What extra hate do we need against lands? Shouldn't 2x Prelate in the 75, 2x RIP, New Thalia, and Wastelands be enough?
RIP is the single most important card against Lands, so don't hesitate to up the count to 3 if you feel like you need them.
Everything else just complements RIP, but without the card itself the chances of winning postboard games are reduced singnificantly regardless of what other cards you draw.
I will note that you want to be very careful with sequencing Rest in Peace since Prelate is a great anti lands card when set to 2 which will make it so you can't cast a rest in peace.
Came up with a Prelate Bible of sorts. Feel free to use and add to.
Miracles - Name 1 if no Mother of Runes in play or small board presence, will turn off Plowshares, Brainstorm, Ponder, and perhaps most importantly, Top. If for whatever reason or another you were forced to commit a high amount of resources to the board, or if Mom-protected, this is where you name 6 for Terminus. Bonus points if you have the Vial @3 and bait the Terminus into being ‘Stifled’.
Eldrazi - Name 2; Warping Wail, Chalice @1, Jitte, Spatial Contortion. Could name 3 for the odd Trinisphere or Dismember, but I think 2 hits them harder overall.
Death & Taxes - Not a great matchup to use Prelate, but in game 1, I usually try to get into a situation where I have Jitte and then I name 2 so that my opponent can only get one in via a Mystic. I suppose it also stops the odd opposing Warping Wail as well. If in a situation where you need a Mom, you can name 1 and be some protection there, but I feel you also want to use Plowshares of your own in the mirror, so this one is iffy.
Delver (All) - Hopefully you emptied your Plowshares out of your hand already, so just name 1 first. They will be in a rut.
Show and Tell - Name 3. If you have to put a Prelate down *off* a Show and Tell, depending on the deck you might still name 3 to keep Cunning Wish and Wipe Away unavailable. If you’re against a non-Omni variety and have Emmy/Gris protection off of a Show and Tell (Karakas, Mangara, Banisher Priest, etc.), you can name 4 in the absence of a Revoker-effect for Sneak Attack.
BUG Cascade/Midrange - A lot of ‘ifs’ for this one. 2 is usually good because Abrupt Decay is their most live card in a lot of ways, but say you have a Mom-protected Mystic-into-Batterskull, up to a certain point where Toxic Deluge isn’t profitable for your opponent, lifewise, 3 is an alright name since it is often the only thing that can break a Mom-wall. However, you might also want to name 0 at a certain point to ‘counter’ Ancesntral Visions, so this one is really dependent on game state.
ANT/TES - Game 1, name 4, it’s practically impossible to beat. Game 2 I hear 2 is the better name since it shuts off the commonly used-Abrupt Decay amongst parts of their engine, though with Mom-protection, naming 4 still shuts off their win-con and Massacre, should that be part of their DnT-hate package.
Lands - Name 2. Shuts off Life From the Loam and Punishing Fire. If you get a 2nd Prelate, *then* name 1 for Crop Rotation and Molten Vortex. As mentioned above, careful with sequencing, re: Rest in Peace.
Infect - Name 1 after using your Plowshares; it will leave them with only Invigorate and Become Immense as pump spells, and shuts off Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, Stifle, Piracy Charm, Gitaxian Probe, Crop Rotation, etc.
Reanimator - Should you actually make it to turn 3, you’ll name 1 to hit more cards overall, though the deeper the game goes the worse Reanimate is, so then you’ll want to switch to naming 2 to hit more of the Reanimate spells in Exhume and Animate Dead, and possibly post-board, also Abrupt Decay. This one will be very game-state dependent, including other factors such as what your graveyard hate in hand is, if opponent has binned a fatty yet,.. Not until you have the yard locked out with Rest in Peace should you name something like 3 for possible Show and Tell.
Elves - Natural Order is the usual fastest kill spell, so name 4. It will also prevent opponent from the natural casting cost of Zenith’ing for a Reclamation Sage; they will have to make x=4. If you have Zenith and Natural Order locked out already with Containment Priest, then you can name 1 for Glimpse of Nature, although this is a rarer situation.
Jund - I would definitely name 2 here, as it shuts off a lot: Hymn to Tourach, Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Jitte, Golgari Charm, and some assorted others. Naming 3 might be correct in certain situations for Liliana, but it’s likely there are more CMC2 cards to worry about.
Burn - Another game-state dependent one. Naming 1 will hit the most spells - about 12 - Lighting Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Lava Spike. Naming 2 will get you Price of Progress and Searing Blaze, though they will come up less. You might need Prelate to prevent the blowout spell like Sulfuric Vortex or Fire Blast, but early enough on, naming 1 is the best choice, though the Prelate will be a candidate for a Flickerwisp trigger as the game goes late.
Stoneblade - Not a fantastic matchup for Prelate as their curve is very wide, and new builds also utilize the card in their sideboards, but the worst cards for DnT are usually the 4-drops: Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Supreme Verdict, and Humility.
Show and Tell: What about 10 if you are playing the Omniscience build and they have not played it?
Elves: 2 is also okay for Abrupt Decay, depending on what you have out (or don't, namely Mom or Jitte.)
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Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
They are never hardcasting Omniscience. They cast spells for free once it is down. Thalia still taxes noncreatures for 1, but they are casting nonetheless. If they are playing with Enter the Infinite, you can name 12, but again I'd say that's rarer that their outs with 3.
Edit: Actually, that's partially true. An exra Omni in hand might get cast off the one dropped from Show and Tell.
I recently went to a Legacy IQ and brought a mono-white Human (cavern of souls based list) to the event. Didn't do very well for two major reasons: deck registering error and multiple horrific mulligans.
I played against;
R1 Maverick 2-0
R2 Reanimator Deck Reg Error to match loss
R3 Shardless Sultai 2-0
R4 1-2 Infect
R5 1-2 Painter
R6 1-1 Grixis Control (Drop)
The deck was built to highlight Recruiter and Sanctum. Sanctum easily pulled its weight along with cavern of souls while Recruiter always was a bit of a struggle. I seem to see a lot of people highly regard Recruiter. The 1/1 body turn 3 and later was troublesome for me.
I'm actually here to understand what meta Recruiter is best in or is there another major sequence of plays that I'm missing? I'm not a shclub when it comes to Legcay but also admit it's become a format I almost don't recognize. My IQ had very minimal combo decks. What do you all believe he decks of concern are in the meta currently?
Any feedback would be appreciated. I have a few more Legacy events scheduled in my pipeline over the next couple of months and the insight of you vetted DNT pilots would help.
Deck regarding error usually only results in a game loss, not a whole match loss. That's odd.
Recruiter is great because it gives us card advantage and selection. As a top deck it is basically any creature in our deck that we may need to win a match.
This is a copy of something I just posted on The Source, in case you don't follow both threads.
I'll be writing an article about this at the beginning of next week, but here are some of my assorted thoughts on stuff I've seen/tested recently:
Aerial Responder was cute, but probably not good enough for the deck. It was worth testing, and it stays in my box of "when the metagame is right, there may be a time for you" cards. It's on a similar power level to Serra Avenger, though it fits in at the three drop slot, which is already a bit glutted as of late. When it came down, it was often a win-more card or could have been any generic beater and gotten the job done. It was, however, absolutely bonkers with equipment in a similar fashion to Mirran Crusader.
I'm on 3 Recruiter and 2 Prelate in the main. I really want to have a good number of Recruiters for the utter madness of Flickerwisp chains, which have been winning me tons of games. It almost doesn't matter what matchup it is; your opponents can just very quickly drown in 3/1 elementals. Many users here and on mtgs have been advocating two, but I'm really liking the full three; the deck plays out very smoothly. I also literally have no idea why people are trimming down to three Flickerwisp; that card has always been insane, and now we gave it a bunch of candy and set it loose on the world. I want to have two Prelates in the main, as in the matchups where it matters, a second Prelate is often a literal zero-outer situation.
I'm currently off THC, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. I'm relatively neutral on the card. I think both Iatee and Finn have seen different, valid sides of THC. THC has an extremely high ceiling and low floor as a card. When your opponent is stumbling, THC often wins the game on the spot by offering several timewalks. Against a Delver deck, curving Thalia into THC is basically insurmountable. In a couple of specific matchups (e.g. Elves, Eldrazi), the card is noticeably better than our other options. When you are on the draw against an average deck, THC does feel a little slow and its impact is often minimal (though its body and legendary status is still nothing to sneeze at). I tried to stay on the fence for a long time by playing one as a tutor target, but it just isn't great when coming down on turn 4 off a vial or turn four after tutoring on turn three. If you play THC, commit to it and play 2-3 to maximize its impact. I'm also wary about some of the builds I've been seeing that skip on staples like Revoker or Stonforge to try to fit in multiple THC.
I have moved away from bullets in the main. Banisher Priest got bumped to the sideboard after I realized that I was usually just getting Flickerwisp or Prelate off Recruiter anyway. I still 100% want Banisher Priest in the 75 though, and I prefer it to Mangara.
I'm considering running 'geddons like the list that was posted here a few days ago. It does, however, seem slightly against the plan of getting a bunch of lands into play and chaining Recruiters into more stuff. In terms of mana usage, Gideon and Recruiter are obviously quite different, and Gideon plays better with the get ahead and 'geddon plan. I've got the card ride to Baltimore to figure out how I feel about that. I really like the idea of curving Prelate on 1 into 'geddon against a huge portion of the field. I might just default back to something safer with another Council's Judgment and the Gideons.
Serra Avenger needs to be in the deck. I really wanted to cut it to maximize the human/Cavern synergy and reduce the WW requirements of the deck, but I've just been pleasantly surprised by it at just about every turn. I might even sneak back up to three copies.
I apologize for typos here, I'm wiped but felt like I should post something.
Thanks for the response. Game loss went to match loss because I scooped game one. I premature scooped to reanimator under the idea my sb was stacked for them and my game one was a mull to 5 and him on chancellor. We got deck checked mid scoop.
Avenger is consistently good in this deck mostly because we need evasive beaters to close games with. Until the day they release a an hyperefficient flying human I don't think Avenger is gonna go anywhere.
If anything you can use Resto in its place but she's not a Human either.
@Medea I don't have a problem with anything you said individually, but I'm struggling to achieve the numbers I want at any given point. Here's what I can put together with Gideons in the main, Catas in the side, 2x Serra Avenger, and 4x Flickerwisp. In all that, I still couldn't find room for a 3rd Recruiter:
Let's go back through some of the logic discussed in this thread:
Assuming Swords, Vials, and Equipment is basically untouchable along with 23 lands, that gives us 26 creatures to play with.
Mom, Thalia, SFM, and Flickerwisp are the core of any D&T list
Thalia is untouchable and a large part of why this deck works at all.
Mom is untouchable and many of her former weaknesses have been rectified by naming a specific number with Prelate, we want to run 4.
SFM can be touched, but many valid points were brought up about many matches hinging on a T2 SFM for Batterskull or Jitte, we probably want 4.
Flickerwisp is the best card in the deck when Vial is on 3, but the clunkiness of having 2 Flickerwisps in an opening hand was brought up as a reason to cut here if ANY of the core is going to get touched, and even then, 3 would be the minimum number advisable.
If we touch 1 card, that leaves 15 cards for core and 11 for everything else.
Outside of that, we've got the following:
Revoker has had his numbers moving up and down throughout the history of the deck. At one time he wsa a 4-of, but currently it's hard to justify more than 3 in any situation and many lists are running 0-2. Cut sparingly, but you may have to cut deeper than you feel comfortable here.
Serra Avenger - Historically, 2 or 3 copies have helped us apply pressure while blocking counter attacks. Most common numbers I'm currently seeing are 0 or 2.
Sanctum Prelate - Surprisingly, this card is a very consistent 2. Some lists run 0, I assume they just haven't bothered to buy the card yet. It's worth the slots.
Recruiter of the Guard - Never a 4-of, but we definitely want SOME to add a bit of library manipulation. 2 is the most common number but 3 is seen in large enough numbers that it's not a settled argument.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - I think a lot of people agree with the sentiment of the right number being 0, or 2-3. She's not a great tutor target by herself, but she can win entire games by herself if she comes down on T3. I had a game just this past weekend where she showed up a bit late, but just in time to cut my Miracles opponent off from finding a relevant answer in time to stop from dying. Great card, but possibly not worth playing?
Mirran Crusader - Used to be a 2-3, now seems to be a 0-1. Not much else to say.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - The idea of playing him MD has not gained traction until very recently where a list did very well with 2x Gideon in the MB and 3x Cataclysm in the SB. He definitely has a wider application than Cataclysm, but I don't know if I can say that makes him a "better" card, let alone MD playable.
Spirit of the Labyrinth, Ethersworn Canonist, Banisher Priest, Mangara of Corondor - All of these guys show up regularly as a 1-2 of in the MD and SB, but they vary so much I don't really know what to say here.
I know you mentioned justifications for individual cards, but can we see a whole list you're thinking about this weekend?
V1 hedges *very* strongly against Miracles and Lands, and likely has about 1 too many cards for the Lands matchup. V1 takes its inspiration from that mtgo decklist, but I've made adjustments for the new cards that aren't available yet.
V2 opts for a very safe manabase and a more traditional suite of sideboard cards; V2 is a little better against Shardless and Eldrazi. Since I'm playing 7 WW cards in the main, I dropped the Caverns that I'd normally be running with a THC build.
V1 hedges *very* strongly against Miracles and Lands, and likely has about 1 too many cards for the Lands matchup. V1 takes its inspiration from that mtgo decklist, but I've made adjustments for the new cards that aren't available yet.
V2 opts for a very safe manabase and a more traditional suite of sideboard cards; V2 is a little better against Shardless and Eldrazi. Since I'm playing 7 WW cards in the main, I dropped the Caverns that I'd normally be running with a THC build.
The creature shell is exactly what I'm going to try at the moment. I'm much closer to v2 on SB, but my lands aren't as set at the moment. Currently have 2 Caverns and 3 Karakas, mainly because I haven't fully evaluated it yet. Really like the idea of having a surplus of basics, though.
Yeah, this deck needs stable mana more than ever. I'd also consider running card 61 as another Plains. I'm just not losing games where I hit my land drops.
@SwordsToTimeshares thanks for the Prelate bible. I agree with all your points except ANT/TES. I believe 4 is always the correct number. I see the argument for naming 2 however. Then I swing back and think maybe you just always name 1...
I'm definitely in the pro-THC camp, and surprised @Medea it hasn't better performed for you. Considering the deck skews to want to get Vial to 3 ASAP, THC is kind of the new Ol' Reliable for beating Miracles with Karakas-protection, much like Thalia 1.0 has been in days past. But it beats for one more, and you are not punished by ticking your only Vial up from 2 to its now optimal position.
I know its been said that most never search up THC with Recruiter, and while it's mostly better to get Wisp, Prelate, or Mystic, I've found a few situations where THC was the best grab, namely against the 2 most popular decks, Miracles and Eldrazi. With enough disruption at the start, a turn 3 grab of a THC and turn 4 play can still be early enough to turn the game into a one-sided affair against Eldrazi, and the aforementioned Vial@3/Karakas bonus against Miracles, along with its Cavern-friendly subtype is just too good an insurance to pass up.
Sure, I might side her out if on the draw in a g2 now and then if I need room, but for combat-prowess, I don't think the deck does any better. I haven't even mentioned how well she double-blocks with her younger self; Gurmag Angler can just go piss off.
This is how I'm currently configuring for a 2K end of the month. I expect more Delver at such a thing, so while I was tempted too to try Gideon in the main, I think he's best reserved for when you know the game is going to go long. Cut as many nonbasic lands as you want - down to the possible 4x Port/Wasteland and 2x Karakas floated earlier - but that's still at least 10 of them. It's rare enough your first three land drops are all Plains even in that situation, so getting to 4 mana unabated gets a "good luck" and a salute, but that's it. Nevermind Daze and possibly your own Thalia in play.
Only thing I don't like from the outset is only 3x Mystic, but it's either that or just 1x Avenger, which I may even just do, but for now I'm playing matches more where I'm not using Mystic as a lightning rod as much, and with THC and Prelate, I'm more in a taxing mood early more often anyway. The turn 2 Mystic is something I'm trying in a less frequent fashion as such. I'd probably not do such a thing without the full set of Wisps and pair of Avengers, because counting Mystic like a semi-out to Delver like you can with our flyers, you need enough slots in the deck to readily combat the insect, under the assumption one or more may fail to contain it. Or go heavy on sidebord Path to Exile, but spots seem tight there enough already.
Other than that, I'm really liking being able to hit marks on all the other guys: THC only makes real sense in a maindeck capacity with at least 2 IMO, and you want the option at least to be able to hit two numbers with Prelate, so 2 and 2 there, good. I was trying just 2 Recruiter, but really missed the 3rd, so he's up there at the right spot. Wisp at 3, even when trying to be mindful of overuse of 3-drops and WW spells, just felt unnatural. Needs to be 4. Revoker I've made my peace with, and it's much better earlier and less likely to be searched, so 3 is probably correct there as well. Finally, while Mom is also sometimes missed as a 4-of, it's hard to argue with the logic of dropping one with Miracles and Eldrazi in the #1/2 spots.
I played in a 32-man GPT going 3-0-2 (not dropping a game), then conceding in the top8 to my opponent who needed the byes for GP Chiba (I'm not going anyway).
R1: Elves 1-0
G1 took a lot of time despite me having T2 Stoneforge into Jitte. It helped that he had pretty poor draws off of Glimpses, and didn't draw Cradles. He managed to reload his board with bodies even with an Active Jitte, because of his Glimpse and 2 Visionary's which was also returned via Symbiote a couple of times. G2 went to time with me on turn 3 of turns, dropping a Revoker on Heritage Druid, and a Prelate on 4, leaving him with one out, Craterhoof. He drew GSZ, but needed one more mana for Craterhoof.
R2: Junk 2-0
G1 he mulled, and I took advantage of his mana screw, wasn't really much of a game. G2 he got an earlier Jitte, but was stuck on 3 lands, while I had 2 vials and ports (which he needled). He played Engineered Plague on Human when I got a Mother in play (bound to control the game, in conjunction with a Jitte), but then he drew Confidants which he couldn't play. Did do the Recruiter into Flicker, into Flicker play here.
R3: ANT 2-0
G1 Recruiter into Revoker happened (after he had just Infernal Tutor'd for a 2nd LED, setting up a win the following turn), and followed by another Recruiter into Thalia. G2 Fought through a Dread of Night which killed of a Mother and Thalia. Had RiP, I went Stoneforge into SoWaP which got equipped on Prelate on 2. It swung for a big chunk of damage leaving him with 6 life, and it was just too little life left as he died from his Ad Naus.
R4: ID
R5: ID
Top8: Lands, I honestly think Prelate on 2 really gives us a lot of game against this once not so great matchup.
This was my first tournament since I got my Recruiters and Prelates. Both were awesome. I couldn't decide for the last 2 slots so I ended up going with one each of Serra Avenger and Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Both had their moments. I might keep the split for now. I know it's not ideal, but this setup moves me to 10 3-drops instead of 11, gives me 5 fliers and 14/26 humans for Cavern of Souls.
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Legacy:
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Urza, Lord High Artificer
Yea the Lands matchup is laughable now. They need to combo out their Marit Lage - with protection - before turn 4, or it's nearly plain over thanks to Prelate. And it's already hard for them to get Marit Lage through the Karakas and Wisps. I'd say we might have been slightly favored at best before (this if you ran Mangara and more than 2x Rest in Peace for GY hate), but now DnT is heavily favored in my experience. Nice tourney result.
Match 1: Food Chain
2-1
Having only played against Food Chain once years ago I had about 50 questions for the judge each game. Admittedly I still don't understand the deck all that well so maybe there were better plays for me to make.
Game 1. fetches into trop and underground while cantripping a couple times. I put him on some weird SnT deck so I run out thalia. His turn 3 is a Fierce Empath and because I don't really know how to play against food chain I just swords the Empath, the death rite that comes down the next turn, and the other Empath he plays the turn after and he scoops to thalia and a recruited wingmare.
Game 2. I still don't understand Food Chain. He makes an emrakul happen on turn 3. I scoop
Game 3. I remember from the last time I played Food Chain to not try to Pithing Needle it and look stupid. Opening hand mom thalia wingmare. I curve out and on t4 drop a prelate naming 3 to which he scoops.
Ins: 2 crusader 1 ghost quarter 1 armageddon
Outs: 2 revokers 2 mother of runes
MVP: Wingmare prevents him from ever playing foodchain, makes me want to play a one of more regularly.
LVP: Mother of Runes I guess, very little removal from Food Chain
Record 1-0
Match 2: Death and Taxes
1-2
Game 1: Opening hand of land land land revoker flickerwisp jitte Swords. On the play land pass. drop revoker naming SFM preemptively. He plays Thalia and passes. His turn 3 he hardcasts jitte and passes, I EoT swords Thalia and on my turn play and equip jitte to revoker and win the game off the counter wars.
Game 2: I mull to 4 and find MoM, MoM, SFM, Swords. Scry away a batterskull and proceed to draw jitte and SoFaI before scooping to game 3.
Game 3: I'm officially impressed by orzhov pontiff. I have a flickerwisp and THC in hand with a vial at three. he has a vial at 3 as well. I have an empty board with jitte, at the end of his main phase I vial in my flickerwisp to remove his vial counters, so he can't vial in his own flickerwisp EoT to flick my Jitte, he vials in orzhov pontiff in response to flickerwisp targeting his vial and blows me out by killing my flickerwisp. he lands a manriki-gusari next turn and beats me to death with a 2/3 pontiff. It seems greedy to play pontiff in a mono white list, but it won him our match, and the match previously in which he played against DnT also. It definitely warrants testing.
Record 1-1
Outs: 1 Wingmare 2 Thalia GoT 1 Prelate
Ins: 1x Gut Shot 1x Gideon 1x SoWaP 1 Pithing Needle
MVP: Flickerwisp - unequipping jittes hexmaging vials and more, this card is a superstar in this match up.
LVP: Thalia, heretic Cathar - Feels irrelevant in the matchup with moms and fliers.
Match 3: Miracles
2-0
This match up seems pretty impossible to lose now.
Game 1: Both games are the same. He can't assemble the lock. Two recruiters put the game away when he had to expend removal on my 1/1s. he dies to SFM equipped with SOFAI game one and dies to Revoker(naming top) equipped with SOWAP game two after having to cast a supreme verdict for 6 through Thalia and Wingmare. A Prelate on 6 in game one is unbeatable with an active mom.
Ins: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Armageddon, Pithing Needle, ethersworn canonist
Outs: 1 displacer 2 swords 1 mother of runes
MVP: Recruiter of the Guard - Feels broken in this matchup
LVP: Displacer - Doesn't protect from terminus wipes like flickerwisp/karakas
2-1
Match 4: Stifle Delvernaught?
2-0
A really weird brew that a friend of a friend brought.
Game one he gets a turn two dreadnought with stifle, but I have flickerwisp with a cavern of souls in hand and he has to sac the dreadnought.
Game two: He gets two delvers down early and dazes my greedy swords, but I have avengers and flickerwisps in hand and a prelate to turn off his removal.
Ins: Gut Shot Sunlance Canonist (to prevent stiflenought, which I realized after the match wouldn't work anyways.)
Outs: 2x revoker 1x displacer
MVP: Flickerwisp - beats Dreadnought and flips delvers, what else is there to say.
LVP: Recruiter of the Guard - Much too slow against Delver. I think every Recruiter comes out.
I went 3-3 at the NRG Legacy Trials today. About 40 people showed up so it was 6 rounds before cut to top 8. My list was based off of @Medea's v2 he posted a few days back:
Round 1: Affinity
It was his first Legacy tournament. Win.
Round 2: Elves
He ended up making it to the quarter finals. We had a really close game 1 that was about 20 minutes, but I lost to the second Craterhoof. Game two I made an egregious misplay by exiling my own Recruiter via Containment Priest and Aether Vial. Loss.
Round 3: Aluren
Game 1 I got totally faked out into thinking he was playing Shardless. He cast DRS, Shardless Agent, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy... then suddenly Aluren hits the board and I insta-loose. Game 2 was a bit better; I managed to keep him off balance but again he got the combo. Loss.
Round 4: Miracles
Fastest games ever. I created the ultimate nightmare of all Miracles mages: Prelate on 6 dual-wielding a SoFaI and a SoWaP. Both games I wound up with a Prelate and 1 and a Prelate on 6. Win.
Round 5: Death & Taxes
These were long and confusing games. We both misplayed a lot. Some of the interactions got especially confusing. I foolishly named Manriki-Gusari with a Revoker... He foolishly Flicker'd his own Recruiter with his own Containment Priest on board. I always side out Vial when I play the mirror, so I was glad to see him bring in Priest. It ended up being a nuclear arms race of Flickerwisp's + Priest. Win.
Round 6: Burn
Game 1 I just died. Game 2 I made the second egregious misplay of the day. I attacked with a Batterskull. He had a Sulfuric Vortex. We went to damage. I had the Disenchant in my hand. I forgot Sulfuric Vortex had a second line of text. Loss.
Overall:
I enjoy this creature package. The deck felt really good. Chaining Wisps is the real deal. Prelate is great. I was happy to have Serra Avengers too. Revokers were awesome all day. I'm really eyeballing cutting Containment Priests all together now. Since the Recruiter + Wisp combo is so powerful and our deck is kinda based on Aether Vial, it seems like REALLY BAD deck building to have such a nonbo. I dunno. Someone talk me off the cliff.
I will note that you want to be very careful with sequencing Rest in Peace since Prelate is a great anti lands card when set to 2 which will make it so you can't cast a rest in peace.
Elves: 2 is also okay for Abrupt Decay, depending on what you have out (or don't, namely Mom or Jitte.)
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Edit: Actually, that's partially true. An exra Omni in hand might get cast off the one dropped from Show and Tell.
I recently went to a Legacy IQ and brought a mono-white Human (cavern of souls based list) to the event. Didn't do very well for two major reasons: deck registering error and multiple horrific mulligans.
I played against;
R1 Maverick 2-0
R2 Reanimator Deck Reg Error to match loss
R3 Shardless Sultai 2-0
R4 1-2 Infect
R5 1-2 Painter
R6 1-1 Grixis Control (Drop)
The deck was built to highlight Recruiter and Sanctum. Sanctum easily pulled its weight along with cavern of souls while Recruiter always was a bit of a struggle. I seem to see a lot of people highly regard Recruiter. The 1/1 body turn 3 and later was troublesome for me.
I'm actually here to understand what meta Recruiter is best in or is there another major sequence of plays that I'm missing? I'm not a shclub when it comes to Legcay but also admit it's become a format I almost don't recognize. My IQ had very minimal combo decks. What do you all believe he decks of concern are in the meta currently?
Any feedback would be appreciated. I have a few more Legacy events scheduled in my pipeline over the next couple of months and the insight of you vetted DNT pilots would help.
-Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Recruiter is great because it gives us card advantage and selection. As a top deck it is basically any creature in our deck that we may need to win a match.
I'll be writing an article about this at the beginning of next week, but here are some of my assorted thoughts on stuff I've seen/tested recently:
Aerial Responder was cute, but probably not good enough for the deck. It was worth testing, and it stays in my box of "when the metagame is right, there may be a time for you" cards. It's on a similar power level to Serra Avenger, though it fits in at the three drop slot, which is already a bit glutted as of late. When it came down, it was often a win-more card or could have been any generic beater and gotten the job done. It was, however, absolutely bonkers with equipment in a similar fashion to Mirran Crusader.
I'm on 3 Recruiter and 2 Prelate in the main. I really want to have a good number of Recruiters for the utter madness of Flickerwisp chains, which have been winning me tons of games. It almost doesn't matter what matchup it is; your opponents can just very quickly drown in 3/1 elementals. Many users here and on mtgs have been advocating two, but I'm really liking the full three; the deck plays out very smoothly. I also literally have no idea why people are trimming down to three Flickerwisp; that card has always been insane, and now we gave it a bunch of candy and set it loose on the world. I want to have two Prelates in the main, as in the matchups where it matters, a second Prelate is often a literal zero-outer situation.
I'm currently off THC, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. I'm relatively neutral on the card. I think both Iatee and Finn have seen different, valid sides of THC. THC has an extremely high ceiling and low floor as a card. When your opponent is stumbling, THC often wins the game on the spot by offering several timewalks. Against a Delver deck, curving Thalia into THC is basically insurmountable. In a couple of specific matchups (e.g. Elves, Eldrazi), the card is noticeably better than our other options. When you are on the draw against an average deck, THC does feel a little slow and its impact is often minimal (though its body and legendary status is still nothing to sneeze at). I tried to stay on the fence for a long time by playing one as a tutor target, but it just isn't great when coming down on turn 4 off a vial or turn four after tutoring on turn three. If you play THC, commit to it and play 2-3 to maximize its impact. I'm also wary about some of the builds I've been seeing that skip on staples like Revoker or Stonforge to try to fit in multiple THC.
I have moved away from bullets in the main. Banisher Priest got bumped to the sideboard after I realized that I was usually just getting Flickerwisp or Prelate off Recruiter anyway. I still 100% want Banisher Priest in the 75 though, and I prefer it to Mangara.
I'm considering running 'geddons like the list that was posted here a few days ago. It does, however, seem slightly against the plan of getting a bunch of lands into play and chaining Recruiters into more stuff. In terms of mana usage, Gideon and Recruiter are obviously quite different, and Gideon plays better with the get ahead and 'geddon plan. I've got the card ride to Baltimore to figure out how I feel about that. I really like the idea of curving Prelate on 1 into 'geddon against a huge portion of the field. I might just default back to something safer with another Council's Judgment and the Gideons.
Serra Avenger needs to be in the deck. I really wanted to cut it to maximize the human/Cavern synergy and reduce the WW requirements of the deck, but I've just been pleasantly surprised by it at just about every turn. I might even sneak back up to three copies.
I apologize for typos here, I'm wiped but felt like I should post something.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
If anything you can use Resto in its place but she's not a Human either.
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares
Planeswalker (2)
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Karakas
7x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Artifact (7)
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Cataclysm
2x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
Let's go back through some of the logic discussed in this thread:
Assuming Swords, Vials, and Equipment is basically untouchable along with 23 lands, that gives us 26 creatures to play with.
Mom, Thalia, SFM, and Flickerwisp are the core of any D&T list
Thalia is untouchable and a large part of why this deck works at all.
Mom is untouchable and many of her former weaknesses have been rectified by naming a specific number with Prelate, we want to run 4.
SFM can be touched, but many valid points were brought up about many matches hinging on a T2 SFM for Batterskull or Jitte, we probably want 4.
Flickerwisp is the best card in the deck when Vial is on 3, but the clunkiness of having 2 Flickerwisps in an opening hand was brought up as a reason to cut here if ANY of the core is going to get touched, and even then, 3 would be the minimum number advisable.
If we touch 1 card, that leaves 15 cards for core and 11 for everything else.
Outside of that, we've got the following:
Revoker has had his numbers moving up and down throughout the history of the deck. At one time he wsa a 4-of, but currently it's hard to justify more than 3 in any situation and many lists are running 0-2. Cut sparingly, but you may have to cut deeper than you feel comfortable here.
Serra Avenger - Historically, 2 or 3 copies have helped us apply pressure while blocking counter attacks. Most common numbers I'm currently seeing are 0 or 2.
Sanctum Prelate - Surprisingly, this card is a very consistent 2. Some lists run 0, I assume they just haven't bothered to buy the card yet. It's worth the slots.
Recruiter of the Guard - Never a 4-of, but we definitely want SOME to add a bit of library manipulation. 2 is the most common number but 3 is seen in large enough numbers that it's not a settled argument.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - I think a lot of people agree with the sentiment of the right number being 0, or 2-3. She's not a great tutor target by herself, but she can win entire games by herself if she comes down on T3. I had a game just this past weekend where she showed up a bit late, but just in time to cut my Miracles opponent off from finding a relevant answer in time to stop from dying. Great card, but possibly not worth playing?
Mirran Crusader - Used to be a 2-3, now seems to be a 0-1. Not much else to say.
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - The idea of playing him MD has not gained traction until very recently where a list did very well with 2x Gideon in the MB and 3x Cataclysm in the SB. He definitely has a wider application than Cataclysm, but I don't know if I can say that makes him a "better" card, let alone MD playable.
Spirit of the Labyrinth, Ethersworn Canonist, Banisher Priest, Mangara of Corondor - All of these guys show up regularly as a 1-2 of in the MD and SB, but they vary so much I don't really know what to say here.
I know you mentioned justifications for individual cards, but can we see a whole list you're thinking about this weekend?
9 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
Creatures (26)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Council’s Judgment
3 Rest in Peace
3 Armageddon
1 Banisher Priest
1 Pithing Needle
13 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
Creatures (26)
3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Council’s Judgment
3 Rest in Peace
1 Banisher Priest
1 Pithing Needle
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
V1 hedges *very* strongly against Miracles and Lands, and likely has about 1 too many cards for the Lands matchup. V1 takes its inspiration from that mtgo decklist, but I've made adjustments for the new cards that aren't available yet.
V2 opts for a very safe manabase and a more traditional suite of sideboard cards; V2 is a little better against Shardless and Eldrazi. Since I'm playing 7 WW cards in the main, I dropped the Caverns that I'd normally be running with a THC build.
The creature shell is exactly what I'm going to try at the moment. I'm much closer to v2 on SB, but my lands aren't as set at the moment. Currently have 2 Caverns and 3 Karakas, mainly because I haven't fully evaluated it yet. Really like the idea of having a surplus of basics, though.
I know its been said that most never search up THC with Recruiter, and while it's mostly better to get Wisp, Prelate, or Mystic, I've found a few situations where THC was the best grab, namely against the 2 most popular decks, Miracles and Eldrazi. With enough disruption at the start, a turn 3 grab of a THC and turn 4 play can still be early enough to turn the game into a one-sided affair against Eldrazi, and the aforementioned Vial@3/Karakas bonus against Miracles, along with its Cavern-friendly subtype is just too good an insurance to pass up.
Sure, I might side her out if on the draw in a g2 now and then if I need room, but for combat-prowess, I don't think the deck does any better. I haven't even mentioned how well she double-blocks with her younger self; Gurmag Angler can just go piss off.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Serra Avenger
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scrubland
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Containment Priest
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Council's Judgment
Only thing I don't like from the outset is only 3x Mystic, but it's either that or just 1x Avenger, which I may even just do, but for now I'm playing matches more where I'm not using Mystic as a lightning rod as much, and with THC and Prelate, I'm more in a taxing mood early more often anyway. The turn 2 Mystic is something I'm trying in a less frequent fashion as such. I'd probably not do such a thing without the full set of Wisps and pair of Avengers, because counting Mystic like a semi-out to Delver like you can with our flyers, you need enough slots in the deck to readily combat the insect, under the assumption one or more may fail to contain it. Or go heavy on sidebord Path to Exile, but spots seem tight there enough already.
Other than that, I'm really liking being able to hit marks on all the other guys: THC only makes real sense in a maindeck capacity with at least 2 IMO, and you want the option at least to be able to hit two numbers with Prelate, so 2 and 2 there, good. I was trying just 2 Recruiter, but really missed the 3rd, so he's up there at the right spot. Wisp at 3, even when trying to be mindful of overuse of 3-drops and WW spells, just felt unnatural. Needs to be 4. Revoker I've made my peace with, and it's much better earlier and less likely to be searched, so 3 is probably correct there as well. Finally, while Mom is also sometimes missed as a 4-of, it's hard to argue with the logic of dropping one with Miracles and Eldrazi in the #1/2 spots.
R1: Elves 1-0
G1 took a lot of time despite me having T2 Stoneforge into Jitte. It helped that he had pretty poor draws off of Glimpses, and didn't draw Cradles. He managed to reload his board with bodies even with an Active Jitte, because of his Glimpse and 2 Visionary's which was also returned via Symbiote a couple of times. G2 went to time with me on turn 3 of turns, dropping a Revoker on Heritage Druid, and a Prelate on 4, leaving him with one out, Craterhoof. He drew GSZ, but needed one more mana for Craterhoof.
R2: Junk 2-0
G1 he mulled, and I took advantage of his mana screw, wasn't really much of a game. G2 he got an earlier Jitte, but was stuck on 3 lands, while I had 2 vials and ports (which he needled). He played Engineered Plague on Human when I got a Mother in play (bound to control the game, in conjunction with a Jitte), but then he drew Confidants which he couldn't play. Did do the Recruiter into Flicker, into Flicker play here.
R3: ANT 2-0
G1 Recruiter into Revoker happened (after he had just Infernal Tutor'd for a 2nd LED, setting up a win the following turn), and followed by another Recruiter into Thalia. G2 Fought through a Dread of Night which killed of a Mother and Thalia. Had RiP, I went Stoneforge into SoWaP which got equipped on Prelate on 2. It swung for a big chunk of damage leaving him with 6 life, and it was just too little life left as he died from his Ad Naus.
R4: ID
R5: ID
Top8: Lands, I honestly think Prelate on 2 really gives us a lot of game against this once not so great matchup.
This was my first tournament since I got my Recruiters and Prelates. Both were awesome. I couldn't decide for the last 2 slots so I ended up going with one each of Serra Avenger and Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Both had their moments. I might keep the split for now. I know it's not ideal, but this setup moves me to 10 3-drops instead of 11, gives me 5 fliers and 14/26 humans for Cavern of Souls.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
1x Vryn Wingmare
1x Eldrazi Displacer
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Sanctum Prelate
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Swords to Plowshares
Land (23)
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
11x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
1x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Wasteland
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Containment Priest
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Gut Shot
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Pithing Needle
3x Rest in Peace
1x Sunlance
1x Sword of War and Peace
Match 1:
Food Chain
2-1
Having only played against Food Chain once years ago I had about 50 questions for the judge each game. Admittedly I still don't understand the deck all that well so maybe there were better plays for me to make.
Game 1. fetches into trop and underground while cantripping a couple times. I put him on some weird SnT deck so I run out thalia. His turn 3 is a Fierce Empath and because I don't really know how to play against food chain I just swords the Empath, the death rite that comes down the next turn, and the other Empath he plays the turn after and he scoops to thalia and a recruited wingmare.
Game 2. I still don't understand Food Chain. He makes an emrakul happen on turn 3. I scoop
Game 3. I remember from the last time I played Food Chain to not try to Pithing Needle it and look stupid. Opening hand mom thalia wingmare. I curve out and on t4 drop a prelate naming 3 to which he scoops.
Ins: 2 crusader 1 ghost quarter 1 armageddon
Outs: 2 revokers 2 mother of runes
MVP: Wingmare prevents him from ever playing foodchain, makes me want to play a one of more regularly.
LVP: Mother of Runes I guess, very little removal from Food Chain
Record 1-0
Match 2:
Death and Taxes
1-2
Game 1: Opening hand of land land land revoker flickerwisp jitte Swords. On the play land pass. drop revoker naming SFM preemptively. He plays Thalia and passes. His turn 3 he hardcasts jitte and passes, I EoT swords Thalia and on my turn play and equip jitte to revoker and win the game off the counter wars.
Game 2: I mull to 4 and find MoM, MoM, SFM, Swords. Scry away a batterskull and proceed to draw jitte and SoFaI before scooping to game 3.
Game 3: I'm officially impressed by orzhov pontiff. I have a flickerwisp and THC in hand with a vial at three. he has a vial at 3 as well. I have an empty board with jitte, at the end of his main phase I vial in my flickerwisp to remove his vial counters, so he can't vial in his own flickerwisp EoT to flick my Jitte, he vials in orzhov pontiff in response to flickerwisp targeting his vial and blows me out by killing my flickerwisp. he lands a manriki-gusari next turn and beats me to death with a 2/3 pontiff. It seems greedy to play pontiff in a mono white list, but it won him our match, and the match previously in which he played against DnT also. It definitely warrants testing.
Record 1-1
Outs: 1 Wingmare 2 Thalia GoT 1 Prelate
Ins: 1x Gut Shot 1x Gideon 1x SoWaP 1 Pithing Needle
MVP: Flickerwisp - unequipping jittes hexmaging vials and more, this card is a superstar in this match up.
LVP: Thalia, heretic Cathar - Feels irrelevant in the matchup with moms and fliers.
Match 3:
Miracles
2-0
This match up seems pretty impossible to lose now.
Game 1: Both games are the same. He can't assemble the lock. Two recruiters put the game away when he had to expend removal on my 1/1s. he dies to SFM equipped with SOFAI game one and dies to Revoker(naming top) equipped with SOWAP game two after having to cast a supreme verdict for 6 through Thalia and Wingmare. A Prelate on 6 in game one is unbeatable with an active mom.
Ins: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Armageddon, Pithing Needle, ethersworn canonist
Outs: 1 displacer 2 swords 1 mother of runes
MVP: Recruiter of the Guard - Feels broken in this matchup
LVP: Displacer - Doesn't protect from terminus wipes like flickerwisp/karakas
2-1
Match 4:
Stifle Delvernaught?
2-0
A really weird brew that a friend of a friend brought.
Game one he gets a turn two dreadnought with stifle, but I have flickerwisp with a cavern of souls in hand and he has to sac the dreadnought.
Game two: He gets two delvers down early and dazes my greedy swords, but I have avengers and flickerwisps in hand and a prelate to turn off his removal.
Ins: Gut Shot Sunlance Canonist (to prevent stiflenought, which I realized after the match wouldn't work anyways.)
Outs: 2x revoker 1x displacer
MVP: Flickerwisp - beats Dreadnought and flips delvers, what else is there to say.
LVP: Recruiter of the Guard - Much too slow against Delver. I think every Recruiter comes out.
Final record: 3-1
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Council’s Judgment
3 Rest in Peace
1 Banisher Priest
1 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Round 1: Affinity
It was his first Legacy tournament. Win.
Round 2: Elves
He ended up making it to the quarter finals. We had a really close game 1 that was about 20 minutes, but I lost to the second Craterhoof. Game two I made an egregious misplay by exiling my own Recruiter via Containment Priest and Aether Vial. Loss.
Round 3: Aluren
Game 1 I got totally faked out into thinking he was playing Shardless. He cast DRS, Shardless Agent, Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy... then suddenly Aluren hits the board and I insta-loose. Game 2 was a bit better; I managed to keep him off balance but again he got the combo. Loss.
Round 4: Miracles
Fastest games ever. I created the ultimate nightmare of all Miracles mages: Prelate on 6 dual-wielding a SoFaI and a SoWaP. Both games I wound up with a Prelate and 1 and a Prelate on 6. Win.
Round 5: Death & Taxes
These were long and confusing games. We both misplayed a lot. Some of the interactions got especially confusing. I foolishly named Manriki-Gusari with a Revoker... He foolishly Flicker'd his own Recruiter with his own Containment Priest on board. I always side out Vial when I play the mirror, so I was glad to see him bring in Priest. It ended up being a nuclear arms race of Flickerwisp's + Priest. Win.
Round 6: Burn
Game 1 I just died. Game 2 I made the second egregious misplay of the day. I attacked with a Batterskull. He had a Sulfuric Vortex. We went to damage. I had the Disenchant in my hand. I forgot Sulfuric Vortex had a second line of text. Loss.
Overall:
I enjoy this creature package. The deck felt really good. Chaining Wisps is the real deal. Prelate is great. I was happy to have Serra Avengers too. Revokers were awesome all day. I'm really eyeballing cutting Containment Priests all together now. Since the Recruiter + Wisp combo is so powerful and our deck is kinda based on Aether Vial, it seems like REALLY BAD deck building to have such a nonbo. I dunno. Someone talk me off the cliff.