I don't think that Dralnu's Crusade is really any stronger than Mad Auntie. The regeneration can be surprisingly useful, and it can attack. It also has the added bonus of not decreasing your goblin count.
I don't think that Dralnu's Crusade is really any stronger than Mad Auntie. The regeneration can be surprisingly useful, and it can attack. It also has the added bonus of not decreasing your goblin count.
I thought the original reason black-splash goblins ran Crusade was to counter-act Engineered Plague. As it didn't require the double red of Goblin king, and it wasn't a creature so it was harder for decks packing E Plague to get rid of. Plus King wasn't a Goblin back then either.
I'd think Auntie at an easier effective cost, and being a goblin (for the searchables) would be more or less a shoe in over Crusade nowadays. Though I personally still prefer the Mountainwalk from King. It can be surprisingly effective with Blood Moon.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
You know, clearly Mad Auntie is a powerful card. But I have to ask what matchups it improves. As I see things, this deck's most difficult matchups are going to be Threshold and combo. I don't see Mad Auntie doing as much as some of the other new options in either case. She doesn't kill Tarmos and she doesn't kill combos.
On that front, I am interested in using Earwig Squad to pull off the combo win. And I want to use Chrome Mox to speed up its entry.
I find it hard to believe that nobody else is talking about Earwig Squad. It seems to solve several problems at once. It's big body makes for a heckuva a nasty drop off of a Lackey, and the fact that you can potentially bring it in with Prowl on turn two even with only a Fanatic strike makes it even more likely to be a factor against combo and stuff like Loam decks. Furthermore, removing three Tarmos goes a long way to beating Threshold.
I would really like to hear what other think about this. It seems so obvious to me, but the fact that no one else is talking about it this long after the release concerns me a bit.
You know, clearly Mad Auntie is a powerful card. But I have to ask what matchups it improves. As I see things, this deck's most difficult matchups are going to be Threshold and combo. I don't see Mad Auntie doing as much as some of the other new options in either case. She doesn't kill Tarmos and she doesn't kill combos.
On that front, I am interested in using Earwig Squad to pull off the combo win. And I want to use Chrome Mox to speed up its entry.
I find it hard to believe that nobody else is talking about Earwig Squad. It seems to solve several problems at once. It's big body makes for a heckuva a nasty drop off of a Lackey, and the fact that you can potentially bring it in with Prowl on turn two even with only a Fanatic strike makes it even more likely to be a factor against combo and stuff like Loam decks. Furthermore, removing three Tarmos goes a long way to beating Threshold.
I would really like to hear what other think about this. It seems so obvious to me, but the fact that no one else is talking about it this long after the release concerns me a bit.
Squad's main disadvantage is that you can't get its effect through Vial or Lackey. Besides that it really only improves your combo MU, not really having much of an effect on other MUs. Removing three cards can be nice in other MUs but I'd rather drop an SGC and win more often than I'd want Squad.
Also you talk about how beating Thresh is a major concern, but you don't max out on Warren Weirdings. Weirding is amazing, against quite a few decks, but especially Thresh since they run so few threats.
I would definitely run 1-2x Wort. If Wort stays active for a turn or 2 you're almost sure to win. And Wort doesn't just help when your in an already good situation, after a sweeper you can rebuild much faster with Wort returning things like Warchiefs and Ringleaders.
Also how has your mana base been working for you? You run fewers sources than the more traditional builds, and have built in card disadvantage from Mox.
I have never used the deck. But I think 22 sources is pretty standard. With the Weirdings, you don't get a card like you do with Incinerator, and it can be countered, and it isn't an instant, etc. so I am betting that you occasionally want one and occasionally the other. Thresh isn't the only opponent after all.
I'd rather have SGC over Wort, anytime.
Personal preference, I guess.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Unless you have a ton of weenie decks in your meta Weirding is probably better. I'm not saying run no Incinerators, because they are very good but with Thresh as the top deck Weirdings are better.
22 mana sources is not standard. 23-24 is, and thats in builds with no moxes only lands. I'm not saying running less mana won't work, but I'd hesitate to cut 4-5 lands for 3 moxes. Mox is the kind of card you want in decks that want to hit 3 mana ASAP, usually completely skipping over the 1cc or 2cc slot. Goblins has a more well rounded curve and your usually using your mana almost every turn. I'm not convinced that the mana boost is worth the card it costs in here.
Comparing SGC to Wort is kind of apples to oranges. Compare what SGC
does to Wort.
SGC:
-Provides an alt. win against things like Moat.
-Enables the turn 3 win
-Gives you time to win against Goyfs
-Works well with Piledriver and Incinerator
Wort:
- Evasive attacker
- Generates CA
- Takes you out of top deck mode
- Lets you recover much faster against sweepers
I wouldn't take out SGC for Wort (at least not all of them). But I'd rather have Wort than say Earwig Squad.
What's the SGC turn 3 win? I'm not saying I don't believe it, I just don't know what it is / I'm too lazy to figure it out myself. When I think turn 3 win I think Kiki-Jiki.
On that line of thought, where does kiki fit in with the rest of these higher cost goblins? I only play this deck from time to time, as I own the cards to play FCG in Vintage. So I build it from time to time, and take it apart afterwards. I know how goblins runs on the whole, but I was never really sure how kiki fit in with the rest.
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Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
T1 Lackey, Turn 2 Piledriver and drop SGC off of Lackey, T3 play Warchief and swing with everything.
Right now Kiki isn't run in very many lists. It was usually played to make your other high cc cards even better or make another Piledriver and beat. But people are moving more towards Wort/SGC/utility creature in that slot.
I'm comparing Wort to SGC because they fill the same slots: 4cc+ creatures. I dig a singleton tutorable Earwig Squad. Shin(whatevertherest) goes a long way of telling why it's good in his Rogue primer. It allows you to see the precise decklist of your opponent, which is good information to have. Then it swings for a lot. I found Wort's recusivity ability not as useful.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I'm comparing Wort to SGC because they fill the same slots: 4cc+ creatures. I dig a singleton tutorable Earwig Squad. Shin(whatevertherest) goes a long way of telling why it's good in his Rogue primer. It allows you to see the precise decklist of your opponent, which is good information to have. Then it swings for a lot. I found Wort's recusivity ability not as useful.
Earwig squad doesn't actually swing for a lot, it at best trades with Tarmogoyf or just gets its ass handed to it. Its backside of 3 isn't helping it either making it extremely vulnerable to not only StP but red removal also. Knowing a precise decklist would really only be helpful against random decks. Decks in your meta/netdecks you should know well enough that Earwig Squads information gain is largely negligible. Removing 3 cards from a deck that there was a fairly good chance they were never going to see anyways isn't so great, unless your removing their only win conditions, which would be a fairly small portion of Legacy decks (that use only 3 win conditions). Its a classic argument of cards that effect the immediate game-state vs. ones that don't. In goblins I'd almost always rather have the one that changes the game state. Wort is basically drawing you an extra card a turn, except you get to choose what it is. Cruel Edict might not be very strong, but Cruel Edict every turn is. And recurring your cards at the top of the curve gets ridiculous (SGC, Ringleader). Wort even lets you get more use out of utility cards.
I think that Earwig squad is a meta card at best. And that Worts raw power is better in the majority of situations.
Yeah, whatever...
I disagree with you on Wort/Squad. Your basically reapeating me the arguments that were mentioned before as if I couldn't read. Diff' folks, diff' strokes.
Warren's Wierding is just so aweful in the mirror that it makes me want to cry. I realise the nice SGC tricks you can make (cast warren wierding on yourself, target a goblin, blow it to SGC in response, get 2 free tokens anyway) but it's not enough for me to want to run it.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
Unless you have a ton of weenie decks in your meta Weirding is probably better. I'm not saying run no Incinerators, because they are very good but with Thresh as the top deck Weirdings are better.
22 mana sources is not standard. 23-24 is, and thats in builds with no moxes only lands. I'm not saying running less mana won't work, but I'd hesitate to cut 4-5 lands for 3 moxes. Mox is the kind of card you want in decks that want to hit 3 mana ASAP, usually completely skipping over the 1cc or 2cc slot. Goblins has a more well rounded curve and your usually using your mana almost every turn. I'm not convinced that the mana boost is worth the card it costs in here.
Interesting. I don't think I have ever seen a Goblin decklist with 24 mana sources. But OK, your point is taken. I especially like the logic of rushing to the 3-drop part. That is, in fact what I am attempting to do with this change. Yes, it puts a strain on the deck the way Chrom Mox can, but there is no denying that THAT play will be huge against Loam, TES, and Landstill for starters. Do it twice and the game is probably over. Yes, it's not optimal against aggro, but who cares? You are going to beat those opponents anyway.
EDIT: Ehh, maybe it isn't the way to go. But it clearly has the potential to be. We are talking about a card that does what no other Goblin ever printed does. Not pursuing the possibility to its conclusion would be foolish.
Just so you know that trick doesn't work. You would just end up having to sac a different creature.
Squad is only good when your ahead on the board, otherwise its a vanilla 5/3 for 5 mana. I'd rather play a card that helps when your behind or ahead. If Goyf didn't exist I'd be much more inclined to play Squad. If you want to fine.
How common is the mirror still? I almost never play against goblins anymore, and if I do it is against BR running Weirding anyways. I think that beating Threshold is much more important than trying to gain an edge in the mirror.
Yeah, this is along the lines of what I have been thinking. I am interested in why Fodder Launch over Wierding, though. I really think that Earwig Squad deserves some testing. I wish I had more to offer than words here.
I think the Goblin Goon is there to replace Piledriver since it can survive better in the metagoyf.
Im guessing that they are worried about CB-Top and Spell Snare or something... Basically they dropped the two 2cc Spells from the deck ( Weirding and Driver) and replaced then with 4cc spells. Yeah, he does still run Tin street, but I'd argue thats for a different matchup and that he still runs tinkerer.
Going to start testing out earwig squad.
Thresh run such a low threat amount that nabbing 3-6 of them in a single game is going to be huge.
1) It wouldn't replace Mad Auntie
2) They're still goblins, just goblin zombies.
I'd think Auntie at an easier effective cost, and being a goblin (for the searchables) would be more or less a shoe in over Crusade nowadays. Though I personally still prefer the Mountainwalk from King. It can be surprisingly effective with Blood Moon.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
On that front, I am interested in using Earwig Squad to pull off the combo win. And I want to use Chrome Mox to speed up its entry.
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
Black
3 Warren Weirding
2 Earwig Squad
4 Aether Vial
3 Chrome Mox
Land
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Earwig Squad
4 Duress
3 Goblin Tinkerer
2 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
I find it hard to believe that nobody else is talking about Earwig Squad. It seems to solve several problems at once. It's big body makes for a heckuva a nasty drop off of a Lackey, and the fact that you can potentially bring it in with Prowl on turn two even with only a Fanatic strike makes it even more likely to be a factor against combo and stuff like Loam decks. Furthermore, removing three Tarmos goes a long way to beating Threshold.
I would really like to hear what other think about this. It seems so obvious to me, but the fact that no one else is talking about it this long after the release concerns me a bit.
Squad's main disadvantage is that you can't get its effect through Vial or Lackey. Besides that it really only improves your combo MU, not really having much of an effect on other MUs. Removing three cards can be nice in other MUs but I'd rather drop an SGC and win more often than I'd want Squad.
Also you talk about how beating Thresh is a major concern, but you don't max out on Warren Weirdings. Weirding is amazing, against quite a few decks, but especially Thresh since they run so few threats.
I would definitely run 1-2x Wort. If Wort stays active for a turn or 2 you're almost sure to win. And Wort doesn't just help when your in an already good situation, after a sweeper you can rebuild much faster with Wort returning things like Warchiefs and Ringleaders.
Also how has your mana base been working for you? You run fewers sources than the more traditional builds, and have built in card disadvantage from Mox.
Personal preference, I guess.
22 mana sources is not standard. 23-24 is, and thats in builds with no moxes only lands. I'm not saying running less mana won't work, but I'd hesitate to cut 4-5 lands for 3 moxes. Mox is the kind of card you want in decks that want to hit 3 mana ASAP, usually completely skipping over the 1cc or 2cc slot. Goblins has a more well rounded curve and your usually using your mana almost every turn. I'm not convinced that the mana boost is worth the card it costs in here.
Comparing SGC to Wort is kind of apples to oranges. Compare what SGC
does to Wort.
SGC:
-Provides an alt. win against things like Moat.
-Enables the turn 3 win
-Gives you time to win against Goyfs
-Works well with Piledriver and Incinerator
Wort:
- Evasive attacker
- Generates CA
- Takes you out of top deck mode
- Lets you recover much faster against sweepers
I wouldn't take out SGC for Wort (at least not all of them). But I'd rather have Wort than say Earwig Squad.
On that line of thought, where does kiki fit in with the rest of these higher cost goblins? I only play this deck from time to time, as I own the cards to play FCG in Vintage. So I build it from time to time, and take it apart afterwards. I know how goblins runs on the whole, but I was never really sure how kiki fit in with the rest.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Right now Kiki isn't run in very many lists. It was usually played to make your other high cc cards even better or make another Piledriver and beat. But people are moving more towards Wort/SGC/utility creature in that slot.
Earwig squad doesn't actually swing for a lot, it at best trades with Tarmogoyf or just gets its ass handed to it. Its backside of 3 isn't helping it either making it extremely vulnerable to not only StP but red removal also. Knowing a precise decklist would really only be helpful against random decks. Decks in your meta/netdecks you should know well enough that Earwig Squads information gain is largely negligible. Removing 3 cards from a deck that there was a fairly good chance they were never going to see anyways isn't so great, unless your removing their only win conditions, which would be a fairly small portion of Legacy decks (that use only 3 win conditions). Its a classic argument of cards that effect the immediate game-state vs. ones that don't. In goblins I'd almost always rather have the one that changes the game state. Wort is basically drawing you an extra card a turn, except you get to choose what it is. Cruel Edict might not be very strong, but Cruel Edict every turn is. And recurring your cards at the top of the curve gets ridiculous (SGC, Ringleader). Wort even lets you get more use out of utility cards.
I think that Earwig squad is a meta card at best. And that Worts raw power is better in the majority of situations.
I disagree with you on Wort/Squad. Your basically reapeating me the arguments that were mentioned before as if I couldn't read. Diff' folks, diff' strokes.
Warren's Wierding is just so aweful in the mirror that it makes me want to cry. I realise the nice SGC tricks you can make (cast warren wierding on yourself, target a goblin, blow it to SGC in response, get 2 free tokens anyway) but it's not enough for me to want to run it.
EDIT: Ehh, maybe it isn't the way to go. But it clearly has the potential to be. We are talking about a card that does what no other Goblin ever printed does. Not pursuing the possibility to its conclusion would be foolish.
Squad is only good when your ahead on the board, otherwise its a vanilla 5/3 for 5 mana. I'd rather play a card that helps when your behind or ahead. If Goyf didn't exist I'd be much more inclined to play Squad. If you want to fine.
How common is the mirror still? I almost never play against goblins anymore, and if I do it is against BR running Weirding anyways. I think that beating Threshold is much more important than trying to gain an edge in the mirror.
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3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Goon
3 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 AEther Vial
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Fodder Launch
Like the list, looks very fast. But why not Goblin Piledriver?
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I think the Goblin Goon is there to replace Piledriver since it can survive better in the metagoyf.
Going to start testing out earwig squad.
Thresh run such a low threat amount that nabbing 3-6 of them in a single game is going to be huge.
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