Some thoughts on the state of goblins after some heavy testing sessions with my team and local pro's:
1) Thorn of Amethyst is insane. Perhaps the greatest boon for this archetype in long time. Gives you MD, colorless disruption against combo and control, simply amazing card. I would not take Goblins to a big event unless this was in the list.
2) Tarmogoyf. With Thorn and Vial, you have no real reason (other than it is not a goblin) not to run this guy. Simple as that.
3) I believe Goblins need's to be a double splash. R/g/b. More on that later.
4) The Lorwyn Goblins are garbage.
5) Mana disruption was, is, and has become much more important for this deck to be competitive.
For the inclusion of 4x Thorn and 4x Goyf, we made the following cut's to the "Core":
-2x Gempalm Incinerator:
The meta is such that this guy just is not worth 4x slot's. Especially if you want to run 4x Thorn and 4x Goyf.
-1 Mogg Fanatic:
Cutting this by 1 to facilitate the inclusion of the new additions seems very reasonable.
-1 Goblin Ringleader:
With 8x non-goblin cards coming in, cutting him by 1 is fine.
-1 Goblin Matron:
Cutting her by 1 sucks, it was either her, or a land. I will only play this deck with 23 land, so she had to be clipped a bit.
About the board:
Thoughtseize is pretty self explanatory. Very flexible against the meta.
Deathmark. I wanted to try this for a long time. In my opnion, it is very good. Kills Goyf, Mages, Grunts, Dryads, BTS, etc; essentially creatures that mess with Goblins, and for a very small mana investment.
This list looks good. I think I'll make a few tweaks when I try it, but looks like it's a solid new direction for goblins. I've currently shelved this deck in favor of white stax, but I know that my friends would be interested in borrowing a deck from me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
We should all be grateful for what has been given to us by... our benefactors.
I just went to a quick tournament with a R/w/b Goblins list. I hadn't tested once beforehand, as I usually play thresh, but I still managed to go 2 and 2. In any event, it wasn't my deck but the list was fairly interesting.
Crib Swap was mad tech, all day. I busted so many Goyf's with that card. It can be tutored with Matron and played for 1 less with Warchief. Hell, you can play it off Lackey or Ringleader.
The black splash Sideboard was also great. I tore up Thresh with it, and no one was expecting it as I would play only Plateaus game one. The reason I only went 2-2 was because I was expecting a lot of thresh/counterslivers, and instead there was a lot of Goblins/Burn.
I just went to a quick tournament with a R/w/b Goblins list. I hadn't tested once beforehand, as I usually play thresh, but I still managed to go 2 and 2. In any event, it wasn't my deck but the list was fairly interesting.
Crib Swap was mad tech, all day. I busted so many Goyf's with that card. It can be tutored with Matron and played for 1 less with Warchief. Hell, you can play it off Lackey or Ringleader.
The black splash Sideboard was also great. I tore up Thresh with it, and no one was expecting it as I would play only Plateaus game one. The reason I only went 2-2 was because I was expecting a lot of thresh/counterslivers, and instead there was a lot of Goblins/Burn.
Crib Swap can't be played off Lackey. Lackey's errata says "Goblin permanent", so you're out of luck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
It is still tutorable with matron, and you put it in your hand with ringleader, and it costs one less with Warchief, so I wouldn't say he is out of luck, I'm just not sure it is good enough to play in the first place.
Yeah, it's debatable. Crib Swap could easily be replaced by StP, however, I think the pros outweigh the con. Really, against Thresh, CS gives you 7 ways to kill Goyf (Matron + Crib Swap) and StP gives 3. Also, when racing an opponent, I'd rather not give them more life.
In the matchup against Thresh, CS really helped. My first was countered, but I tutored up another and killed his Goyf, at which point, he scooped.
It is still tutorable with matron, and you put it in your hand with ringleader, and it costs one less with Warchief, so I wouldn't say he is out of luck, I'm just not sure it is good enough to play in the first place.
I just meant in terms of playing it off Lackey, that's all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Would it be a good idea to MD Leyline of the Voidx 4 as Threshold is dominating the whole environment? Actually, Planar Void comes into my mind too, but I am just betting on Leyline in the opening hand, because I don't think Threshold player will allow Leyline being casted at all..So due to "begin the game with it in play" ability, I would try to MD x 4
In that case , I may have the following changes to the deck posted on page 2.. -4 Tarmogoyf (coz Leyline weakens goyf) +2 Gempalm Incinerator +1 Ringleader + 1 Matron
Crib Swap was mad tech, all day. I busted so many Goyf's with that card. It can be tutored with Matron and played for 1 less with Warchief. Hell, you can play it off Lackey or Ringleader.
Crib Swap is very bad, especially main deck.
You never want to waste a Matron tutoring for expensive, clumsy removal.
Ok guy's, after some more meta testing, and tweaking, I have developed a list that I would run if I were to play Gob's at a tourny. I have also included some observations about the archetype.
(Note: The Side Board always changes, from event to event. Know your local Meta, and study the top decks.)
This list stays as true to the Vial Goblins core, while adding a MUCH needed, all purpose answer to a variety of decks in Thoughtseize.
At first, I thought Thorn of Amethyst was going to really help this deck, It didn't. Yes Thorn ruins combo, however, with a Thresh heavy meta, combo is next to dead. Also, to make Thorn work, it need's to stick Turn 1 before deck's can respond or recover, this deck simply can not do that effectively. Thorn clogs up the deck with more 2-drops, really slowing down our tempo. Threshold laughs at Thorn, it does not hinder their creatures, and makes Bolt/Swords/Fire/Ice cost 1 more, big deal...
Thoughtseize on the other hand is absolutely insane. As each day passes, it makes more and more sense why this was printed as a rare. It serves a purpose against ANY deck in the meta game. Nails those Goyfs, Plagues, Wrath's, Moat, etc; etc;
Oh, I thought Exalted Angel is the main beater for Stax, but it seems like I was wrong. That's why I put Deathmark into my Goblin SB.
Well, it is for white stax, but if they've gotten to the point where they feel comfortable dropping it, then they've won already and killing it will just slow the game down while they wait to draw another.
I also tested Thorns of Amethysts MD, and was similarly unsatisfied. However, they're good enough against thresh and combo to get a spot on my SB.
I'm also debating between 2x SGC or 1x SGC 1x Kiki-Jiki. Kiki is just such a house with Ringleader and Piledriver that it's somewhat ridiculous, yet since I'm running 4x StP I don't have room for both.
Thoughts?
I've always prefered 2x SGC, 1x Kiki, even when running a white splash I only run 3 StP main, and 1 in the board. But if you can only fit 2, I'd say stick to the 2 Sieges.
And for the record: niché isn't a word... like, not even in french... just puting it out there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Ah, well then, I've never used any for of the word as a verb, but participe passé makes sense. Hell it's been years since I've actually had to speak french, so what do I know.
Anyways, qualifying this post...
Has anyone managed any reasonable results with any of the new goblins from Lorwyn? I remeber them coming up in discussion, but either I missed it, or everyone just kind of lost interest. Care to inform me on this? (I'm refering mainly to the black ones; Knucklebone Witch, Boggart Mob, and to a lesser extent Wart, name I can't currently remember.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I edit after I post... just a heads up.
Currently Running Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Most of the hype was actually about Wort, goblin auntie as a high end finisher a la SGC. There was some talk about Boggart Mob, but much more about Wort, and none (that I know of) about Knucklebone Witch.
I'm not sure if any of the ideas were any good, though.
The MLO III had a few decks running Wort, Goblin Auntie. I'm not sure if I saw any Bogart Mobs, but I really liked the card in testing against survival. Often in the survival match, Tarmogoyf doesn't get to 5/6 since we only put lands and creatures in the graveyard. Bogart Mob happened to be bigger than 'goyf several times during testing the other night. It was also immune to Burning Wish -> Pyroclasm (or Rough/Tumble). The fact that he champions a Goblin Matron was just gravy.
I think the reason I like running the Wort and the Mob is because I have a hard time splashing black for just one card in the main deck, and a few in the sideboard. At least green gives us two Tin-Street Hooligans (easier on the mana than doubling up on Worts or Mobs), and significant sideboard cards that help the deck's primary weakness (enchantments). Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard is good, but sometimes it is still not enough to stop combo.
This deck made top 8 twice in two 6 round tournaments which is a good indication of the deck's power. This is a very finely tuned goblins list that has access to all of the cards it needs to help deal with both combo decks and troublesome enchantments and artifacts. Black/green versions like the one above are likely to become much more popular going forward and for good cause.
as odd as this sounds, has anyone ever tried goblins with blue?
after mainboarding 3 brainstorm, 4 daze and 4 force in a combo oriented environment, it has worked pretty well.
i can board in standstill. works surprisingly well with lackey/vials on the field. makes the opponent break it.
echoing truth against tokens.
check it out, goblins gets owned by combo nowadays.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BUG Pact Spanish Inquisition BUG U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life: http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
I've done the same. I also added 4 Stifle, cutting some integral Goblins, focusing on broken starts and Siege-Gang Long Game. It worked pretty well, but nobody ever really cared. So yea, I've tried (there might still be 'Goblin Fish'-thread here somewhere; there's definitely one over at the Source) it and found it pretty satisfactory, but lost interest. So yea, 16 blue cards gives you support for Force and Brainstorm allows you to cut a land, Stifle improves your already-awesome mana denial and counters are counters, Daze especially powerful with your mana denial, and the free counters give you even more broken starts with Lackey and/or Vial.
Any chance you could post your list?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1) Thorn of Amethyst is insane. Perhaps the greatest boon for this archetype in long time. Gives you MD, colorless disruption against combo and control, simply amazing card. I would not take Goblins to a big event unless this was in the list.
2) Tarmogoyf. With Thorn and Vial, you have no real reason (other than it is not a goblin) not to run this guy. Simple as that.
3) I believe Goblins need's to be a double splash. R/g/b. More on that later.
4) The Lorwyn Goblins are garbage.
5) Mana disruption was, is, and has become much more important for this deck to be competitive.
R/g/b Goofy Goblins
Lands:
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
Creatures:
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Matron
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
Spells:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 AEther Vial
Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Deathmark
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Tormod's Crypt
For the inclusion of 4x Thorn and 4x Goyf, we made the following cut's to the "Core":
-2x Gempalm Incinerator:
The meta is such that this guy just is not worth 4x slot's. Especially if you want to run 4x Thorn and 4x Goyf.
-1 Mogg Fanatic:
Cutting this by 1 to facilitate the inclusion of the new additions seems very reasonable.
-1 Goblin Ringleader:
With 8x non-goblin cards coming in, cutting him by 1 is fine.
-1 Goblin Matron:
Cutting her by 1 sucks, it was either her, or a land. I will only play this deck with 23 land, so she had to be clipped a bit.
About the board:
Thoughtseize is pretty self explanatory. Very flexible against the meta.
Deathmark. I wanted to try this for a long time. In my opnion, it is very good. Kills Goyf, Mages, Grunts, Dryads, BTS, etc; essentially creatures that mess with Goblins, and for a very small mana investment.
PyroK. For the mirror, gg.
Crypt. Utility against allot of decks.
//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothill
3 Badland
3 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 Rishidan Port
4 AEther Vial
//Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
//Removal
3 Crib Swap
//Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Goblin King
Crib Swap was mad tech, all day. I busted so many Goyf's with that card. It can be tutored with Matron and played for 1 less with Warchief. Hell, you can play it off Lackey or Ringleader.
The black splash Sideboard was also great. I tore up Thresh with it, and no one was expecting it as I would play only Plateaus game one. The reason I only went 2-2 was because I was expecting a lot of thresh/counterslivers, and instead there was a lot of Goblins/Burn.
Crib Swap can't be played off Lackey. Lackey's errata says "Goblin permanent", so you're out of luck.
In the matchup against Thresh, CS really helped. My first was countered, but I tutored up another and killed his Goyf, at which point, he scooped.
I just meant in terms of playing it off Lackey, that's all.
In that case , I may have the following changes to the deck posted on page 2..
-4 Tarmogoyf (coz Leyline weakens goyf)
+2 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Ringleader
+ 1 Matron
Any comments?
Crib Swap is very bad, especially main deck.
You never want to waste a Matron tutoring for expensive, clumsy removal.
If your going to splash white, you run Swords to Plowshares. Period.
Ok guy's, after some more meta testing, and tweaking, I have developed a list that I would run if I were to play Gob's at a tourny. I have also included some observations about the archetype.
First, the list:
4 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Goblin King
3 Blood Moon
2 Duress
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Smother
(Note: The Side Board always changes, from event to event. Know your local Meta, and study the top decks.)
This list stays as true to the Vial Goblins core, while adding a MUCH needed, all purpose answer to a variety of decks in Thoughtseize.
At first, I thought Thorn of Amethyst was going to really help this deck, It didn't. Yes Thorn ruins combo, however, with a Thresh heavy meta, combo is next to dead. Also, to make Thorn work, it need's to stick Turn 1 before deck's can respond or recover, this deck simply can not do that effectively. Thorn clogs up the deck with more 2-drops, really slowing down our tempo. Threshold laughs at Thorn, it does not hinder their creatures, and makes Bolt/Swords/Fire/Ice cost 1 more, big deal...
Thoughtseize on the other hand is absolutely insane. As each day passes, it makes more and more sense why this was printed as a rare. It serves a purpose against ANY deck in the meta game. Nails those Goyfs, Plagues, Wrath's, Moat, etc; etc;
Thanks.
Well, it is for white stax, but if they've gotten to the point where they feel comfortable dropping it, then they've won already and killing it will just slow the game down while they wait to draw another.
I'm also debating between 2x SGC or 1x SGC 1x Kiki-Jiki. Kiki is just such a house with Ringleader and Piledriver that it's somewhat ridiculous, yet since I'm running 4x StP I don't have room for both.
Thoughts?
And for the record: niché isn't a word... like, not even in french... just puting it out there.
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
Anyways, qualifying this post...
Has anyone managed any reasonable results with any of the new goblins from Lorwyn? I remeber them coming up in discussion, but either I missed it, or everyone just kind of lost interest. Care to inform me on this? (I'm refering mainly to the black ones; Knucklebone Witch, Boggart Mob, and to a lesser extent Wart, name I can't currently remember.)
Currently Running
Legacy: Burn; Various Stompy's; Food Chain Goblins; FC Elves
Standard: Junk Super Friends, Elf-Wave
Elder Dragon Highlander: Animar, Skithiryx, Bosh, Konda, Wort, Ezuri, Patron of the Moon
I'm not sure if any of the ideas were any good, though.
I think the reason I like running the Wort and the Mob is because I have a hard time splashing black for just one card in the main deck, and a few in the sideboard. At least green gives us two Tin-Street Hooligans (easier on the mana than doubling up on Worts or Mobs), and significant sideboard cards that help the deck's primary weakness (enchantments). Cabal Therapy out of the sideboard is good, but sometimes it is still not enough to stop combo.
[High~Light Studios]
Here is a sample decklist:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Golbin Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Wort, Boggart Auntie
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
The key thing about his deck is that it splashes both green for Tin Street Hooligan and black for Wort, Boggart Auntie. With additional cards such as Krosan Grip and Cabal Therapy in the Sideboard. Wort, Boggart Auntie is a powerful card advantage engine all in itself and being a 3/3 beater with evasion makes it all the better.
This deck made top 8 twice in two 6 round tournaments which is a good indication of the deck's power. This is a very finely tuned goblins list that has access to all of the cards it needs to help deal with both combo decks and troublesome enchantments and artifacts. Black/green versions like the one above are likely to become much more popular going forward and for good cause.
after mainboarding 3 brainstorm, 4 daze and 4 force in a combo oriented environment, it has worked pretty well.
i can board in standstill. works surprisingly well with lackey/vials on the field. makes the opponent break it.
echoing truth against tokens.
check it out, goblins gets owned by combo nowadays.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Any chance you could post your list?