Quote from KoDiamonds »Hey everyone,
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
A) How viable is Jund in legacy? Every response I have gotten is "Jund is a worse Shardless. Just play Shardless. Jund folds to combo". I dont want to spend time and energy and money into a legacy deck that just doesnt have the proper tools to win.
B) What does a common stock sideboard look like and what matchups are these cards brought in? I have played a couple games on cockatrice and sideboarding is super difficult.
C) How important is Chains of Mephistopheles? I dont like knowing there is a $300 price barrier on one card that might be very important to Junds success.
Quote from fandangle316 »I often wonder about going up a badlands or swapping a swamp for a mountain...i play againt dnt a lot and they know to go after the red source...i actually have a mountain SB just for wastland decks
1 wooded foothills
Quote from dwchang »Quote from fandangle316 »I often wonder about going up a badlands or swapping a swamp for a mountain...i play againt dnt a lot and they know to go after the red source...i actually have a mountain SB just for wastland decks
1 wooded foothills
I play nearly the same lands except I have 1 Mountain instead of 2 Swamps (i.e. 1 and 1). I've never had an issue with it and have had that manabase for over five years now. Like you said, there are times you really need that Mountain because any good player knows to take out our Grove of the Burnwillows. I oftentimes will play my Bayou or Badlands just to get their Wasteland before I play my Groves. The basic Mountain helps a little here since we can't be locked out of Red.
Quote from Mad Mat »Why aren't you running Surgical Extraction? Seems to me to be much better against that deck, as you can play around chancellor with it if you're on the play and it's still an answer if they're on the play sans protection.
Quote from chaos021 »You should own Miracles and D&T. Storm has the advantage in game 1 but you can hit them hard with your sideboard in games 2 and 3. I personally believe Elves is a tough match even after sideboard because they usually being relevant anti-hate. I guess I should say all of the previous was with Punishing Jund. In any case, Legacy rewards players for understanding their deck and it's matches more than Modern. I'd suggest jamming some games online or on paper with proxies of you have someone to test with.
Quote from chaos021 »You should own Miracles and D&T. Storm has the advantage in game 1 but you can hit them hard with your sideboard in games 2 and 3. I personally believe Elves is a tough match even after sideboard because they usually being relevant anti-hate.
Quote from dwchang »Quote from chaos021 »You should own Miracles and D&T. Storm has the advantage in game 1 but you can hit them hard with your sideboard in games 2 and 3. I personally believe Elves is a tough match even after sideboard because they usually being relevant anti-hate.
I agree with most of this other than Elves. I find post-board we're in pretty good shape since we usually bring in 2 - 4 -X/-X effects and if used properly, it can win the game. Game one you should keep hands with the Punishing Fire and recursion because you can keep them from developing a board and they will eventually run out of gas.
In short, we're heavily favored against Miracles, Delver decks, and Shardless BUG and since Miracles is the most popular and most powerful deck, that's in itself a decent reason to play Jund. We're slightly favored against DnT and I'd say Elves is a 50/50, and lastly most combo decks and Eldrazi we're unfavored. I used to say we're pretty favored against DnT, but Prelate has changed that.
Quote from FlyingDelver »What do you think about the infect MU? I've seen infect being present in my meta, so I'd like to know
Quote from FlyingDelver »I am actually inspired by your list, which I found on MTGgoldfish, it seems straightforward and I like 2 copies of Sylvan Library. I think I want to start by playing only 3 Wastelands at the beginning, because I don't know how much Blood Moon I am going to face.
Quote from FlyingDelver »I want to start with a diverse and basic sideboard, so that means some -1/-1, some GY hate, some Enchantment and Artifact destruction, some extra discard and choke against blue stuff, Pithing needle as a versatile slot, but I am not sure about the ooze, isn't it too slow in legacy?
What would you put in the extra 2 slots in the SB, extra GY hate, Null Rod?
Quote from FlyingDelver »Is it ok to play 4 basics, or is it too much? I can surely go up to 4 wastelands any time, just thought I start by dodging Blood Moon/Wasteland a bit more, don't know how present Blood Moon in legacy is though.
Quote from Mad Mat »Infect isn't that great a match-up as it seems. Inkmoth Nexus is the most dangerous threat, as it's unblockable and dodges half of our removal (liliana and abrupt decay, plus the lone toxic deluge and maelstrom pulse). If we do not draw into wasteland (which is typically game-winning), burn is the only good answer and that can be blanked by their pump spells or a pendelhaven activation. With exalted triggers, they can force us to take the initiative to win the stack battle. Punishing Fire actually isn't all that great against infect, because it is much too slow. Of course, it's important in guaranteeing you the late game, but its role in stabilizing the early game is limited. You need your other spot removal for that, as well as your discard and wastelands.
I'd say the very favorable match-ups for Jund are Delver, Miracles, Stoneblade and Death & Taxes. Shardless, Elves and Infect are more or less 50/50. Storm, Eldrazi, Lands and Reanimator are all rather poor. Belcher, Sneaky show and Burn are absolutely horrible. Dredge and oops all spells are not as bad, because you have access to the best grave hate (including deathrite shaman in a supporting role) and turn 1 thoughtseize or duress also hurts these decks a lot.
Quote from Dissidiaanatheme »@Flyingdelver : Dismember can be a great add MB instead of bolt, and you can go for a full playset of seize and hymn. When Sneak and Show was very popular, I used to MB one Diabolic Edict.
In side, if grave strategy are very popular, you can go for 4 Leyline of the Void + one Cage (it is also good agains't Storm).
Pyroblast is a great card agains't Omnishow. Choke is in general a good addition.
As an expensive slot, you have Chains of Mephistopheles. The card is bonker really, it will win you many games when you resolve it. The downside is that sometimes, your opponent can win trough it.
I don't have many ideas for Eldrazi, if you had 0 combo deck in your meta and it was the main issue, Terminate could be an idea, but a really poor one. The MU is just as bad as in Modern, But you can try Blood Moon, even if it is a bit slow.
Note that, in Legacy, there is no reason to not play a deck in your meta. Jund is a solid deck and sometimes it will feel really bad but it is good enough to overpower any match-up.
@Mad Mat : I didn't really test this MU oftenly, but a friend of mine that had good result with it told me once how the MU was really bad for him, the combination of discard, wasteland and burn forms a solid barrier to kill with the deck.
Quote from Mad Mat »Quote from FlyingDelver »[quote from="Mad Mat »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/midrange/179839-deck-jund?comment=1205"]Thanks for sharing your insights, it helps kinda get an idea of how the deck is positioned overall and lets me focus on what I'll need if I face my meta. How do you tackle the Combo and Eldrazi MU? Just ignore? Or dedicate some SB slots. What do you think are the best SB options available against Combo and Eldrazi?
I haven't played the deck as much since eldrazi, so I don't have a lot to say on that match-up. I posted some suggestions one page back.
Against combo, I've always liked to combine discard with surgical extraction (2 duress and 2-3 surgical in the side). This approach was weaker when people played more leyline of sanctity in side, but I haven't seen that in a while. Slaughter Games is also powerful, but too often it will be too slow at 4 mana. Keep in mind that most combo decks will try to race you once they realize you have no countermagic and a lot of discard, including soft lock cards like liliana of the veil and deathrite shaman. Might be interesting to now play Lost Legacy instead, as the mana difference has a high impact.
I've never been a fan of red blasts, as I think they're too weak in the combo games (most critical combo spells are not blue) and also too expected in a deck with no other counterspells and no ethersworn canonist for it to make much difference against omniscience. The only combo match-up where blast seems really good would be omnitell, but it's still such a conditional answer. In fair midrange and control match-ups, the blasts have a terrible interaction with bloodbraid elf which is a key card in such games. Hate permanents such as Null Rod, Chains of Mephistopheles and Grafdigger's Cage have always been great 1-offs given how warping they can be in the right match-up. Another rule of thumb I've virtually always used is that every jund sideboard should include 2 pithing needle and 1 golgari charm.
@Dissidiaanatheme: I tested the infect match-up quite a bit back in the day, and it rang more or less 50/50 to me. The extra bolt people play now will help a lot, but cutting down on wasteland will weaken you even more. Similar to other midrange decks in the format, we're just not well equipped to deal with manlands other than through wasteland. And unlike other midrange decks, we have few means of finding them.
Quote from FlyingDelver »[quote from="Mad Mat »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/midrange/179839-deck-jund?comment=1205"]Thanks for sharing your insights, it helps kinda get an idea of how the deck is positioned overall and lets me focus on what I'll need if I face my meta. How do you tackle the Combo and Eldrazi MU? Just ignore? Or dedicate some SB slots. What do you think are the best SB options available against Combo and Eldrazi?