Hey everyone. I was away from magic for 15 years and unaware that Enchantress existed until about 3 days ago. I made this deck on my own - it's got a different win-con and a different flavor but I can see now that it's very closely related to Enchantress. I would like some feedback if anybody is willing. I have tested it against Zoo and it crushed Zoo twice, then against Affinity it did reasonably well. The win-con is to cast lots of enchantments to control the board and then use Ancestral Mask, Rancor, Armadillo Cloak and Ethereal Armor (new RtR common) to buff a hexproof creature into a monster and swing with it.
Hey everyone. I was away from magic for 15 years and unaware that Enchantress existed until about 3 days ago. I made this deck on my own - it's got a different win-con and a different flavor but I can see now that it's very closely related to Enchantress. I would like some feedback if anybody is willing. I have tested it against Zoo and it crushed Zoo twice, then against Affinity it did reasonably well. The win-con is to cast lots of enchantments to control the board and then use Ancestral Mask, Rancor, Armadillo Cloak and Ethereal Armor (new RtR common) to buff a hexproof creature into a monster and swing with it.
I actually used to run a deck similar to that. The problem with it is that it stands precisely zero chance against any of the non-creature decks like Storm. Those decks are typically bad matchups for Enchantress anyways, but at least classic Enchantress has a chance because of the Solitary Confinement lockdown in combination with Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo. Your version of the deck appears to have, well, precisely zero cards that would interact in that matchup at all. They'd go through you like a hot knife through butter.
So look at the primer and the decklists from the last few pages of the thread? I'm not quite sure what you're going for here...
well , ive seen some lists with less than 4 (savannah or another expensive card)
so what I really wanted to know was what a list with "no budget" would look like
well , ive seen some lists with less than 4 (savannah or another expensive card)
so what I really wanted to know was what a list with "no budget" would look like
In general, Savannah isn't really a card Enchantress wants 4 of -- one of Enchantress' big advantages is its relative immunity to Wasteland. I personally include Savannah as a 1-of so I have the possibility of WW on turn one with fetch->Savannah->ESG->Utopia Sprawl naming white, but overall you don't want too many nonbasics.
The biggest expense of the deck is easily Moat, a card which generates a fair amount of discussion in the community. In general, those of us who have it swear up and down that it's irreplaceable, and those who don't rationalize why it's not actually necessary
I'm interested in the two decks , and want to find out what the "best" list of each is
There is no uniform consensus on that. There is a lot of variation (more so with Enchantress) due to play style/tastes, meta related factors, and genuine differences of opinion on complicated strategic issues.
But threads for both decks are devoted to making the deck as good as it can be - not as cheap as it can be. Sometimes you'll find people without Moat (or Candles in the High Tide thread) looking for tips on a budget version. Beyond that, just read the threads. Or if you have a question about the exclusion of a specific expensive card (like a third and fourth Savannah), ask it directly.
An optimized deck with a theoretically unlimited budget is understood for the established deck threads - that's what this 129 page discussion is all about.
Um. You're kind of in the wrong thread for that. You want the High Tide thread, here.
EDIT: Also, a reply to an earlier post.
I actually used to run a deck similar to that. The problem with it is that it stands precisely zero chance against any of the non-creature decks like Storm. Those decks are typically bad matchups for Enchantress anyways, but at least classic Enchantress has a chance because of the Solitary Confinement lockdown in combination with Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo. Your version of the deck appears to have, well, precisely zero cards that would interact in that matchup at all. They'd go through you like a hot knife through butter.
Thats one of the many decks that im still learning about. I assume you mean TES? Well ive been thinking about increasing the number of creatures slightly and it has occurred to me that thalia might be a better maindeck card than pacifism. Same color and mana cost and it does somewhat protect itself. Thalia plus rancor is pretty mighty on its own merits and armadillo cloak and spirit link would provide 8 cards that gain life. I might be able to race for a while. Granted that theres nothing ill be able to do about the first or second turn combo. Thalia wouldnt hurt my plan against other decks either. Thanks for the help.
Thats one of the many decks that im still learning about. I assume you mean TES? Well ive been thinking about increasing the number of creatures slightly and it has occurred to me that thalia might be a better maindeck card than pacifism. Same color and mana cost and it does somewhat protect itself. Thalia plus rancor is pretty mighty on its own merits and armadillo cloak and spirit link would provide 8 cards that gain life. I might be able to race for a while. Granted that theres nothing ill be able to do about the first or second turn combo. Thalia wouldnt hurt my plan against other decks either. Thanks for the help.
I'm actually referring to a comparatively large class of decks, one that includes Storm, all of the Show and Tell builds, Sneak Attack, Hive Mind, and Reanimator. Heck, even Dredge looks like it'd roll over you, because it's again not interacting on the creature-based plane your deck seems designed to fight -- all of those decks are going over the top, and Thalia alone probably isn't enough hate to give you a chance, since it hits you pretty hard as well. The typical Enchantress build has a small chance against these decks; I have a hard time thinking the creature-based version would have any at all.
I think that there are answers to many of these. I can play rest in piece to combat dredge. Still an enchantment and it hits lots of other common legacy tricks like grim lavamancer, snapcaster etc..... Im also intrigued by the codex shredder which seems like it might be a possible answer to tutors that place the card on top of library. Check them out if you havent seen them yet. Normally id copy it myself but im using my phone to post this. :-p
I did make the first build against a prototype of an aggro creature deck. Im not surprised at all that i missed the boat against various other types. Speaking of tutors - enlightened tutor should probably be in my own plans.
I see that codex shredder wont stop the cards i wanted to stop. Le sigh.
As an aside - i think tutor spells are the biggest thing wrong with legacy. There ought to be a better way to hose them. Too many of the matchups ive looked at so far seem to have devolved into tutoring for your win con before your opponent tutors for his.
I was recently asking myself this question :
Why isn't there more top 8/16 of our deck in the SCG or other tournaments?
I mean, it's been a while since we saw Ench perf well, isn't it ?
Any explanations?
Ive top top 16ed twice, narrowly missing top 8 both times, buts its because of certain decks in the meta. Traditionally we pretty much auto-lose to combo, which is harsh. We have at least a solid matchup against most everything else. Essentially we pray on both the fair decks and the decks that are designed to beat the unfair decks. Put enchantress in a room of canadian thresh and maverick, and barring horrid mulligans, you will pretty much walk to top 8 if you know what you are doing. Mulliganning can be a little frustrating too, we are a combo/prison deck, and as such you must aggressively mulligan. I think in both those tourneys I may have kept 2 7 card hands each. Granted we are pretty consistent, but there are times when you arent, and its usually those times that its REALLY bad.
@crimhead talking about wheel of sun and mooning yourself to keep from decking out, you should never need to worry about that. Not trying to call you out or anything, but if you're decking out a lot, or worried about doing so, you should playtest a little bit more. Because that shouldnt be happening at all. I dont ever consider that one of the uses for the card.
@stormfront believe me, if someone is playing moat in their deck, they arent just running 2 savannahs because of budget problems. I have been mocked by my friends for buying a $300 sideboard card (because the first tourney I played with my moat was plagued by the esper deck with intuition+lingering souls main, needless to say, moat was boarded out).
In general, Savannah isn't really a card Enchantress wants 4 of -- one of Enchantress' big advantages is its relative immunity to Wasteland. I personally include Savannah as a 1-of so I have the possibility of WW on turn one with fetch->Savannah->ESG->Utopia Sprawl naming white, but overall you don't want too many nonbasics.
The biggest expense of the deck is easily Moat, a card which generates a fair amount of discussion in the community. In general, those of us who have it swear up and down that it's irreplaceable, and those who don't rationalize why it's not actually necessary
I play on MTGO where Moat is 3$
Do you more than 1 Moat in the deck?
I understand it could be kinda dead if you already have one on the field unless you just want to draw , but having multiples gives me more security
I play on MTGO where Moat is 3$
Do you more than 1 Moat in the deck?
I understand it could be kinda dead if you already have one on the field unless you just want to draw , but having multiples gives me more security
1 moat is fine as its not something you really want to topdeck most times. Its basically a Toolbox card....
Although I do have one question for more experienced players: Moat or Humility?
Yes Humility hurts our enchantresses, but it weakens Delver and little miss FSM....
In general, Savannah isn't really a card Enchantress wants 4 of -- one of Enchantress' big advantages is its relative immunity to Wasteland. I personally include Savannah as a 1-of so I have the possibility of WW on turn one with fetch->Savannah->ESG->Utopia Sprawl naming white, but overall you don't want too many nonbasics.
The biggest expense of the deck is easily Moat, a card which generates a fair amount of discussion in the community. In general, those of us who have it swear up and down that it's irreplaceable, and those who don't rationalize why it's not actually necessary
If you wanna play this deck to it's fullest, you can forego all but the 1 Taiga if you're going WoW win, the Fetches in some builds, sometimes Savannahs, and sometimes the Sanctum(s). You will be relying more on great topdecks in certain builds but packing greater heat, you may have to sneak in an Abundant Growth or two to ensure stability, but the point is that the deck has excellent built in fixing, and Serra's Sanctum gets insane if you can stick your one mana fixing enchantments. The decks only real mana issue is this: "WW". That's it, that's the only thorn that's gonna be in your side, mana wise, for most of your games.
Moat is "the" card, the one that really makes that jump of commitment to the deck. It's a one-of, and is (IMO), "too powerful" for my cube, so when sitting there with a mild windfall, other things to buy, a looming legacy tourney, and the decision of whether or not to buy that Moat, I ultimately chose not to.
Could have probably placed top 8, or even won that entire tourney off the back of this ONE card due to my matchups and the nature of the deck's tutors. The meta was Reanimator, D and T, Maverick, RUG delver, Goblins, White Weenies, Bant, Pox, Aggro Elf (as in combo into Joraga Warcaller and swing, not Emrakul). There was also one SnT player in the tourney, but these two factors would have changed everything: one, he got bad matchups in the first few rounds and lost, and two, I drew out matches and lost games that I would have won handily with that single Moat. I even had a SB that "beat" him easily, only I had terrible luck drawing into my answers, not to mention I misplayed G2, I would be remiss to ignore that falter. Point is, I would have dodged him by crushing aggro and pox all day if I was just running that Moat. But as an Enchantress player will say, "Que Serra, Serra."
You need the fricken Moat. Moat is one of those fantastic cards that embodies exactly what it says on the piece of cardboard, no matter how ridiculously expensive it is. "I'm in a Moat, bang on the gates in vain all you want you grounded dudes, you'll never get me." You're playing a Solitaire deck, you even have stuff like City of Solitude. Humility is a silver bullet for certain matchups, and I would certainly run 1 or 2 of them SB or possibly MB depending on meta. But people have to understand that it does something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what Moat does, the two different functions hardly ever overlap, and one does not substitute for the other.
Anyway, I haven't played this deck in about 3 months or so, but I would like to post what I feel is my "ideal" list for a "non-typical", or "general ideas" list. (Look at a list posted by the quoted poster Coandco or a similar authority for the "go-to", standard list.)
So, discounting for the sake of "this is a long ass post so I can finish my thoughts on this legacy deck," and taking into account that my only experience with the more standard list was on cockatrice, there are a few more points I have to make:
1. Words of War/ Taiga are in the sideboard section because it's a decision you have to make about how you wanna win. This is, of course, the obvious non-bo of it being an activated ability, the only reason why I wouldn't run it in my list.
Suppression Field heavy Enchantress = you are very proactive , and DO NOT discount how ridiculously heavy this card hoses what it's supposed to. We'll start at Mangara/Karakas, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Pernicious Deed now costs 2-6 more to activate, and Jace / Elspeth / Liliana of the Veil and end at "Your Jitte, SFM, Top, and Aether Vial are now actually dead cards. Also, you can't fetch or wasteland anymore without giving me a Time Walk." And like an iceberg, this is only the 5 or 10 percent of what's sitting there on the obvious surface. It's absolutely insane.
The downside is that it forces you to invest in more White fixing, Savannahs, Horizon Canopies, Sanctums. I absolutely hate that one Plains I stuck in my list too, it always showed up at the exact wrong times. There may be something to be said about running G/W fetches and cracking them before/in response to your Suppression Fields, similar to Sterling Grove. On the flipside, it hoses the formats number one punishers of nonbasics, Rishadan Port and Wasteland.
2. I've never tried Sigarda, but if you're running a GSZ in your MD as a 9th enchantress it doesn't seem bad.
3. Elvish Spirit Guide is another meta call. It was my choice to use it in a fetch heavy meta to try to power out T1 Suppression Fields. Same goes with Enchantress' (insane in a hand with say, ESG, Forest, Argothian, some sprawls or growths. You can already begin cantripping off your accelerants on the next turn, or perhaps force a T1 force of will, etc.) Can't say if this is 'optimal' or not.
4. If you want specific, "why / when would I use X sb cards," feel free to ask. A lot of them are just ideas being thrown out, it's up to you to make the pieces come together. If X goes in, Y must come out, I have to tinker the levels of Z, and so on.
Final thoughts: This archetype is a deckbuilders dream. It will test your ability to read the meta, adjust, and believe in the heart of topdecking like none other. Never be afraid to take it in a completely different direction. For instance, the "Aura Stompy" take on Enchantress intrigues me, with synergy between Kor Spiritdancer, mana fixing Auras, and Suppression Fields.
Happy brewing and best of luck to you all. I'm taking a break from not only this format, but all non casual magic in general for a very long time. Hope someone can make something out of all this madness.
-A definitely not pro player who went all in on Enchantress for about 6 months and had a blast.
I'll comment that Windswept Heath fixes our WW woes, but doesn't play well with Suppression Field. I run the former, so I'm disinclined to run the latter.
Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I'd like to make something out of my short lived legacy experience, 'cause I learned so much in so little time...
I will definitely say that one of the first decisions when you brew with this deck comes down to the choice between hosing Activated Abilities and making WW the easiest.
When Suppression Field gets running and its relevant, it's easily the hardest lock I've ever achieved with this deck ever. It's night and day between Jace being able to even brainstorm or not, or Lili being able to force discard without a serious resource commitment. We're talking about 40-75 PERCENT of people's decks and manabases here sometimes, people. Go look at a B/W stoneblade list and simply weep for those poor, poor guys. 2 mana is huge, and when you have multiple out, it's truly something you have to behold yourself to really understand, just how insanely annoying and devastating it is.
It smooths over so many matchups. You can literally write an encyclopedia filled with the cards that it hoses. Also it makes the deck a couple hundred dollars cheaper, not bad at all.
Otoh, WW is really that important, important enough that it makes forgoing MD fields and spending the extra money a serious decision point. When you need to get a Moat, Humility, or Runed Halo out, you need that double white. It is the number one weakness of that variant, besides triggered abilities and state based effects, but I'm convinced that the numbers can be tweaked in the manabase and colorfixing enchantments to get it right.
Another version of Utopia Sprawl, and we'd be absolutely fine, mind you. Trace of Abundance didn't really work, Abundant Growth was too awkward. Another Sprawl would simply go in place of Wild Growth, then all you need to watch out for is Sinkhole, Armageddon, and Acid Rain xD.
If someone can find good way to get the perfect manabase, and maybe find a secondary win condition that isn't WoW, one that maybe isn't aggro, and interacts well with Humility+field, I'm convinced that the Suppression Field list is stronger. Hell, you might be able to get there in some metas by stealing G1 and then simply running 1 Divine Intervention in your SB for G2.
Anyway, while I'm out of legacy game for a while (and the house, got stuff to do :P), I'd love to keep posting about it to see how far someone can take it. I might even pop on Cockatrice every now and then to see if I can get all the pieces to fit. I just felt like I'd lay all the ones I was aware of out on the table, since so many new folks seemed interested in the deck.
And, Kudos to Illinest for finally motivating me to post these deck ideas from an old notebook by giving me such a nice framework. Here is my take on "Aura Stompy Enchantress."
LANDS (I made them a total mess, it needs a real mana base once the creatures and auras are settled out) 4x Forest 2x Savannah 4x Plains 2x Serra's Sanctum
And here's my thoughts on the previously posted Aura-Stompy list. I loved the original idea, I thought I would add the ideas I got from theory-crafting my own list a while ago.
Bold cards are new. Italicized cards need to have their numbers tweaked after playtesting and fine-tuning. For this reason, and the reason that the deck is fledgling, numbers are basically irrelevant. They need to be tweaked and tested.
1. Maybe don't run fetches, you hardly need double white. Perhaps just play to hose other people's activated abilities and fetches, but maybe save the Suppression Fields for SB cause it's got a Non-bo here if you choose to run.. *drum roll*
2. Whip silk, a cheap enchantment to cantrip with, block delver, and with the ability bounce/recast mid game to draw a bunch of gas, it's included with a white counterpart.. Flickering Ward, an aura version of Mother that essentially that gives you evasion and can be bounced for a TON of card draw, and so on.
3. Maybe Kor Spirit Dancer, draw a ton of cards in a turn, secondary Argothian that can get big fast, exploit Serra's Sanctum, You're gonna wanna GSZ for either Argothian or Gladecover, it's your toolbox. So you may need less of these, or less Moms, or no Moms. And you probably dont need as many total auras as you have right now, just a good mass of the right ones so that you can suit up your Voltron and kill them. For this reason, and others...
4. Enchanted Evening is the card that I learned very on , despite my eternal love for it, won't fly in this format. Even as a one of, I wanted it just to make Serra's Sanctum insane, and it's even better here because of the pump, but it's unnecessary. Remember, you only need to get in for 20 trample or evasive damage, not 60 bajillion. Keeping modest here, I was able to see the pieces coming together for lethal/a lethal clock as early as turn 3-4.
5. You also probably don't need 4 O-ring mainboard IMO. Maybe try to sneak in a Mirri's Guile or two.
This deck seems like it could definitely work. You have a full sideboard to deal with unfair decks, and it seems feasible to "Go off" very quickly, bouncing a flickering ward or whipsilk, for instance, make a decent amount of mana off a Serra's Sanctum or ramped out Forest with sprawls, draw the pieces, assemble lethal Voltron. Seems like you could definitely play the "fair game" against Maverick or RUG, and just match their threats with your lifelink, protections, out draw them and then overwhelm them, and versus unfair decks you have a whole sideboard to screw with them while at your leisure you draw tons and assemble a Voltron.
This is a very rough sketch, but it definitely seems very workable to me.
Haha, I'm far too bored and interested to leave this one unfinished now. And Coandco, "what it was worth," was me randomly finding another page in my old notebook I had forgotten about when I was reading your list. Then I just went off. I did the famous "5 minute half-baked" theory crafting with a few different hands and it's looking like, barring removal or COTV at 1, you can pretty consistently get a 1 or 2 turn clock by turn 2-3.
This is a hand with the best creature, but no sanctum to even it out.
On the play,
Turn 1 land, Sprawl
Turn 2 land, Spiritdancer, Rancor, draw
Turn 3 Flickering Ward, draw, land (hopefully) , Ancestral Mask , 18 power on board and 4 cards in hand. A Serra's Sanctum means more cards, an enlightened tutor in response to draw trigger probably gets you lethal, ESG + a whip silk or rancor is lethal, Flickering ward being another Rancor or Ethereal Armor is lethal, and so on.
So the big 5 general areas of questions for me are:
1. Elvish Spirit Guide: yes/no? Argothian Enchantress: yes/no? Add Living Wish and a Wish board of Sanctum/Karakas/Spiritdancer maybe, to free up a ton of spots?
2. How many Armadillo Cloaks, Whip Silks, and Trace of Abundance to run?
3. Maindecking O-rings, Sterling Groves, and/or Suppression Fields? How many of each?
4. What combination of Instants/Sorceries? I'd want at least 1 Replenish MD for heavy counters/pox/Chalice of the Void at 1, 2-3 GSZ, and 0-2 Enlightened Tutor.
5. How many total lands? How many Forests, Savannah, and how many Serra's Sanctums (2 or 3?) Squeeze in a Karakas? Plains or no? Crop Rotation?
I don't think Daybreak Coronet is needed. The keywords aren't particularly useful, Trample and protections get the job done as is. Armadillo cloak and Trace of Abundance already cause enough slack as is IMO, and 2 CMC is a lot more expensive that just 1 on many of the smaller auras. The deck needs to be super tight.
If you can work out these 5 kinks, I think the deck is solid. The sb hasn't even been touched yet, but that seems to be all meta, never the same. Unless you run Living Wish.
So build this thing and grind it out on cockatrice or IRL!! rargrahrarhrh. And let me know how it goes. I'm as is only about 40 bucks short of building this list anyway, minus savannah and keeping Living Wish and Karakas off the table.
I will certainly load it up in Cockatrice and use it for awhile.
I tell you - I used to play R/W back in the day but lately I've been thinking that I have a new favored color combo. I'm going to try to make a Standard G/W as well but I'm thinking of something much stompier for that.
(and I built it and it's 67 cards...)
I played this version against Zoo a few times. I like Kor Spiritdancer. I don't like the missing Spirit Links. I was hurt by Serra's Sanctum as often as it helped. Suppression Field was almost a dead draw against Zoo but it did help against Lavamancer and qasali pridemage. I can see how it would help against other decks. Flickering Ward is an excellent suggestion, reducing the number of armadillo cloaks and ancestral masks was a help.
Sorry to burst your bubble but auras won't work out well if you don't have enough hexproof guys. They're basically dead in your hand unless you are willing to get two for one.
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There are 4 hexproofs and Kor Spiritdancer sidesteps the 2 for 1 problem by giving you a free card every time. Worst case with Kor Spiritdancer is breaking even.
Plus there's GSZ and Flickering Ward....
Sorry to burst your bubble but auras won't work out well if you don't have enough hexproof guys. They're basically dead in your hand unless you are willing to get two for one.
Yea that's why there's GSZ for hexproof one drop and Flickering Ward. Also, you draw a ton of cards for casting enchantments, and you have a Replenish or two for blowouts. You just need to eventually stick 1 guy and suit it up with enough aura to get in 20 damage, and mathematically it's not that hard. If you're playing against a deck with removal like this, it's probably a fair deck, and you'll just change your strategy accordingly, go slower and more methodical and take advantage of the draw engine, because you have less to worry about.
If they have edicts and stuff, you will run 4 leylines SB.
If they are a more combo oriented deck, then your only hope is to race, and you can easily do that.
Maybe just 2 sanctum's and just don't bank on them. Just like regular enchantress , if you get one it's the nuts, otherwise, NP.
4x Gladecover Scout
4x Mother of Runes
3x Argothian Enchantress
ENCHANTMENTS
3x Ancestral Mask
4x Ethereal Armor
3x Armadillo Cloak
1x Enchanted Evening
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Pacifism
4x Rancor
4x Spirit Link
3x Sterling Grove
4x Forest
4x Savannah
4x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
SORCERY
3x Green Sun's Zenith
If you had (lets say unlimited budget ) what would green-white enchantess look like?
Experienced players with this deck please
Um. You're kind of in the wrong thread for that. You want the High Tide thread, here.
EDIT: Also, a reply to an earlier post.
I actually used to run a deck similar to that. The problem with it is that it stands precisely zero chance against any of the non-creature decks like Storm. Those decks are typically bad matchups for Enchantress anyways, but at least classic Enchantress has a chance because of the Solitary Confinement lockdown in combination with Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo. Your version of the deck appears to have, well, precisely zero cards that would interact in that matchup at all. They'd go through you like a hot knife through butter.
copy-paste fail
im interested in the two decks , and want to find out what the "best" list of each is
So look at the primer and the decklists from the last few pages of the thread? I'm not quite sure what you're going for here...
well , ive seen some lists with less than 4 (savannah or another expensive card)
so what I really wanted to know was what a list with "no budget" would look like
In general, Savannah isn't really a card Enchantress wants 4 of -- one of Enchantress' big advantages is its relative immunity to Wasteland. I personally include Savannah as a 1-of so I have the possibility of WW on turn one with fetch->Savannah->ESG->Utopia Sprawl naming white, but overall you don't want too many nonbasics.
The biggest expense of the deck is easily Moat, a card which generates a fair amount of discussion in the community. In general, those of us who have it swear up and down that it's irreplaceable, and those who don't rationalize why it's not actually necessary
There is no uniform consensus on that. There is a lot of variation (more so with Enchantress) due to play style/tastes, meta related factors, and genuine differences of opinion on complicated strategic issues.
But threads for both decks are devoted to making the deck as good as it can be - not as cheap as it can be. Sometimes you'll find people without Moat (or Candles in the High Tide thread) looking for tips on a budget version. Beyond that, just read the threads. Or if you have a question about the exclusion of a specific expensive card (like a third and fourth Savannah), ask it directly.
An optimized deck with a theoretically unlimited budget is understood for the established deck threads - that's what this 129 page discussion is all about.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Thats one of the many decks that im still learning about. I assume you mean TES? Well ive been thinking about increasing the number of creatures slightly and it has occurred to me that thalia might be a better maindeck card than pacifism. Same color and mana cost and it does somewhat protect itself. Thalia plus rancor is pretty mighty on its own merits and armadillo cloak and spirit link would provide 8 cards that gain life. I might be able to race for a while. Granted that theres nothing ill be able to do about the first or second turn combo. Thalia wouldnt hurt my plan against other decks either. Thanks for the help.
Not really, no, although it comes closer than most. Costing 5 mana is pretty harsh.
I'm actually referring to a comparatively large class of decks, one that includes Storm, all of the Show and Tell builds, Sneak Attack, Hive Mind, and Reanimator. Heck, even Dredge looks like it'd roll over you, because it's again not interacting on the creature-based plane your deck seems designed to fight -- all of those decks are going over the top, and Thalia alone probably isn't enough hate to give you a chance, since it hits you pretty hard as well. The typical Enchantress build has a small chance against these decks; I have a hard time thinking the creature-based version would have any at all.
I did make the first build against a prototype of an aggro creature deck. Im not surprised at all that i missed the boat against various other types. Speaking of tutors - enlightened tutor should probably be in my own plans.
I see that codex shredder wont stop the cards i wanted to stop. Le sigh.
As an aside - i think tutor spells are the biggest thing wrong with legacy. There ought to be a better way to hose them. Too many of the matchups ive looked at so far seem to have devolved into tutoring for your win con before your opponent tutors for his.
Ive top top 16ed twice, narrowly missing top 8 both times, buts its because of certain decks in the meta. Traditionally we pretty much auto-lose to combo, which is harsh. We have at least a solid matchup against most everything else. Essentially we pray on both the fair decks and the decks that are designed to beat the unfair decks. Put enchantress in a room of canadian thresh and maverick, and barring horrid mulligans, you will pretty much walk to top 8 if you know what you are doing. Mulliganning can be a little frustrating too, we are a combo/prison deck, and as such you must aggressively mulligan. I think in both those tourneys I may have kept 2 7 card hands each. Granted we are pretty consistent, but there are times when you arent, and its usually those times that its REALLY bad.
@crimhead talking about wheel of sun and mooning yourself to keep from decking out, you should never need to worry about that. Not trying to call you out or anything, but if you're decking out a lot, or worried about doing so, you should playtest a little bit more. Because that shouldnt be happening at all. I dont ever consider that one of the uses for the card.
@stormfront believe me, if someone is playing moat in their deck, they arent just running 2 savannahs because of budget problems. I have been mocked by my friends for buying a $300 sideboard card (because the first tourney I played with my moat was plagued by the esper deck with intuition+lingering souls main, needless to say, moat was boarded out).
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On the topic of Moat:
I play on MTGO where Moat is 3$
Do you more than 1 Moat in the deck?
I understand it could be kinda dead if you already have one on the field unless you just want to draw , but having multiples gives me more security
1 moat is fine as its not something you really want to topdeck most times. Its basically a Toolbox card....
Although I do have one question for more experienced players: Moat or Humility?
Yes Humility hurts our enchantresses, but it weakens Delver and little miss FSM....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIf you wanna play this deck to it's fullest, you can forego all but the 1 Taiga if you're going WoW win, the Fetches in some builds, sometimes Savannahs, and sometimes the Sanctum(s). You will be relying more on great topdecks in certain builds but packing greater heat, you may have to sneak in an Abundant Growth or two to ensure stability, but the point is that the deck has excellent built in fixing, and Serra's Sanctum gets insane if you can stick your one mana fixing enchantments. The decks only real mana issue is this: "WW". That's it, that's the only thorn that's gonna be in your side, mana wise, for most of your games.
Moat is "the" card, the one that really makes that jump of commitment to the deck. It's a one-of, and is (IMO), "too powerful" for my cube, so when sitting there with a mild windfall, other things to buy, a looming legacy tourney, and the decision of whether or not to buy that Moat, I ultimately chose not to.
Could have probably placed top 8, or even won that entire tourney off the back of this ONE card due to my matchups and the nature of the deck's tutors. The meta was Reanimator, D and T, Maverick, RUG delver, Goblins, White Weenies, Bant, Pox, Aggro Elf (as in combo into Joraga Warcaller and swing, not Emrakul). There was also one SnT player in the tourney, but these two factors would have changed everything: one, he got bad matchups in the first few rounds and lost, and two, I drew out matches and lost games that I would have won handily with that single Moat. I even had a SB that "beat" him easily, only I had terrible luck drawing into my answers, not to mention I misplayed G2, I would be remiss to ignore that falter. Point is, I would have dodged him by crushing aggro and pox all day if I was just running that Moat. But as an Enchantress player will say, "Que Serra, Serra."
You need the fricken Moat. Moat is one of those fantastic cards that embodies exactly what it says on the piece of cardboard, no matter how ridiculously expensive it is. "I'm in a Moat, bang on the gates in vain all you want you grounded dudes, you'll never get me." You're playing a Solitaire deck, you even have stuff like City of Solitude. Humility is a silver bullet for certain matchups, and I would certainly run 1 or 2 of them SB or possibly MB depending on meta. But people have to understand that it does something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what Moat does, the two different functions hardly ever overlap, and one does not substitute for the other.
Anyway, I haven't played this deck in about 3 months or so, but I would like to post what I feel is my "ideal" list for a "non-typical", or "general ideas" list. (Look at a list posted by the quoted poster Coandco or a similar authority for the "go-to", standard list.)
4x Argothian Enchantress
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
Enchantments:
3x Suppression Field
1x Moat
1x Oblivion Ring
4x Wild Growth
1x Mirri's Guile
3x Solitary Confinement
4x Elephant Grass
4x Sterling Grove
4x Enchantress's Presence
4x Utopia Sprawl
1x Sigil of the Empty Throne
Instants and Sorceries:
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Replenish
2x Enlightened Tutor
Lands, which were tinkered with heavily and ultimately left unfinished so take this list with a grain of salt:
2x Savannah
1x Karakas
12x Forest
1x Plains
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Serra's Sanctum
1x Ground Seal
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Rule of Law
1x Nevermore
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Aura of Silence
1x Suppression Field
1x Cursed Totem
1x Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Humility
1x Raking Canopy
1x Words of War
1x Taiga
1x Tropical Island
1x Crop Rotation
1x Into the Eye of Chaos
1x Sacred Ground
1x Runed Halo
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Story Circle
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Replenish
1x Karmic Justice
1x Divine Intervention
So, discounting for the sake of "this is a long ass post so I can finish my thoughts on this legacy deck," and taking into account that my only experience with the more standard list was on cockatrice, there are a few more points I have to make:
1. Words of War/ Taiga are in the sideboard section because it's a decision you have to make about how you wanna win. This is, of course, the obvious non-bo of it being an activated ability, the only reason why I wouldn't run it in my list.
Suppression Field heavy Enchantress = you are very proactive , and DO NOT discount how ridiculously heavy this card hoses what it's supposed to. We'll start at Mangara/Karakas, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Pernicious Deed now costs 2-6 more to activate, and Jace / Elspeth / Liliana of the Veil and end at "Your Jitte, SFM, Top, and Aether Vial are now actually dead cards. Also, you can't fetch or wasteland anymore without giving me a Time Walk." And like an iceberg, this is only the 5 or 10 percent of what's sitting there on the obvious surface. It's absolutely insane.
The downside is that it forces you to invest in more White fixing, Savannahs, Horizon Canopies, Sanctums. I absolutely hate that one Plains I stuck in my list too, it always showed up at the exact wrong times. There may be something to be said about running G/W fetches and cracking them before/in response to your Suppression Fields, similar to Sterling Grove. On the flipside, it hoses the formats number one punishers of nonbasics, Rishadan Port and Wasteland.
2. I've never tried Sigarda, but if you're running a GSZ in your MD as a 9th enchantress it doesn't seem bad.
3. Elvish Spirit Guide is another meta call. It was my choice to use it in a fetch heavy meta to try to power out T1 Suppression Fields. Same goes with Enchantress' (insane in a hand with say, ESG, Forest, Argothian, some sprawls or growths. You can already begin cantripping off your accelerants on the next turn, or perhaps force a T1 force of will, etc.) Can't say if this is 'optimal' or not.
4. If you want specific, "why / when would I use X sb cards," feel free to ask. A lot of them are just ideas being thrown out, it's up to you to make the pieces come together. If X goes in, Y must come out, I have to tinker the levels of Z, and so on.
Final thoughts: This archetype is a deckbuilders dream. It will test your ability to read the meta, adjust, and believe in the heart of topdecking like none other. Never be afraid to take it in a completely different direction. For instance, the "Aura Stompy" take on Enchantress intrigues me, with synergy between Kor Spiritdancer, mana fixing Auras, and Suppression Fields.
Happy brewing and best of luck to you all. I'm taking a break from not only this format, but all non casual magic in general for a very long time. Hope someone can make something out of all this madness.
-A definitely not pro player who went all in on Enchantress for about 6 months and had a blast.
I'll comment that Windswept Heath fixes our WW woes, but doesn't play well with Suppression Field. I run the former, so I'm disinclined to run the latter.
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RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I will definitely say that one of the first decisions when you brew with this deck comes down to the choice between hosing Activated Abilities and making WW the easiest.
When Suppression Field gets running and its relevant, it's easily the hardest lock I've ever achieved with this deck ever. It's night and day between Jace being able to even brainstorm or not, or Lili being able to force discard without a serious resource commitment. We're talking about 40-75 PERCENT of people's decks and manabases here sometimes, people. Go look at a B/W stoneblade list and simply weep for those poor, poor guys. 2 mana is huge, and when you have multiple out, it's truly something you have to behold yourself to really understand, just how insanely annoying and devastating it is.
It smooths over so many matchups. You can literally write an encyclopedia filled with the cards that it hoses. Also it makes the deck a couple hundred dollars cheaper, not bad at all.
Otoh, WW is really that important, important enough that it makes forgoing MD fields and spending the extra money a serious decision point. When you need to get a Moat, Humility, or Runed Halo out, you need that double white. It is the number one weakness of that variant, besides triggered abilities and state based effects, but I'm convinced that the numbers can be tweaked in the manabase and colorfixing enchantments to get it right.
Another version of Utopia Sprawl, and we'd be absolutely fine, mind you. Trace of Abundance didn't really work, Abundant Growth was too awkward. Another Sprawl would simply go in place of Wild Growth, then all you need to watch out for is Sinkhole, Armageddon, and Acid Rain xD.
If someone can find good way to get the perfect manabase, and maybe find a secondary win condition that isn't WoW, one that maybe isn't aggro, and interacts well with Humility+field, I'm convinced that the Suppression Field list is stronger. Hell, you might be able to get there in some metas by stealing G1 and then simply running 1 Divine Intervention in your SB for G2.
Anyway, while I'm out of legacy game for a while (and the house, got stuff to do :P), I'd love to keep posting about it to see how far someone can take it. I might even pop on Cockatrice every now and then to see if I can get all the pieces to fit. I just felt like I'd lay all the ones I was aware of out on the table, since so many new folks seemed interested in the deck.
And, Kudos to Illinest for finally motivating me to post these deck ideas from an old notebook by giving me such a nice framework. Here is my take on "Aura Stompy Enchantress."
4x Kor Spiritdancer
4x Gladecover Scout
4x Mother of Runes
4x Argothian Enchantress
1x Elvish Spirit Guide
ENCHANTMENTS
1x Ancestral Mask
4x Ethereal Armor
3x Armadillo Cloak
4x Oblivion Ring
1x Whip Silk
1x Flickering Ward
4x Rancor
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Sterling Grove
4x Suppression Field
4x Forest
2x Savannah
4x Plains
2x Serra's Sanctum
SORCERY/INSTANT
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Replenish
And here's my thoughts on the previously posted Aura-Stompy list. I loved the original idea, I thought I would add the ideas I got from theory-crafting my own list a while ago.
Bold cards are new. Italicized cards need to have their numbers tweaked after playtesting and fine-tuning. For this reason, and the reason that the deck is fledgling, numbers are basically irrelevant. They need to be tweaked and tested.
1. Maybe don't run fetches, you hardly need double white. Perhaps just play to hose other people's activated abilities and fetches, but maybe save the Suppression Fields for SB cause it's got a Non-bo here if you choose to run.. *drum roll*
2. Whip silk, a cheap enchantment to cantrip with, block delver, and with the ability bounce/recast mid game to draw a bunch of gas, it's included with a white counterpart.. Flickering Ward, an aura version of Mother that essentially that gives you evasion and can be bounced for a TON of card draw, and so on.
3. Maybe Kor Spirit Dancer, draw a ton of cards in a turn, secondary Argothian that can get big fast, exploit Serra's Sanctum, You're gonna wanna GSZ for either Argothian or Gladecover, it's your toolbox. So you may need less of these, or less Moms, or no Moms. And you probably dont need as many total auras as you have right now, just a good mass of the right ones so that you can suit up your Voltron and kill them. For this reason, and others...
4. Enchanted Evening is the card that I learned very on , despite my eternal love for it, won't fly in this format. Even as a one of, I wanted it just to make Serra's Sanctum insane, and it's even better here because of the pump, but it's unnecessary. Remember, you only need to get in for 20 trample or evasive damage, not 60 bajillion. Keeping modest here, I was able to see the pieces coming together for lethal/a lethal clock as early as turn 3-4.
5. You also probably don't need 4 O-ring mainboard IMO. Maybe try to sneak in a Mirri's Guile or two.
This deck seems like it could definitely work. You have a full sideboard to deal with unfair decks, and it seems feasible to "Go off" very quickly, bouncing a flickering ward or whipsilk, for instance, make a decent amount of mana off a Serra's Sanctum or ramped out Forest with sprawls, draw the pieces, assemble lethal Voltron. Seems like you could definitely play the "fair game" against Maverick or RUG, and just match their threats with your lifelink, protections, out draw them and then overwhelm them, and versus unfair decks you have a whole sideboard to screw with them while at your leisure you draw tons and assemble a Voltron.
This is a very rough sketch, but it definitely seems very workable to me.
This is a hand with the best creature, but no sanctum to even it out.
On the play,
Turn 1 land, Sprawl
Turn 2 land, Spiritdancer, Rancor, draw
Turn 3 Flickering Ward, draw, land (hopefully) , Ancestral Mask , 18 power on board and 4 cards in hand. A Serra's Sanctum means more cards, an enlightened tutor in response to draw trigger probably gets you lethal, ESG + a whip silk or rancor is lethal, Flickering ward being another Rancor or Ethereal Armor is lethal, and so on.
4x Kor Spiritdancer
4x Gladecover Scout
3x Argothian Enchantress
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
ENCHANTMENTS (excluding the 3 clustered at the right, they are fluid)
4x Ancestral Mask
4x Ethereal Armor
1x Armadillo Cloak
1x Trace of Abundance
1x Whip Silk
4x Flickering Ward
4x Rancor
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Suppression Field
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Replenish
LANDS
8x Forest
2x Savannah
3x Serra's Sanctum
So the big 5 general areas of questions for me are:
1. Elvish Spirit Guide: yes/no? Argothian Enchantress: yes/no? Add Living Wish and a Wish board of Sanctum/Karakas/Spiritdancer maybe, to free up a ton of spots?
2. How many Armadillo Cloaks, Whip Silks, and Trace of Abundance to run?
3. Maindecking O-rings, Sterling Groves, and/or Suppression Fields? How many of each?
4. What combination of Instants/Sorceries? I'd want at least 1 Replenish MD for heavy counters/pox/Chalice of the Void at 1, 2-3 GSZ, and 0-2 Enlightened Tutor.
5. How many total lands? How many Forests, Savannah, and how many Serra's Sanctums (2 or 3?) Squeeze in a Karakas? Plains or no? Crop Rotation?
I don't think Daybreak Coronet is needed. The keywords aren't particularly useful, Trample and protections get the job done as is. Armadillo cloak and Trace of Abundance already cause enough slack as is IMO, and 2 CMC is a lot more expensive that just 1 on many of the smaller auras. The deck needs to be super tight.
If you can work out these 5 kinks, I think the deck is solid. The sb hasn't even been touched yet, but that seems to be all meta, never the same. Unless you run Living Wish.
So build this thing and grind it out on cockatrice or IRL!! rargrahrarhrh. And let me know how it goes. I'm as is only about 40 bucks short of building this list anyway, minus savannah and keeping Living Wish and Karakas off the table.
I tell you - I used to play R/W back in the day but lately I've been thinking that I have a new favored color combo. I'm going to try to make a Standard G/W as well but I'm thinking of something much stompier for that.
(and I built it and it's 67 cards...)
I played this version against Zoo a few times. I like Kor Spiritdancer. I don't like the missing Spirit Links. I was hurt by Serra's Sanctum as often as it helped. Suppression Field was almost a dead draw against Zoo but it did help against Lavamancer and qasali pridemage. I can see how it would help against other decks. Flickering Ward is an excellent suggestion, reducing the number of armadillo cloaks and ancestral masks was a help.
Plus there's GSZ and Flickering Ward....
Yea that's why there's GSZ for hexproof one drop and Flickering Ward. Also, you draw a ton of cards for casting enchantments, and you have a Replenish or two for blowouts. You just need to eventually stick 1 guy and suit it up with enough aura to get in 20 damage, and mathematically it's not that hard. If you're playing against a deck with removal like this, it's probably a fair deck, and you'll just change your strategy accordingly, go slower and more methodical and take advantage of the draw engine, because you have less to worry about.
If they have edicts and stuff, you will run 4 leylines SB.
If they are a more combo oriented deck, then your only hope is to race, and you can easily do that.
Maybe just 2 sanctum's and just don't bank on them. Just like regular enchantress , if you get one it's the nuts, otherwise, NP.