If you take a look at the mana curve of your version or even the standard version Countertop is pretty useless vs. you. Whomever your playing against should almost always side it out for more effective cards. I only brought it up because Jhoira mentioned that one of the "few" instances where vial is good, is against Countertop.
Seems you are really biased against the squad. Its a MVP when I ran the deck. I always get it prowled out, 3 mana (maybe even less), take 3 threats and a 5/3 to boot and you think Squads should'nt be ran? Most games I removed 3 goyfs, killed the 4th. Thats a threat that is wiped out just by the card. In what way this card is not powerful? If the opponent does'nt kill the squad, its either a swap or 5 points of damage every turn.
Yes I am biased against Squad since in testing it has been worse than the 2 cards its fighting for slots with, SGC and Wort. It is probably better than Wort in a pure speed oriented build, but if your going for speed without md disruption why not go all the way?
Also do you have a link to the other t8 decklists?
A six round tournament is probably the minimum I would consider for a respectable T8 tournament report finish. I know that The Source uses a 33 person minimum for determining their DTB status. As for your decklist, I have a few key points to make. I am going to try to list them with intelligent explanations accompanied, instead of making unsupported generalized statements using misspelled words, as some are wont to do.
1. I play Goblins. Extensively. I have played Goblins for three years, consistently and have tested every color splash and every viable card. I play at a *weekly* Sunday Legacy tournament, and have traveled to bigger tournaments recently such as TMLO III. This statement is to give credence to my next few points.
2. I have play-tested Wort, Bogart Auntie (not to be confused with Wort, the Raidmother) and can tell you that she will win games for you. She is excellent in the long game, and if you can cheat her in, it's just sexual. One of my favorite plays in legacy (besides belch you for 33) goes like this: - Mountain, Lackey - Badlands, Warren Weirding your 'goyf, swing, drop in Wort - Wort back weirding, weirding your dude, swing with lackey and Wort, drop in goblin...
She wins games.
3. The format in general, and this deck specifically, revolves around cheating mana. In legacy, nobody pays the full fair cost of to counter your spell. Nobody pays the fair cost for a 4/5 creature. This means that I agree with your assessment of the Frogtosser. It helps the core of this deck achieve its goal. It also means that I specifically disagree with your denouncement of Aether Vial. Three classic cards are the grease that has made slippery little goblins spill out on the table since the deck started winning tournaments: Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, and Aether Vial. All three cards help Goblins skirt around paying retail for SGCs and Ringleaders. Aether Vial is tested and proven. They are good against control (such as counterspells or prison strategies), I agree - but I don't side them out against other aggro decks. Have you ever had two active vials, one at 4, one at 3? It allows you to do stupid things.
4. I do in fact like Earwig Squad, but it does not deserve as much credit as you are giving it. Expensive goblins in this deck are tailored towards card advantage, not speed. Seige-Gang Commander is used as an alternate win condition in the face of Moat or a stalled ground game. He also has good synergy with Piledriver, which I still play despite Teeniebopper's convincing arguments that he should be replaced. Ringleader and Wort, the two other >3 mana goblins, are creatures with built-in CA. Earwig Squad does not do this. He should be a one-of, tutorable with Matron, with additional support from the SB so he can come in against certain matchups (like Threshold or combo).
5. Mad Auntie is bad. Even Goblin King got cut from the standard list. Even if a three mana goblin that pumps other goblins needs to be played, such as in an E-plague heavy environment, Goblin King is that goblin. He helps in the Survival and Dragon Stompy matchups better than Mad Auntie ever will. Mountainwalk is superb in those matches, and regeneration is irrelevant.
6. I like Mutavault. It hides goblins in other cards (land). It is starting to prove itself in tribal-themed decks in both standard and extended. In Extended, the goblins deck itself runs four Mutavault. The question is this: Is it better than wasteland? In my environment, every player I play against has 6-7 basics in their decks, minimum. I have beaten them so many times with Wasteland that they are starting to get smarter. So do I replace the Wastelands, which are not as effective with Mutavaults, or do I continue to play the card that has been terrifying other players for three years? The answer - both. And not like you're doing it. I play 6 colorless mana sources. I do not play Wasteland and Mutavault side-by-side. The answer is that certain weeks, I play 4 mutavault and two Ancient Tomb (mana-cheating strategy). Others, I play 4 wasteland and 2 rishadan port. This keeps the fear in other players, while still giving me a power edge over them.
7. Your deck does not have enough removal. 2 Gempalm incinerators and 4 mogg fanatics is simply not enough. You need to be playing between 4-6 two mana creature removal spells. Either play four incinerators, like the decks of old, or play a mix of Warren Weirding and Gempalm. The synergy with Wort is fantastic. Also, this is how you beat the random field. Legacy is a creature-based format (as opposed to vintage), and creature removal is key. You probably are ignoring me by now, but a serious Survival player or a random n00b kid playing zoo will wreck your day some time, and then you will wise up and put more creature removal in your deck.
In short, it seems to me like you took an extended deck (8-warchief goblins) and ported it to a Legacy environment where you are playing under-powered players with sub-par lists. If you are winning in your local area, by all means, please continue. If you plan on playing in a bigger tournament environment, however, please consider all the relevant matchups and input that you are getting on this forum. Remember, the forum is a place for us to discuss deckbuilding and share strategies. It is not the place for players to post a decklist that they have worked on and state useless ultimatums such as this:
For those doubting what I have said. Go ahead with being fools. I have had tournament success with it and everyone in the tournament or in casual/tournament playtesting can sense its power. It is brutal. Mark my words. This is the future list of Competitive Goblins.
This is the new revolutionised Goblins list. I have modified it to be the fastest Goblins list and the best too.
Expect to see it winning everywhere. It is that good.
For those doubting what I have said. Go ahead with being fools. I have had tournament success with it and everyone in the tournament or in casual/tournament playtesting can sense its power. It is brutal. Mark my words. This is the future list of Competitive Goblins.
You spammed this idiocy at the Mana Drain as well, big words for such a sloppy deck list.
If this is the "future list of Competitive Goblins", the future looks very bleak.
Anyways,
Here is a list I made for a teamate who particpaited in a 37 man event this weekend.
Agreed, and I like the list Black Lotus. It looks very consistent, with answers to Goblin's known weaknesses. The fact that it got beat by burn in the semis is more of a statement that the tournament itself wasn't good enough at hating the burn deck out of the Top 8 than anything.
Yeah, I have to ask about the lone copy of weirdings as well. Was that really helpful? I've been trying to run 3, because I want to see it almost every game.
The problem I have with multiple copies of Weirding is that they become infinitely worse if the opponent has more than one creature in play. Removal that gives your opponent options, is bad.
I'm not saying Weirding is bad, but one must be careful when constructing a deck for a particular meta game. In this regard, I knew the area the deck was going to compete in was very aggro heavy, thus the singleton Weirding, and 4x Gempalm.
In addition, Matron can fetch Weirding, and Wort can recur it. If you have not play tested Wort, I strongly recommend you do so.
I would also make note of the importance of Thoughtseize in the board. My teammate played against U/G/r Thresh twice (ironically), utilizing Seize/Pate to great effect. Seize your Goyf, Pate it. Seize your Pyroclasm, Pate it, etc;
The list was very thoroughly tested, and streamlined. As I said, the design follows the tried and tested essence of this Arcetype: Aggro/Control. That is, Mana Denial/Mana Cost Cheating/Swarm, while incorporating new technology.
The cards given to this archetype by the Lorwyn block are truly outstanding, giving Goblins many options.
Do others agreed with this ??
+4 Thoughtseize 2 damage is better than 3 or 4:D
+4 Extirpate I think we all know this is a must v.s. burn
+3 Earwig Squad
The burn player will be throwing burn at you earwig should get threw and steal 9+ damage;) and is a big threat next burn spell will prob go to it..
Great job on the list blacklotus and koodoos to all the fellow little green men players!
I also have played goblins for a few years and strongly agree with the R/G/B list.
I have a few questions about your friend losing to the burn deck what did he side against it???
Game 1 he kept a very mana disruptive hand, with little gas. Waste and Port are bad against Burn.dec, which he did not know he was playing against....his opener against, say Threshold, would have been very good. Anyways, he got crushed.
He kept a very fast hand, and drew multiple Extirpates and Squads.
Game 3 was unfortunate in that he drew no hand disruption, and his opponent resolved 2x Pyroclasm and 1x Flamebreak. He told me the hand he kept and I thought he should have shipped it.
I know this has been done before, I just haven't seen the lists anywhere. In anycase I'm looking for any input I can get. So long as it's based on improving this list rather than just switching over to the standard list. The meta for the tournament isn't extremely competitive, and I'd much rather play something atleast a little outside the norm.
The Sharpshooters should probably be something else, but I'm unsure of what. I've also considered going RGB as Food chain certainly lends itself to it. I've everything for the B splash, except the Badlands, and that will probably stop me from giving it a go.
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I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
I'm not a moderator, but I would probably consider this to be a deck in development for Legacy, and not the current competitive deck. That's not to say I wouldn't like to discuss it, because I certainly like playing this archetype of Goblins. My suggestion would be to create a new thread for this, and let's discuss it there. Agree?
I think that was intended for the list I posted and not for goblins as a whole. And I probably will toss it up in developing, just figured this thread was more or less all encompassing. But I can see where people would prefer to keep this more on the strictly competitive/tested scale.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
I was wondering if anyone knew the matchup Goblins has against Loam... Especially the R/B versions that have recently (since Lorywn, obviously) appeared. I've always played Faerie Stompy but in my Loam-filled meta, that's a rather poor choice. So I'm doubting between starting on Goblins or getting a combo deck next.
Also, for a complete two-color build, what would the minimal/maximal prices be? I haven't got any cards yet, so everything can be counted in.
Edit: the latest list posted by Black Lotus seems good. I was wondering however, aren't there any of the new black Goblins that are worth inclusion in the deck, other than Wort?
Goblins MU isn't very good against Loam decks running 3x D. Dreams md + 4x Burning Wish. Your mana disruption package is kind of useless and Loam is generally pretty good against aggro decks.
Not many of the other Morningtide/Lorwyn goblins are very good, some people like Earwig Squad but everything else so far appears to be weaker than existing options.
ive been out of playing legacy for about 3 years cause the shops out by stopped holding them but i was wondering what bad match ups is gobos having these days? only reason i ask is cause i plan on playing them on at hollywoods pt in may. thanks in advance for the info.
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signature thanks to spiderboy4 Standard
Tired of standard but have R Mono red built Extended RB GOBLIN BEATS Legacy/Vintage RBG GOBLIN BEATS
I'm not a moderator, but I would probably consider this to be a deck in development for Legacy, and not the current competitive deck. That's not to say I wouldn't like to discuss it, because I certainly like playing this archetype of Goblins. My suggestion would be to create a new thread for this, and let's discuss it there. Agree?
Huh?
This deck is still very competitive in it's classic configuration, and regularly is seen in top 8's.
The development lays within finding space for, and testing, new cards in the current block.
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Its a 5/3 for 5 mana and most of the time 2-3 mana.
Nobody really cares about the toughness, just that its above Engineered Plague range and it cant be Pyroclasmed.
The moment it is prowled, it removes 3 crucial cards.
In a Threshold matchup, removing 3 Tarmogoyfs means that you have 3 less stuff to worry about. After all, Goyf is the only thing goblins really fear. The rest can be traded threat for threat.
The difference between it and Wort is, Wort requires you to make it live to your upkeep. Any idiot knows that he has to counter or kill Wort before your next upkeep.
Wort is not good for early game. It returns nothing if nothing is in your graveyard. Spending R just to return a Mogg Fanatic is not exactly what Goblins has in mind. Legacy is a fast format. Games are decided most of the time by turn 2-4. Wort is a creature that is turn 4 and above effective.
Trading a Earwig Squad for a Tarmogoyf in combat is EXACTLY what Goblins has in mind. Goblins have more threats then Threshold. Trading ALWAYS work in Goblins favour. Threshold's threats are very valuable to them. Making them lose them via prowling Earwig or trading it with goyf is good.
Besides, it hits for 5. 5 is a lot of damage. 1/4 of your opponent's life.
For your info,
This is the new revolutionised Goblins list. I have modified it to be the fastest Goblins list and the best too.
Expect to see it winning everywhere. It is that good.
4 Mutavault
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg War Marshal
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Mad Auntie
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Earwig Squad
1 Chrome Mox
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Earwig Squad
4 AEther Vial
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
Aside from the mainstays, some stuff here and there in maindeck and sideboard can change accordingly to whatever metagame you are in.
Rishadan Port and Wasteland are only good if you are ahead in the tempo race. If you are behind, they suck. They also suck if your opponent happen to draw more lands than usual.
Aether Vial is only good for the control matchup, against decks like with Trinisphere and the likes. They are also only good vs Counterbalance + Top. Most of the time, they only serve to slow the deck down.
Frogtosser Banneret is as good as Goblin Warchief can be. It is one of the key pieces to how and why this deck wins so easily and can empty its hand so fast. It also makes Earwig Squad so much better. Expect to see people countering this card or killing it before your turn 3. It is that good. I would almost always recommend playing it on turn 2 to bait out counters or just to speed up your deck entirely.
Mad Auntie can regenerate Goblins. It makes combat for other decks with creatures hard. It pumps your Goblins. It can be cast for as low as B mana.
Earwig Squad is is as good as I have just said. In this deck, it is insanely good.
You almost always spend 2 mana to prowl it. Or 4 mana to hardcast it.
Mutavault is a Goblin. It is a mana sink and an additional creature. You will come to realise how good they are.
This deck, unllike the builds of all of yours, focuses on speed. It has a strict curve. 8 turn 1 drops, (9 if you include Chrome Mox) 9 turn 2 drops. Everything is as aggro as it can get.
For those doubting what I have said. Go ahead with being fools. I have had tournament success with it and everyone in the tournament or in casual/tournament playtesting can sense its power. It is brutal. Mark my words. This is the future list of Competitive Goblins.
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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1x Thoughtseize in the board? What decks are you boarding this in against that it is better than Duress? I understand that Thoughtseize is a better md choice, but it seems weak in the board.
Because having a late game is bad? Between properly built Legacy decks most games are not decided between turns 2-4. There is a lot of interaction between most decks in Legacy and few games (outside of combo) are decided on the second turn. Free counters and cheap sweepers make balls to the walls aggro not so great in Legacy.
Also please don't say your deck is the fastest build of Goblins when it obviously isn't. You have the exact same amount of turn 3 kills as the standard goblin list, and the fastest ones won't be running 3 mana 1/1s.
Why is the fact that its a mana sink relevant?
Warchief is much better, not to say that Banneret is bad, but haste is extremely relevant to goblins.
Looking at the needs of your deck, is Chrome Mox any better than say Lotus Petal in that slot? As a one of your not reliably getting it on turn 1 (which is just about the only time you'd want it), and with 8 bannerets/warchiefs, you really only need the mana boost once. Can you really afford losing that extra card?
EDIT: Just noticed this
Aether Vial is only good for the control matchup, against decks like with Trinisphere and the likes. They are also only good vs Counterbalance + Top. Most of the time, they only serve to slow the deck down.
Guess what the deck that is most widely accepted best deck in the format runs, Countertop. What MUs are you improving that really warrant these changes?
How big were these tourneys? Do you have links to T8 results?
Round 1 Threshold 2-0
Round 2 BUG Threshold 2-0
Round 3 Counterbalance Threshold 2-0 (I won this one when opponent had a Mongoose, an Enforcer with Threshold and a top and counterbalance lockdown when I had 1 creature in play and 1 mutavault)
Round 4 Dragon Stompy 2-1
Round 5 UG Madness 1-0
I lost to Madness in the quarterfinals to a topdecked wonder.
Banneret is the sole reason why this deck runs so fast and so well. Did you test this build even commenting anything? Bannerets smooths out the curve so well, that nearly every game I was able to play a creature every turn. Not to mention that Bannerets speeds up the deck so fast.
Bannerets were one reason why I still managed to go so fast even when there is a Chill in play against Round 2 Game 2. The opponent commented about that, his Chills were essentially useless when the Bannerets finally resolves, it nulls the effect for the Chills.
I won Countertop without Vials game 1. He had a good hand with top and balance in his hand with abundant counters. With the correct play you can still win this matchup even without vials. The build is so fast that the top was trying to catchup with it. He only managed to lock me, after I prowled a Squad for 3 Goyfs, Gempalmed his 4th and hit him till a single life before he locked me. He was having problems trying to lock me still, pondering then shuffling his deck trying to find answers etc. A well placed Goblin lackey as a bait and another Goblin sealed the game. The only reason why I won this deck was because of Mutavaults. Nothing else. He had a 6/6 flyer and 3/3 creature. I beat him fast with the squad before he found a stp to it, that already brought him to one life.
This is especially true when I was running this deck. I cut 4 thorn of amethyst in the sb to make way for 4 rebs, which was a good call since threshold had a good chuck of the meta that day. Something I'm thinking of doing is to cut 1 mogg war marshal to make way for a Eagwig card. As before this card is extremely powerful. It should'nt be underestimated.
Seems you are really biased against the squad. Its a MVP when I ran the deck. I always get it prowled out, 3 mana (maybe even less), take 3 threats and a 5/3 to boot and you think Squads should'nt be ran? Most games I removed 3 goyfs, killed the 4th. Thats a threat that is wiped out just by the card. In what way this card is not powerful? If the opponent does'nt kill the squad, its either a swap or 5 points of damage every turn.
It would be good if you'll actually test out this deck, and run it in a tournament. You will be surprised how effective the deck it. I essentially just wrecked through my swiss rounds. I only lost 1 game and had a game where I could'nt win easily and another an opponent (hes at 5 and I'm at 7) was hoping for a topdeck while I hold my position against him, killing him when his topdeck does'nt come out. Thats 1/9 games lost and 1/3 of games that I had difficulty winning, and of that due to right plays I won it.
You can ask Jhoria how much I doubted the build beforehand, and my attitude to it after running it. Note that I was playing a self built variant of QSI beforehand, TES and Iggy Pop too. I have never ran goblins in Legacy, never playtested with it at all. only time I ran Goblins was at a GP in 2005 extended season.
I never said Banneret wasn't good, just that Warchief is better.
If you take a look at the mana curve of your version or even the standard version Countertop is pretty useless vs. you. Whomever your playing against should almost always side it out for more effective cards. I only brought it up because Jhoira mentioned that one of the "few" instances where vial is good, is against Countertop.
Yes I am biased against Squad since in testing it has been worse than the 2 cards its fighting for slots with, SGC and Wort. It is probably better than Wort in a pure speed oriented build, but if your going for speed without md disruption why not go all the way?
Also do you have a link to the other t8 decklists?
1. I play Goblins. Extensively. I have played Goblins for three years, consistently and have tested every color splash and every viable card. I play at a *weekly* Sunday Legacy tournament, and have traveled to bigger tournaments recently such as TMLO III. This statement is to give credence to my next few points.
2. I have play-tested Wort, Bogart Auntie (not to be confused with Wort, the Raidmother) and can tell you that she will win games for you. She is excellent in the long game, and if you can cheat her in, it's just sexual. One of my favorite plays in legacy (besides belch you for 33) goes like this:
- Mountain, Lackey
- Badlands, Warren Weirding your 'goyf, swing, drop in Wort
- Wort back weirding, weirding your dude, swing with lackey and Wort, drop in goblin...
She wins games.
3. The format in general, and this deck specifically, revolves around cheating mana. In legacy, nobody pays the full fair cost of to counter your spell. Nobody pays the fair cost for a 4/5 creature. This means that I agree with your assessment of the Frogtosser. It helps the core of this deck achieve its goal. It also means that I specifically disagree with your denouncement of Aether Vial. Three classic cards are the grease that has made slippery little goblins spill out on the table since the deck started winning tournaments: Goblin Lackey, Goblin Warchief, and Aether Vial. All three cards help Goblins skirt around paying retail for SGCs and Ringleaders. Aether Vial is tested and proven. They are good against control (such as counterspells or prison strategies), I agree - but I don't side them out against other aggro decks. Have you ever had two active vials, one at 4, one at 3? It allows you to do stupid things.
4. I do in fact like Earwig Squad, but it does not deserve as much credit as you are giving it. Expensive goblins in this deck are tailored towards card advantage, not speed. Seige-Gang Commander is used as an alternate win condition in the face of Moat or a stalled ground game. He also has good synergy with Piledriver, which I still play despite Teeniebopper's convincing arguments that he should be replaced. Ringleader and Wort, the two other >3 mana goblins, are creatures with built-in CA. Earwig Squad does not do this. He should be a one-of, tutorable with Matron, with additional support from the SB so he can come in against certain matchups (like Threshold or combo).
5. Mad Auntie is bad. Even Goblin King got cut from the standard list. Even if a three mana goblin that pumps other goblins needs to be played, such as in an E-plague heavy environment, Goblin King is that goblin. He helps in the Survival and Dragon Stompy matchups better than Mad Auntie ever will. Mountainwalk is superb in those matches, and regeneration is irrelevant.
6. I like Mutavault. It hides goblins in other cards (land). It is starting to prove itself in tribal-themed decks in both standard and extended. In Extended, the goblins deck itself runs four Mutavault. The question is this: Is it better than wasteland? In my environment, every player I play against has 6-7 basics in their decks, minimum. I have beaten them so many times with Wasteland that they are starting to get smarter. So do I replace the Wastelands, which are not as effective with Mutavaults, or do I continue to play the card that has been terrifying other players for three years? The answer - both. And not like you're doing it. I play 6 colorless mana sources. I do not play Wasteland and Mutavault side-by-side. The answer is that certain weeks, I play 4 mutavault and two Ancient Tomb (mana-cheating strategy). Others, I play 4 wasteland and 2 rishadan port. This keeps the fear in other players, while still giving me a power edge over them.
7. Your deck does not have enough removal. 2 Gempalm incinerators and 4 mogg fanatics is simply not enough. You need to be playing between 4-6 two mana creature removal spells. Either play four incinerators, like the decks of old, or play a mix of Warren Weirding and Gempalm. The synergy with Wort is fantastic. Also, this is how you beat the random field. Legacy is a creature-based format (as opposed to vintage), and creature removal is key. You probably are ignoring me by now, but a serious Survival player or a random n00b kid playing zoo will wreck your day some time, and then you will wise up and put more creature removal in your deck.
In short, it seems to me like you took an extended deck (8-warchief goblins) and ported it to a Legacy environment where you are playing under-powered players with sub-par lists. If you are winning in your local area, by all means, please continue. If you plan on playing in a bigger tournament environment, however, please consider all the relevant matchups and input that you are getting on this forum. Remember, the forum is a place for us to discuss deckbuilding and share strategies. It is not the place for players to post a decklist that they have worked on and state useless ultimatums such as this:
[High~Light Studios]
You spammed this idiocy at the Mana Drain as well, big words for such a sloppy deck list.
If this is the "future list of Competitive Goblins", the future looks very bleak.
Anyways,
Here is a list I made for a teamate who particpaited in a 37 man event this weekend.
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 AEther Vial
1 Warren Weirding
3 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate
He cruised through the Swiss rounds going undefeated, and lost to Burn.dec in the Semis....
I think someone of you have really forgotten why this archetype is, and will continue to be so good: Mana Denial/Mana Cheating.
I'm not sure why people are focused on making the deck "fast". By trying to make the deck "faster", people are cutting consistency.
Thanks for your support.
[High~Light Studios]
Modern: URStormUR|BRGW Jund BRGW|GWUB Gifts GWUB
Commander:XKarnX
Cubes: Level 1: Pauper
I'm not saying Weirding is bad, but one must be careful when constructing a deck for a particular meta game. In this regard, I knew the area the deck was going to compete in was very aggro heavy, thus the singleton Weirding, and 4x Gempalm.
In addition, Matron can fetch Weirding, and Wort can recur it. If you have not play tested Wort, I strongly recommend you do so.
I would also make note of the importance of Thoughtseize in the board. My teammate played against U/G/r Thresh twice (ironically), utilizing Seize/Pate to great effect. Seize your Goyf, Pate it. Seize your Pyroclasm, Pate it, etc;
The list was very thoroughly tested, and streamlined. As I said, the design follows the tried and tested essence of this Arcetype: Aggro/Control. That is, Mana Denial/Mana Cost Cheating/Swarm, while incorporating new technology.
The cards given to this archetype by the Lorwyn block are truly outstanding, giving Goblins many options.
I also have played goblins for a few years and strongly agree with the R/G/B list.
I have a few questions about your friend losing to the burn deck what did he side against it???
I would have sided like this :
-4 Gempalm Incinerator
-1 Warren Weirding
-2 Goblin Ringleader
-1 Mogg Fanatic
-2 Siege-Gang Commander
-1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Extirpate
+3 Earwig Squad
Do others agreed with this ??
+4 Thoughtseize 2 damage is better than 3 or 4:D
+4 Extirpate I think we all know this is a must v.s. burn
+3 Earwig Squad
The burn player will be throwing burn at you earwig should get threw and steal 9+ damage;) and is a big threat next burn spell will prob go to it..
again was this the sb switch he used?
Game 1 he kept a very mana disruptive hand, with little gas. Waste and Port are bad against Burn.dec, which he did not know he was playing against....his opener against, say Threshold, would have been very good. Anyways, he got crushed.
Game 2 he boarded as follows:
-1 Warren Weirding
-4 Gempalm Incinerator
-4 Aether Vial
-2 Siege-Gang
+4 Thoughtseize
+4 Extirpate
+3 Earwig
He kept a very fast hand, and drew multiple Extirpates and Squads.
Game 3 was unfortunate in that he drew no hand disruption, and his opponent resolved 2x Pyroclasm and 1x Flamebreak. He told me the hand he kept and I thought he should have shipped it.
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
8x Mountain
3x Ancient Tomb
2x Chrome Mox
4x Foodcahin
Gobs
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Skirk Prospector
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
3x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Seige-Gang Commander
I know this has been done before, I just haven't seen the lists anywhere. In anycase I'm looking for any input I can get. So long as it's based on improving this list rather than just switching over to the standard list. The meta for the tournament isn't extremely competitive, and I'd much rather play something atleast a little outside the norm.
The Sharpshooters should probably be something else, but I'm unsure of what. I've also considered going RGB as Food chain certainly lends itself to it. I've everything for the B splash, except the Badlands, and that will probably stop me from giving it a go.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
[High~Light Studios]
Hence the development that's being worked on in this very thread.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Goblins MU isn't very good against Loam decks running 3x D. Dreams md + 4x Burning Wish. Your mana disruption package is kind of useless and Loam is generally pretty good against aggro decks.
Not many of the other Morningtide/Lorwyn goblins are very good, some people like Earwig Squad but everything else so far appears to be weaker than existing options.
signature thanks to spiderboy4
Standard
Tired of standard but have R Mono red built
Extended
RB GOBLIN BEATS
Legacy/Vintage
RBG GOBLIN BEATS
Huh?
This deck is still very competitive in it's classic configuration, and regularly is seen in top 8's.
The development lays within finding space for, and testing, new cards in the current block.