The only problem with splashing white is it makes the manabase worse. That and while rector is super super cute it isn't really the greatest. I'd rather play innocent blood over StP for the synergy it has with explorer. Also randomly answers emrakul and co. That and white doesn't really have anything better than the cards in green and black.
Overall huge fan of the deck though.
This is a really good point. But idk there are some amazing "i just win the game now" moments via white. I'm trying to get my best friend back into legacy with this archetype. I think Sun Titan, Llark, splash-white dudes (canonist, teeg) do too much to neglect it entirely. I think GB is definitely smoother mana-wise, but I cannot tell if it's "better" per se. STP is actually not needed but recurring chains from titan or llark are big. Rector is also a nice bonus, though I agree it's not needed.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Test Grave Titan, its better than wurmcoil. Specifically, it always nets you 2 zombies, regardless of if and how they deal with it. These tokens are paramount in having a critical mass of answering Jace 2.0. The wurmcoil baby wurms are powerful, but just not relevant because jace decks tend to use swords and paths.
Additionally, Grave Titan just kills the opponent in two turns.
A single volrath's stronghold is fine. It is sometimes one of the last cards that gets put in or taken out of the BG lists. It is tough to support in the BGw lists.
Living Wish isn't very good for multiple reasons, first it gets exiled so it cant be reused with eternal witness. Second, the types of deck that prey on Nic Fit can't be solved by living wishing for an answer. The deck wants robust and multiple answers for poor matchups post board. This often means something like 4x leyline of the void, or 4x mindbreak trap, things like that. Essentially, post board, you want to make sure that your opponent does not go broken on you turns one and two. Additionally, you can't let your opponent out attrition you (ie 43 lands).
The only advantage that Wurmcoil has is lifelink, (death-touch is irrelevant) and it isn't that important, as Grave Titain works just as well for stabilizing against aggro, and Kitchen Finks can help with lifegain.
Grave Titan has the added benefit of making at least 3 creatures, and more if left unanswered.
I think this can be considered a basic list, since it doesn't branch out to either Birthing Pod or Reoccurring Nightmare. Maybe it's just unnecessary as bombs are good enough for the late game.
At the risk of sounding very sillly, is there a way this deck can be built with a more budget friendly mana base? I mean, I understand WHY the deck runs the mana base it does. I just want to know if it's possible.
At the risk of sounding very sillly, is there a way this deck can be built with a more budget friendly mana base? I mean, I understand WHY the deck runs the mana base it does. I just want to know if it's possible.
I would say the main reason why you wouldn't easily be able to replace all the lands with basics is because of Hymn to Tourach. You want to be able to have the double black.
K, thanks. I'm going to try this with a littl bit of a budget set up, and upgrade as I go. Luckily, I pulled a PrimeTime the other day. One should be enough, right?
In all my play with the white-splash version, I've never had color-screw issues. Eight fetches and Veteran Explorer ought to keep you well stocked with 3 colors easy. While some may not think as highly of Academy Rector as I do, there is no doubt in my mind that he works and the majority of the Nic Fit decks placing in Top 8s recently have the white splash for him and Sun Titan. Rector allows you to run a singleton Choke in the sideboard too, which is absolute murder against 70%+ of the Legacy field. Any enchantment that comes in is also itself uncounterable. Since the deck can have a tough time against combo, it helps to grab that singleton Rule of Law as well. And you want the white for Gaddock Teeg and also Qasali Pridemage, who is just straight up better than Wickerbough Elder.
I think that the issue with the Pridemage is that after you use him to get rid of something, he's gone too. With the Elder, you pop something and have a 4/4 body to swing with. That, and if there ever is anything like infect to drop more -1/-1 on him, you can remove those counters for more hate, too.
I think that the issue with the Pridemage is that after you use him to get rid of something, he's gone too. With the Elder, you pop something and have a 4/4 body to swing with. That, and if there ever is anything like infect to drop more -1/-1 on him, you can remove those counters for more hate, too.
Elder requires 5 mana to "pop" something but pridemage hits for three, and provides and exalted trigger while he's on the board. He's a much more efficient card.
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Qasali Pridemage is more mana-efficient, but Wickerbough Elder is a +1 in Card Advantage. Since this is very much a Rock deck, and you should be hitting 5 mana pretty easily, Elder gets the nod.
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Qasali Pridemage is more mana-efficient, but Wickerbough Elder is a +1 in Card Advantage. Since this is very much a Rock deck, and you should be hitting 5 mana pretty easily, Elder gets the nod.
and if hes brought back with recurring nightmare he can be used to keep the chain going
and if hes brought back with recurring nightmare he can be used to keep the chain going
Exactly right. It's better to have creatures in your graveyard anyway, and Pridemage comes down by Turn 2 with enough mana to activate right away in more scenarios than Elder. But you do want to keep a balanced curve for Birthing Pod nonetheless. The curve that seems to generally be the most reliable that I've found is approximately:
Even if you don't run Birthing Pod, it helps to have both a proportional number of easy-to-cast creatures for the beginning as well as enough muscle in single cards for late-game.
Well it depends on whether you run pod, how many wickerbough's you run (note: most people run a singleton as a GSZ target) so it essentially costs 6 mana to get a 4/4 and blow up an artifact/enchantment. This archetype is as customizable as The Rock, in a way this is essentially just a different version of rock built to abuse veteran explorer. I absolutely love this deck type though, I'm going to try out a GBW version with sun titan and co. to see how it goes. First I have to assemble this deck first though lol lots of unorthodox cards are in these decklists.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I don't want to stray too far from the original idea of the deck, but while looking at Caleb's list, I began to brew a spin-off of the deck.
- Uses unearth + eternal witness for it's recursion engine.
- Takes advantage of the many sac outlets (phyrexian tower, cabal therapy) as well as your own removal (GftT, Deed, Pulse) to play Percy , who is an extremely efficient beater.
- Green Sun's Zenith pulls bullets out of our deck, which can be used repeatedly through Witness and Unearth.
Planning on playtesting this deck against several major legacy archetypes to see how it stacks up. I will let everybody know the results.
Does anybody have any ideas on how to improve the creature base? It doesn't feel like deranged hermit is doing it for me. I do feel like I need a beater to grab with GSZ though.
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I don't want to stray too far from the original idea of the deck, but while looking at Caleb's list, I began to brew a spin-off of the deck.
- Uses unearth + eternal witness for it's recursion engine.
- Takes advantage of the many sac outlets (phyrexian tower, cabal therapy) as well as your own removal (GftT, Deed, Pulse) to play Percy , who is an extremely efficient beater.
- Green Sun's Zenith pulls bullets out of our deck, which can be used repeatedly through Witness and Unearth.
Planning on playtesting this deck against several major legacy archetypes to see how it stacks up. I will let everybody know the results.
Does anybody have any ideas on how to improve the creature base? It doesn't feel like deranged hermit is doing it for me. I do feel like I need a beater to grab with GSZ though.
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This is a really good point. But idk there are some amazing "i just win the game now" moments via white. I'm trying to get my best friend back into legacy with this archetype. I think Sun Titan, Llark, splash-white dudes (canonist, teeg) do too much to neglect it entirely. I think GB is definitely smoother mana-wise, but I cannot tell if it's "better" per se. STP is actually not needed but recurring chains from titan or llark are big. Rector is also a nice bonus, though I agree it's not needed.
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Here's the one that Caleb Durward ran http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-cracking-the-invitational/
2 Eternal Witness
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Grave Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Wall of Blossoms
Spells
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Go for the Throat
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Damnation
2 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Faerie Macabre
Trade List
This list looks pretty solid, but the lack of Birthing Pod makes me sad. Also I'm not sold on Grave Titan. What are thoughts on Wurmcoil Engine? Is it hurt too much by the popularity of Swords to Plowshares?
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Additionally, Grave Titan just kills the opponent in two turns.
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A single volrath's stronghold is fine. It is sometimes one of the last cards that gets put in or taken out of the BG lists. It is tough to support in the BGw lists.
Living Wish isn't very good for multiple reasons, first it gets exiled so it cant be reused with eternal witness. Second, the types of deck that prey on Nic Fit can't be solved by living wishing for an answer. The deck wants robust and multiple answers for poor matchups post board. This often means something like 4x leyline of the void, or 4x mindbreak trap, things like that. Essentially, post board, you want to make sure that your opponent does not go broken on you turns one and two. Additionally, you can't let your opponent out attrition you (ie 43 lands).
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The only advantage that Wurmcoil has is lifelink, (death-touch is irrelevant) and it isn't that important, as Grave Titain works just as well for stabilizing against aggro, and Kitchen Finks can help with lifegain.
Grave Titan has the added benefit of making at least 3 creatures, and more if left unanswered.
I think this can be considered a basic list, since it doesn't branch out to either Birthing Pod or Reoccurring Nightmare. Maybe it's just unnecessary as bombs are good enough for the late game.
Trade List
do u think Calabs list is the best one?
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I would say the main reason why you wouldn't easily be able to replace all the lands with basics is because of Hymn to Tourach. You want to be able to have the double black.
At the same time, I don't believe the deck looses too much, because of Veteran Explorer and Green Sun's Zenith are great at fixing
Trade List
Elder requires 5 mana to "pop" something but pridemage hits for three, and provides and exalted trigger while he's on the board. He's a much more efficient card.
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Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
and if hes brought back with recurring nightmare he can be used to keep the chain going
Exactly right. It's better to have creatures in your graveyard anyway, and Pridemage comes down by Turn 2 with enough mana to activate right away in more scenarios than Elder. But you do want to keep a balanced curve for Birthing Pod nonetheless. The curve that seems to generally be the most reliable that I've found is approximately:
1-Drops = 3 spots (just Explorer)
2-Drops = 4 spots
3-Drops = 5 spots
4-Drops = 4 spots
5-Drops = 2 spots
6-Drops = 2 spots
Even if you don't run Birthing Pod, it helps to have both a proportional number of easy-to-cast creatures for the beginning as well as enough muscle in single cards for late-game.
Currently Playing:
Retired
- Uses unearth + eternal witness for it's recursion engine.
- Takes advantage of the many sac outlets (phyrexian tower, cabal therapy) as well as your own removal (GftT, Deed, Pulse) to play Percy , who is an extremely efficient beater.
- Green Sun's Zenith pulls bullets out of our deck, which can be used repeatedly through Witness and Unearth.
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Abyssal Persecutor
3x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Viridian Zealot
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Unearth
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Go for the Throat
4x Forest
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
3x Windswept Heath
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
Planning on playtesting this deck against several major legacy archetypes to see how it stacks up. I will let everybody know the results.
Does anybody have any ideas on how to improve the creature base? It doesn't feel like deranged hermit is doing it for me. I do feel like I need a beater to grab with GSZ though.
How about Thrun?
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