I'm expecting an up-tick in combo and RUG Delver. These lists often run 3 FOW main and the 4th in the side, but because of the expected up-tick in combo I've put the 4th in the main for now. I'm also leaning fairly heavily on discard. I'm including 2 Dig Through Time for now but it's possible that 1 is the right number. 0, 1, or 2 could all be right but likely no more than 2, so I'm starting at the top end and will adjust down as necessary. Board is built to cover many bases as I'm not sure how the meta will shake out. I'm also being a little greedy on 20 lands but I often build decks slightly on the greedy side when it comes to that.
I'm expecting an up-tick in combo and RUG Delver. These lists often run 3 FOW main and the 4th in the side, but because of the expected up-tick in combo I've put the 4th in the main for now. I'm also leaning fairly heavily on discard. I'm including 2 Dig Through Time for now but it's possible that 1 is the right number. 0, 1, or 2 could all be right but likely no more than 2, so I'm starting at the top end and will adjust down as necessary. Board is built to cover many bases as I'm not sure how the meta will shake out. I'm also being a little greedy on 20 lands but I often build decks slightly on the greedy side when it comes to that.
Seems like our maindecks are exactly the same except that you went -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Land +2 Dig Through Time. How are you liking it? I'm more inclined to add 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, since a little more beef won't hurt at all, and a card that only dies to Swords to Plowshares effect on top of walling Tarmos, Batterskulls and all the usual creatures with the ability to slowly claw back at the game stapled in seems really attractive to me.
Our other MD difference is that you're on 3 FOW and 4 Visions while I have those numbers flipped for the time being - 4 FOW, 3 Visions.
I haven't tested Tasigur at all, but I don't hate the idea. He performs a lot of the same functions as Dig Through Time but provides a body that blanks bolt, abrupt decay, etc. My one complaint about him is that he has no evasion - no flying, trample, landwalk, unblockable, etc. Young Pyromancer tokens or Lingering Souls tokens can blank him very well, but of course he's doing something else for you at the same time.
His ability is a nice mana-sink at the end of the opponent's turn, just like Dig.
I believe there won't be that many Young Pyromancers in my meta, and even if there are, Abrupt Decay deals with him, and Lingering Souls is practically non-existant, so that's why I might be more inclined to run him. Plus, the same can be said about Tarmo, really...
Also it doesn't work quite the same as Dig Through Time, since it only digs two cards deep and gives you the worst one, but it can be activated repeatedly and shrink enemy goyfs / blank DRS. It's similar in the fact that gives you CA, but it's not the same quality or digging power as DTT.
I believe there won't be that many Young Pyromancers in my meta, and even if there are, Abrupt Decay deals with him, and Lingering Souls is practically non-existant, so that's why I might be more inclined to run him. Plus, the same can be said about Tarmo, really...
In the sense of being blocked, yes, but Tarmo only EVER costs 2 and can be cascaded into with our namesake card. This makes Tarmo both much more efficient and also much better suited for our particular deck.
Also it doesn't work quite the same as Dig Through Time, since it only digs two cards deep and gives you the worst one, but it can be activated repeatedly and shrink enemy goyfs / blank DRS. It's similar in the fact that gives you CA, but it's not the same quality or digging power as DTT.
No, it certainly isn't identical to a DTT, and I never claimed it was. But it performs a similar FUNCTION - late-game mana sink that provides card advantage. Just remember they can give you back any non-land card in your 'yard, not just one of the two you just flipped. I'm not sure if that makes him better or worse. It gives your opponents more options, so I'm leaning toward worse.
Conceptually I'm not a fan of Sultai Charm in our list. It's yet another card that we can't cascade into and I believe each one of its modes is substantially over-costed. Here are the things it does: Ultimate Price, Naturalize, Tormenting Voice. Each is 2CMC but more importantly each is 1 colored mana and 1 colorless. Each is also only marginally playable in its Standard environment and not playable in older formats. This makes you pay 3 colors for one of these. It gets a big "meh" from me. If you swtich Tormenting Voice to Catalog it only gets marginally better, but not nearly enough.
Conceptually I'm not a fan of Sultai Charm in our list. It's yet another card that we can't cascade into and I believe each one of its modes is substantially over-costed. Here are the things it does: Ultimate Price, Naturalize, Tormenting Voice. Each is 2CMC but more importantly each is 1 colored mana and 1 colorless. Each is also only marginally playable in its Standard environment and not playable in older formats. This makes you pay 3 colors for one of these. It gets a big "meh" from me. If you swtich Tormenting Voice to Catalog it only gets marginally better, but not nearly enough.
You are right that the card cannot be cascaded into, and you're right that it's overcosted compared to their respective versions, but you have also to factor in the opportunity cost: each of these cards individually can and will be dead at certain situations or even entire games because we're playing against a deck with no creatures, for example. Sultai Charm won't be dead in any of these cases because it has two other relevant mode, the worst one being the last. It's overcosted, but it's the price you pay for flexibility on a card. Comparing it to Maelstrom Pulse:
+ Instant speed
+ Same CMC
+ Kills opossing Tarmos while not destroying our own
- Doesn't kill Planeswalkers
- Doesn't deal with Pyromancer army
The hugest one I think is is instant speed though, because as I said, it's very relevant vs Combo.
The hugest one I think is is instant speed though, because as I said, it's very relevant vs Combo.
I had to look back at what you said previously because I wouldn't have thought Sultai Charm had any real impact on our combo matchups. Here's what you said earlier:
I think that slotting in a card like Sultai Charm for these reasons is a losing proposition. Here's a quick discussion of the card against the specific threats you mention.
Sultai Charm against Griselbrand. No matter how you cut it, if you're killing a resolved Griselbrand then the opponent is drawing 7 cards (barring corner-case scenarios or issues where they're at 7 or lower). So in this scenario here's how Sultai Charm effectively reads: "GBU, Instant, Destroy target creature an opponent controls. That creature's controller loses 7 life and draws 7 cards." I certainly wouldn't pay 3 mana for that. You traded a card for their on-board beater and gave them 7 cards to get ahead with. Quite often one of those 7, which were drawn while Sultai Charm was on the stack, can and will counter the Sultai Charm.
Sultai Charm against Worldgorger Dragon. Of course, we have yet to see whether he makes a re-appearance in Reanimator or any other decks, but conceptually killing him is troublesome. Yes, there's a window where you can mess with their triggers with an instant speed kill spell and permanently exile all their permanents, but hopefully a good player knows how to play the card around that. That means you're down a card while they're looping their combo together. Remember we're a counterspell-light deck so we don't have the tools to fight a counter-battle.
Sultai Charm against Painter's Servant. I'm not too keen on playing a blue kill spell against the Red Elemental Blast deck. For that matter, there are still MD Pyroblasts and REBs floating around from this past Treasure Cruise meta, so Sultai Charm is already at risk. But especially against this deck, which almost always chooses "blue" anyway, you know they'll have an answer to it. You're not down cards if they counter with the REB or Pyro, but you're down tempo (your 3CMC for their 1CMC) and you haven't affected their combo.
Against all of these decks pointing a Sultai Charm at the on-board combo piece is an attempt to clutch on to the slimmest possibility you won't get killed. The better strategy, it seems to me, is to prevent them from getting that piece on the board to begin with. That's why I have 3 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseizes, and 2 Lilis as well as going up to the full 4 Force of Wills while having extra counter magic in the board. If Sultai Charm were uncounterable or if it had Split Second then I think it would be an OK include. But lacking either of those elements I think you can include a more impactful and efficient card in its stead.
I agree that the third Lili is usually unnecessary and that Jitte is better than Plague. When are you bringing in Life from the Loam? You may want another kill spell or sweeper in that slot instead, especially considering the decks you faced in your earlier post. Think of maybe Engineered Explosives, Massacre, or another Toxic Deluge. Even Drown in Sorrow isn't a horrible call.
So I went to a Legacy IQ playing BUG Control and went 4-2. I wanted more hate for Sneak and Omnitell, but I couldn't get much better cards than what I used. Came in 11th place because of tie-breaks. Don't remember how I sided I change cards on the play and on the draw, so that's a factor too.
I didn't have all the cards, like Wastelands or Creeping Tarpits, so I used what I had, then threw a sideboard together. The Trinisphere was for Omnitell and Storm, but I didn't play either deck.
R1. - American Miracles w/ Ajani Vengeant (2-1) Play
G1. Opened with a Deathrite that got swords'd. Snap swords got my Goyf. Force stops my Jace and then he resolves Ajani. I scoop after it ults.
G2. I Duress'd on T1. I took his Ajani, resolved a goyf, and locked him with Liliana and Jace.
G3. We played quickly because of time remaining. I Thoughtseize see Island, Snapcaster, Stifle, True-Name, and Sword. I take the TNN. Duress Stifle, bait swords twice, and beat him down with Goyfs and Mishra's Factory.
R2. - Sneak and Show (0-2) Play
G1. Sneak Emrakul.
G2. Sneak Griselbrand.
R3. - Elves (1-2) Play
G1. Opponent mulls to 5. After getting some control with Goyf and TNN. I Jace lock him and put a Natural Order on the bottom, but he top decks a Craterhoof. I never saw any counterspells this game
G2. Toxic Deluge his field before combo on his T3. Pernicious Deed and TNN seal the game.
G3. Keep a bad hand. Progenitus is a good card
R4. - Belcher (2-0) Draw
G1. Didn't know what he was playing at first, but keep Force, Jace, Goyf, Shaman, Forest, Trop, Fetch. Forced his Seething Song and it was GG.
G2. Mull to 5. Keep Force, Pierce, Pierce, Trop, Goyf. Get Probed. He tries it and I force his Seething Song. GG.
R5. - UR Delver (2-1) Draw Got deck checked.
G1. Goes back and forth for a while, but I win off Jace, Deathrite, and Mishra's Factory
G2. Thoughtseize see Pyromancer x 2, Probe, Blood Moon, Volcanic, Mountain. Take a pyromancer and lose to Blood Moon after using all my decays on Pyromancer and Delvers. P.S. Clique took a Jitte that I had just drawn the turn I died
G3. Game looks bad because of a Flipped Delver and a Pyromancer, but Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay swept his board and Goyf applies too much pressure. P.S. He Cliques a Goyf I draw and I windmill my Jitte off the top. Vengeance for last game
R6. - Affinity (2-0) Play
G1. Deathrite into Library helped me get setup. 2 Abrupt Decays clear his field and let me Edict, Snap Edict his two Etched Champions before Jace'ing him out of the game.
G2. Pernicious Deed his WHOLE field. GG.
I was kinda shaky with the deck at first, but once I understood the deck I felt invincible. I will definitely be playing this deck again!
I picked up Shardless Sultai after the banning of treasure cruise. The deck felt almost un playable in that format, which is unfortunate because I had already started picking up the pieces. Luckily i didnt get pissed and trade them all off, so im back on the deck.
For those of you who havn't seed Gerry Thompsons series of video on scg premium today, I suggest you do so if you are going to play this deck. I made a couple changes based strictly on watching him play. I plan on playing this list at an IQ this weekend, Ill report my findings. A lot of sideboard choice are expirmental, and will certainly be changed before this weekend. Criticism is welcome. My experience with this deck is limited, but i have certainly played against it may times, but I am by no means an expert.
After testing my 75 extensively, I agree with you. Tasigur is certainly being cut form my list completely. I am not too sure im even compelled to move him to the sb. Hes extremely weak. For now, I am just putting the 4th force of will back into the main deck and adding a pithing needle to my sb. There should have been one there all along, its too good of a catch all option.
This deck looks so awesome to play but holy cow is it expensive to build!!! Still might have to give it a go though. The card advantage is just so beautiful!
Pithing Needle is not great but it helps. For instance, naming Wasteland versus D&T, SDT against Miracles, Grindstone when you face Painter is very helpful. I actually run two in my sideboard at the moment, making the 15 look like this:
I have replaced Grafdigger's Cage with Nihil Spellbomb as it is better versus Tin Fins. Even if they side out the grave combo, you get to cantrip. Also, it is quite nice to side them in in addition to the 2nd Sylvan Library and third Baleful Strix for max digging.
I only have three 1-offs in my 75 which makes it easier to efficiently tailor my MB post board (maxing the numbers of relevant cards). 1-offs are Dig Through Time, Umezawa's Jitte and Hymn to Tourach.
DTT is good but I do not have enough cards to delve quite often, so having more than one is very risky. Also, DTT gets sideboarded out if I anticipate graveyard hate.
Hymn functions as a more explosive Thoughtseize and has won me a few games despite I always side it out after game 1. I might swap it with a third TS if I were to compete in an unknown meta, though.
Jitte is fulfilling a few roles, which makes it easier to reason why I have left it in my 75. It complements sweepers versus fair decks, increases life against Burn, settles Goyf wars.
I prefer a 3 Discard 3 FoW split as it gives more options game one. What is more, I would rather have three FoW's to have less bad cards in fair matchups but still have the chance to draw them against Combo than have four of them MB and make fair matchups difficult. Besides, I have enough cards in Sideboard to make Combo more favorable on games 2 and 3.
A question for you: how often do you side your Hymns? I tried keeping a couple but replaced them with Duresses as they were fairly worthless. Is Misdirection and Notion Thief any good?
I side in my hymns against miracles and not much else. Here lately, I feel like discard in general has been very underwhelming. Im am not 100% sure how I am structuring things going forward, but duress seems to be much better in the matchups we would also want hymn.
Its been a few weeks since I have messed with legacy. Here is my current 75 im testing on cockatrice.
Made some obvious changes. I will be playing this at a local event tomorrow night. Ill let you know how it goes.
I took your advice and retweaked the board to make room for duress. I also added arcane laboratory on the advice of Gerry Thompson. I expect to see more than one storm deck.
This is what I plan on running for my next deck. My stores are filled with Infect, Miracles using Stoneforge Mystic, versions of Storm, Esper Stoneblade, Tezz Control, and BUG Delver decks. I'm not sure how to build my deck or its sideboard, so I went with a very basic build. Any and all help will be appreciated.
So ive been taking a real beating to various Dig Through Time decks, it has me wondering how well positioned shardless is right now. It reminds me of when EVERYONE started playing treasure cruise. I'm not saying they are the same card, but the card advantage is real. In my gut I feel a ban coming.
Specific matchups that have been just awful for me are Omni tell, Ur Delver, Grixis Delver/pyro control. All dig decks. Make my abrupt decay/wasteland/thoughtsieze strategy pretty weak.
Deathrite Shaman is huge for us in these matchups, but it does not do enough to keep their GY down to prevent an early dig. Also, he inconveniently dies to lightnin bolt which is rather unfortunate for the delver matchup (also dies to forked bolt).
Took the deck to a four round tournament tonight and went 1-1-2. The last round we went to game three with ten minutes left so I had a lot of misplays. A lot. And it was against a Junk colored deck with no Stoneforge Mystic and running Lingering Souls. First time piloting the deck, and I am not entirely sure i should be running twenty two lands, but the color sensitivity is crucial so I think I'll leave it alone until I get more in tune with how the deck goes. I am coming from Burn, sweet, sweet Burn. I beat Reanimator(home brew for the most part), draw against the mirror, lost to Dredge and that Junk deck.
First change I want to make is have a second Jace and maybe move Lili to the side replacing either Thoughtseize or Hymn, or just take Lili out completely. Not sure yet, but I feel like discard is weak right now with DTT running all over the place. I also want to swap out a Needle for a Krosan Grip.
Could you guys give me sideboard suggestions? Here's what I did against my opponents:
Dredge - Out Hymn
In Nihil Spellbomb
Mirror - Out two Force, Jace, Toxic, Thoughtseize
In Decay, Charm, Library, Jitte, and Clique
Game three I switched Lili for Jace. I did this for another win con and since I'm not longer on the play, tempo was no longer in my side.
Reanimator - Out Hymn, Disfigure, one Decay, Toxic
In Spellbomb, one Needle, Arcane Laboratory, Clique
Junk - Out Lili, Hymn, two Force
In Decay, Charm, Library, Rod and Clique
Game three I dropped Clique for the second Deluge. After my opening seven, I realized Clique is really bad in a game full of Souls.
With the banning of DTT Shardless seems to be making a comeback. It placed 2 copies in the SCG St. Louis Top 8 the other weekend. Any innovations? From what I can tell, here are the major differences in decklists:
- Lists that were running 1-2 DTT found room for 1-2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and potentially another card. For me, that other card waffles between the fourth Visions, fourth Force, or third Strix
- Most lists run 2 Lilis and at least 1 JTMS. I'm still running 2 of each, but wonder what other people's opinions have been on these 2 walkers?
- Minor differences in the number of Hymns and Thoughtseizes
- Whether or not to run the Meddling Mage SB package
From what I can tell, barring major innovations those are the relevant topics. Any thoughts?
I've enjoyed the 1-of Baby Jace. He can be Cascaded into which rocks, but he's not at his strongest in Legacy. I guess time will tell if he's worth the slot over the fourth Visions or Force.
I personally don't run the Meddling Mage package. I never felt it helped our combo matchup much more than other cards, and SB slots are so hard to come by that I dislike using one on a Scrubland.
There is a dedicated Shardless BUG thread now, located in the Legacy Midrange subforum. Also, I would prefer big Jace, over human Jace, but that's personal preference.
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4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
Instants - 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
Sorceries - 8
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land - 20
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Notion Thief
1 Massacre
I'm expecting an up-tick in combo and RUG Delver. These lists often run 3 FOW main and the 4th in the side, but because of the expected up-tick in combo I've put the 4th in the main for now. I'm also leaning fairly heavily on discard. I'm including 2 Dig Through Time for now but it's possible that 1 is the right number. 0, 1, or 2 could all be right but likely no more than 2, so I'm starting at the top end and will adjust down as necessary. Board is built to cover many bases as I'm not sure how the meta will shake out. I'm also being a little greedy on 20 lands but I often build decks slightly on the greedy side when it comes to that.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Seems like our maindecks are exactly the same except that you went -1 Maelstrom Pulse -1 Land +2 Dig Through Time. How are you liking it? I'm more inclined to add 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, since a little more beef won't hurt at all, and a card that only dies to Swords to Plowshares effect on top of walling Tarmos, Batterskulls and all the usual creatures with the ability to slowly claw back at the game stapled in seems really attractive to me.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I haven't tested Tasigur at all, but I don't hate the idea. He performs a lot of the same functions as Dig Through Time but provides a body that blanks bolt, abrupt decay, etc. My one complaint about him is that he has no evasion - no flying, trample, landwalk, unblockable, etc. Young Pyromancer tokens or Lingering Souls tokens can blank him very well, but of course he's doing something else for you at the same time.
His ability is a nice mana-sink at the end of the opponent's turn, just like Dig.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Also it doesn't work quite the same as Dig Through Time, since it only digs two cards deep and gives you the worst one, but it can be activated repeatedly and shrink enemy goyfs / blank DRS. It's similar in the fact that gives you CA, but it's not the same quality or digging power as DTT.
My main concern right now is slotting in 1-2 Sultai Charm. I believe the card promises a lot, especially if you're expecting Combo (instant speed kill Griselbrand, Worldgorger Dragon, Omniscience, Painter's Servant...)
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
No, it certainly isn't identical to a DTT, and I never claimed it was. But it performs a similar FUNCTION - late-game mana sink that provides card advantage. Just remember they can give you back any non-land card in your 'yard, not just one of the two you just flipped. I'm not sure if that makes him better or worse. It gives your opponents more options, so I'm leaning toward worse.
Conceptually I'm not a fan of Sultai Charm in our list. It's yet another card that we can't cascade into and I believe each one of its modes is substantially over-costed. Here are the things it does: Ultimate Price, Naturalize, Tormenting Voice. Each is 2CMC but more importantly each is 1 colored mana and 1 colorless. Each is also only marginally playable in its Standard environment and not playable in older formats. This makes you pay 3 colors for one of these. It gets a big "meh" from me. If you swtich Tormenting Voice to Catalog it only gets marginally better, but not nearly enough.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
You are right that the card cannot be cascaded into, and you're right that it's overcosted compared to their respective versions, but you have also to factor in the opportunity cost: each of these cards individually can and will be dead at certain situations or even entire games because we're playing against a deck with no creatures, for example. Sultai Charm won't be dead in any of these cases because it has two other relevant mode, the worst one being the last. It's overcosted, but it's the price you pay for flexibility on a card. Comparing it to Maelstrom Pulse:
+ Instant speed
+ Same CMC
+ Kills opossing Tarmos while not destroying our own
- Doesn't kill Planeswalkers
- Doesn't deal with Pyromancer army
The hugest one I think is is instant speed though, because as I said, it's very relevant vs Combo.
Thanks to DNC from Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig
Check my Pauper Cube!
I think that slotting in a card like Sultai Charm for these reasons is a losing proposition. Here's a quick discussion of the card against the specific threats you mention.
Sultai Charm against Griselbrand. No matter how you cut it, if you're killing a resolved Griselbrand then the opponent is drawing 7 cards (barring corner-case scenarios or issues where they're at 7 or lower). So in this scenario here's how Sultai Charm effectively reads: "GBU, Instant, Destroy target creature an opponent controls. That creature's controller loses 7 life and draws 7 cards." I certainly wouldn't pay 3 mana for that. You traded a card for their on-board beater and gave them 7 cards to get ahead with. Quite often one of those 7, which were drawn while Sultai Charm was on the stack, can and will counter the Sultai Charm.
Sultai Charm against Worldgorger Dragon. Of course, we have yet to see whether he makes a re-appearance in Reanimator or any other decks, but conceptually killing him is troublesome. Yes, there's a window where you can mess with their triggers with an instant speed kill spell and permanently exile all their permanents, but hopefully a good player knows how to play the card around that. That means you're down a card while they're looping their combo together. Remember we're a counterspell-light deck so we don't have the tools to fight a counter-battle.
Sultai Charm against Painter's Servant. I'm not too keen on playing a blue kill spell against the Red Elemental Blast deck. For that matter, there are still MD Pyroblasts and REBs floating around from this past Treasure Cruise meta, so Sultai Charm is already at risk. But especially against this deck, which almost always chooses "blue" anyway, you know they'll have an answer to it. You're not down cards if they counter with the REB or Pyro, but you're down tempo (your 3CMC for their 1CMC) and you haven't affected their combo.
Against all of these decks pointing a Sultai Charm at the on-board combo piece is an attempt to clutch on to the slimmest possibility you won't get killed. The better strategy, it seems to me, is to prevent them from getting that piece on the board to begin with. That's why I have 3 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseizes, and 2 Lilis as well as going up to the full 4 Force of Wills while having extra counter magic in the board. If Sultai Charm were uncounterable or if it had Split Second then I think it would be an OK include. But lacking either of those elements I think you can include a more impactful and efficient card in its stead.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers - 5
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorceries - 2
2 Thoughtseize
Instants - 14
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Force of Will
Enchantments - 3
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Duress
2 Stifle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Force of Will
1 Submerge
1 Ashen Rider
I didn't have all the cards, like Wastelands or Creeping Tarpits, so I used what I had, then threw a sideboard together. The Trinisphere was for Omnitell and Storm, but I didn't play either deck.
R1. - American Miracles w/ Ajani Vengeant (2-1) Play
G1. Opened with a Deathrite that got swords'd. Snap swords got my Goyf. Force stops my Jace and then he resolves Ajani. I scoop after it ults.
G2. I Duress'd on T1. I took his Ajani, resolved a goyf, and locked him with Liliana and Jace.
G3. We played quickly because of time remaining. I Thoughtseize see Island, Snapcaster, Stifle, True-Name, and Sword. I take the TNN. Duress Stifle, bait swords twice, and beat him down with Goyfs and Mishra's Factory.
R2. - Sneak and Show (0-2) Play
G1. Sneak Emrakul.
G2. Sneak Griselbrand.
R3. - Elves (1-2) Play
G1. Opponent mulls to 5. After getting some control with Goyf and TNN. I Jace lock him and put a Natural Order on the bottom, but he top decks a Craterhoof. I never saw any counterspells this game
G2. Toxic Deluge his field before combo on his T3. Pernicious Deed and TNN seal the game.
G3. Keep a bad hand. Progenitus is a good card
R4. - Belcher (2-0) Draw
G1. Didn't know what he was playing at first, but keep Force, Jace, Goyf, Shaman, Forest, Trop, Fetch. Forced his Seething Song and it was GG.
G2. Mull to 5. Keep Force, Pierce, Pierce, Trop, Goyf. Get Probed. He tries it and I force his Seething Song. GG.
R5. - UR Delver (2-1) Draw Got deck checked.
G1. Goes back and forth for a while, but I win off Jace, Deathrite, and Mishra's Factory
G2. Thoughtseize see Pyromancer x 2, Probe, Blood Moon, Volcanic, Mountain. Take a pyromancer and lose to Blood Moon after using all my decays on Pyromancer and Delvers. P.S. Clique took a Jitte that I had just drawn the turn I died
G3. Game looks bad because of a Flipped Delver and a Pyromancer, but Golgari Charm and Abrupt Decay swept his board and Goyf applies too much pressure. P.S. He Cliques a Goyf I draw and I windmill my Jitte off the top. Vengeance for last game
R6. - Affinity (2-0) Play
G1. Deathrite into Library helped me get setup. 2 Abrupt Decays clear his field and let me Edict, Snap Edict his two Etched Champions before Jace'ing him out of the game.
G2. Pernicious Deed his WHOLE field. GG.
I was kinda shaky with the deck at first, but once I understood the deck I felt invincible. I will definitely be playing this deck again!
4 Shardless AGent
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tasigur, The golden Fang
2 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers: 4
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Other Spells: 18
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancentral Visions
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 swamp
1 island
3 underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Massacre
2 Disfigure
1 Misdirection
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Golgari Charm
For those of you who havn't seed Gerry Thompsons series of video on scg premium today, I suggest you do so if you are going to play this deck. I made a couple changes based strictly on watching him play. I plan on playing this list at an IQ this weekend, Ill report my findings. A lot of sideboard choice are expirmental, and will certainly be changed before this weekend. Criticism is welcome. My experience with this deck is limited, but i have certainly played against it may times, but I am by no means an expert.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
After testing my 75 extensively, I agree with you. Tasigur is certainly being cut form my list completely. I am not too sure im even compelled to move him to the sb. Hes extremely weak. For now, I am just putting the 4th force of will back into the main deck and adding a pithing needle to my sb. There should have been one there all along, its too good of a catch all option.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
I side in my hymns against miracles and not much else. Here lately, I feel like discard in general has been very underwhelming. Im am not 100% sure how I am structuring things going forward, but duress seems to be much better in the matchups we would also want hymn.
Its been a few weeks since I have messed with legacy. Here is my current 75 im testing on cockatrice.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Stix
Walkers: 4
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Instant/Sorc: 20
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Dig Through Time
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar-Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force of Will
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
2 Massacre
Made some obvious changes. I will be playing this at a local event tomorrow night. Ill let you know how it goes.
I took your advice and retweaked the board to make room for duress. I also added arcane laboratory on the advice of Gerry Thompson. I expect to see more than one storm deck.
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Force of Will
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
This is what I plan on running for my next deck. My stores are filled with Infect, Miracles using Stoneforge Mystic, versions of Storm, Esper Stoneblade, Tezz Control, and BUG Delver decks. I'm not sure how to build my deck or its sideboard, so I went with a very basic build. Any and all help will be appreciated.
Specific matchups that have been just awful for me are Omni tell, Ur Delver, Grixis Delver/pyro control. All dig decks. Make my abrupt decay/wasteland/thoughtsieze strategy pretty weak.
Deathrite Shaman is huge for us in these matchups, but it does not do enough to keep their GY down to prevent an early dig. Also, he inconveniently dies to lightnin bolt which is rather unfortunate for the delver matchup (also dies to forked bolt).
Where is everyone at on these matchups?
BUGShardless SultaiBUG
Modern
URSplinter TwinUR
BWGAbzan MidrangeBWG
Standard
URWJeskai TokensURW
My list:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
2 Wasteland
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Vendilion Clique
First change I want to make is have a second Jace and maybe move Lili to the side replacing either Thoughtseize or Hymn, or just take Lili out completely. Not sure yet, but I feel like discard is weak right now with DTT running all over the place. I also want to swap out a Needle for a Krosan Grip.
Could you guys give me sideboard suggestions? Here's what I did against my opponents:
Dredge - Out Hymn
In Nihil Spellbomb
Mirror - Out two Force, Jace, Toxic, Thoughtseize
In Decay, Charm, Library, Jitte, and Clique
Game three I switched Lili for Jace. I did this for another win con and since I'm not longer on the play, tempo was no longer in my side.
Reanimator - Out Hymn, Disfigure, one Decay, Toxic
In Spellbomb, one Needle, Arcane Laboratory, Clique
Junk - Out Lili, Hymn, two Force
In Decay, Charm, Library, Rod and Clique
Game three I dropped Clique for the second Deluge. After my opening seven, I realized Clique is really bad in a game full of Souls.
- Lists that were running 1-2 DTT found room for 1-2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and potentially another card. For me, that other card waffles between the fourth Visions, fourth Force, or third Strix
- Most lists run 2 Lilis and at least 1 JTMS. I'm still running 2 of each, but wonder what other people's opinions have been on these 2 walkers?
- Minor differences in the number of Hymns and Thoughtseizes
- Whether or not to run the Meddling Mage SB package
From what I can tell, barring major innovations those are the relevant topics. Any thoughts?
I've enjoyed the 1-of Baby Jace. He can be Cascaded into which rocks, but he's not at his strongest in Legacy. I guess time will tell if he's worth the slot over the fourth Visions or Force.
I personally don't run the Meddling Mage package. I never felt it helped our combo matchup much more than other cards, and SB slots are so hard to come by that I dislike using one on a Scrubland.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero