Had an awful tournament too with a Punishing Fire deck. Back to "classic" Jund with 21 lands whose four basics (2 swamps, 1 forest, 1 mountain) and 3 Wastelands.
What do you think about Browbeat as a one or two of? Might be interesting since Jund is a midrange deck, I know the opponent choose the effect but 5 damages seems worthy enough to try it.
It's better here than in Burn certainly. An interesting choice, especially in a CA heavy deck like ours.
I tested a bunch vs UR Delver. Very very bad matchup for us.
I only played it a handful of times, but I lost every one. They were simply too fast for me.
Got in a handful of games today. Here's a not tournament report.
Dragon Stompy Varient
He wins game 1 off of a Hound of Gristelbrand with a Jitte. I win game 2 off of Liliana and game 3 off of Pyroclasm.
IN: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Ancient Grudge
OUT: 2 IoK, 2 Thoughtseize
1-0 (2-1)
Punishing Maverick
G1: I open with DRS and he played an Arbor. I waste it and Hymn. Be plays Grove. I waste and drop Bob. It’s over.
IN: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Pyroclasm
OUT: 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn to Tourach
G2: His Ooze gets out of control and Punishing Fires comes online.
G3: We remove each other’s creatures and wind up at 4 lands each, I have Liliana and he has RIP. He drops SFM which makes it look ugly, but I force him to lose RIP and his only white source with Liliana’s -6 and drop a Goyf that enters as a 5/6. This match is a really great one, we whittle each other down, and he is at 5 life when my Library finds a second bolt and there’s no one left for His ooze to eat. At this point I had less than 30 cards left in my library.
2-0 (4-2)
Undercity Spy Combo deck
G1: Informer T1s me.
IN: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Hymn, 2 Duress, 3 Pyroblast
OUT: 4 Lightning Bolt, 2 BBE, 1 Sylvan Library
G2: Thoughtseize and Hymn followed by Liliana and Ooze make it impossible for him to go off.
G3: I open with two SE’s which his T1 Probe sees. I beat him down while he plays draw-go and then I hit both Spy and Informer with Hymn and then Extract them both.
3-0 (6-3)
MiracleBalance
G1: Top->CounterBalance->Clique->JTMS is really good.
IN: 3 Pyroblast
OUT: 2 Scavagin Ooze, 1 Garruk
G2: I slow him with discard and kill him
G3: RIP stalls me while he assembles three counterbalances and JTMS
3-1 (7-5)
Back to PFire-less Jund to me. The tournament this Saturday was just awful and it has been a while since I last played a deck that felt that clunky. Granted, I didn't have my brightest day and started feeling sick the evening before, but still... I was flipping 3-4 mana cards with Dark Confidant all day (if I flipped something with cc less than 3, it was usually another Confidant - up to the point where I drew all four of them while I needed removal or a bigger creature). And don't even get me started on the bad cascades I had. It was laughable.
Sounds an awful lot like my experience with P-Fire. It's obviously not bad, or it wouldn't be piloted to a first-place finish at a SCG Open, but for me it just slowed the deck down monstrously and felt, as you said, very clunky. I found that everything I liked about Jund when I initially tested it was mitigated. I should've listened to my gut and just run a clean Jund deck with that nice, smooth curve, and just boarded in some Disifgures if I found it really necessary. Paying three mana for a shock effect was just bad, in the occasions it was actually relevant, and while it's true that most creatures in the format die to PF, you have to devote so many resources to it that it barely seems worth the disruption you're causing to the speed of a "good stuff" aggro deck like Jund.
Still, some people are good at piloting it, and more power to them. But with a deck that is so draw-dependent, I find I'm just not up to it, and anyway, my local meta punishes you for any inefficiency you introduce.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar!
Nai elyë hiruva! Namárië!
More testing has shown that Garruk is really good. He completely destroys people. I would argue he is probably better than Elspeth over all. It's almost a shame that he has to play second fiddle to Liliana.
Life from the Loam has been pretty useless, I've dropped it for a third Pyroclasm. Not sure if I want to be playing 3, but they are pretty useful. Maybe a Bonfire of the Damned or a BBE instead.
Edit: As much as I disparaged BBE, it does pull through for you when you need it. I think 4 is too many but 2 or 3 is good.
Against control, pumping out a 2/2 every turn is quite powerful, especially as he doesn't die to Terminus or Abrupt Decay. His secondary use is as a BBE tutor. Every once in a while I use him to kill Bobs or something, but that's less common.
I don't think a new Chandra would see much play. We are really mainly geared for black and green (My list requires all of 8 red colors), and for a new Chandra to see play, it would have to be as better than Liliana to make us want to squeeze in that mana cost. That's nigh impossible IMO.
Why would you choose between Chandra and Liliana when you could play both considering the new Chandra would fit in the burn plan of the deck and Liliana is a discard staple and one of the best planeswalker ever? Punishing Fire lists are much more geared for red, generally running 7 sources of red mana (3 badlands and 4 Groves).
Having a playable Chandra would reinforce the deck, not be a choice between burn and discard.
Because we don't have enough space. You have to run 22 lands, 4 DRS, 4 Bob, 4 Goyf, 4 other creatures, 4 Discard, 4 Bolt, 4 Abrupt Decay in every list. that's 50. Add two Library and suddenly if you want to run both Liliana and Chandra, it will take up all your discretionary cards. We have a very tight deck and I'm not sure that a third planeswalker is what we need. Not to mention that there is absolutely no room in PF lists. I mean, if she had +1: Shock, -2: Pyroclasm, -X: Fireball, then yea I'd grumble and cut Hymns to make room. But that's crazy good. This deck is really tight and there simply isn't room for everything I'd like to play.
I've tweaked my list a bit, currently rolling with
I just learned Garruk is a complete boss in the mirror. As usual, we nuked eachother's stuff and were sitting at 4-5 lands and a DRS each. He topdecks a BBE which cascades into a Dark Confidant. I then topdeck Garruk, ping his confidant, block BBE with DRS the next turn, and then make a deathtouch token. Cue my opponent laughing and saying "I never thought Garruk was any good... guess I was wrong".
He's great vs Maverick too, if you have a blocker or two and then ping a tapped Mom, the game all of a sudden turns completely around. Vs control he just sits there and pumps out an army. Since few control decks are running Lightning Bolt right now, he's quite hard to kill.
I'm tempted to add a second to my SB, probably over a Needle.
By the way, has anyone found the opp seems to think Library is really really good? I mean, sure it's good, but today I had someone name it with a blind cabal therapy and someone else Force it on turn 2.
DRS mainly feeds off of instants and sorceries, of which there are plenty. You can happily keep Ooze a 2/2 until they deal with Goyf, and then suddenly grow him.
So, thoughts on matchups? I find Maverick to be positive, control too. Miracle is strongly favored. Other BGx decks like BUG and BWg StoneBlade are much tougher. Burn and UR Delver are losing matchups too. Show and Tell is a toss up, depends on how much discard you have other combo decks are disadvantageous. What does everyone else think?
I've been following the Legacy Jund threads both here and on the Source. It's bizarre, when this site was in favor of the Punishing Fire combo the folks at the Source said that it was terrible. Now that most people here are saying that the combo is bad everyone at the Source is saying it's the strongest version of Jund. I run Punishing Fire in my current build and believe it to be the stronger version vs fair decks and against unfair decks Jund is a bad deck choice anyway, that's my opinion anyway. I'm interested in this discussion on Garruk Relentless though, he seems decent.
I love Garruk. Resolve him and you can't loose against control, keep him around a few turns and you can't loose against aggro. Pretty good gig. That's before you flip him - the fact that after getting hit he will tutor up a BBE is just icing on the cake.
@ Ragged Joe:
That seems like an accurate breakdown. I've not had an issue with BUG at all, that's probably due to PF. I've not yet played against BWg Stoneblade though. My experience against Show and Tell is unfavorable, but then that's probably due to bad hands and PF combo, lol. I also think UR Delver is a better MU with PF too (although not by terribly much). Burn is horrible as is combo.
I've actually had decent success against combo with 6 discard spells main and another 2 on the sideboard, plus Liliana. I mean, it's no walk in the park, but I don't think it's an auto lose as Burn is.
Merfolk is good. We have goyf and bob and lots of removal.
Goblins is OK. we have removal and goyf, but sometimes they will just out swarm you.
I actually wonder why Darkblast isn't more popular.
It doesn't kill your manabase like Punishing Fire does, and it accomplishes much of the same things. It doesn't give you the inevitability, but it breaks fair matchups wide open all the same. Upkeep cast Darkblast > Dredge > cast Darkblast handles the key two toughness creatures like DRS (an active untapped DRS can stop this, which is a downside), flipped Delver, and Stoneforge. It beats the Goyf mirror too. Hits tribal hard just like Punishing Fire.
I like the fact that it doesn't cost mana to recur, it feeds DRS, and it just fits the mana so much better. At one mana, it also matches up against something like Thalia more effectively (four mana to recur and cast Punishing Fire? Ouch).
Punishing Fire helps against Planeswalkers, I'll give it that, and I guess you might actually be in a situation where you have no other option but doming them for one damage a turn with Punishing Fire... I think Darkblast deserves some love though.
That's a very interesting idea, it would be especially great in matches against BGx decks where it kills Confidants and wins goyf wars. It also deals with Lingering Souls pretty well.
I've been running 2x of maelstrom pulse, and its been amazing for bombing planeswalkers and whatever else stands in my way. It's great when you get it with a BBE cast. Also pulse just devastates Esper decks. I'd recommend play testing it, when i get home from work ill post my deck list.
I've been running 2 Pulse maindeck, too. Since December or so, I believe. It's our simple solution to a resolved Jace, Elspeth, Batterskull or Tombstalker which we have trouble dealing with (just off the top of my head).
Yup. Tombstalker just melts me, sometimes the planeswallers arent too bad with bolts or lavamancers. But main deck pulse is a play i see a lot of jund lists lacking. Its basically a vindicate with a different ability, with a bonus of crushing esper.
I really enjoy junds sideboard, I play in a very heavy show n tell meta. The great thing about red is the pyroblasts and red elemental blasts. Sometimes you can steal a 2-0 round on them if you get a early jump. But post board my results against show n tell decks have been devastating, id say 85% effective post board.
One thing I've had problems with has been maverick with mirran crusader, man he can light you up fast if you have no answers in your hand.
so i have a few random rulings questions based on card interactions if anyone can help me out.
If you have both Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library in play, Dark Confidant triggers 1st adding the top card to your hand correct? and then you proceed to your draw phase and draw 2 from library and 1 from your draw step. So with Sylvan Library's effect you have to put back two of the four cards drawn this turn this is including the card drawn off of Dark Confidant or lose life for the extra two cards? Is this correct?
Second question in regards to punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows, I know how the combo works, but if you have multiple punishing fires in your graveyard do they have to gain life multiple times or can you tap red with grove and red with a badlands and get multiple copies back at the same time?
Also what matchups do you bring in mindbreak trap? just the storm/tendrils matchups?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks Standard : Bant FlashUWG Modern : JundRBGW Legacy : JundRBG
so i have a few random rulings questions based on card interactions if anyone can help me out.
If you have both Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library in play, Dark Confidant triggers 1st adding the top card to your hand correct? and then you proceed to your draw phase and draw 2 from library and 1 from your draw step. So with Sylvan Library's effect you have to put back two of the four cards drawn this turn this is including the card drawn off of Dark Confidant or lose life for the extra two cards? Is this correct?
No. The word "draw" appears nowhere on the text of dark confidant. Cards put into your hand by him are just that - and not drawn.
Second question in regards to punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows, I know how the combo works, but if you have multiple punishing fires in your graveyard do they have to gain life multiple times or can you tap red with grove and red with a badlands and get multiple copies back at the same time?
One grove will activate all of the PF. You must pay the R separately of course
Also what matchups do you bring in mindbreak trap? just the storm/tendrils matchups?
I would not recommend mindbreak trap. It's a pretty bad card. Duress is much better. Most storm decks are playing discard and Chant effects making MBT useless. I would recommend boarding in Duress over Abrupt Decay
I haven't had a lot of time to play recently due to exams, but PoP is very very bad and Browbeat is OK in the early game and bad late.
EDIT: I dropped another BBE for Garruk Relentless in testing today. Loved it. Currently rolling what's on the top of the page.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
It's better here than in Burn certainly. An interesting choice, especially in a CA heavy deck like ours.
I tested a bunch vs UR Delver. Very very bad matchup for us.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Got in a handful of games today. Here's a not tournament report.
Dragon Stompy Varient
He wins game 1 off of a Hound of Gristelbrand with a Jitte. I win game 2 off of Liliana and game 3 off of Pyroclasm.
IN: 2 Pyroclasm, 2 Ancient Grudge
OUT: 2 IoK, 2 Thoughtseize
1-0 (2-1)
Punishing Maverick
G1: I open with DRS and he played an Arbor. I waste it and Hymn. Be plays Grove. I waste and drop Bob. It’s over.
IN: 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Pyroclasm
OUT: 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn to Tourach
G2: His Ooze gets out of control and Punishing Fires comes online.
G3: We remove each other’s creatures and wind up at 4 lands each, I have Liliana and he has RIP. He drops SFM which makes it look ugly, but I force him to lose RIP and his only white source with Liliana’s -6 and drop a Goyf that enters as a 5/6. This match is a really great one, we whittle each other down, and he is at 5 life when my Library finds a second bolt and there’s no one left for His ooze to eat. At this point I had less than 30 cards left in my library.
2-0 (4-2)
Undercity Spy Combo deck
G1: Informer T1s me.
IN: 3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Hymn, 2 Duress, 3 Pyroblast
OUT: 4 Lightning Bolt, 2 BBE, 1 Sylvan Library
G2: Thoughtseize and Hymn followed by Liliana and Ooze make it impossible for him to go off.
G3: I open with two SE’s which his T1 Probe sees. I beat him down while he plays draw-go and then I hit both Spy and Informer with Hymn and then Extract them both.
3-0 (6-3)
MiracleBalance
G1: Top->CounterBalance->Clique->JTMS is really good.
IN: 3 Pyroblast
OUT: 2 Scavagin Ooze, 1 Garruk
G2: I slow him with discard and kill him
G3: RIP stalls me while he assembles three counterbalances and JTMS
3-1 (7-5)
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Sounds an awful lot like my experience with P-Fire. It's obviously not bad, or it wouldn't be piloted to a first-place finish at a SCG Open, but for me it just slowed the deck down monstrously and felt, as you said, very clunky. I found that everything I liked about Jund when I initially tested it was mitigated. I should've listened to my gut and just run a clean Jund deck with that nice, smooth curve, and just boarded in some Disifgures if I found it really necessary. Paying three mana for a shock effect was just bad, in the occasions it was actually relevant, and while it's true that most creatures in the format die to PF, you have to devote so many resources to it that it barely seems worth the disruption you're causing to the speed of a "good stuff" aggro deck like Jund.
Still, some people are good at piloting it, and more power to them. But with a deck that is so draw-dependent, I find I'm just not up to it, and anyway, my local meta punishes you for any inefficiency you introduce.
Nai elyë hiruva! Namárië!
Life from the Loam has been pretty useless, I've dropped it for a third Pyroclasm. Not sure if I want to be playing 3, but they are pretty useful. Maybe a Bonfire of the Damned or a BBE instead.
Edit: As much as I disparaged BBE, it does pull through for you when you need it. I think 4 is too many but 2 or 3 is good.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I don't think a new Chandra would see much play. We are really mainly geared for black and green (My list requires all of 8 red colors), and for a new Chandra to see play, it would have to be as better than Liliana to make us want to squeeze in that mana cost. That's nigh impossible IMO.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Because we don't have enough space. You have to run 22 lands, 4 DRS, 4 Bob, 4 Goyf, 4 other creatures, 4 Discard, 4 Bolt, 4 Abrupt Decay in every list. that's 50. Add two Library and suddenly if you want to run both Liliana and Chandra, it will take up all your discretionary cards. We have a very tight deck and I'm not sure that a third planeswalker is what we need. Not to mention that there is absolutely no room in PF lists. I mean, if she had +1: Shock, -2: Pyroclasm, -X: Fireball, then yea I'd grumble and cut Hymns to make room. But that's crazy good. This deck is really tight and there simply isn't room for everything I'd like to play.
I've tweaked my list a bit, currently rolling with
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Savaging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
Lands:
3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
It's more my creature count than anything else, and I think it's a good creature. What list are you running?
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
He's great vs Maverick too, if you have a blocker or two and then ping a tapped Mom, the game all of a sudden turns completely around. Vs control he just sits there and pumps out an army. Since few control decks are running Lightning Bolt right now, he's quite hard to kill.
I'm tempted to add a second to my SB, probably over a Needle.
By the way, has anyone found the opp seems to think Library is really really good? I mean, sure it's good, but today I had someone name it with a blind cabal therapy and someone else Force it on turn 2.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I've actually had decent success against combo with 6 discard spells main and another 2 on the sideboard, plus Liliana. I mean, it's no walk in the park, but I don't think it's an auto lose as Burn is.
Merfolk is good. We have goyf and bob and lots of removal.
Goblins is OK. we have removal and goyf, but sometimes they will just out swarm you.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
It doesn't kill your manabase like Punishing Fire does, and it accomplishes much of the same things. It doesn't give you the inevitability, but it breaks fair matchups wide open all the same. Upkeep cast Darkblast > Dredge > cast Darkblast handles the key two toughness creatures like DRS (an active untapped DRS can stop this, which is a downside), flipped Delver, and Stoneforge. It beats the Goyf mirror too. Hits tribal hard just like Punishing Fire.
I like the fact that it doesn't cost mana to recur, it feeds DRS, and it just fits the mana so much better. At one mana, it also matches up against something like Thalia more effectively (four mana to recur and cast Punishing Fire? Ouch).
Punishing Fire helps against Planeswalkers, I'll give it that, and I guess you might actually be in a situation where you have no other option but doming them for one damage a turn with Punishing Fire... I think Darkblast deserves some love though.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
RUG
Enchantress
Yup. Tombstalker just melts me, sometimes the planeswallers arent too bad with bolts or lavamancers. But main deck pulse is a play i see a lot of jund lists lacking. Its basically a vindicate with a different ability, with a bonus of crushing esper.
I really enjoy junds sideboard, I play in a very heavy show n tell meta. The great thing about red is the pyroblasts and red elemental blasts. Sometimes you can steal a 2-0 round on them if you get a early jump. But post board my results against show n tell decks have been devastating, id say 85% effective post board.
One thing I've had problems with has been maverick with mirran crusader, man he can light you up fast if you have no answers in your hand.
RUG
Enchantress
If you have both Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library in play, Dark Confidant triggers 1st adding the top card to your hand correct? and then you proceed to your draw phase and draw 2 from library and 1 from your draw step. So with Sylvan Library's effect you have to put back two of the four cards drawn this turn this is including the card drawn off of Dark Confidant or lose life for the extra two cards? Is this correct?
Second question in regards to punishing fire and grove of the burnwillows, I know how the combo works, but if you have multiple punishing fires in your graveyard do they have to gain life multiple times or can you tap red with grove and red with a badlands and get multiple copies back at the same time?
Also what matchups do you bring in mindbreak trap? just the storm/tendrils matchups?
Current Decks
Standard : Bant FlashUWG
Modern : Jund RBGW
Legacy : JundRBG
I haven't had a lot of time to play recently due to exams, but PoP is very very bad and Browbeat is OK in the early game and bad late.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit