Not to pre-empt Black Star's responses, but the varied dredge answers help against things like Pithing Needle and Cabal Therapy. Plus Bojuka Bog can be searched up by a Knight so you only need one.
As far as the sword debate, I have a hard time deciding what to go with as an equipment package. It seems like each of the swords could be argued to be the best, so it really just depends on what you expect to play against and what you like playing with. SoFI probably does have the best abilities in the abstract, but it may not have the best protection colors, especially if you like your Merfolk and/or Zoo matchup. Team America is a very powerful deck that can be swung in your favor by having the SoFF.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Yeah I was thinking "Why didn't he play the trap a 2nd time? That would have been sweet, getting a 2/1 for free along with whatever else he found." Yeah when I read that you got e. witness off that I just laughed.
NO as a card isn't that good when daze and such are seeing play/blue is quite prevalent. In the mirror it's incredible as long as they don't blow you out with a mindcensor in response to NO itself unless you get incredibly lucky and find a big beater/progenitus in the top 4.
Black Star sounds like aven mindcensor pulled its weight that tournament; that card is sweet against survival fetchlands and intuition. Also love that it has flash it's like a 3 mana stifle that provides a body with flying as well.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Thats my point. Im not sure this versatility is as good as it might look. Im afraid it requires too much mana. Im looking forward to hear how it performs should you choose to use it.
You run Gaea's Cradle. I doubt that Scavenging Ooze's mana commitment is something difficult to deal with honestly.
I've been absent from these boards for several months now (probably closer to a year or so), but I haven't stopped brewing or playing competitively.
I've independently created what I like to call "G/W Zenith Beats". So I was pretty amazed when I saw this thread.. It’s very similar.
First I'll post my list, then some questions for the rest of you. (I've placed 1st twice and top 4 several times at small shops with 30+ players, a hand full with pro points)
My board is still being worked on (I see a lot of blue decks).
Explanations:
Playing SFM on turn 1 is very powerful, and I like blanking mental misstep as much as possible, so moxes seemed the right direction. Mox diamond was my go to choice due to the sheer number of lands I already run to make knight stronger. They also help blank all of the other wasteland decks out there. (Though I did get blown out by a deeds once). Mox just seems light-years better than hierarch, as it's not prone to misstep or removal. And with 4 zeniths, there's still 7 turn one accelerates.
SOFF and SOWP give me all of the relevant protections, and allow me to play aggressively, punch through green creature mirrors and blank every form of removal available. I really miss SOFI, but I just can't justify it.. Maybe someone here can?
Pridemage started as a single zenith target, but I soon found it to be very important in several matchups. I'd play 3 if I could find room (why a 3rd is in the board).
Beast within.. Excellent catch all, especially when all of your creatures are bigger. But hitting my own land has actually won me quite a few games.
Silhana ledgewalker .. I often win with her, and after the match get shown a fist full of useless removal. She’s much easier to hit with zenith in the main deck than thrun is. Plus, ONLY being able to get blocked by flyers is huge. I'm really not sure why no one else has caught on to her yet.
sejiri steppe.. Wins games, period.
Nantuko monastery.. I've NEVER activated it. It’s actually pretty hard to reach threshold in this deck, often winning long before that becomes relivant. I'm about to take it out, but I've got this awkward feeling that it'll help me one day. Any thoughts on this? Experience? And what would I replace it with?
Maindeck teeg.. Sure he cuts off your own zeniths. But in the match ups where he matters, who cares?! He's been golden for me, time and time again.
Mother of runes.. Basically the only 1 drop I have in the deck. They've won me several games, but I'm not sure I would have lost with out them. Not being able to zenith it, and turning misstep on, don't appeal to me. 2 seems right if you're going to run them, I haven't found anything that works better yet. Opinions?
QUESTIONS:
I've been swapping the libraries out for loams. When I do I usually add a sylvan safekeeper for a goyf. I'm not totally sold on it though, and am really frustrated. Both have performed well for me, and I really can't make a good decision here. Neither is good in multiples.. Maybe a singleton split? I haven't tried that yet. What are your thoughts? ps.. Turn one fetch land and mox into loam can be pretty nuts, especially when knight comes down thrun two and not only does the wasteland fun begin, but knight gets absurdly huge when dredging.
Scryb/Quirion Ranger? I understand their strength with knight, but maze of ith does the same thing and is already in the deck. Is it worth it to waste a slot or two on these guys just to win-more with knight? Wouldn't another threat be better? I know how strong they can be from playing elves, but I need some convincing. Why should I run these guys, most likely in the place of goyf?
Gaea's cradle? how often is that actually helping win the game? In what situations? Are those situations worth the amount of times you need a land in the first couple of turns, but don't have a creature to turn cradle on?
How relevant is aven mindsensor? How often does it really shine? Seems like an underpowered cheap trick in legacy with out all of the tutors vintage has. Just seems like there are more powerful things I'd rather be doing.
How often is a single witness really all that? I've been playing it for a while, and recently dropped it. It just seems that I would NEVER zenith for it, because it's just kind of win-more. Naturally drawing it was nice here and there, but that's too random for my tastes.
Is Thrun really needed in the main deck? Sure he can shine against control, but seems lack luster in other match ups. And as a singleton, I’d never pay 5 to tutor him. I much prefer my ledgewalker. Can anyone give me good reason to see this any other way?
Scavenging Ooze vs. loaming shaman.. For the same mana cost, you can get rid of the entire library in one swoop. Why would anyone want to play ooze over shaman? I'm honestly curious... is there something I'm missing? Sure, ooze is better over time, but if you're bringing in grave hate, you probably need it as quickly as possible. In which case zenith for shaman seems better. ???
Homeward path.. Is it worth it as a knight target in the board vs. shakels and sower? I'm inclined to say no, as those problems aren't "too" frequent. However it's worth a thought. My board is just so tight right now. :/
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I played a Maverick variant before the deck got famous, and I'll tell you all with confidence that Birds is better than Hierarch here. Carrying over Swords was so important in many of my games.
I played my mox diamond list with a few tweeks to another second place finish. This time, I lost in the finals to freaking burn. 0-2.
Both games I had a quick batterskull on the ground about to attack. one more turn and I would have come back to win. But it's kind of hard to beat tripple goblin guide and crap tons of burn to my face.
Any thoughts? I really didn't have a lot to side in. I wasn thinking about challice of the void for other match ups, and it would have been the nuts vs. burn. I'd just have to make room in my board (for which I would need help.. see my board in the list above).
PS.. I droped down to 2 goyfs and really did miss them. I still won a lot of games with out them, but it would have been easier with them. I might keep them out to try the mindsensors (though I'm stil skeptical on those), but I think I'll end up back at a full set of goyfs.
1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I'm in a control heavy meta, so I can't go overboard for this one burn player.
I had SFM turn 2 and batterskull turn 3 both games, but lost before being able to attack. SoWP was in there as well, but that would have been even slower.
I just don't think there's any way to beat that without dedicating a lot of hate. I'm hopeing that if he doesn't get nut draws again, there's enough life gain in the main deck to just smack him silly.
When you are palying with e-tutor board you can try CoP: Red. Helps against Progenitus, too.
I would have never thought of that. Not for this deck, but I'll keep that in mind.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
I don't think you can expect to beat Burn with SFM into Batterskull. At best, you get to attack and gain 4 life on your turn 4. If he was on the play, you'd usually be dead by then. Or if he knew he couldn't burn you out, he'd just burn your Mystic, and you're still screwed. Against a good burn hand, your only real hope is turn 1 Mum, Turn 2 Jitte, Turn 3 Swing.
Circle of Protection: Red in an e tutor board will help. It's only one slot, and it helps against Progenitus too.
how is MAVERICK not just GW beats with some meta-tek splashed in?? i built and am trying to tweak this deck like everyone else but it seems to keep going backand forth between either just trying to get there and/or just controlling the board and having stronger card for card power than the opponent.
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PARAMEDIC/FIREFIGHTER
YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
how is MAVERICK not just GW beats with some meta-tek splashed in?? i built and am trying to tweak this deck like everyone else but it seems to keep going backand forth between either just trying to get there and/or just controlling the board and having stronger card for card power than the opponent.
Maverick isn't just GW beats. It's a deck based around 3 things:
1 - Card Quality
This is the core of the Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order packages as well as Sylvan Library. The deck is made to get what it wants when it wants which leads me to...
2 - Versatility
With the card quality afforded by the aforementioned spells, the deck is able to toolbox extremely efficiently and consistently. This allows the deck to answer many problems g1 and find answers g2/g3 that "beats" decks normally aren't capable of. This is inherently a weakness to a GW/GWx beats archetype.
3 - Control
Sort of the summation of the first two points, and also the most important point; this isn't an aggro deck. Maverick is an aggro-control deck and different builds have varying amounts and styles of control.
The deck isn't defined as the aggro or control in a game just by archtype you're playing against. Your hand and your opponents hand matter greatly and will define which role you are/take first. Similar to merfolk, sometimes you just lay on the pressure, sometimes you drop an early standstill and follow with man lands or using an active vial. Maverick is filled with interactions and many, many play choices.
This will lead to extremely good results with experienced pilots as the deck is NOT linear and more difficult to hate out. Simultaneously, this will lead to a staggering number of poor performances by play errors, both by experienced and less experienced players. Just using Green Sun's Zenith as an example; what creature do you grab on t4 when you have 4-5 mana to spend? It's not as easy as X=2 >> Tarmogoyf or even X=3 >> Knight of the Reliquary although either of those plays may be more/less/the most beneficial at the time.
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Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
has anyone tried ghost quarter as a budget replacement for for waste land? obviously its not always going to be great since they get a basic but i was just wondering. thanks
i have built a rough draft of the MAV and have been running the gauntlet with it but have been losing to Merfolk, deadguy, and affinity... what do you guys use to circumvent a win Preboard? should the odds be in my favor?:cool2:
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PARAMEDIC/FIREFIGHTER
YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
@ atlirk
deadguy BW control... lol not dredge. haha but i was considering stillmoon cavalier to help solidify board control against decks like deadguy, dark horizons, rock, junk...
but ya against merfolk its hard to keep a board presence with all their denial and speed.. would you consider SB great sable stag he is snatchable with GSZ..
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YUMA, AZ
I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
In my experience, Affinity has to have a pretty slow hand for you to have a chance preboard. It's hard to stabilize against a lot of their hands, especially if they're on the play. Postboard E. Tutor + Null Rod/Serenity lets you race them pretty well.
As others have said, Merfolk should not be a problem for this deck. They have trouble against almost all your creatures. If they drop an early Jitte that might be a slight issue, but as a player of both decks, I think this matchup is really really good for Maverick.
Against Merfolk, Affinity, Dredge, Gobbos, etc., make sure you're running Dueling Grounds in the board. With Knights and our creatures with evasion and equipment, it's an auto-win.
As for dueling grounds, i guess only Affinity and Dredge might need it, but those are decks that can actually totally blow you out within 2 turns none the less.
Really?
Both of those decks have been a cake walk in recent events for me. Gadox Teeg slows dredge down incredibly, wastland on dryad arbor takes out bridges. Sideboard is just rediculous.
Wastland and pridemage are pretty much wreck Affinity too. Again, sideboard is bonkers here.
Revoker, pridemage, krosan grip, b.bog, loaming shaman, and scavaging ooze have all earned their spots in my board.
I've also added a jitte and 2 warmth for my red match up.. I didn't loose this time.
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1.) Anyone who thinks cancel is viable should be shot. in the face. with a hammer.
2.) You misunderstand, what I was suggesting was the total exclusion of Spellstutter Sprite, because it just isnt that good anymore.
3.) Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
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As far as the sword debate, I have a hard time deciding what to go with as an equipment package. It seems like each of the swords could be argued to be the best, so it really just depends on what you expect to play against and what you like playing with. SoFI probably does have the best abilities in the abstract, but it may not have the best protection colors, especially if you like your Merfolk and/or Zoo matchup. Team America is a very powerful deck that can be swung in your favor by having the SoFF.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
NO as a card isn't that good when daze and such are seeing play/blue is quite prevalent. In the mirror it's incredible as long as they don't blow you out with a mindcensor in response to NO itself unless you get incredibly lucky and find a big beater/progenitus in the top 4.
Black Star sounds like aven mindcensor pulled its weight that tournament; that card is sweet against
survivalfetchlands and intuition. Also love that it has flash it's like a 3 mana stifle that provides a body with flying as well.Currently Playing:
Retired
You run Gaea's Cradle. I doubt that Scavenging Ooze's mana commitment is something difficult to deal with honestly.
I've been absent from these boards for several months now (probably closer to a year or so), but I haven't stopped brewing or playing competitively.
I've independently created what I like to call "G/W Zenith Beats". So I was pretty amazed when I saw this thread.. It’s very similar.
First I'll post my list, then some questions for the rest of you. (I've placed 1st twice and top 4 several times at small shops with 30+ players, a hand full with pro points)
4 green suns zenith
2 sylvan library / life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 beast within
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of war and peace
2 mother or runes
2 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
1 Silhana ledgewalker
1 gaddox teeg
1 terravore
2 forest
1 plains
4 savanah
2 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 sejiri steppe
1 dryad arbor
1 nantuko monistary
1 homeward path
2 thrun the last troll
3 phyrexian revoker
3 choke
1 sword of fire and ice
1 qasali pridemage
1 gaddox teeg
1 gaea's blessing
1 loaming shaman
1 bojuka bog
My board is still being worked on (I see a lot of blue decks).
Explanations:
Playing SFM on turn 1 is very powerful, and I like blanking mental misstep as much as possible, so moxes seemed the right direction. Mox diamond was my go to choice due to the sheer number of lands I already run to make knight stronger. They also help blank all of the other wasteland decks out there. (Though I did get blown out by a deeds once). Mox just seems light-years better than hierarch, as it's not prone to misstep or removal. And with 4 zeniths, there's still 7 turn one accelerates.
SOFF and SOWP give me all of the relevant protections, and allow me to play aggressively, punch through green creature mirrors and blank every form of removal available. I really miss SOFI, but I just can't justify it.. Maybe someone here can?
Pridemage started as a single zenith target, but I soon found it to be very important in several matchups. I'd play 3 if I could find room (why a 3rd is in the board).
Beast within.. Excellent catch all, especially when all of your creatures are bigger. But hitting my own land has actually won me quite a few games.
Silhana ledgewalker .. I often win with her, and after the match get shown a fist full of useless removal. She’s much easier to hit with zenith in the main deck than thrun is. Plus, ONLY being able to get blocked by flyers is huge. I'm really not sure why no one else has caught on to her yet.
sejiri steppe.. Wins games, period.
Nantuko monastery.. I've NEVER activated it. It’s actually pretty hard to reach threshold in this deck, often winning long before that becomes relivant. I'm about to take it out, but I've got this awkward feeling that it'll help me one day. Any thoughts on this? Experience? And what would I replace it with?
Maindeck teeg.. Sure he cuts off your own zeniths. But in the match ups where he matters, who cares?! He's been golden for me, time and time again.
Mother of runes.. Basically the only 1 drop I have in the deck. They've won me several games, but I'm not sure I would have lost with out them. Not being able to zenith it, and turning misstep on, don't appeal to me. 2 seems right if you're going to run them, I haven't found anything that works better yet. Opinions?
QUESTIONS:
I've been swapping the libraries out for loams. When I do I usually add a sylvan safekeeper for a goyf. I'm not totally sold on it though, and am really frustrated. Both have performed well for me, and I really can't make a good decision here. Neither is good in multiples.. Maybe a singleton split? I haven't tried that yet. What are your thoughts? ps.. Turn one fetch land and mox into loam can be pretty nuts, especially when knight comes down thrun two and not only does the wasteland fun begin, but knight gets absurdly huge when dredging.
Scryb/Quirion Ranger? I understand their strength with knight, but maze of ith does the same thing and is already in the deck. Is it worth it to waste a slot or two on these guys just to win-more with knight? Wouldn't another threat be better? I know how strong they can be from playing elves, but I need some convincing. Why should I run these guys, most likely in the place of goyf?
Gaea's cradle? how often is that actually helping win the game? In what situations? Are those situations worth the amount of times you need a land in the first couple of turns, but don't have a creature to turn cradle on?
How relevant is aven mindsensor? How often does it really shine? Seems like an underpowered cheap trick in legacy with out all of the tutors vintage has. Just seems like there are more powerful things I'd rather be doing.
How often is a single witness really all that? I've been playing it for a while, and recently dropped it. It just seems that I would NEVER zenith for it, because it's just kind of win-more. Naturally drawing it was nice here and there, but that's too random for my tastes.
Is Thrun really needed in the main deck? Sure he can shine against control, but seems lack luster in other match ups. And as a singleton, I’d never pay 5 to tutor him. I much prefer my ledgewalker. Can anyone give me good reason to see this any other way?
Scavenging Ooze vs. loaming shaman.. For the same mana cost, you can get rid of the entire library in one swoop. Why would anyone want to play ooze over shaman? I'm honestly curious... is there something I'm missing? Sure, ooze is better over time, but if you're bringing in grave hate, you probably need it as quickly as possible. In which case zenith for shaman seems better. ???
Homeward path.. Is it worth it as a knight target in the board vs. shakels and sower? I'm inclined to say no, as those problems aren't "too" frequent. However it's worth a thought. My board is just so tight right now. :/
Both games I had a quick batterskull on the ground about to attack. one more turn and I would have come back to win. But it's kind of hard to beat tripple goblin guide and crap tons of burn to my face.
Any thoughts? I really didn't have a lot to side in. I wasn thinking about challice of the void for other match ups, and it would have been the nuts vs. burn. I'd just have to make room in my board (for which I would need help.. see my board in the list above).
PS.. I droped down to 2 goyfs and really did miss them. I still won a lot of games with out them, but it would have been easier with them. I might keep them out to try the mindsensors (though I'm stil skeptical on those), but I think I'll end up back at a full set of goyfs.
edit...
Can someone explain this to me? I've never found a reason not to run 4.
Also to note, I won a match because I played Scavenging Ooze; it was nuts against a g/w list with Vengvines.
I had SFM turn 2 and batterskull turn 3 both games, but lost before being able to attack. SoWP was in there as well, but that would have been even slower.
I just don't think there's any way to beat that without dedicating a lot of hate.
I would have never thought of that. Not for this deck, but I'll keep that in mind.
Circle of Protection: Red in an e tutor board will help. It's only one slot, and it helps against Progenitus too.
YUMA, AZ
Maverick isn't just GW beats. It's a deck based around 3 things:
1 - Card Quality
This is the core of the Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order packages as well as Sylvan Library. The deck is made to get what it wants when it wants which leads me to...
2 - Versatility
With the card quality afforded by the aforementioned spells, the deck is able to toolbox extremely efficiently and consistently. This allows the deck to answer many problems g1 and find answers g2/g3 that "beats" decks normally aren't capable of. This is inherently a weakness to a GW/GWx beats archetype.
3 - Control
Sort of the summation of the first two points, and also the most important point; this isn't an aggro deck. Maverick is an aggro-control deck and different builds have varying amounts and styles of control.
The deck isn't defined as the aggro or control in a game just by archtype you're playing against. Your hand and your opponents hand matter greatly and will define which role you are/take first. Similar to merfolk, sometimes you just lay on the pressure, sometimes you drop an early standstill and follow with man lands or using an active vial. Maverick is filled with interactions and many, many play choices.
This will lead to extremely good results with experienced pilots as the deck is NOT linear and more difficult to hate out. Simultaneously, this will lead to a staggering number of poor performances by play errors, both by experienced and less experienced players. Just using Green Sun's Zenith as an example; what creature do you grab on t4 when you have 4-5 mana to spend? It's not as easy as X=2 >> Tarmogoyf or even X=3 >> Knight of the Reliquary although either of those plays may be more/less/the most beneficial at the time.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
that sounds really cool, i just picked one of those up today so i think i will try it!
what decks have you been testing against?
YUMA, AZ
deadguy BW control... lol not dredge. haha but i was considering stillmoon cavalier to help solidify board control against decks like deadguy, dark horizons, rock, junk...
but ya against merfolk its hard to keep a board presence with all their denial and speed.. would you consider SB great sable stag he is snatchable with GSZ..
YUMA, AZ
As others have said, Merfolk should not be a problem for this deck. They have trouble against almost all your creatures. If they drop an early Jitte that might be a slight issue, but as a player of both decks, I think this matchup is really really good for Maverick.
how about junk BGW and dark horizons/rock?? i read the primer but they run the same power we do and have some extra umph...
YUMA, AZ
Really?
Both of those decks have been a cake walk in recent events for me. Gadox Teeg slows dredge down incredibly, wastland on dryad arbor takes out bridges. Sideboard is just rediculous.
Wastland and pridemage are pretty much wreck Affinity too. Again, sideboard is bonkers here.
Revoker, pridemage, krosan grip, b.bog, loaming shaman, and scavaging ooze have all earned their spots in my board.
I've also added a jitte and 2 warmth for my red match up.. I didn't loose this time.