I spent a good amount of yesterday chatting with ExpiredRascals about what the direction to take the deck in is if we use the new Recruiter of the Guard, and ended up thinking (well, he did, and after testing, I agreed) that just doing a straight swap may not be the best way to leverage the new deck. If you really want to build Imperial Aluren with the swap, it's fine, but since we're in white, why not do something more like this?
It ends up somewhere between Imperial Aluren and Deathblade, and has a decent midrange plan B with Stoneforge, True-Name, and a couple equipment. Downside is that the mana is worse (and also still being tinkered with).
I tried messing around with it today, trying to solve the manabase problems. Here's one possible draft below. I cut black to the bone. Still not really feeling this over Imperial Aluren ftr. The zero entries are things not in the deck that maybe should be.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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I tried messing around with it today, trying to solve the manabase problems. Here's one possible draft below. I cut black to the bone. Still not really feeling this over Imperial Aluren ftr. The zero entries are things not in the deck that maybe should be.
This is pretty similar to what I would try out for a white splash. I think Baleful Strix is better than Coiling Oracle here. I know we see this differently in Imperial, but I think adding in the equipment gives you additional uses for evasion on offense, and you're already building towards a stronger midrange game with the SFM. The mana gets uglier, but I think the upside is worth it if it can be figured out. It's not like Aluren was particularly Wasteland resistant to begin with. I think I would also consider dropping one SFM or Agent for a MD True-Name Nemesis. It's Recruit-able, plays nicely with the slightly more midrange gameplan, and gives you a defensive option to replace Dream Stalker in a pinch. I don't really like losing the discard and MD Decays, but I can see FoW playing better with the rest of the deck and space for a SFM package (which seems like a solid approach) has to come from somewhere.
I haven't given the white version a ton of thought, but sliding a little farther towards midrange with a combo finish seems like a reasonable approach. I don't think it takes me off of the Imperial version. I have Recruiters of both flavors to play around with so I'll try some things out.
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I think that Imperial Aluren has actually been pretty fine against wasteland. The dream stalkers are fat enough that you don't need to look to red for your midrange in the maindeck (compared to Guardian Aluren which I think has to look to white for board stability), and you're left with 4 basic lands and 10 fetchlands to find them. That's pretty reasonable in the face of wasteland.
I'm not sure we really differ that much on Baleful Strix. I'm generally okay with baleful strix in imperial aluren, but choose to skimp on it as part of a cost/benefit analysis of my meta (Coiling Oracle has greater benefits vs D&T, Miracles, Lands, and Combo and I'm willing to accept the costs of a weaker set of match-ups vs Infect and Delver).
All that being said: I think you can only really support three primary colours in legacy and still have a stable manabase. In guardian aluren, if you add baleful strix, you're pushing black up to being a kind of primary colour for the deck, thus stretching you to four. I haven't been able to get a stable manabase that supports this in the face of wasteland.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I think that Imperial Aluren has actually been pretty fine against wasteland. The dream stalkers are fat enough that you don't need to look to red for your midrange in the maindeck (compared to Guardian Aluren which I think has to look to white for board stability), and you're left with 4 basic lands and 10 fetchlands to find them. That's pretty reasonable in the face of wasteland.
I'm not sure we really differ that much on Baleful Strix. I'm generally okay with baleful strix in imperial aluren, but choose to skimp on it as part of a cost/benefit analysis of my meta (Coiling Oracle has greater benefits vs D&T, Miracles, Lands, and Combo and I'm willing to accept the costs of a weaker set of match-ups vs Infect and Delver).
All that being said: I think you can only really support three primary colours in legacy and still have a stable manabase. In guardian aluren, if you add baleful strix, you're pushing black up to being a kind of primary colour for the deck, thus stretching you to four. I haven't been able to get a stable manabase that supports this in the face of wasteland.
All fair points. I would still like to see something a little better at carrying Sword/Jitte for the matchups that are going to gum up the ground more. I'm tinged a little bit by my own meta here, which I'll admit is a little skewed at times. You have less disruption than the recent Imperial builds I've seen, so I would want the equipment to be very reliable. Quickling over Arctic Merfolk could help that, despite being a little more vulnerable to removal.
For what it's worth, I haven't seen anything pop up (here or elsewhere) that's really enticing me away from Imperial either.
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I think that Imperial Aluren has actually been pretty fine against wasteland. The dream stalkers are fat enough that you don't need to look to red for your midrange in the maindeck (compared to Guardian Aluren which I think has to look to white for board stability), and you're left with 4 basic lands and 10 fetchlands to find them. That's pretty reasonable in the face of wasteland.
I'm not sure we really differ that much on Baleful Strix. I'm generally okay with baleful strix in imperial aluren, but choose to skimp on it as part of a cost/benefit analysis of my meta (Coiling Oracle has greater benefits vs D&T, Miracles, Lands, and Combo and I'm willing to accept the costs of a weaker set of match-ups vs Infect and Delver).
All that being said: I think you can only really support three primary colours in legacy and still have a stable manabase. In guardian aluren, if you add baleful strix, you're pushing black up to being a kind of primary colour for the deck, thus stretching you to four. I haven't been able to get a stable manabase that supports this in the face of wasteland.
All fair points. I would still like to see something a little better at carrying Sword/Jitte for the matchups that are going to gum up the ground more. I'm tinged a little bit by my own meta here, which I'll admit is a little skewed at times. You have less disruption than the recent Imperial builds I've seen, so I would want the equipment to be very reliable. Quickling over Arctic Merfolk could help that, despite being a little more vulnerable to removal.
For what it's worth, I haven't seen anything pop up (here or elsewhere) that's really enticing me away from Imperial either.
I think that if you really want the flyer, the choice is sadly Shrieking Drake, not Quickling ("sadly" because it can't trade unassisted with Delver). That targeting clause is just too brutal on your resiliency (also, 2-for-1s are bad).[EDIT: Huh, I'd been misremembering quickling. It's not as bad as I remembered. I might be able to get behind it for versions that skip shardless] I also could easily be talked into a mainboard stonecloaker in most white versions.
Mainboard TNN is also totally reasonable (and probably correct).
I dunno though, it's all just so much more tight on space (your value package necessitates more slots, you have less room for stuff like decay, etc) and with worse mana to boot (compared to Imperial). And even after dozens of spitballed builds I'm still not seeing a guardian list I like.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I think that if you really want the flyer, the choice is sadly Shrieking Drake, not Quickling ("sadly" because it can't trade unassisted with Delver). That targeting clause is just too brutal on your resiliency (also, 2-for-1s are bad).[EDIT: Huh, I'd been misremembering quickling. It's not as bad as I remembered. I might be able to get behind it for versions that skip shardless] I also could easily be talked into a mainboard stonecloaker in most white versions.
Mainboard TNN is also totally reasonable (and probably correct).
I dunno though, it's all just so much more tight on space (your value package necessitates more slots, you have less room for stuff like decay, etc) and with worse mana to boot (compared to Imperial). And even after dozens of spitballed builds I'm still not seeing a guardian list I like.
I still don't like Quickling, but it's definitely not as bad as something that targets. You could do a lot worse than that, and I think the flash and larger body are probably enough upside to put it over the Drake. I almost said something about trimming Shardless, but I feel like you want all of the advantage you can get if you're moving more midrange with SFM. That kind of thing is where this keeps falling apart for me. Guardian (as built so far) plays a better midrange game at the cost of being less disruptive and I think that's a net loss for the deck. I'm still planning on tinkering with it some (I'm kind of curious about what a junk build would look like, despite being reasonably sure it's worse than a base blue list) and I'm a big fan of the new Recruiter. There just isn't anything really pushing me towards that build over Imperial, even in a rough form.
Even then, I'm down with more people being able to play the deck in some form. Guardian should still be entertaining and Aluren seems to come up as a deck that people would try if they had the Recruiters on a pretty regular basis. I also want to play around with a more straightforward Bant midrange or Maverick list with all of the three drop love in the last couple months, but that's for another thread.
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I think that if you really want the flyer, the choice is sadly Shrieking Drake, not Quickling ("sadly" because it can't trade unassisted with Delver). That targeting clause is just too brutal on your resiliency (also, 2-for-1s are bad).[EDIT: Huh, I'd been misremembering quickling. It's not as bad as I remembered. I might be able to get behind it for versions that skip shardless] I also could easily be talked into a mainboard stonecloaker in most white versions.
Mainboard TNN is also totally reasonable (and probably correct).
I dunno though, it's all just so much more tight on space (your value package necessitates more slots, you have less room for stuff like decay, etc) and with worse mana to boot (compared to Imperial). And even after dozens of spitballed builds I'm still not seeing a guardian list I like.
I still don't like Quickling, but it's definitely not as bad as something that targets. You could do a lot worse than that, and I think the flash and larger body are probably enough upside to put it over the Drake. I almost said something about trimming Shardless, but I feel like you want all of the advantage you can get if you're moving more midrange with SFM. That kind of thing is where this keeps falling apart for me. Guardian (as built so far) plays a better midrange game at the cost of being less disruptive and I think that's a net loss for the deck. I'm still planning on tinkering with it some (I'm kind of curious about what a junk build would look like, despite being reasonably sure it's worse than a base blue list) and I'm a big fan of the new Recruiter. There just isn't anything really pushing me towards that build over Imperial, even in a rough form.
Even then, I'm down with more people being able to play the deck in some form. Guardian should still be entertaining and Aluren seems to come up as a deck that people would try if they had the Recruiters on a pretty regular basis. I also want to play around with a more straightforward Bant midrange or Maverick list with all of the three drop love in the last couple months, but that's for another thread.
Yeah, I'm just seeing that where the Imperial version's game plans seemed to synergize with eachother, the Guardian version seems to have them at odds where they are parasitic towards eachother.
And yeah, I'm thrilled that more people can mess around with Aluren. I have no doubt that there is a viable white varient, and I get that our position as already-enfranchised Imperial players is quite a bit different from those eyeing the deck for the first time, since our choice of one build verses the other doesn't come with a $700-$800 difference on a single card choice.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Some time ago I acquired a playset of Aluren.
Should I trade for Recruiter of the Guard now, considering I've already got duals, FoW, et cetera?
Would Guard Aluren ever become at least tier 1.5 deck?
Some time ago I acquired a playset of Aluren.
Should I trade for Recruiter of the Guard now, considering I've already got duals, FoW, et cetera?
Would Guard Aluren ever become at least tier 1.5 deck?
It's a fairly resilient combo deck with a solid midrange backup plan. I would put it in a pretty constant tier 2. I'm not sure how the combo improves with new printings short of becoming more compact, as it's already fairly resistant to removal and happens at instant speed once Aluren drops, so most of the improvements are going to be in the support cards and sideboard. It stands to gain a reasonable amount as hatebears are printed because of the maindeck tutors but less than other decks (read: DnT) that can utilize them. Outside of metagame shifts that leave it in a favorable position, it's probably not going to be a significant force in the metagame. I would expect to see its profile rise a little now that one of the big financial blocks has been removed and more people can play it, but it's likely to remain a fringe combo deck for a while.
All of that said, I would pick up the Recruiters anyways because the deck is just a ton of fun. You get to play some of the best value creatures ever printed, have a remarkably stable manabase considering the number of colors involved, and you occasionally get to combo off in response to the hate cards that could wreck you. I don't know that it's the deck I would choose if I were solely concerned with winning in an open field, but I think it's competitive enough that you don't get laughed out of the room and the games are interesting.
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But what exactly make the deck Tier 2? Bad meta? Abrupt Decays everywhere?
Aluren's creature/disruption package is pretty strong and matches that of best control decks (FoW, Cabal Therapy, etc.), so it should be able to adapt to almost any situation.
What exactly makes stops it from going Tier 1?
But what exactly make the deck Tier 2? Bad meta? Abrupt Decays everywhere?
Aluren's creature/disruption package is pretty strong and matches that of best control decks (FoW, Cabal Therapy, etc.), so it should be able to adapt to almost any situation.
What exactly makes stops it from going Tier 1?
It's a three color deck splashing for a fourth that frequently tries to win via a four drop enchantment. Even with the card advantage built in and without disruption, that takes some time. It's a resilient combo deck with a midrange backup plan, but it's worse than a dedicated deck at either one of those things. Other combos are faster and can run more protection. Midrange decks can run more disruption. The deck can adapt to almost any situation, but there's a price to pay for that. Decks with a more focused gameplan can play through the disruption because Aluren regularly has to go late. Even the fastest combo hands can't win before turn three (in most of the recent performers - there are Veteran Explorer builds that can win turn two), which is a lot of time for a legacy deck to get set up, disruption or no.
Don't get me wrong, the deck can and does perform well in tournament settings on a pretty regular basis. It's very capable of winning games. I just doubt that it gets to the point where it's a defining part of the metagame. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong and I have no plans to stop playing the deck, but I would be surprised.
As an aside, AD is pretty bad against Aluren. Most of the creatures are 2-for-1s and it can't hit the namesake enchantment.
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I can't see how can Veteran Explorer help cast Aluren turn two (save for Gut Shot shenanigans). But in Legacy one can always use something like Hickory Woodlot and Ancient Tomb to consistently have 2GG at the second turn.
This is laughable in comparison with, say, Show and Tell game plan, but speeds up the deck nonetheless.
I can't see how can Veteran Explorer help cast Aluren turn two (save for Gut Shot shenanigans). But in Legacy one can always use something like Hickory Woodlot and Ancient Tomb to consistently have 2GG at the second turn.
This is laughable in comparison with, say, Show and Tell game plan, but speeds up the deck nonetheless.
T1, forest → Veteran Explorer. T2, sac Vet to Phyrexian Tower, grab basics, Aluren. It's pretty much a god hand, given that you don't want too many colorless sources in the deck.
Using those lands doesn't suit the deck well. One of the strengths is that it plays a decent midrange game, which Woodlot doesn't support well. Most of the cards in the deck are pretty color intensive, so Tomb can't cast most of what you care about in the first couple turns. You can take steps to speed the deck up, but it's still going to be slower than other combos and it hurts the backup plan. Seeing as that backup plan is what makes Aluren a viable choice over a faster combo deck, why take steps that actively hurt it?
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So some MTGO user has been tearing up events with this really interesting version of Aluren. Sam Pardee featured it recently on ChannelFireball's YouTube channel. He went 2-2 beating Belcher and BGRu Zombarment while loosing against UR Delver and punting an entire match against Miracles. There are LOTS of interesting things going on with this deck.
The deck forgoes Imperial Recruiter for more blue creatures--the full set of Cavern Harpy, Baleful Strix, and 3 Parasitic Strix. It also plays Dimir Infiltrator to search out various cards for combo turn like Harpy as well as Abrupt Decay. The increase in blue cards and blue mana base allows for Ponder and Force of Will to be played comfortably. The deck feels like Shardless BUG Lite and there were games were he drew a hand of lands, Ponder, Shardless, Baleful, and Force.
For those wondering: Under Aluren, Cavern Harpy and Baleful Strix is basically a really roundabout Yawgmoth's Bargain. Just pay life and draw cards, you can even cascade into cantrips until you draw into a Parasitic Strix and phasing trigger them out as usual.
Without Recruiter your sideboard turns more into an actual sideboard instead of random Recruiter targets. Many of the choices, Hydroblast and Zuran Orb, are for the Burn matchup, as Sam stated that Burn is everywhere on MTGO. But the big glaring inclusion in the sideboard is Glissa the Traitor. I believe he casted it once against his game 2 against Zombarment, where it was met with a speedy Deathmark of all cards. I believe Glissa is there for the Cabal Theraopy aggro decks, as being able to 3/3 first strike deathtouch their board seems great and the artifact recursion allows you to recoup your Shardless Agents, Tormod's Crypts, and both varieties of Strixes.
This version is really interesting and there are some great interactions going on here. I think the matches where he lost aren't a good showing of what the deck can do in a longer game, as there were many mistakes made in Match 4 against Miracles. But in all, it's wild.
R1: UB Reanimator (2-0)
My opponent is scrambling to assemble his deck as he sits down and I get flashed a couple binder pages of Reanimator cards along with a Tidespout Tyrant sitting on top of his sideboard. I try to mull into DRS or FoW in G1, give up at 5 cards after he keeps on 6 and still combo him out at turn 4 or 5 after therapying him off of a Reanimate. Goddamn this deck mulls well. Game 2 I mull into another stinker on 6, keep anyway, and scry the second land to the top. I get a recruiter Forced as I try to set up, but therapy is sweet and DRS shows up by t3. He's still a bit frazzled by the rush to assemble his deck and so misses the DRS when he goes for an exhume on Blazing Archon. I have a FoW in hand, but instead eat the archon with DRS and let exhume resolve, netting me a free recruiter (which promptly fetches Edric). Edric does what edric does and the lethargic beats go all the way as I stock my hand with infinite interaction.
R2: 4C Loam (2-1)
I'm on a weak hand in G1 and get locked into a spot where I need to topdeck two things while a Liliana is messing with me. Bad times ensue and Bob Maher goes all the way in the red zone. G2 sees me beat his own weak hand with the beautiful 1/1 beatdown brigade. G3 my opponent makes two fumbles that open up a window for me to combo. He accidentally boarded out the Dryad Arbor and has to sheepishly fail to find on his Turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith. This lets me ramp faster than him. The second key point is that he played a land prior to casting loam on a crucial turn, locking him out of wastelanding me with the proceeds of the Loam. I kill him with the combo on my next turn.
(Note on the above match: I'm actually a bit sketchy as to the order of G1 and G2. They might have been reversed)
R3: BUG Delver (2-1)
I lose a tight game 1 to classic beatdown plus Liliana. I win two tight SB games. Engineered plague (naming Wizard) does great work locking him out of Dark Confidants and Delvers as my therapies do dirty things.
R4: Shardless BUG (2-0)
My opponent mulls hard and leads on two verdant catacombss. I have a nutty lead with coiling oracle flipping the land for cabal therapy on turn 2 while my hand is stacked. My opponent scoops in response. I have no idea if my opponent is fair, reanimator, or storm. I decide to hedge in all directions. I bring in Scavenging Ooze, Bone Shredder, Faerie Macabre, and Reclamation Sage. My opponent turns out to be on shardless and proceeds repeatedly duress me and to surgical my decays. He goes for a surgical on an aluren, but I macabre-pitch to counter. I stabilize at near-death by using scavenging ooze to gain life, counter DRS, and shrink his goyfs. Eventually my 10/10 ooze goes into Abyss mode forcing him to chump with Leovold, goyfs, and DRSes. The ooze goes the distance before he finds an abrupt decay.
R5: Miracles (2-1)
FINALLY. I've not played this match in more than 3 tournaments. I kill him in G1 with a very aggressive Aluren after doing mean things with many cabal therapies. I'm on track to win G2, but he manages to get a end-step entreat with exact mana for FoW on my witness'd Pernicious Deed on the next turn. G3 we go into beat-down mode and he needs to have terminus 3 times in 3 consecutive turns. He didn't have it.
R6: Imperial Painter (ID)
This is the only other undefeated in the room. I'd rather not face Painter and it looks like a double draw is locked for T8.
R7: Storm, presumably ANT (ID)
We can now see that X-1-1 is locked for T8. I can play to dreamcrush and still be locked, but I choose to go eat. It's a pity too, I would have loved to face storm.
TOP EIGHT
There's an offer to split, but for once I'm the guy to turn it down. I would rather try for Top 4 and split there. Besides, if we split here, the shop will close and there's no more legacy for the day. I'm tied with Imperial Painter for top seed, but breakers put me in second.
Quarters: Burn
My deck's amazing resiliency to mulligans always seems to falter in the top 8. I blame deck check voodoo. My opponent has some eccentric budget swaps (Cinder Glade as a "taiga" to splash Destructive Revelry), but is still mostly stock. I lose a tight G1 to his topdecked exact damage 4-damage PoP as I'm just about to stabilize. I get a clean combo in G2 after dealing with an Eidolon and Pyrostatic Pillar on a very mana-starved hand. G3 I just weep silently as I eat 2 goblin guides and a swiftspear on T2 with no action forthcoming even after having drawn 3 lands off Guide in 2 turns. Death greets me quickly.
All in all, it was a great run. The deck felt great and I'm really liking Bone Shredder in place of Ophiomancer. It was also cool to hear banter around the tournament as I overheard multiple people identify Aluren as their pick for the best deck in the format.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Hey everyone, I'm looking to build a second Legacy deck. I want to put something quirky and a little odd together. I'm considering Food Chain Combo and Aluren. Is either one better than the other? Thanks!
Been a while since I've posted in this thread, but I've still been actively playing and am trying to figure out my sideboard for a 1k this weekend. My usual meta has basically no Miracles and is a mix of Lands and fair decks (Maverick, D&T, Deathblade), plus a number of less common decks like Moggcatcher. For reference, my main deck is basically the same (if not actually the same) as ER's. Here's my maindeck plus my standard sideboard:
Hey everyone, I'm looking to build a second Legacy deck. I want to put something quirky and a little odd together. I'm considering Food Chain Combo and Aluren. Is either one better than the other? Thanks!
Aluren typically dominates the match-up between the two, but I wouldn't say either deck is straight better than the other. I have generally preferred Aluren because I find the deck inherently more versatile, but both decks have a lot of play to them and a lot of room for tuning to specific contexts and metas.
Been a while since I've posted in this thread, but I've still been actively playing and am trying to figure out my sideboard for a 1k this weekend. My usual meta has basically no Miracles and is a mix of Lands and fair decks (Maverick, D&T, Deathblade), plus a number of less common decks like Moggcatcher.
I think I would cut Yixlid Jailor and the Thunder. Yixlid doesn't seem to hit enough in your described meta and thunder is at its best versus miracles, which is dead there. Magus of the Moon comes down to your personal experience and preference with it -- if you're iffy on it, I'd cut it too; if you're liking it, I'd say to feel free to keep it.
I think you want to add in either Dread of Night or E. Plague. They really increase your efficacy verses D&T (not just for killing their X/1s, but perhaps more importantly letting your staticaster and minister go for the full board). Between the two, I lean towards e. plague, but I would be happy with either.
Carpet of Flowers is great if you expect more fair blue decks, but it sounded like Delver may have been hated out by Lands in your meta? If you fear delver and infect, run it. If not, take a pass.
I have really been liking Bone Shredder recently as a versatile card that fights eldrazi well while being relevant in other match-ups.
So I'd add Shredder and one of the black enchantments and then consider magus your flex spot if you desire further tweaking.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
How well do you guys think Trophy mage would fit here?
Poorly. The only things you're grabbing in most of the current lists are Parasitic Strix, which is good, and Shardless Agent, which isn't really there as a tutor target. I know some of the straight BUG builds that are coming into vogue thanks to MTGO/Sourcer Cartesian are running a couple Glint-Nest Crane as a way to turn Cascades and Harpy bounces into Strix for the kill or find hateful artifacts post-SB. That seems like a better plan unless you're going to weight your sideboard towards 3-drop artifacts, which is super awkward. In a Recruiter build (either flavor), I don't see the point at all.
I think the card has some potential and could be playable somewhere, but Aluren is not the deck for it.
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Took Aluren to my weekly Tuesday event yesterday, and while I did terribly (1-3 drop), I hadn't ever actually bothered to test Carpet of Flower (partially due to not owning any), and...I regret not getting on this bandwagon sooner. The matchups were:
Round 1 - Landstill (0-1). I never really got off the ground game 1. Game 2, I managed to stick a Magus of the Moon and Forced the first Bolt he threw at it, but he drew a second one the turn after and then managed to come back via JtMS. Carpet wasn't drawn, and I'm not sure how much it helps here even if it would give a good amount of mana.
Round 2 - Lantern Control (1-1). My opponent was a Modern player who was trying to port Lantern Control to Legacy. He still had shocks instead of duals, but I was able to combo both games with little issue (being new, he took a Deathrite g1 on the play over Recruiter from Inquisition of Kozilek when I had both a Recruiter and Aluren in my opening hand).
Round 3 - Grixis Delver (1-2). While I ultimately ran out of gas before stabilizing, Carpet of Flowers did so much work g2 that it more than earned its spot.
Round 4 - Painted Stone (1-3). This matchup is pretty bad for me, partially because the guy who plays it also used to play Aluren. He can Recruiter in response to my Recruiter, and knows when to sandbag and when to go all out v the deck. I also just think the matchup is awkward because the beatdown plan is awkward against 1/3s.
How well do you guys think Trophy mage would fit here?
Poorly. The only things you're grabbing in most of the current lists are Parasitic Strix, which is good, and Shardless Agent, which isn't really there as a tutor target. I know some of the straight BUG builds that are coming into vogue thanks to MTGO/Sourcer Cartesian are running a couple Glint-Nest Crane as a way to turn Cascades and Harpy bounces into Strix for the kill or find hateful artifacts post-SB. That seems like a better plan unless you're going to weight your sideboard towards 3-drop artifacts, which is super awkward. In a Recruiter build (either flavor), I don't see the point at all.
I think the card has some potential and could be playable somewhere, but Aluren is not the deck for it.
I agree with everything here, but I think there's a final angle that we're not considering. I think we need to consider that this is quite close to a blue Stoneforge Mystic as far as our deck is concerned (We would never care about batterskull shenanigans, but both Umezawa's Jitte and Manriki-Gusari are relevant misses). So if you decided that you really wanted a sword in a certain matchup (And I could actually make a case for any of the 5 swords), this can tutor your sword or it could tutor another dude (Shardless Agent or Parasitic Strix) if you already had the sword or more immediately needed a dude. I think that might be relevant enough with testing.
Also, if it did turn out good, I'd be looking pretty hard at Culling Scales and maybe even Vedalken Shackles as possible SB options for a version packing the Trophy Mage.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
3 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
4 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Aluren
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Containment Priest
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meddling Mage
1 Null Rod
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Peacekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Stony Silence
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tsabo's Web
It ends up somewhere between Imperial Aluren and Deathblade, and has a decent midrange plan B with Stoneforge, True-Name, and a couple equipment. Downside is that the mana is worse (and also still being tinkered with).
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4 Coiling Oracle
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Shardless Agent
2 Arctic Merfolk
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Wasteland Strangler
1 Karakas
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
2 True Name Nemesis
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Plague
0 Meddling Mage
0 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
0 Phyrexian Revoker
0 Containment Priest
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I haven't given the white version a ton of thought, but sliding a little farther towards midrange with a combo finish seems like a reasonable approach. I don't think it takes me off of the Imperial version. I have Recruiters of both flavors to play around with so I'll try some things out.
I'm not sure we really differ that much on Baleful Strix. I'm generally okay with baleful strix in imperial aluren, but choose to skimp on it as part of a cost/benefit analysis of my meta (Coiling Oracle has greater benefits vs D&T, Miracles, Lands, and Combo and I'm willing to accept the costs of a weaker set of match-ups vs Infect and Delver).
All that being said: I think you can only really support three primary colours in legacy and still have a stable manabase. In guardian aluren, if you add baleful strix, you're pushing black up to being a kind of primary colour for the deck, thus stretching you to four. I haven't been able to get a stable manabase that supports this in the face of wasteland.
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For what it's worth, I haven't seen anything pop up (here or elsewhere) that's really enticing me away from Imperial either.
That targeting clause is just too brutal on your resiliency (also, 2-for-1s are bad).[EDIT: Huh, I'd been misremembering quickling. It's not as bad as I remembered. I might be able to get behind it for versions that skip shardless] I also could easily be talked into a mainboard stonecloaker in most white versions.Mainboard TNN is also totally reasonable (and probably correct).
I dunno though, it's all just so much more tight on space (your value package necessitates more slots, you have less room for stuff like decay, etc) and with worse mana to boot (compared to Imperial). And even after dozens of spitballed builds I'm still not seeing a guardian list I like.
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Even then, I'm down with more people being able to play the deck in some form. Guardian should still be entertaining and Aluren seems to come up as a deck that people would try if they had the Recruiters on a pretty regular basis. I also want to play around with a more straightforward Bant midrange or Maverick list with all of the three drop love in the last couple months, but that's for another thread.
And yeah, I'm thrilled that more people can mess around with Aluren. I have no doubt that there is a viable white varient, and I get that our position as already-enfranchised Imperial players is quite a bit different from those eyeing the deck for the first time, since our choice of one build verses the other doesn't come with a $700-$800 difference on a single card choice.
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Should I trade for Recruiter of the Guard now, considering I've already got duals, FoW, et cetera?
Would Guard Aluren ever become at least tier 1.5 deck?
All of that said, I would pick up the Recruiters anyways because the deck is just a ton of fun. You get to play some of the best value creatures ever printed, have a remarkably stable manabase considering the number of colors involved, and you occasionally get to combo off in response to the hate cards that could wreck you. I don't know that it's the deck I would choose if I were solely concerned with winning in an open field, but I think it's competitive enough that you don't get laughed out of the room and the games are interesting.
2 Arctic Merfolk
3 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Shardless Agent
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Aluren
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
Aluren's creature/disruption package is pretty strong and matches that of best control decks (FoW, Cabal Therapy, etc.), so it should be able to adapt to almost any situation.
What exactly makes stops it from going Tier 1?
Don't get me wrong, the deck can and does perform well in tournament settings on a pretty regular basis. It's very capable of winning games. I just doubt that it gets to the point where it's a defining part of the metagame. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong and I have no plans to stop playing the deck, but I would be surprised.
As an aside, AD is pretty bad against Aluren. Most of the creatures are 2-for-1s and it can't hit the namesake enchantment.
This is laughable in comparison with, say, Show and Tell game plan, but speeds up the deck nonetheless.
Using those lands doesn't suit the deck well. One of the strengths is that it plays a decent midrange game, which Woodlot doesn't support well. Most of the cards in the deck are pretty color intensive, so Tomb can't cast most of what you care about in the first couple turns. You can take steps to speed the deck up, but it's still going to be slower than other combos and it hurts the backup plan. Seeing as that backup plan is what makes Aluren a viable choice over a faster combo deck, why take steps that actively hurt it?
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Cavern Harpy
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Baleful Strix
3 Parasitic Strix
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Echoing Truth
2 Hydroblast
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jite
1 Zuran Orb
1 Glissa, the Traitor
The deck forgoes Imperial Recruiter for more blue creatures--the full set of Cavern Harpy, Baleful Strix, and 3 Parasitic Strix. It also plays Dimir Infiltrator to search out various cards for combo turn like Harpy as well as Abrupt Decay. The increase in blue cards and blue mana base allows for Ponder and Force of Will to be played comfortably. The deck feels like Shardless BUG Lite and there were games were he drew a hand of lands, Ponder, Shardless, Baleful, and Force.
For those wondering: Under Aluren, Cavern Harpy and Baleful Strix is basically a really roundabout Yawgmoth's Bargain. Just pay life and draw cards, you can even cascade into cantrips until you draw into a Parasitic Strix and phasing trigger them out as usual.
Without Recruiter your sideboard turns more into an actual sideboard instead of random Recruiter targets. Many of the choices, Hydroblast and Zuran Orb, are for the Burn matchup, as Sam stated that Burn is everywhere on MTGO. But the big glaring inclusion in the sideboard is Glissa the Traitor. I believe he casted it once against his game 2 against Zombarment, where it was met with a speedy Deathmark of all cards. I believe Glissa is there for the Cabal Theraopy aggro decks, as being able to 3/3 first strike deathtouch their board seems great and the artifact recursion allows you to recoup your Shardless Agents, Tormod's Crypts, and both varieties of Strixes.
This version is really interesting and there are some great interactions going on here. I think the matches where he lost aren't a good showing of what the deck can do in a longer game, as there were many mistakes made in Match 4 against Miracles. But in all, it's wild.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Baleful Strix
2 Shardless Agent
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Dream Stalker
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Parasitic Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Null Rod
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Minister of Pain
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Fire Imp
1 Bone Shredder
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Faerie Macabre
R1: UB Reanimator (2-0)
My opponent is scrambling to assemble his deck as he sits down and I get flashed a couple binder pages of Reanimator cards along with a Tidespout Tyrant sitting on top of his sideboard. I try to mull into DRS or FoW in G1, give up at 5 cards after he keeps on 6 and still combo him out at turn 4 or 5 after therapying him off of a Reanimate. Goddamn this deck mulls well. Game 2 I mull into another stinker on 6, keep anyway, and scry the second land to the top. I get a recruiter Forced as I try to set up, but therapy is sweet and DRS shows up by t3. He's still a bit frazzled by the rush to assemble his deck and so misses the DRS when he goes for an exhume on Blazing Archon. I have a FoW in hand, but instead eat the archon with DRS and let exhume resolve, netting me a free recruiter (which promptly fetches Edric). Edric does what edric does and the lethargic beats go all the way as I stock my hand with infinite interaction.
R2: 4C Loam (2-1)
I'm on a weak hand in G1 and get locked into a spot where I need to topdeck two things while a Liliana is messing with me. Bad times ensue and Bob Maher goes all the way in the red zone. G2 sees me beat his own weak hand with the beautiful 1/1 beatdown brigade. G3 my opponent makes two fumbles that open up a window for me to combo. He accidentally boarded out the Dryad Arbor and has to sheepishly fail to find on his Turn 1 Green Sun's Zenith. This lets me ramp faster than him. The second key point is that he played a land prior to casting loam on a crucial turn, locking him out of wastelanding me with the proceeds of the Loam. I kill him with the combo on my next turn.
(Note on the above match: I'm actually a bit sketchy as to the order of G1 and G2. They might have been reversed)
R3: BUG Delver (2-1)
I lose a tight game 1 to classic beatdown plus Liliana. I win two tight SB games. Engineered plague (naming Wizard) does great work locking him out of Dark Confidants and Delvers as my therapies do dirty things.
R4: Shardless BUG (2-0)
My opponent mulls hard and leads on two verdant catacombss. I have a nutty lead with coiling oracle flipping the land for cabal therapy on turn 2 while my hand is stacked. My opponent scoops in response. I have no idea if my opponent is fair, reanimator, or storm. I decide to hedge in all directions. I bring in Scavenging Ooze, Bone Shredder, Faerie Macabre, and Reclamation Sage. My opponent turns out to be on shardless and proceeds repeatedly duress me and to surgical my decays. He goes for a surgical on an aluren, but I macabre-pitch to counter. I stabilize at near-death by using scavenging ooze to gain life, counter DRS, and shrink his goyfs. Eventually my 10/10 ooze goes into Abyss mode forcing him to chump with Leovold, goyfs, and DRSes. The ooze goes the distance before he finds an abrupt decay.
R5: Miracles (2-1)
FINALLY. I've not played this match in more than 3 tournaments. I kill him in G1 with a very aggressive Aluren after doing mean things with many cabal therapies. I'm on track to win G2, but he manages to get a end-step entreat with exact mana for FoW on my witness'd Pernicious Deed on the next turn. G3 we go into beat-down mode and he needs to have terminus 3 times in 3 consecutive turns. He didn't have it.
R6: Imperial Painter (ID)
This is the only other undefeated in the room. I'd rather not face Painter and it looks like a double draw is locked for T8.
R7: Storm, presumably ANT (ID)
We can now see that X-1-1 is locked for T8. I can play to dreamcrush and still be locked, but I choose to go eat. It's a pity too, I would have loved to face storm.
TOP EIGHT
There's an offer to split, but for once I'm the guy to turn it down. I would rather try for Top 4 and split there. Besides, if we split here, the shop will close and there's no more legacy for the day. I'm tied with Imperial Painter for top seed, but breakers put me in second.
Quarters: Burn
My deck's amazing resiliency to mulligans always seems to falter in the top 8. I blame deck check voodoo. My opponent has some eccentric budget swaps (Cinder Glade as a "taiga" to splash Destructive Revelry), but is still mostly stock. I lose a tight G1 to his topdecked exact damage 4-damage PoP as I'm just about to stabilize. I get a clean combo in G2 after dealing with an Eidolon and Pyrostatic Pillar on a very mana-starved hand. G3 I just weep silently as I eat 2 goblin guides and a swiftspear on T2 with no action forthcoming even after having drawn 3 lands off Guide in 2 turns. Death greets me quickly.
All in all, it was a great run. The deck felt great and I'm really liking Bone Shredder in place of Ophiomancer. It was also cool to hear banter around the tournament as I overheard multiple people identify Aluren as their pick for the best deck in the format.
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2 Baleful Strix
1 Cavern Harpy
3 Coiling Oracle
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dream Stalker
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Parasitic Strix
2 Shardless Agent
Other Permanents
4 Aluren
Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
1 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fire Imp
1 Force of Will
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Minister of Pain
1 Null Rod
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Yixlid Jailer
Things I'm considering as other options:
Carpet of Flowers
Engineered Plague
Dread of Night
Plaguebearer
Bone Shredder
Ophiomancer
Maelstrom Pulse
Pithing Needle
Grafdigger's Cage
Skylasher
So, basically everything that's listed in this thread, plus a few generic answers. And Skylasher. I'd love some thoughts!
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I think you want to add in either Dread of Night or E. Plague. They really increase your efficacy verses D&T (not just for killing their X/1s, but perhaps more importantly letting your staticaster and minister go for the full board). Between the two, I lean towards e. plague, but I would be happy with either.
Carpet of Flowers is great if you expect more fair blue decks, but it sounded like Delver may have been hated out by Lands in your meta? If you fear delver and infect, run it. If not, take a pass.
I have really been liking Bone Shredder recently as a versatile card that fights eldrazi well while being relevant in other match-ups.
So I'd add Shredder and one of the black enchantments and then consider magus your flex spot if you desire further tweaking.
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I think the card has some potential and could be playable somewhere, but Aluren is not the deck for it.
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
Round 1 - Landstill (0-1). I never really got off the ground game 1. Game 2, I managed to stick a Magus of the Moon and Forced the first Bolt he threw at it, but he drew a second one the turn after and then managed to come back via JtMS. Carpet wasn't drawn, and I'm not sure how much it helps here even if it would give a good amount of mana.
Round 2 - Lantern Control (1-1). My opponent was a Modern player who was trying to port Lantern Control to Legacy. He still had shocks instead of duals, but I was able to combo both games with little issue (being new, he took a Deathrite g1 on the play over Recruiter from Inquisition of Kozilek when I had both a Recruiter and Aluren in my opening hand).
Round 3 - Grixis Delver (1-2). While I ultimately ran out of gas before stabilizing, Carpet of Flowers did so much work g2 that it more than earned its spot.
Round 4 - Painted Stone (1-3). This matchup is pretty bad for me, partially because the guy who plays it also used to play Aluren. He can Recruiter in response to my Recruiter, and knows when to sandbag and when to go all out v the deck. I also just think the matchup is awkward because the beatdown plan is awkward against 1/3s.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Also, if it did turn out good, I'd be looking pretty hard at Culling Scales and maybe even Vedalken Shackles as possible SB options for a version packing the Trophy Mage.
Might we convince you to post your list?
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