Flayer of the Hatebound is mostly run for the reasons you suggest, but there are some issues with that line of reasoning. When you run Flayer, or any Dread Return target, you give up some level of consistency and (in the worst case) pre-reanimation speed. So the question isn't just "Does this help fight more cards?", but also "Is this better than the alternative?" For example, maybe the optimal deck bites it super hard to Moat but can cruise through everything else.
Another point to consider is that you might be able to re-configure your Dread Return targets overall to deal with the problem cards in a more efficient way. Like, maybe you really want Child of Alara instead, since it deals with all those and even more. It's not as convincingly a slam-dunk in some situations, but to run Flayer, Child would have to be worse overall - not just in some particular matchup or against some particular card.
I personally do not like Flayer of the Hatebound. I feel like he's as fast as FKZ at best, usually slower, more vulnerable to spot removal, and his ability is rarely worth it. In a mana build, where you're putting your whole deck upside down by turn 2, that's not an issue, but in Manaless Dredge the extra speed matters a lot more. Answering Moat is not an issue on T2-T3, for example.
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I've got my deck all set and sleeved, but I'd like some help trimming the side board down to fifteen. I may swap Leylines out for Surgical Extractions.
I've got my deck all set and sleeved, but I'd like some help trimming the side board down to fifteen. I may swap Leylines out for Surgical Extractions.
Slitherhead is interesting, but I think it lacks synergy compared to anything it would replace.
For the sideboard:
-2 Unmask immediately; these are only for combo matchups and if you anticipate a lot of combo you shouldn't be on 4 Nether Shadow 4 Phantasmagorian Manaless to begin with.
Anywhere you would want to reanimate Inkwell Leviathan, Empyrial Archangel should just be better. I guess against Merfolk there's some tiny probability that's not true, but not much of one. You should never (or almost never) board him in just to race.
-4 Chancellor of the Annex; it is unnecessary against anything but combo and not good enough there. This is a straight cut.
+1 Mindbreak Trap. I think this is probably the best anti-combo plan. You have to nail their engine card (and probably not the Storm card), but all in all this is probably best. Leyline of Sanctity as a 4-of would also be worth considering, but Mindbreak I feel is slightly better. The final option would be Lion's Eye Diamond, possibly with more card draw.
-1 Chalice of the Void +1 Leyline of the Void You have to be on the play for Chalice, and it slows you down. If you're going to be slowed, you might as well do it without needing to be on the play.
I personally like Woodfall Primus a lot more than Terastodon. You're basically never going to have enough non-creature permanents you want to get rid of, so Terastodon is a slightly bigger effect but otherwise has a huge drawback. He's still defensible, though.
Contagion is great againt... goblins? I guess? It's awful against almost every other deck, though. If this is just Yixlid Jailer paranoia, that paranoia isn't justified and if it were Gut Shot would be the answer.
That puts us at 15, but only 4 real anti-storm cards. (4 Mindbreak Trap)
I think this is perfectly reasonable (especially if you take out Chancellor of the Forge for something tolerable maindeck; candidates include Mishra's Bauble, more dredgers, or maybe something spicy).
If you've got a lot of burn and storm locally, you might consider some Golgari Brownscale. That thing is OK against Tendrils-type storm, and incredible against Burn. Also, depending on how dire the situation is, you might consider some Firemane Angel.
Personal taste things:
I would look to move Woodfall Primus main-deck, cutting Angel entirely.
I would probably cut Stormtide Leviathan.
I would probably cut Ancestor's Chosen, and if it were really needed to begin with, run Golgari Brownscales in the current "Chancellor" slot.
As I cleared up even more sideboard space, I would probably slot in Leyline of Sanctity before anything else.
Finally, I'd play around a bit with Sphinx vs. Kelpie maindeck. 1 and 1 might be spot on, but I'm not sure given the rest of your deck. I view Kelpie as (usually) Sphinx-level draw (i.e. just win that turn) but with more bodies attached.
With 2 draw creatures maindeck, you only need 1-2 DR targets for a particular strategy. Even after all the cuts I recommend plus all the "personal taste" cuts you still have Empyrial Archangel + Blazing Archon + Elesh Norn + 2 draw creatures. That is a nightmare and a half for aggro decks, and anything more is just not going to add all that much and will cost a lot of consistency. For related reasons, a single Iona is really enough in terms of Dread Return targets against spell decks, and since the Chancellors don't do much before being Dread Returned they can be cut for more impactful cards from your hand, like Mindbreak Trap and Leyline of Sanctity.
Thanks again for all your sound advice. I still have a few concerns:
Mindbreak Trap is best vs Belcher or SI type decks (and maybe High Tide). Against storm I am often forced to discard and would prefer a proactive anti combo card. I like Chalice because it hoses LED and Lotus Petal which storm tends to play mid combo (hence I can drop the Chalice after I DDD).
Surgical Extraction I can hold past turn one and still DDD on schedule. Leyline Of The Void is stronger, but has to be dropped turn zero and will always slow me down. Is Leyline so much better to be worth the delay?
Regarding Contagion, I am more paranoid about the upcoming Dryad Militant(RTR). This will destroy Cabal Therapy and Dread Return alike. Is Manaless Dredge strong enough against Maveric, Bant, and D&T to beat them with just zombies and beaters? Gutshot would work here, but Contagion also can hit Ooze (if timed right), which is a bonus.
I like most of your suggestions. I am going to run Golgari Brownscale, which will also help keep the mulligans away. Woodfall Primus will have a main deck spot as well, and the sideboard will continue to be worked on. Cheers!
Thanks again for all your sound advice. I still have a few concerns:
Mindbreak Trap is best vs Belcher or SI type decks (and maybe High Tide). Against storm I am often forced to discard and would prefer a proactive anti combo card. I like Chalice because it hoses LED and Lotus Petal which storm tends to play mid combo (hence I can drop the Chalice after I DDD).
Surgical Extraction I can hold past turn one and still DDD on schedule. Leyline Of The Void is stronger, but has to be dropped turn zero and will always slow me down. Is Leyline so much better to be worth the delay?
Regarding Contagion, I am more paranoid about the upcoming Dryad Militant(RTR). This will destroy Cabal Therapy and Dread Return alike. Is Manaless Dredge strong enough against Maveric, Bant, and D&T to beat them with just zombies and beaters? Gutshot would work here, but Contagion also can hit Ooze (if timed right), which is a bonus.
I like most of your suggestions. I am going to run Golgari Brownscale, which will also help keep the mulligans away. Woodfall Primus will have a main deck spot as well, and the sideboard will continue to be worked on. Cheers!
It's good that you're not taking anything I say for granted. The best deck will be one where you understand what all the cards are doing and how they'll play.
The issue with Chalice, again, is that you have to be on the play. If you're going to run an anti-combo sideboard, the one with my "personal taste" things accounted for gives you 4 Mindbreak Trap 4 Leyline of Sanctity, which is about as good as you're going to get.
More on Chalice:
You have Cabal Therapy, so the storm-playing opponent will usually play out Lotus Petal and almost always play out Lion's Eye Diamond. This means you have to play Chalice first and be on the play. If you don't play it on your first turn, or you're not on the play, there's a good chance it does nothing. It also means it will be a few extra turns before you do anything. For us, Leyline of Sanctity is always at least as good (essentially; it doesn't prevent them from getting started but it does stop discard, which has huge synergy with Mindbreak Trap) and often better. It's true that they often find extra Petals or Diamonds and play them, but they can probably work around this if you give them extra turns. There's a huge risk if you let them go a couple turns with no Chalice stopping them. They can win all in one turn and Chalice is a sorcery speed answer.
I personally am not worried at all about Dryad Militant. You definitely can beat Maverick and friends with just zombies, unless they get a very, very fast start. The real threat in terms of hate and in terms of speed is Knight of the Reliquary, which can find Bojuka Bog. Scavenging Ooze can also be a big concern.
Often, the correct play in creature match-ups is to trigger your Ichorids and just not attack. At the end of the turn, the Ichorid will die and you get Bridge tokens. Even if you have to chump with an entire turn worth of zombies, you're digging deeper into the deck every turn, finding more cards with which to eventually overwhelm the opponent.
Whether or not you want Contagion against Scavenging Ooze is pretty dicey. If they nail your only dredger (say, Noble Hierarch -> Scavenging Ooze) then getting rid of a couple cards from your hand is beyond awful. If they don't (T2 tap all their mana, for example) then Contagion is incredible. I would suspect that usually Ooze will have at least 1 mana to work with (from a competent player) and so Contagion should be a lot worse than (say) Street Wraith. Ooze is a big problem card, but I don't believe Contagion addresses him effectively. Plus, if they have 2 mana to spare, they can survive the Contagion and still wreck you, regardless of timing.
You actually made a very good point about Surgical Extraction, but the counterpoint is: what deck is Surgical Extraction good against? Reanimator can probably counter it, since we don't have anything else that uses the stack (until we've basically already won). Against opposing Dredge decks Leyline is definitely worth it. Against something like Lands you shouldn't need either but in any case Leyline is probably slightly better. I guess against Intuition -> Lingering Souls, Surgical Extraction is better, but I don't think you bring it in against any of the Stoneblade decks. I think it's kinda a toss-up against some of the other graveyard decks (like Cephalid Breakfast). In general Leyline should serve you much better.
One thing to be aware of with Golgari Brownscale is that Greater Mossdog, Moldervine Cloak, Dakmor Salvage and obviously Darkblast or Life from the Loam all exist. Dredge 3 is usually about a time-walk over Dredge 2 in this deck, although gaining 4+ life might make up for that (against Burn for example, it definitely does). Dakmor Salvage has a lot of incidental, random utility, like letting you Darkblast or Cabal Therapy or hard-cast random creatures. I don't think you want Dakmor Salvage, but as you tweak your list it's something to keep in mind.
Time Walk comment: The average search depth is about 5 cards to find a 'big' dredger. Dredge 3 does this in 2 draw steps, while Dredge 2 does this in 3 draw steps.
Finally, the reason I advocated main-deck Woodfall Primus was to cut Angel of Despair and still leave you with some peace of mind. I personally prefer to play without a permanent-destroying card of this type, but it's up to you.
It's good that you're not taking anything I say for granted. The best deck will be one where you understand what all the cards are doing and how they'll play.
I'm glad you see it this way. I'm not trying to "argue" because I think I know better (there's a reason I'm the one getting tips and you're the one giving them). I just want to increase my skill and understanding - that's why I play! You've been a very good and patient teacher.
Regarding Golgari Brownscale, I had been thinking the deck needs more dredgers. I run two decks with 18 lands, and draw no land more often than I'd be comfortable mulliganing Manaless Dredge. That said, I will only ever dredge this if there are no other dredgers in the yard or if I need the life vs Burn or something. In the latter case my inclination is to hold off a couple turns until I've built the yard, and the small dredging won't set me back so much. I think the combination of life gain plus the emergency dredging is enough to push me towards Golgari Brownscale.
Incidentally, I don't like Dakmor Salvage because I get off on running no lands and using no mana. I would run it in Mana Dredge. I realise this sort of thinking is counter productive to deck development, but omitting Dakmor Salvage is perfectly reasonable anyway, so I don't think I'm hurting myself.
Regarding Angel Of Despair vs Woodfall Primus, I was glad to hear you'd main deck neither. If I played mana dredge, I would lean heavilly towards a fearless build. I only run DR targets main because there is so much deck space I figured I might as well. What do you suggest (if anything) for a reanimation package?
Regarding Chalice Of The Void I'm a bit confused. For the ANT player to drop his Lotus Petals and LEDs early, he's got to think that whatever I end up hitting with Cabal Therapy instead will be less significant than those cards - sufficiently less significant to warrant a reduced storm count. Maybe this is the case (I've never played much storm, only Spiral Tide and Sac Land), but it seems strange to me.
Regardless, I'm totally sold on Mindbreak Trap plus Leyline Of Sanctity (I hadn't realised the synergy - it even took me a minute to get it). Those eight, plus Cabal Therapy should give me plenty of game vs Storm.
Regarding Golgari Brownscale, I had been thinking the deck needs more dredgers. I run two decks with 18 lands, and draw no land more often than I'd be comfortable mulliganing Manaless Dredge. That said, I will only ever dredge this if there are no other dredgers in the yard or if I need the life vs Burn or something. In the latter case my inclination is to hold off a couple turns until I've built the yard, and the small dredging won't set me back so much. I think the combination of life gain plus the emergency dredging is enough to push me towards Golgari Brownscale.
Incidentally, I don't like Dakmor Salvage because I get off on running no lands and using no mana. I would run it in Mana Dredge. I realise this sort of thinking is counter productive to deck development, but omitting Dakmor Salvage is perfectly reasonable anyway, so I don't think I'm hurting myself.
Regarding Angel Of Despair vs Woodfall Primus, I was glad to hear you'd main deck neither. If I played mana dredge, I would lean heavilly towards a fearless build. I only run DR targets main because there is so much deck space I figured I might as well. What do you suggest (if anything) for a reanimation package?
Regarding Chalice Of The Void I'm a bit confused. For the ANT player to drop his Lotus Petals and LEDs early, he's got to think that whatever I end up hitting with Cabal Therapy instead will be less significant than those cards - sufficiently less significant to warrant a reduced storm count. Maybe this is the case (I've never played much storm, only Spiral Tide and Sac Land), but it seems strange to me.
Regardless, I'm totally sold on Mindbreak Trap plus Leyline Of Sanctity (I hadn't realised the synergy - it even took me a minute to get it). Those eight, plus Cabal Therapy should give me plenty of game vs Storm.
Thanks again, I'm very excited about this deck!
Don't get me wrong, Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary can wreck you. I think it's difficult for Contagion to be the answer. I honestly haven't played enough with Contagion, only some proxy games where I was unimpressed. If you have a friend to jam games, you might proxy it at some point.
You can keep hands with a bunch of cantrips and no dredger. These will (in some extreme cases) actually be more likely to hit a dredger immediately than a mulligan (plus they can discard immediately). Typically the odds will be pretty good that you get a dredger immediately, even with no cantrips. 18/53 is roughly 1/3 of the deck, which puts you sorta close to 50/50 to get one on the first or second draw (so you are 50/50 to miss at most one dredge, which is equivalent/better to mulliganing once). Another thing to keep in mind is that Phantasmagorian often acts as a dredger (although not in your opening hand). When he's milled into your graveyard, he allows you discard dredgers (and other things) which is equivalent to what a milled dredger would do (i.e. allowing you to keep dredging regardless of hand size, or to discard non-dredger cards and continue dredging).
16 dredgers is actually pretty good, but if you can go up a bit higher it can help. A very quick, rough, back-of-the-envelope way of thinking about it is that 16 is just over 1/4 of your deck, so you should get two-ish dredgers in your opening hand (of effectively 8 cards, since you want to be on the draw and will sometimes keep even without a dredger in the 7). It's also important to note the "size" of your dredgers. If I were allowed all Golgari Grave-Troll I would probably never run more than 16, and maybe even a few less. This is because a single one in my graveyard will typically get another as long as I have 10 or so in the deck (again, very rough estimates). On the other hand, if I had all Golgari Brownscale, on the other hand, I would a) kill myself, and b) run 26+. Obviously the Troll world is way, way better for me than the Brownscale world, but the reason it's better is because I get to see more cards in my graveyard; this reinforces wanting fewer dredgers. So it's a little bit paradoxical but if you think about why you want dredgers in the first place it should make sense.
For a "normal" Manaless Dredge deck (as opposed to some specialized subtype), I advocate 1 River Kelpie 2 Sphinx of Lost Truths and 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. The Kelpie is there more to be a draw creature that makes bodies (but is slightly less safe against Swords to Plowshares) than it is to be a bigger Sphinx of Lost Truths (although it certainly can do that too). If my build ends up with enough graveyard effects to support it, I typically go with all Kelpies. If it ends up with extraordinarily few, I would probably go with all Sphinx (or more likely start MD'ing Iona or Elesh or similar).
Tendrils players will gladly play Lion's Eye Diamond early against a Dredge player, especially turn 1 of game 2/3. It's easily the biggest target in their hand, outside of double Infernal Tutor or triple Ponder something.
The Storm matchup is still going to be difficult but I believe those 8 are the best option available. Learning to play the matchup optimally post-board should be an interesting challenge for you.
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Does the banning of Mental Misstep, change the actual need to play this version of dredge anymore? The card made mana dredge slow, but this deck is hit or miss on it's explosiveness as is already and has bad matchups due to the limited sideboard option without being able to use mana.
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I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Round 2 : vs Treshold (2:1)
G1 : Good player, stifle on my beater, tempo he won the first. It finish me with 2 Tarmogoyf 5/6
Side :
+4 Dryad +4 Reverent
- 4 Dakmor -4 Bloodghast
G2/3 : Very similar, No Bridge but explosive Damage with Dread return Flayers + Griselbrand t3/4 + beaters
The Dryad help a lot for Dread return
Round 3 : vs Old style discard (hypnotic specter / tourach / duress) (2:0)
No match for him :'(
Round 4 : vs BWG (2:1)
G1 : Explosive Dread return flayers & griselbrand
Side :
+4 Dryad +4 Reverent
- 4 Dakmor -4 Bloodghast
G2 : T1, Grafdigger's Cage , i forget Nature's Claim ! => G3
G3 : Dread return on griselbrand he scoop.
Note :
Dryad is enter every side, help a lot for dread return + better gravetroll=> main decked
Bloodghast (+dakmor) is finally the less usefull beater => out
I finally took this to a tournament - and a GPT at that. We has seventeen players and I went 3-2, misssing top eight by tie breakers.
I faced BUG control in three matches - my meta is actually quite diverse and this is unusual. Deathrite Shaman is a real nuisance against Manaless. They play him turn one, I draw and discard, they exiles my dredger. They can do this every turn! We have two answers. StreetWraith is the best! They tap to exile a card, we dredge it in response.
Our only other answer is Phantasmagorian. This allows us to dump multiple cards into the yard at instant speed, overwhelming the lonely Shaman. Four Streetwraiths are not enought to show up reliably, so I implore anyone who plays this (and is worried about Deathrite Shaman) to run four Phantasmagorians too. I may be biased having face BUG three times, but BUG is a popular deck and that one card (I think) swings the match from unfavourable to favourable (and is good versus Relic Of Progenitus too).
For reference, here's what I ran. I've been meaning to take the Chancellors out, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Game 1 - he wins on turn two with Cephalid Coliseum and Griselbrand.
Game 2 - I mullingan looking for a Leyline but don't find it. I decide that I can't recover from a six card hand against so fast a deck, so proceed to mulligan hoping to buy many turns with a Leyline. I mull to oblivion and scoop. It turns out he kept a weak hand 'cause he had some bounce for my hate. If I'd kept my first hand (with Multiple Dredgers, Phantasmagorian, Dead Return, and Blazing Archon I likely would have won that game (and maybe the match).
Round Two - vs BUG (1-0)
My opponent was maybe new to Legacy and had never seen a Dredge deck I think. Game one took a long time, and we timed out game two.
Round Three - vs Eggs (0-2)
Game 1 - They combo off on their fourth turn.
Game 2 - They play a turn one Graffdigger's Cage.
Round Four - vs BUG (2-0) Round Five - vs BUG (2-1)
Game two of round five I lost to a Shaman, but got around them the other games. I can't stress enough how good Phanatsmagorian is. It's tempting to board him out game two because we don't want to dump our whole hand if they might have brought in graveyard sweepers. I say keep it in your deck in case you need it (but be cautious before activating it).
Overall I was very happy with the deck as a meta call. It's unfortunate that somebody else had a similar idea! Maybe if I'd kept my hand on my second game I would have had made top eight. Sadly I can't bring this back for a few months - The most common grave-hate that came out (from the side board) was Surgical Extraction (which can be played around), and I'd like to keep it that way!
Hollywood off of the Source has been having a great success with Manaless Dredge around the Northeast US scene. His built runs maindeck Contagion and Sickening Shoal to deal with problem hatebears.
Hollywood off of the Source has been having a great success with Manaless Dredge around the Northeast US scene. His built runs maindeck Contagion and Sickening Shoal to deal with problem hatebears.
Maybe with the rise of Deathrite Shaman it's time to reconsider these (and Gut Shot, but that doesn't hit Ooze).
3 wins on turn 2 with griselbrand (dredge*7 ; reanimate flayers ; reanimate golgari)
2 wins on turn 3 ...
4 wins on turn 4 ...
Wow I have been taking some time off of magic since dark ascension and just now got back. Manaless Dredge has always been a favorite of mine. I'm really digging Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound. I think I might take this idea from you.
PS, not that it matters but your running 61 cards.. Oo
First Impresssion:
I think this list looks awful. You've basically got 8 Dread Return targets (12 if you count Golgari Grave-Troll) and I hate the sideboard.
Second Impression:
I still think the sideboard is probably sub-optimal, but the main deck isn't that far from something I'd consider. The list is full up on 12 free creatures, 4 Bridge from Below 4 Cabal Therapy and 16 dredgers. Those are the sort of maxed numbers I usually look for (excluding the dredgers, which are always negotiable and you always want more if possible). In any case, I'd take this for a spin before condemning it.
I disagree.
I've tested VERY little with it, with a friend of mine playing BUG Shardless.
I crushed him everytime, even through FOW and Deathrite Shaman.
Actually, Griselbrand DOES win you the game. DR him, dredge your whole deck, DR FLayer, DR a ginormous Golgari Grave Troll.
Chanceler is EXCELLENT, specially against turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, etc.
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One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
I disagree.
I've tested VERY little with it, with a friend of mine playing BUG Shardless.
I crushed him everytime, even through FOW and Deathrite Shaman.
Actually, Griselbrand DOES win you the game. DR him, dredge your whole deck, DR FLayer, DR a ginormous Golgari Grave Troll.
Chanceler is EXCELLENT, specially against turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, etc.
Pretty much this. A lot of MD lists are moving over to Griselbrand to be able to combo off quicker without as much reliance on Bridge from Below (like the current Flame-kin Zealot).
Granted I was against dredging your entire deck for a while, but it's just more consistent than a focus on aggro.
Dryad Arbor fits as a quick way of getting that third body for Dread Return, and Chancellor of the Annex sideboard is a great tempo card against a lot of decks, especially those running DRS (though there's debate over putting it MB or SB).
Dryad Arbor fits, of course, but is probably worse than Memnite in most match-ups (since you turn on Wasteland and the benefit against countermagic is marginal)
Targeted discard is not a problem for this deck. Yes, T1 discard does buy a single turn. It does that against just about every deck in the format, though, which means it's hardly a game-breaker against Manaless.
Remember, the goal with dredge is always to get the most wins, not the flashiest or most resilient or fastest or cleverest. If I can replace any component of your build with an equally-good group of fewer cards, my build is better (since you then get to incorporate more stuff, like Gitaxian Probe or Chancellor of the Annex or your beloved Dryad Arbor).
Griselbrand is no faster than Sphinx of Lost Truths, no bigger than Golgari Grave-Troll, and less resilient than either. What value, exactly, does he provide?
I'm actually mostly curious about the first bit here. What do you mean by saying it is no faster then sphinx?
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Yeah, as far as I can tell, Griselbrand Dredges more than twice as fast as Sphinx of Lost Truths. When the deck plans on winning with Flayer of the Hatebound to dodge nonsense like Moat and Elephant Grass (that I don't think Manaless Dredge has any way of eliminating post-board), I've found that Griselbrand gives that extra consistency oomph.
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Flayer of the Hatebound is mostly run for the reasons you suggest, but there are some issues with that line of reasoning. When you run Flayer, or any Dread Return target, you give up some level of consistency and (in the worst case) pre-reanimation speed. So the question isn't just "Does this help fight more cards?", but also "Is this better than the alternative?" For example, maybe the optimal deck bites it super hard to Moat but can cruise through everything else.
Another point to consider is that you might be able to re-configure your Dread Return targets overall to deal with the problem cards in a more efficient way. Like, maybe you really want Child of Alara instead, since it deals with all those and even more. It's not as convincingly a slam-dunk in some situations, but to run Flayer, Child would have to be worse overall - not just in some particular matchup or against some particular card.
I personally do not like Flayer of the Hatebound. I feel like he's as fast as FKZ at best, usually slower, more vulnerable to spot removal, and his ability is rarely worth it. In a mana build, where you're putting your whole deck upside down by turn 2, that's not an issue, but in Manaless Dredge the extra speed matters a lot more. Answering Moat is not an issue on T2-T3, for example.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Discard Outlets
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Chancellor of the Forge
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Dread Return Targets
1 River Kelpie
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Angel of Despair
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
2 Contagion
1 Chalice Of the Void
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Chancellor Of the Annex
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Unmask
3 Leyline Of The Void
I'm also wondering if Slitherhead (RTR) might be worth running in place of one or more Dread Return targets? Link.
Thanks again!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
No and no.
Chancellor of the Forge is just bad.
Leyline of the Void should generally be better than Surgical Extraction. You don't have a bunch of cantrips to find Surgical after the game starts or Snapcaster to flash it back.
Slitherhead is interesting, but I think it lacks synergy compared to anything it would replace.
For the sideboard:
-2 Unmask immediately; these are only for combo matchups and if you anticipate a lot of combo you shouldn't be on 4 Nether Shadow 4 Phantasmagorian Manaless to begin with.
Anywhere you would want to reanimate Inkwell Leviathan, Empyrial Archangel should just be better. I guess against Merfolk there's some tiny probability that's not true, but not much of one. You should never (or almost never) board him in just to race.
-4 Chancellor of the Annex; it is unnecessary against anything but combo and not good enough there. This is a straight cut.
+1 Mindbreak Trap. I think this is probably the best anti-combo plan. You have to nail their engine card (and probably not the Storm card), but all in all this is probably best. Leyline of Sanctity as a 4-of would also be worth considering, but Mindbreak I feel is slightly better. The final option would be Lion's Eye Diamond, possibly with more card draw.
-1 Chalice of the Void +1 Leyline of the Void You have to be on the play for Chalice, and it slows you down. If you're going to be slowed, you might as well do it without needing to be on the play.
I personally like Woodfall Primus a lot more than Terastodon. You're basically never going to have enough non-creature permanents you want to get rid of, so Terastodon is a slightly bigger effect but otherwise has a huge drawback. He's still defensible, though.
Contagion is great againt... goblins? I guess? It's awful against almost every other deck, though. If this is just Yixlid Jailer paranoia, that paranoia isn't justified and if it were Gut Shot would be the answer.
That puts us at 15, but only 4 real anti-storm cards. (4 Mindbreak Trap)
For reference, here's where we're at:
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline Of The Void
I think this is perfectly reasonable (especially if you take out Chancellor of the Forge for something tolerable maindeck; candidates include Mishra's Bauble, more dredgers, or maybe something spicy).
If you've got a lot of burn and storm locally, you might consider some Golgari Brownscale. That thing is OK against Tendrils-type storm, and incredible against Burn. Also, depending on how dire the situation is, you might consider some Firemane Angel.
Personal taste things:
I would look to move Woodfall Primus main-deck, cutting Angel entirely.
I would probably cut Stormtide Leviathan.
I would probably cut Ancestor's Chosen, and if it were really needed to begin with, run Golgari Brownscales in the current "Chancellor" slot.
As I cleared up even more sideboard space, I would probably slot in Leyline of Sanctity before anything else.
Finally, I'd play around a bit with Sphinx vs. Kelpie maindeck. 1 and 1 might be spot on, but I'm not sure given the rest of your deck. I view Kelpie as (usually) Sphinx-level draw (i.e. just win that turn) but with more bodies attached.
With 2 draw creatures maindeck, you only need 1-2 DR targets for a particular strategy. Even after all the cuts I recommend plus all the "personal taste" cuts you still have Empyrial Archangel + Blazing Archon + Elesh Norn + 2 draw creatures. That is a nightmare and a half for aggro decks, and anything more is just not going to add all that much and will cost a lot of consistency. For related reasons, a single Iona is really enough in terms of Dread Return targets against spell decks, and since the Chancellors don't do much before being Dread Returned they can be cut for more impactful cards from your hand, like Mindbreak Trap and Leyline of Sanctity.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
It's good that you're not taking anything I say for granted. The best deck will be one where you understand what all the cards are doing and how they'll play.
The issue with Chalice, again, is that you have to be on the play. If you're going to run an anti-combo sideboard, the one with my "personal taste" things accounted for gives you 4 Mindbreak Trap 4 Leyline of Sanctity, which is about as good as you're going to get.
More on Chalice:
You have Cabal Therapy, so the storm-playing opponent will usually play out Lotus Petal and almost always play out Lion's Eye Diamond. This means you have to play Chalice first and be on the play. If you don't play it on your first turn, or you're not on the play, there's a good chance it does nothing. It also means it will be a few extra turns before you do anything. For us, Leyline of Sanctity is always at least as good (essentially; it doesn't prevent them from getting started but it does stop discard, which has huge synergy with Mindbreak Trap) and often better. It's true that they often find extra Petals or Diamonds and play them, but they can probably work around this if you give them extra turns. There's a huge risk if you let them go a couple turns with no Chalice stopping them. They can win all in one turn and Chalice is a sorcery speed answer.
I personally am not worried at all about Dryad Militant. You definitely can beat Maverick and friends with just zombies, unless they get a very, very fast start. The real threat in terms of hate and in terms of speed is Knight of the Reliquary, which can find Bojuka Bog. Scavenging Ooze can also be a big concern.
Often, the correct play in creature match-ups is to trigger your Ichorids and just not attack. At the end of the turn, the Ichorid will die and you get Bridge tokens. Even if you have to chump with an entire turn worth of zombies, you're digging deeper into the deck every turn, finding more cards with which to eventually overwhelm the opponent.
Whether or not you want Contagion against Scavenging Ooze is pretty dicey. If they nail your only dredger (say, Noble Hierarch -> Scavenging Ooze) then getting rid of a couple cards from your hand is beyond awful. If they don't (T2 tap all their mana, for example) then Contagion is incredible. I would suspect that usually Ooze will have at least 1 mana to work with (from a competent player) and so Contagion should be a lot worse than (say) Street Wraith. Ooze is a big problem card, but I don't believe Contagion addresses him effectively. Plus, if they have 2 mana to spare, they can survive the Contagion and still wreck you, regardless of timing.
You actually made a very good point about Surgical Extraction, but the counterpoint is: what deck is Surgical Extraction good against? Reanimator can probably counter it, since we don't have anything else that uses the stack (until we've basically already won). Against opposing Dredge decks Leyline is definitely worth it. Against something like Lands you shouldn't need either but in any case Leyline is probably slightly better. I guess against Intuition -> Lingering Souls, Surgical Extraction is better, but I don't think you bring it in against any of the Stoneblade decks. I think it's kinda a toss-up against some of the other graveyard decks (like Cephalid Breakfast). In general Leyline should serve you much better.
One thing to be aware of with Golgari Brownscale is that Greater Mossdog, Moldervine Cloak, Dakmor Salvage and obviously Darkblast or Life from the Loam all exist. Dredge 3 is usually about a time-walk over Dredge 2 in this deck, although gaining 4+ life might make up for that (against Burn for example, it definitely does). Dakmor Salvage has a lot of incidental, random utility, like letting you Darkblast or Cabal Therapy or hard-cast random creatures. I don't think you want Dakmor Salvage, but as you tweak your list it's something to keep in mind.
Time Walk comment: The average search depth is about 5 cards to find a 'big' dredger. Dredge 3 does this in 2 draw steps, while Dredge 2 does this in 3 draw steps.
Finally, the reason I advocated main-deck Woodfall Primus was to cut Angel of Despair and still leave you with some peace of mind. I personally prefer to play without a permanent-destroying card of this type, but it's up to you.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I'm glad you see it this way. I'm not trying to "argue" because I think I know better (there's a reason I'm the one getting tips and you're the one giving them). I just want to increase my skill and understanding - that's why I play! You've been a very good and patient teacher.
I'm completely sold against Contagion and no longer worried about Dryad Militant (or Maverick for that matter). I'm convinced also for Leyline Of The Void over Surgical Extraction.
Regarding Golgari Brownscale, I had been thinking the deck needs more dredgers. I run two decks with 18 lands, and draw no land more often than I'd be comfortable mulliganing Manaless Dredge. That said, I will only ever dredge this if there are no other dredgers in the yard or if I need the life vs Burn or something. In the latter case my inclination is to hold off a couple turns until I've built the yard, and the small dredging won't set me back so much. I think the combination of life gain plus the emergency dredging is enough to push me towards Golgari Brownscale.
Incidentally, I don't like Dakmor Salvage because I get off on running no lands and using no mana. I would run it in Mana Dredge. I realise this sort of thinking is counter productive to deck development, but omitting Dakmor Salvage is perfectly reasonable anyway, so I don't think I'm hurting myself.
Regarding Angel Of Despair vs Woodfall Primus, I was glad to hear you'd main deck neither. If I played mana dredge, I would lean heavilly towards a fearless build. I only run DR targets main because there is so much deck space I figured I might as well. What do you suggest (if anything) for a reanimation package?
Regarding Chalice Of The Void I'm a bit confused. For the ANT player to drop his Lotus Petals and LEDs early, he's got to think that whatever I end up hitting with Cabal Therapy instead will be less significant than those cards - sufficiently less significant to warrant a reduced storm count. Maybe this is the case (I've never played much storm, only Spiral Tide and Sac Land), but it seems strange to me.
Regardless, I'm totally sold on Mindbreak Trap plus Leyline Of Sanctity (I hadn't realised the synergy - it even took me a minute to get it). Those eight, plus Cabal Therapy should give me plenty of game vs Storm.
Thanks again, I'm very excited about this deck!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Don't get me wrong, Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary can wreck you. I think it's difficult for Contagion to be the answer. I honestly haven't played enough with Contagion, only some proxy games where I was unimpressed. If you have a friend to jam games, you might proxy it at some point.
You can keep hands with a bunch of cantrips and no dredger. These will (in some extreme cases) actually be more likely to hit a dredger immediately than a mulligan (plus they can discard immediately). Typically the odds will be pretty good that you get a dredger immediately, even with no cantrips. 18/53 is roughly 1/3 of the deck, which puts you sorta close to 50/50 to get one on the first or second draw (so you are 50/50 to miss at most one dredge, which is equivalent/better to mulliganing once). Another thing to keep in mind is that Phantasmagorian often acts as a dredger (although not in your opening hand). When he's milled into your graveyard, he allows you discard dredgers (and other things) which is equivalent to what a milled dredger would do (i.e. allowing you to keep dredging regardless of hand size, or to discard non-dredger cards and continue dredging).
16 dredgers is actually pretty good, but if you can go up a bit higher it can help. A very quick, rough, back-of-the-envelope way of thinking about it is that 16 is just over 1/4 of your deck, so you should get two-ish dredgers in your opening hand (of effectively 8 cards, since you want to be on the draw and will sometimes keep even without a dredger in the 7). It's also important to note the "size" of your dredgers. If I were allowed all Golgari Grave-Troll I would probably never run more than 16, and maybe even a few less. This is because a single one in my graveyard will typically get another as long as I have 10 or so in the deck (again, very rough estimates). On the other hand, if I had all Golgari Brownscale, on the other hand, I would a) kill myself, and b) run 26+. Obviously the Troll world is way, way better for me than the Brownscale world, but the reason it's better is because I get to see more cards in my graveyard; this reinforces wanting fewer dredgers. So it's a little bit paradoxical but if you think about why you want dredgers in the first place it should make sense.
No Dakmor Salvage is fine, all you're locking yourself out of is Bloodghast, Darkblast, and the transformational sideboard.
For a "normal" Manaless Dredge deck (as opposed to some specialized subtype), I advocate 1 River Kelpie 2 Sphinx of Lost Truths and 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. The Kelpie is there more to be a draw creature that makes bodies (but is slightly less safe against Swords to Plowshares) than it is to be a bigger Sphinx of Lost Truths (although it certainly can do that too). If my build ends up with enough graveyard effects to support it, I typically go with all Kelpies. If it ends up with extraordinarily few, I would probably go with all Sphinx (or more likely start MD'ing Iona or Elesh or similar).
Tendrils players will gladly play Lion's Eye Diamond early against a Dredge player, especially turn 1 of game 2/3. It's easily the biggest target in their hand, outside of double Infernal Tutor or triple Ponder something.
The Storm matchup is still going to be difficult but I believe those 8 are the best option available. Learning to play the matchup optimally post-board should be an interesting challenge for you.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I like current block formats the most.
Its so limited to its power scale against other formats.
Block constructed should be a more competitive format like it was back in Champions or Ravnica.
Sig by DD Awie by CC
Manaless Dredge is a meta call. If your meta is light enough on grave hate, but heavy in counter-magic, this might be a deck to pull out.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
ManalessdredgeV1
4 Street Wraith
2 Gitaxian Probe
Hand/GY manipulation
2 Gigapede
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Dakmor Salvage
2 Shambling Shell
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
1 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
Round 1 : vs Mill deck (0:2)
G1 : land (U/B), cast planar void => round 2
Side :
+4 Dryad +4 Reverent
- 4 Dakmor -4 Bloodghast
G2 : Void leyline, I try to discards is planar void in hand (see with Gitaxian) & cast Reverent Silence but i failed.
Round 2 : vs Treshold (2:1)
G1 : Good player, stifle on my beater, tempo he won the first. It finish me with 2 Tarmogoyf 5/6
Side :
+4 Dryad +4 Reverent
- 4 Dakmor -4 Bloodghast
G2/3 : Very similar, No Bridge but explosive Damage with Dread return Flayers + Griselbrand t3/4 + beaters
The Dryad help a lot for Dread return
Round 3 : vs Old style discard (hypnotic specter / tourach / duress) (2:0)
No match for him :'(
Round 4 : vs BWG (2:1)
G1 : Explosive Dread return flayers & griselbrand
Side :
+4 Dryad +4 Reverent
- 4 Dakmor -4 Bloodghast
G2 : T1, Grafdigger's Cage , i forget Nature's Claim ! => G3
G3 : Dread return on griselbrand he scoop.
Note :
Dryad is enter every side, help a lot for dread return + better gravetroll=> main decked
Bloodghast (+dakmor) is finally the less usefull beater => out
Manalessdredge V2:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Hand/GY manipulation
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Gigapede
Beaters
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Dread Return Target
1 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
Lands
4 Dryad Arbor
I faced BUG control in three matches - my meta is actually quite diverse and this is unusual. Deathrite Shaman is a real nuisance against Manaless. They play him turn one, I draw and discard, they exiles my dredger. They can do this every turn! We have two answers. StreetWraith is the best! They tap to exile a card, we dredge it in response.
Our only other answer is Phantasmagorian. This allows us to dump multiple cards into the yard at instant speed, overwhelming the lonely Shaman. Four Streetwraiths are not enought to show up reliably, so I implore anyone who plays this (and is worried about Deathrite Shaman) to run four Phantasmagorians too. I may be biased having face BUG three times, but BUG is a popular deck and that one card (I think) swings the match from unfavourable to favourable (and is good versus Relic Of Progenitus too).
For reference, here's what I ran. I've been meaning to take the Chancellors out, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
Discard Outlets
4 Phantasmagorian
Beaters
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
3 Chancellor of the Forge
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
2 Golgari Brownscal
Graveyard Effects
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Dread Return Targets
1 River Kelpie
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
Sideboard:
1 Terrastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
1 Angel Of Despair
1 Chalice Of The Void
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline Of The Void
Round one - vs LEDredge (0-2)
Game 1 - he wins on turn two with Cephalid Coliseum and Griselbrand.
Game 2 - I mullingan looking for a Leyline but don't find it. I decide that I can't recover from a six card hand against so fast a deck, so proceed to mulligan hoping to buy many turns with a Leyline. I mull to oblivion and scoop. It turns out he kept a weak hand 'cause he had some bounce for my hate. If I'd kept my first hand (with Multiple Dredgers, Phantasmagorian, Dead Return, and Blazing Archon I likely would have won that game (and maybe the match).
Round Two - vs BUG (1-0)
My opponent was maybe new to Legacy and had never seen a Dredge deck I think. Game one took a long time, and we timed out game two.
Round Three - vs Eggs (0-2)
Game 1 - They combo off on their fourth turn.
Game 2 - They play a turn one Graffdigger's Cage.
Round Four - vs BUG (2-0)
Round Five - vs BUG (2-1)
Game two of round five I lost to a Shaman, but got around them the other games. I can't stress enough how good Phanatsmagorian is. It's tempting to board him out game two because we don't want to dump our whole hand if they might have brought in graveyard sweepers. I say keep it in your deck in case you need it (but be cautious before activating it).
Overall I was very happy with the deck as a meta call. It's unfortunate that somebody else had a similar idea! Maybe if I'd kept my hand on my second game I would have had made top eight. Sadly I can't bring this back for a few months - The most common grave-hate that came out (from the side board) was Surgical Extraction (which can be played around), and I'd like to keep it that way!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
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UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
His sideboard is tailored to fight Rest in Peace.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
Maybe with the rise of Deathrite Shaman it's time to reconsider these (and Gut Shot, but that doesn't hit Ooze).
What's he running, Unmask?
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
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WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
4 Street Wraith
2 Gitaxian Probe
Hand/GY manipulation
4 Phantasmagorian
2 Gigapede
Beaters
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
Dread Return Target
3 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
Lands
4 Dryad Arbor
Only fun play, but undefeated
3 wins on turn 2 with griselbrand (dredge*7 ; reanimate flayers ; reanimate golgari)
2 wins on turn 3 ...
4 wins on turn 4 ...
4 Reverent Silence
3 Noxious Revival
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Contagion
Wow I have been taking some time off of magic since dark ascension and just now got back. Manaless Dredge has always been a favorite of mine. I'm really digging Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound. I think I might take this idea from you.
PS, not that it matters but your running 61 cards.. Oo
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Contagion
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Sickening Shoal
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
First Impresssion:
I think this list looks awful. You've basically got 8 Dread Return targets (12 if you count Golgari Grave-Troll) and I hate the sideboard.
Second Impression:
I still think the sideboard is probably sub-optimal, but the main deck isn't that far from something I'd consider. The list is full up on 12 free creatures, 4 Bridge from Below 4 Cabal Therapy and 16 dredgers. Those are the sort of maxed numbers I usually look for (excluding the dredgers, which are always negotiable and you always want more if possible). In any case, I'd take this for a spin before condemning it.
Third Impression:
Dryad Arbor is blegh and Chancellor of the Annex doesn't do enough and Griselbrand doesn't win the game. Don't play this deck.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I've tested VERY little with it, with a friend of mine playing BUG Shardless.
I crushed him everytime, even through FOW and Deathrite Shaman.
Actually, Griselbrand DOES win you the game. DR him, dredge your whole deck, DR FLayer, DR a ginormous Golgari Grave Troll.
Chanceler is EXCELLENT, specially against turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition/Duress, etc.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Pretty much this. A lot of MD lists are moving over to Griselbrand to be able to combo off quicker without as much reliance on Bridge from Below (like the current Flame-kin Zealot).
Granted I was against dredging your entire deck for a while, but it's just more consistent than a focus on aggro.
Dryad Arbor fits as a quick way of getting that third body for Dread Return, and Chancellor of the Annex sideboard is a great tempo card against a lot of decks, especially those running DRS (though there's debate over putting it MB or SB).
Deathrite Shaman is a pretty slow, mana-intensive form of hate. It's obviously powerful in that it features recursive, targeted exile, but it's hardly the best card against us. Maxing out on Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith is a bigger deal against this guy than Chancellor of the Annex. (Source: Experience against Scavenging Ooze, which is remarkably similar to an Annex'd Deathrite Shaman)
Dryad Arbor fits, of course, but is probably worse than Memnite in most match-ups (since you turn on Wasteland and the benefit against countermagic is marginal)
Targeted discard is not a problem for this deck. Yes, T1 discard does buy a single turn. It does that against just about every deck in the format, though, which means it's hardly a game-breaker against Manaless.
Griselbrand is no faster than Sphinx of Lost Truths, no bigger than Golgari Grave-Troll, and less resilient than either. What value, exactly, does he provide?
Remember, the goal with dredge is always to get the most wins, not the flashiest or most resilient or fastest or cleverest. If I can replace any component of your build with an equally-good group of fewer cards, my build is better (since you then get to incorporate more stuff, like Gitaxian Probe or Chancellor of the Annex or your beloved Dryad Arbor).
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I'm actually mostly curious about the first bit here. What do you mean by saying it is no faster then sphinx?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord