I am still not a fan of the Dryad Arbor maindecks or sideboards. Using half your sideboard to turn a 40% matchup (it has to be game 3, and they have to have some sweet hate) into a 45% matchup just doesn't seem worth it.
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
I'd rather replace the Blightsteel Colossus with the Chancellor--you aren't reanimating Blightsteel in a million years because the "shuffle into library" clause on Blightsteel is a replacement ability.
I'd rather replace the Blightsteel Colossus with the Chancellor--you aren't reanimating Blightsteel in a million years because the "shuffle into library" clause on Blightsteel is a replacement ability.
And if you're forced to discard it it can blow your whole game.
In the current meta, what is the best way to play against hate? Since graveyard strategies are prevalent it seems everyone is running a RIP, Relic, or Spellbomb or Bog.
So, I was looking for something unique and I guess I just got what I was looking for! I wanted to do this deck for a long time and finally am on my way to building it.
I have one simple question for you guys, what is the importance of Bridge from Below on this deck 0 to 10? 'cause I'm thinking on building one without it since it's pretty expensive around here on my place.
I'm mainly thinking about putting more draws (Urza's and/or Mishra's) on it's spot. Any thoughts or suggestions?
I'd rather replace the Blightsteel Colossus with the Chancellor--you aren't reanimating Blightsteel in a million years because the "shuffle into library" clause on Blightsteel is a replacement ability.
Not the point.
It prevents super-mill decks from killing you (Painter, some versions of Balustrade Spy Combo).
It also allows him to go off with Balustrade Spy and have 2 turns to do his stuff instead of only that 1.
I also agree it should be cut (or moved to the sideboard, depending on the prevalence of Painter-style mill decks)
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
So, I was looking for something unique and I guess I just got what I was looking for! I wanted to do this deck for a long time and finally am on my way to building it.
I have one simple question for you guys, what is the importance of Bridge from Below on this deck 0 to 10? 'cause I'm thinking on building one without it since it's pretty expensive around here on my place.
I'm mainly thinking about putting more draws (Urza's and/or Mishra's) on it's spot. Any thoughts or suggestions?
If you can't get Bridge, don't play Dredge.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
In the current meta, what is the best way to play against hate? Since graveyard strategies are prevalent it seems everyone is running a RIP, Relic, or Spellbomb or Bog.
That is ignoring the Deathrite and Ooze.
How are you guys avoiding that?
Manaless Dredge is more resilient than LEDredge to one shot grave nukers like Relic, Bog, and Spellbomb (and also to counter magic), but less resilient to permanent hosers like RIP or DRS.
But if there's too much grave yard hate around, usually play something else besides Dredge. To that end don't take this too your LGS as frequently as your other decks, and don't take it at all if there are one or two other guys playing Dredge or Reanimator almost every week. People will be prepared and be packing hate.
So, I was looking for something unique and I guess I just got what I was looking for! I wanted to do this deck for a long time and finally am on my way to building it.
I have one simple question for you guys, what is the importance of Bridge from Below on this deck 0 to 10? 'cause I'm thinking on building one without it since it's pretty expensive around here on my place.
I'm mainly thinking about putting more draws (Urza's and/or Mishra's) on it's spot. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Not having Bridge from Below in a Dredge deck is like Yu-gi-oh not having his Dark Magician!
Dredge without Bridge is like...
...Han Solo without Chewbaca
...Pam Anderson without boobs
...Terminator without a minigun
...The Simpsons without The Simpsons!!!
Bridge from Below is THE card in this deck...if you don't wanna play it, then change the deck!
Well, just as I thought. Seems like I'll need to sell a kidney or two. Btw I forgot to mention that I play mostly kitchen table. Thanks for the advice anyway.
DECK 1 - Has strength against storm in the sideboard with Soul Spike, but would have to aggressively mulligan in order to answer an artifact/enchantment g2-3.
DECK 2 - I really like Chancellor of the Annex mainboard since it can delay any graveyard hate (except tormod's) by at least turn, specifically DRS. Sideboards aggressively for storm, but would struggle against an artifact/enchantment since it really focuses on creature control.
DECK 3 - Probably plays out stronger against hate, but a weaker game 1 than DECK 1&2. I feel like the sideboard in this one is the most solid and aims at answering game 2 and 3.
So... I've only piloted the deck a little bit and never in a tournament (not even an LGS) setting. I was wondering if anyone here would be able to give me some insight on the various builds? Thanks (:
I would recommend against any sort of Dryad Arbor or Forest-based sideboard.
Keep in mind that no matter which sideboard you use, you should tweak it extensively for your expected metagame. When you see a really good deck in Standard or Legacy which dominates from week to week, you usually also see the best pilots changing 10-20 cards (out of 75) from week to week.
It seems like Balustrade Spy has to be the new default draw creature, since dumping your whole deck is just way better than spending 7 life to (more or less) accomplish the same thing. You're not as fast as a dedicated BS Belcher-style deck, but you are way more resilient and get to eviscerate control decks with your lack of spells.
DECK 1 - Has strength against storm in the sideboard with Soul Spike, but would have to aggressively mulligan in order to answer an artifact/enchantment g2-3.
DECK 2 - I really like Chancellor of the Annex mainboard since it can delay any graveyard hate (except tormod's) by at least turn, specifically DRS. Sideboards aggressively for storm, but would struggle against an artifact/enchantment since it really focuses on creature control.
DECK 3 - Probably plays out stronger against hate, but a weaker game 1 than DECK 1&2. I feel like the sideboard in this one is the most solid and aims at answering game 2 and 3.
So... I've only piloted the deck a little bit and never in a tournament (not even an LGS) setting. I was wondering if anyone here would be able to give me some insight on the various builds? Thanks (:
currently dakmor builds are a bit out of date, they dont combo off nearly as well without griselbrand, thus leading to too many games of beat down and less power overall.
so from my perspective deck 1 isnt going to cut it anymore.
deck two is dead to thalia until post board so that needs to be adressed.
deck three is teh best overall main deck but is dead to storm until postboard.
Id really like to see someone come up with a consistant list that takes list three and adds two of the chancelors main, without making the deck weak to thalia. Currently no such list is out there, but itd be sweet.
overall list three is your best bet, but you need to look for michael keller's updated sideboard for it. also the one issue with all three decks is your straight up cold dead to grafdigger's cage, but almost no one plays it
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"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
currently dakmor builds are a bit out of date, they dont combo off nearly as well without griselbrand, thus leading to too many games of beat down and less power overall.
so from my perspective deck 1 isnt going to cut it anymore.
deck two is dead to thalia until post board so that needs to be adressed.
deck three is teh best overall main deck but is dead to storm until postboard.
Id really like to see someone come up with a consistant list that takes list three and adds two of the chancelors main, without making the deck weak to thalia. Currently no such list is out there, but itd be sweet.
overall list three is your best bet, but you need to look for michael keller's updated sideboard for it. also the one issue with all three decks is your straight up cold dead to grafdigger's cage, but almost no one plays it
Michael Keller's sideboard changes depending on the meta, obviously I would make my own sideboard.
The Dakmor build is from a medium sized tournament about a month ago against the typical gauntlet of legacy, so it can still pack a bit of a punch apparently. I would agree that it makes it more grindy aggro than combo though. I enjoy the different twist on it a bit.
I don't understand how deck 2 is any more dead to Thalia than any other deck listed since it runs four Arbors as well as the third one doing so. Sorry, not trying to be difficult just trying to understand (:
So what would you say is the best manaless build at the moment? I dislike how glass cannon the Balustrade Spy build is and would prefer to go a little more solid to hate. I may include 1 as a 1 of just to have the option though. Fair enough suggestion (:
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I don't understand how deck 2 is any more dead to Thalia than any other deck listed since it runs four Arbors as well as the third one doing so. Sorry, not trying to be difficult just trying to understand (:
I've been playing this deck for some time now. Here's what I've gathered about it.
-Dryad Arbor is totally a must in this deck. Not only will it help with sideboard options, its a creature as well. Having a free creature to play in order to net you zombies or have enough to flashback Dread Return is necessary. He also allows you to actually have a turn 1 play, if you opponent gets smart and after looses game 1, elects to pass, making you play first. He also is another creature to help trigger Nether Shadow.
-I started with Gerry's build but then moved to the most recent build by LaRoche (however his name is spelled) which is identical to the Keller version. Some things that I've noticed between the two is Gerry's version is very weak to graveyard hate. Yes, the Chancellors help, but an actual Leyline on turn 0 or a Cage or a Crypt or a Rest in Peace just crushes you. Keller/LaRoche's sideboard is more suited to combat the hate with an active sideboard plan against it.
-Contagion and Sickening Shoal have both been very effective. However past turn 1 or turn 2, if they don't have a play like Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Mom, Thalia, Etc Shoal is way better. I kinda want to add more Shoals and take away Contagion. Shoal has never been any less than a free -7/-7 (pitching Phantasmagorian after discarding dredgers of course :D)
This is just what I've observed. I've been playing Griselbrand/Flayer of the Hatebound/Grave-Troll as my main DR targets, but I want to try River Kelpie/Flame-Kin Zealot for budget reasons. I have the deck online on Lackey (yes, laugh at me its okay I'm used to it). Any tricks and tips I should know about Kelpie?
I disagree with a lot of this. I think we see the deck having very different metagame roles. I think only in a control-rich, hate-poor environment should this deck see play. It sounds as though you want to play the deck in a more regular environment, which to me puts too much stress on the sideboard and is suboptimal compared to LED Dredge (which naturally fights combo with pure speed, and can more readily adopt an anti-hate plan).
Dryad Arbor is totally a must in this deck... it [will] help with sideboard options, its a creature as well... He also allows you to actually have a turn 1 play, if your opponent [makes] you play first. He also is another creature to help trigger Nether Shadow.
I disagree with literally everything here. He's very slow and difficult for the sideboard (i.e. Lightning Bolt can potentially stop your anti-hate plan), cuts off Balustrade Spy, and contributes almost nothing as the first play of the game. He does contribute marginally to Nether Shadow, but so does Prowling Pangolin - It's not a reason to run the card.
... Keller/LaRoche's sideboard is more suited to combat the hate with an active sideboard plan against it.
If there's enough hate to devote 10+ sideboard slots to anti-hate, there are two possibilities: 1) This deck is so amazingly crushingly powerful you should play it (see Affinity, Ichorid in Extended) or 2) You should play a different, under-answered deck in the current metagame.
This deck is not that strong in that wide of a metagame. In a control-heavy hate-light environment this deck will dominate but in most other environments it is not the right choice.
Contagion and Sickening Shoal have both been very effective. However past turn 1 or turn 2, if they don't have a play like Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Mom, Thalia, Etc Shoal is way better. I kinda want to add more Shoals and take away Contagion. Shoal has never been any less than a free -7/-7 (pitching Phantasmagorian after discarding dredgers of course :D)
Bells and whistles are always nice. There's a consistency/speed penalty for running more hand-based stuff. I think it's more on the debatable side for these, and would typically keep these in the sideboard. Contagion is more of an anti-aggro/anti-hate-dork card, which Shoal is more of a midgame board dominance card. As with your DR targets, you want the winning-est card, which is sometimes the splashiest and sometimes not.
Budget is not a good reason to choose one card over another. This is not that sub-forum, sorry. The best draw setup should be fairly budget-friendly - Spy+Flayer
Kelpie is good with Salvage+Bloodghast, since that package will typically be worth several extra drawn cards. If you can, you want to Cabal Therapy any instant-speed removal (especially Swords if they have W) before you play the Kelpie. Often opponents will not know how to stop it, but they could in theory exile the creature in response to the first draw trigger (so you would dredge only 1 extra time). It's worth some practice to get used to maximizing both draws and zombie tokens with Kelpie -- typically but not always you will sacrifice it pretty quickly after it comes into play, then have a fairly long spell chain to win from that point. Each Narcomoeba, Cabal Therapy, and Dread Return is worth a card drawn (so that's 11 right there, more likely 7-8 since you start having dredge somewhat already) plus 2 for each Kelpie (saving 1-2 Dread Return for FKZ). Altogether it's quite reasonable to think you will draw ~10 cards off of Kelpie(s), so you will actually need to be very careful once you start getting near the bottom of the deck. Don't deck yourself, and don't strand important cards in your deck (Ex: you might need to go card-perfect if FKZ is the bottom card). Plan ahead for Persist - Kelpie will deck you if you go flat out and don't plan ahead. Keep in mind that drawing cards like a peasant is still technically a method to get them from your deck into a more useful place (also Fantastagorian or Therapy can help discard)
A few comments. I am a statistician by training, so MLD in my opinon is the ultimate stats exercise. This is to make the deck most consistent and resilent to hate.
1. I think 18 dredgers is optimal, you have 95%+ chance of having one in your opener, 16 is only 92%. I suggest running Darkblast, because it is dredge 3, can be cast if mana is in your sideboard.
2. 4x Chancellor of the Annex is a must in MD IMHO. It has a 40% chance of delaying storm, hate, and targeted discard. Gives us a fighting chance against any deck.
3. An interesting note, if you dont play a lot of CMC<3 and non-creature spells, only playing the 13-14 required for dredge (Bridge, Narc, Therapy, Dread Return), you have around a 15-20% chance of blanking an Inquisition or a Duress... its not a lot, but when combined with Chancellor of the Annex, you approach a 50% chance of screwing 2 of the 3 most heavily played T1 discards. You have a 41% chance of beating T1 Thoughtseize.
4. As for the sideboard, I have 2 crazy ideas .These are to shore up terrible hate and combo matchups
The probabilities are more of an estimate. They should be close to the true value but I dont have time to make the math supervigorous.
A. This sideboard is turn our MD hate on against Hate and Combo
Siding into lands is bad for the spy, so you have to go off traditionally, but what it does do is it does have a 70% chance of drawing a land in 8 cards. This allows you to hardcast Cabal Therapy] and Darkblast. Therapy can fight RIP except against Brainstorm, and Enchantment hate also works here. This gives you a 28-45% chance of beating RIP if you dare to therapy on turn 1 and they dont have Brainstorm (best though on turn 2 if you can land Chancellor).
B. This sideboard is to transform to Control against combo and hate
Its pretty janky! The weakness is that since you have to pitch blue cards for all of your hate to work, which means siding in some dead cards on on any given matchup. This also can neverbeat Leyline of the Void. BUT.... with Narcomoeba and maybe a sphinx, you have a better chance of having something to pitch than you would think... Assuming you side in 8-12 Blue SB cards when you use this. Force and Snapback are live 78-83% every time you draw it, and Disrupting shoal can be a spell snare (RIP costs 2) 70-78% of the time, you have a ~60% chance of having an live opening hand counter and Snapback at least helps against reanimator decks and the like. The best thing is that you might even be able to dredge first before you need to counter something.
Still a bad idea, but if you must do it this at least doesn't void your combo.
Sideboard 2: Other hate should probably be Mindbreak Trap and should probably be a 4-of. That said, this sideboard is also bad.
It's important to remember (a) to do a hypergeometric distribution /sampling without replacement to calculate probabilities and (b) the fact that maximizing the number of dredgers only address one aspect of consistency, their dredge strength and the number of graveyard cards will affect the desirability of additional dredgers; the real goal is to maximize usable cards and (c) the fact that same-turncantrips increase both deck speed once dredging and consistency (albeit only slightly since you should still sometimes mulligan)
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It's important to remember (a) to do a hypergeometric distribution /sampling without replacement to calculate probabilities and (b) the fact that maximizing the number of dredgers only address one aspect of consistency, their dredge strength and the number of graveyard cards will affect the desirability of additional dredgers; the real goal is to maximize usable cards and (c) the fact that same-turncantrips increase both deck speed once dredging and consistency (albeit only slightly since you should still sometimes mulligan)
Of course I used a Hypergeometric distribution, in fact even a multi-hyper geometric distribution for some of the more complicated hands. The thing I didn't calculate is that if you draw the disruption, P(Dredger|Disruption) from the sideboard goes down so the keepable hand should decrease by 5-10% depending on dredgers. Gitaxian probe is something I advocate maindeck because it is a same turn dredger and its blue. Maybe 16 dredgers are enough.
Really, to combat most hate, FoW is the only thing that needs to come in on the sideboard, since having 4 FoW, 4 Narcs, and 3-4 GP gives you a slightly less than 1/3 chance of combating RiP, and you only need to side out 4 cards. It's not the greatest, but given that they Draw RIP or another spell you cant let through, you have at least have a fighting chance. You can add in Disrupting Shoal if you want to increase that percentage point and there more dead cards than you want. The rest of the blue cards are there to combat reanimator and SnT. Now perhaps there isn't much of a need to do that since really if combo is prevalent, you really dont need to play Dredge. Who knows. I just think Counters are a bit better than removal because they a) still allow a first turn discard 2) can interact with more than just GY hate
Here is a Skeleton of what I think Dredge should be. 56 cards. The remaining cards should just be more 4 ofs, Removal, DR targets, 0 CMC creatures, More Dredgers, whatever
It's important to remember (a) to do a hypergeometric distribution /sampling without replacement to calculate probabilities and (b) the fact that maximizing the number of dredgers only address one aspect of consistency, their dredge strength and the number of graveyard cards will affect the desirability of additional dredgers; the real goal is to maximize usable cards and (c) the fact that same-turncantrips increase both deck speed once dredging and consistency (albeit only slightly since you should still sometimes mulligan)
Of course I used a Hypergeometric distribution, in fact even a multi-hyper geometric distribution for some of the more complicated hands. Statistical rigor is not something I take lightly! (although I dont want to spend a lot of time analyzing MTG when there are better things to do, so there may be are mistakes) The thing I didn't calculate is that if you draw the disruption, P(Dredger|Disruption) from the sideboard goes down so the keepable hand should decrease by 5-10% depending on dredgers. Gitaxian probe is something I advocate maindeck because it is a same turn dredger and its blue. Maybe 16 dredgers are enough, but I dont know....
Counters are better than removal. Forgot about the trap. Maybe its overkill to play shoal and snapback.... I still think its correct to play 4 FoW though because:
a) We have enough blue cards that FoW is live >70% (>80% if MBT is also in deck) of the time its drawn. Around a 30% chance to have a live counter in the opener. Thats not great, but not that bad, since we really aren't gonna do THAT much better to fight RIP even if we devote all of our sideboard to it. Besides removal is bad because it sets us back 2 turns cuz RIP still nukes our graveyard which gives them 2+ turns to kill us.
b) We can use counters to stop other things that disrupt us or kill us. I think thats important.
c) Its really not expected....
d) Only need to side out 4 cards.
Here is a Skeleton of what I think Dredge should be. 56 cards. The remaining cards should just be more 4 ofs, Removal, DR targets, 0 CMC creatures, More Dredgers, whatever
Still a bad idea, but if you must do it this at least doesn't void your combo.
I agree, this sideboard sucks...
In this Incarnation, I think siding into Rainbow lands will be better than siding into ESG because MLD did just fine with Sphinx before the Spy, Tapping for black is crucial because you can then Hardcast Cabal Therapy and even Darkblast if you play to stop opposing hate. I think people get way too much Tunnel Vision thinking they HAVE to go off with the Spy. It does deck you out if you're not careful and really you should be winning already if your opponent lets you DR
My reasoning for Craterhoof is that he's actually a much much larger hit than Flamekin/bc you only need 3 other creatures to make him close to Lethal. And with how many creatures have haste in the deck its kind of crazy.
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Gitaxian Probe will speed you up by a turn.
Rather than Inkwell Leviathan, you might consider Rakdos the Defiler
I am still not a fan of the Dryad Arbor maindecks or sideboards. Using half your sideboard to turn a 40% matchup (it has to be game 3, and they have to have some sweet hate) into a 45% matchup just doesn't seem worth it.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
And if you're forced to discard it it can blow your whole game.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
At least the Blightsteel Colossus clause isn't an Emrakul clause.
That is ignoring the Deathrite and Ooze.
How are you guys avoiding that?
I have one simple question for you guys, what is the importance of Bridge from Below on this deck 0 to 10? 'cause I'm thinking on building one without it since it's pretty expensive around here on my place.
I'm mainly thinking about putting more draws (Urza's and/or Mishra's) on it's spot. Any thoughts or suggestions?
11.9
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Not the point.
It prevents super-mill decks from killing you (Painter, some versions of Balustrade Spy Combo).
It also allows him to go off with Balustrade Spy and have 2 turns to do his stuff instead of only that 1.
I also agree it should be cut (or moved to the sideboard, depending on the prevalence of Painter-style mill decks)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
If you can't get Bridge, don't play Dredge.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Manaless Dredge is more resilient than LEDredge to one shot grave nukers like Relic, Bog, and Spellbomb (and also to counter magic), but less resilient to permanent hosers like RIP or DRS.
But if there's too much grave yard hate around, usually play something else besides Dredge. To that end don't take this too your LGS as frequently as your other decks, and don't take it at all if there are one or two other guys playing Dredge or Reanimator almost every week. People will be prepared and be packing hate.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Not having Bridge from Below in a Dredge deck is like Yu-gi-oh not having his Dark Magician!
Well, just as I thought. Seems like I'll need to sell a kidney or two. Btw I forgot to mention that I play mostly kitchen table. Thanks for the advice anyway.
4 Dakmor Salvage
CREATURES
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
OTHER SPELLS
4 Bridge from Below
2 Soul Spike
3 Reverent Silence
4 Dryad Arbor
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Kederekt Leviathan
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Contagion
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Sickening Shoal
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor
4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
1 Contagion
2 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
2 Verdant Catacombs
Thoughts:
DECK 1 - Has strength against storm in the sideboard with Soul Spike, but would have to aggressively mulligan in order to answer an artifact/enchantment g2-3.
DECK 2 - I really like Chancellor of the Annex mainboard since it can delay any graveyard hate (except tormod's) by at least turn, specifically DRS. Sideboards aggressively for storm, but would struggle against an artifact/enchantment since it really focuses on creature control.
DECK 3 - Probably plays out stronger against hate, but a weaker game 1 than DECK 1&2. I feel like the sideboard in this one is the most solid and aims at answering game 2 and 3.
So... I've only piloted the deck a little bit and never in a tournament (not even an LGS) setting. I was wondering if anyone here would be able to give me some insight on the various builds? Thanks (:
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I would recommend against any sort of Dryad Arbor or Forest-based sideboard.
Keep in mind that no matter which sideboard you use, you should tweak it extensively for your expected metagame. When you see a really good deck in Standard or Legacy which dominates from week to week, you usually also see the best pilots changing 10-20 cards (out of 75) from week to week.
It seems like Balustrade Spy has to be the new default draw creature, since dumping your whole deck is just way better than spending 7 life to (more or less) accomplish the same thing. You're not as fast as a dedicated BS Belcher-style deck, but you are way more resilient and get to eviscerate control decks with your lack of spells.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
currently dakmor builds are a bit out of date, they dont combo off nearly as well without griselbrand, thus leading to too many games of beat down and less power overall.
so from my perspective deck 1 isnt going to cut it anymore.
deck two is dead to thalia until post board so that needs to be adressed.
deck three is teh best overall main deck but is dead to storm until postboard.
Id really like to see someone come up with a consistant list that takes list three and adds two of the chancelors main, without making the deck weak to thalia. Currently no such list is out there, but itd be sweet.
overall list three is your best bet, but you need to look for michael keller's updated sideboard for it. also the one issue with all three decks is your straight up cold dead to grafdigger's cage, but almost no one plays it
"Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Legacy:
Goblins (21-8-4)
Death&Taxes
--refusing to casting Force of Will since 2010--
Michael Keller's sideboard changes depending on the meta, obviously I would make my own sideboard.
The Dakmor build is from a medium sized tournament about a month ago against the typical gauntlet of legacy, so it can still pack a bit of a punch apparently. I would agree that it makes it more grindy aggro than combo though. I enjoy the different twist on it a bit.
I don't understand how deck 2 is any more dead to Thalia than any other deck listed since it runs four Arbors as well as the third one doing so. Sorry, not trying to be difficult just trying to understand (:
So what would you say is the best manaless build at the moment? I dislike how glass cannon the Balustrade Spy build is and would prefer to go a little more solid to hate. I may include 1 as a 1 of just to have the option though. Fair enough suggestion (:
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I don't get this either. Besides, can't we just swarm with Zombies, Ichorid, and Nether Shadow? And we have Cabal Therapy!
The version I play is almost identical to deck 2, but instead of Dryad Arbor I run Gprobes and I run different DR targets than Grislebrand (River Kelpie, Sphynx Of Lost Truth, and Flame-kin Zealot). Also my side board is different.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-Dryad Arbor is totally a must in this deck. Not only will it help with sideboard options, its a creature as well. Having a free creature to play in order to net you zombies or have enough to flashback Dread Return is necessary. He also allows you to actually have a turn 1 play, if you opponent gets smart and after looses game 1, elects to pass, making you play first. He also is another creature to help trigger Nether Shadow.
-I started with Gerry's build but then moved to the most recent build by LaRoche (however his name is spelled) which is identical to the Keller version. Some things that I've noticed between the two is Gerry's version is very weak to graveyard hate. Yes, the Chancellors help, but an actual Leyline on turn 0 or a Cage or a Crypt or a Rest in Peace just crushes you. Keller/LaRoche's sideboard is more suited to combat the hate with an active sideboard plan against it.
-Contagion and Sickening Shoal have both been very effective. However past turn 1 or turn 2, if they don't have a play like Deathrite Shaman, Delver, Mom, Thalia, Etc Shoal is way better. I kinda want to add more Shoals and take away Contagion. Shoal has never been any less than a free -7/-7 (pitching Phantasmagorian after discarding dredgers of course :D)
This is just what I've observed. I've been playing Griselbrand/Flayer of the Hatebound/Grave-Troll as my main DR targets, but I want to try River Kelpie/Flame-Kin Zealot for budget reasons. I have the deck online on Lackey (yes, laugh at me its okay I'm used to it). Any tricks and tips I should know about Kelpie?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
I disagree with a lot of this. I think we see the deck having very different metagame roles. I think only in a control-rich, hate-poor environment should this deck see play. It sounds as though you want to play the deck in a more regular environment, which to me puts too much stress on the sideboard and is suboptimal compared to LED Dredge (which naturally fights combo with pure speed, and can more readily adopt an anti-hate plan).
I disagree with literally everything here. He's very slow and difficult for the sideboard (i.e. Lightning Bolt can potentially stop your anti-hate plan), cuts off Balustrade Spy, and contributes almost nothing as the first play of the game. He does contribute marginally to Nether Shadow, but so does Prowling Pangolin - It's not a reason to run the card.
(Compare Memnite, Khalni Garden, Basking Rootwalla, Shield Sphere, Crimson Kobolds etc)
If there's enough hate to devote 10+ sideboard slots to anti-hate, there are two possibilities: 1) This deck is so amazingly crushingly powerful you should play it (see Affinity, Ichorid in Extended) or 2) You should play a different, under-answered deck in the current metagame.
This deck is not that strong in that wide of a metagame. In a control-heavy hate-light environment this deck will dominate but in most other environments it is not the right choice.
Bells and whistles are always nice. There's a consistency/speed penalty for running more hand-based stuff. I think it's more on the debatable side for these, and would typically keep these in the sideboard. Contagion is more of an anti-aggro/anti-hate-dork card, which Shoal is more of a midgame board dominance card. As with your DR targets, you want the winning-est card, which is sometimes the splashiest and sometimes not.
Budget is not a good reason to choose one card over another. This is not that sub-forum, sorry. The best draw setup should be fairly budget-friendly - Spy+Flayer
Kelpie is good with Salvage+Bloodghast, since that package will typically be worth several extra drawn cards. If you can, you want to Cabal Therapy any instant-speed removal (especially Swords if they have W) before you play the Kelpie. Often opponents will not know how to stop it, but they could in theory exile the creature in response to the first draw trigger (so you would dredge only 1 extra time). It's worth some practice to get used to maximizing both draws and zombie tokens with Kelpie -- typically but not always you will sacrifice it pretty quickly after it comes into play, then have a fairly long spell chain to win from that point. Each Narcomoeba, Cabal Therapy, and Dread Return is worth a card drawn (so that's 11 right there, more likely 7-8 since you start having dredge somewhat already) plus 2 for each Kelpie (saving 1-2 Dread Return for FKZ). Altogether it's quite reasonable to think you will draw ~10 cards off of Kelpie(s), so you will actually need to be very careful once you start getting near the bottom of the deck. Don't deck yourself, and don't strand important cards in your deck (Ex: you might need to go card-perfect if FKZ is the bottom card). Plan ahead for Persist - Kelpie will deck you if you go flat out and don't plan ahead. Keep in mind that drawing cards like a peasant is still technically a method to get them from your deck into a more useful place (also Fantastagorian or Therapy can help discard)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Glad you got something out of it!
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
1. I think 18 dredgers is optimal, you have 95%+ chance of having one in your opener, 16 is only 92%. I suggest running Darkblast, because it is dredge 3, can be cast if mana is in your sideboard.
2. 4x Chancellor of the Annex is a must in MD IMHO. It has a 40% chance of delaying storm, hate, and targeted discard. Gives us a fighting chance against any deck.
3. An interesting note, if you dont play a lot of CMC<3 and non-creature spells, only playing the 13-14 required for dredge (Bridge, Narc, Therapy, Dread Return), you have around a 15-20% chance of blanking an Inquisition or a Duress... its not a lot, but when combined with Chancellor of the Annex, you approach a 50% chance of screwing 2 of the 3 most heavily played T1 discards. You have a 41% chance of beating T1 Thoughtseize.
4. As for the sideboard, I have 2 crazy ideas .These are to shore up terrible hate and combo matchups
The probabilities are more of an estimate. They should be close to the true value but I dont have time to make the math supervigorous.
A. This sideboard is turn our MD hate on against Hate and Combo
Siding into lands is bad for the spy, so you have to go off traditionally, but what it does do is it does have a 70% chance of drawing a land in 8 cards. This allows you to hardcast Cabal Therapy] and Darkblast. Therapy can fight RIP except against Brainstorm, and Enchantment hate also works here. This gives you a 28-45% chance of beating RIP if you dare to therapy on turn 1 and they dont have Brainstorm (best though on turn 2 if you can land Chancellor).
B. This sideboard is to transform to Control against combo and hate
Its pretty janky! The weakness is that since you have to pitch blue cards for all of your hate to work, which means siding in some dead cards on on any given matchup. This also can neverbeat Leyline of the Void. BUT.... with Narcomoeba and maybe a sphinx, you have a better chance of having something to pitch than you would think... Assuming you side in 8-12 Blue SB cards when you use this. Force and Snapback are live 78-83% every time you draw it, and Disrupting shoal can be a spell snare (RIP costs 2) 70-78% of the time, you have a ~60% chance of having an live opening hand counter and Snapback at least helps against reanimator decks and the like. The best thing is that you might even be able to dredge first before you need to counter something.
Elvish Spirit Guide
Lotus Petal
Nature's Claim
Emerald Charm
Still a bad idea, but if you must do it this at least doesn't void your combo.
Sideboard 2: Other hate should probably be Mindbreak Trap and should probably be a 4-of. That said, this sideboard is also bad.
It's important to remember (a) to do a hypergeometric distribution /sampling without replacement to calculate probabilities and (b) the fact that maximizing the number of dredgers only address one aspect of consistency, their dredge strength and the number of graveyard cards will affect the desirability of additional dredgers; the real goal is to maximize usable cards and (c) the fact that same-turn cantrips increase both deck speed once dredging and consistency (albeit only slightly since you should still sometimes mulligan)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Really, to combat most hate, FoW is the only thing that needs to come in on the sideboard, since having 4 FoW, 4 Narcs, and 3-4 GP gives you a slightly less than 1/3 chance of combating RiP, and you only need to side out 4 cards. It's not the greatest, but given that they Draw RIP or another spell you cant let through, you have at least have a fighting chance. You can add in Disrupting Shoal if you want to increase that percentage point and there more dead cards than you want. The rest of the blue cards are there to combat reanimator and SnT. Now perhaps there isn't much of a need to do that since really if combo is prevalent, you really dont need to play Dredge. Who knows. I just think Counters are a bit better than removal because they a) still allow a first turn discard 2) can interact with more than just GY hate
Here is a Skeleton of what I think Dredge should be. 56 cards. The remaining cards should just be more 4 ofs, Removal, DR targets, 0 CMC creatures, More Dredgers, whatever
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Balustrade Spy
2 Shield Sphere
1 Your Favorite Win Condition
4 Metagame Call
4 Force of Will
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Blightsteel Colosus
1 Angel of Despair
Of course I used a Hypergeometric distribution, in fact even a multi-hyper geometric distribution for some of the more complicated hands. Statistical rigor is not something I take lightly! (although I dont want to spend a lot of time analyzing MTG when there are better things to do, so there may be are mistakes) The thing I didn't calculate is that if you draw the disruption, P(Dredger|Disruption) from the sideboard goes down so the keepable hand should decrease by 5-10% depending on dredgers. Gitaxian probe is something I advocate maindeck because it is a same turn dredger and its blue. Maybe 16 dredgers are enough, but I dont know....
Counters are better than removal. Forgot about the trap. Maybe its overkill to play shoal and snapback.... I still think its correct to play 4 FoW though because:
a) We have enough blue cards that FoW is live >70% (>80% if MBT is also in deck) of the time its drawn. Around a 30% chance to have a live counter in the opener. Thats not great, but not that bad, since we really aren't gonna do THAT much better to fight RIP even if we devote all of our sideboard to it. Besides removal is bad because it sets us back 2 turns cuz RIP still nukes our graveyard which gives them 2+ turns to kill us.
b) We can use counters to stop other things that disrupt us or kill us. I think thats important.
c) Its really not expected....
d) Only need to side out 4 cards.
Here is a Skeleton of what I think Dredge should be. 56 cards. The remaining cards should just be more 4 ofs, Removal, DR targets, 0 CMC creatures, More Dredgers, whatever
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
2 Balustrade Spy
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
2 Shield Sphere
1 Your Favorite Win Condition
3 Metagame Call
4 Force of Will
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Blightsteel Colosus
1 Angel of Despair
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Whatever
I agree, this sideboard sucks...
In this Incarnation, I think siding into Rainbow lands will be better than siding into ESG because MLD did just fine with Sphinx before the Spy, Tapping for black is crucial because you can then Hardcast Cabal Therapy and even Darkblast if you play to stop opposing hate. I think people get way too much Tunnel Vision thinking they HAVE to go off with the Spy. It does deck you out if you're not careful and really you should be winning already if your opponent lets you DR
4 Ichorid
4 Noarcomeba
4 Neither Shadow
4 Bloodghast
4 Shpinx of lost truth
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
4 street wraith
4 gitaxian probe
4 Darkmoor Salvage
4 Bridge from below
4 Phantasmagorian
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
Right now the sideboard is
4 Chancellor of the annex
4 Chancellor of the Forge
2 unmask
1 Angel of despair
3 Surgical extraction
3 Ballustrade spy
Maga Traitor to Mortals:symb:Drana Suicidal Control:symb:
:symr:Eron the Relentless Land Muncher:symr:
:symb::symg:Skullbriar's Plants Vs. Zombies :symb::symg:
:symu::symb:Wrexial, The No Win condition :symu::symb:
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