Got in some playtesting last night vs. DNT and Elves. I run a pretty typical build, the main difference being for my "combo package" I run 2x Fierce Empath, 1x Tombstalker, 1x Tidespout Tyrant. I'm also trying out Ponder over DTT. Some thoughts:
* I am on the Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra camp. Fierce Empath was excellent at finding whatever combo piece I needed at the time. Against DNT, when there was a Revoker on board naming Food Chain, I used the Fierce Empath to find my Tombstalker, delvecast it, and then proceeded to win by swinging with the 5/5 flyer. When I played against Elves, I played Empath, found Tidespout, and then proceeded to combo out and bounce the board (I already had Food Chain in play). In both of those games I would have likely died if I had Genesis Hydra instead.
* I like having the 3/1 split of Abrupt Decay mainboard/sideboard.
* I like having the 4/1 split of Force of Will and Misdirection. Using Misdirection to save a Tombstalker or DRS from a Swords to Plowshares - and then killing an opponent's creature - is pretty excellent.
* 4x Baleful Strix continues to be wonderful in midrange/grinder matches. I would definitely side these out against combo, though (and likely replace with counters or discard).
* I only saw 1x Ponder all night and it did find me a combo piece, so that worked out well. For a deck as starved for mana as Food Chain is, being only 1 mana is relevant.
* I never saw the 1x Sylvan Library. I will probably keep it in, but I've also considered running 1x Dimir Charm in its place. I was pleased with Dimir Charm in prior testing.
* Because my friend and I were testing out new things, we didn't get around to using SBs yet. I plan to report in this weekend after further testing, including sideboard usage.
As a general note, the version running Fierce Empath over Genesis and Ponder over DTT seems more robust and more resilient. Obviously this comes from a very small sample size. The basis for my claim is essentially that Fierce Empath brings you back from the abyss (when you are losing) whereas Genesis you are already in a win-more situation, and that Ponder helps get you out of being mana-starved (i.e., you can actually keep riskier opening hands as long as you have a Ponder in there to dig).
Just found out that, if Sidisi, Undead Vizier bites it in response to her Exploit trigger, she never gets to search. Shucks--guess that Sidisi 2 is unplayable in this deck...
Empath + Delve creatures is just better to me than Genesis Hydra. This deck does not actively assemble it's combo pieces - there are no tutors for Food Chain in the deck and only four copies. There are also no tutors for finishers in the deck and only three copies (either 2x Empath + Vela or 2x Hydra + Tyrant). This means most games will be a midrange grind and many times you will not naturally draw all combo pieces (even without disruption) or you will have to wait several turns for it. Fierce Empath is much better at establishing board presence in the absence of your combo. The "big" advantage of Hyrda over Empath in getting out the finisher even if countered I don't think is that big a deal - if your opponent knows the deck and fears the combo the card to counter is Food Chain.
I played a game against zoo (Wild Nacatl+Goyf etc) where I had 4 mana and was down to 1 card, Empath, in hand and faced Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Goyf. I played the Empath, tutored for and played Tasigur with my one remaining land and in the process delved my graveyard away and turned goyf into a 1/2 from a 4/5. I took control of the board for a few turns with Tasigur and won. If I had Hydra I would have lost.
Against an empty board with a need to create pressure, Empath lets you do it with 3 mana.
I also had a case where I was on three lands with Empath and Food Chain on the board. His 3 cmc let me cast a Griffin and win with the Vela I just tutored for on the spot (I had a griffin in exile through FoW).
Once I embraced Empath over Hydra I also came to the conclusion to use Vela over Tyrant. Two reasons:
1. Vela is 6 cmc versus 8 cmc and I have hard cast her once! Better than the never (ever) from Tyrant.
2. Vela wins on your turn when you combo. No need to fear a lightning bolt when you are at 3 or less or a TNN on board.
But you say you can respond with any instant to save Tyrant! That's true, but that means you have to have mana open (Griffin won't get it for you) and have a stray Brainstorm or Abrupt Decay ready to cast. Typically you will not have those cards in hand as they are essential to use to stall the game or build your hand. So I don't really buy that advantage either.
I will concede Tyrant is much better vs Show And Tell, but he is still just one card - and that is just one deck. I also concede the difference between Vela and Tyrant is not nearly as big as the difference between Empath and Hydra.
I recently decided to build Food Chain on MTGO after playing a proxied version I had for a while against friends. The proxied paper version was the Genesis Hydra/Dig Through Time build, and when I made the jump to MTGO I decided to build the Shardless Agent/Fierce Empath version because regularly generating enough mana to Genesis Hydra for your whole deck would simply take too long within the constraints of the client.
After playing quite a few games with both versions, I 100% agree that the Shardless Agent/Fierce Empath version is much much better. Shardless Agent just feels way too powerful in the deck not to be playing, and Fierce Empath being able to search up Tombstalker when you haven't assembled the combo is MILES better than casting a Genesis Hydra for 2-4. Decks like Shardless BUG and BUG Delver can have a lot of trouble dealing with Tombstalker, especially when it has an Empath to protect it from Liliana of the Veil. It makes racing very easy with a Griffin or two, and overall is a much stronger backup plan than what Hydra provides. I haven't tried Tasigur, the Golden Fang yet, but I really like the flying and immunity to Karakas provided by Tombstalker. I could potentially try running both, but I'm not sure where I would fit it.
I played my first daily event with the deck tonight, and went 3-1. I played against:
I've been playing in various 2 mans and stuff, but this was my first actual event. The deck felt super solid, although I kind of want to add a 21st land or a 5th mana dork because the easiest way for me to lose in fair matchups is to get bottlenecked with mana denial.
One of the basics should be a Misty Rainforest, but I haven't picked one up yet. The sideboard is almost certainly wrong, as it was based on a combination of a bunch of different lists and what I happened to have.
Impressed: Thoughtseize: Our combo matchup isn't great, so obviously this was fantastic. Relic of Progenitus: I really really like this card against Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, as it pulls some pretty awesome double duty. It obviously hinders their Tarmogoyfs and Deathrites, but it also has the hidden mode of going super grindy mode by recurring Griffins repeatedly when you don't have the combo. Abrupt Decay: Some matchups you want the fourth. Engineered Plague: Definitely relevant in enough matchups between Thopter/Sword, Elves, Goblins, and Monastery Mentor (who has been growing in popularity recently).
Not Particularly Impressed: Obstinate Baloth: I wasn't crazy about this card. Even if you manage to "get" your BUG opponent when they plus Liliana, it still just gets outclassed by Tarmogoyf anyway. Thorn of Amethyst: While sweet against jank like Belcher, it also slows me down quite a bit as I try to dig for more disruption. Storm can generally answer it, and I can't play through it enough to bring it in against cantrip-heavy fair decks (where my mana is under attack anyways). If I played an extra land/dork, I might be more interested.
The rest were all fine role-players that I brought in every now and then.
Some cards I want to try:
Disfigure: Cheap interaction is sweet, especially against Delver decks where I want to lower my curve down a little in the face of their mana denial. Carpet of Flowers: This card seems sweet. We generate enough value where we will usually have an outlet to use this on, and the decks where our mana is being restricted are generally blue as well! Would definitely want the Tasigur if I were boarding this. Misty Rainforest: I really like being able to be flexible with my land count between games. This might be a better solution than adding it to the main, as then I can bring it in against faster disruptive decks and/or on the play, while leaving it out against slow decks where drawing gas is more essential or my dorks are more likely to live.
What do other people generally end up boarding out? I usually look at Baleful Strix/Abrupt Decay against unfair decks that don't care about them, Force of Will against grindy fair decks, and in general also look at the 2nd Ponder and 2nd Fierce Empath (and potentially one of the targets as well) when I can't find other cuts.
Don't mean to derail the thread, but since Food Chain is a "developing" deck - it is in the Developing section, after all! - I thought it might be an interesting exercise to list out every possible permutation of Food Chain and then discuss the pros and cons of each variant. I've taken some time to dig through tourney postings and also brainstorm crazy combinations to come up with these variants. So without further ado:
BUG Food Chain - obviously there are minor variations in terms of card selection here (DTT vs. Ponder, Fierce Empath vs. Genesis Hydra) but in general you are looking at either the Jesper Holm or Jeffrey Chen version, which is the closest to having a "stock list" as we have at the present. These lists run the combo core + the black goodstuff with DRS and Baleful Strix.
UG Food Chain - this is the old version that runs stuff like Aethersnipe and tutor creatures (Raven Familiar, Court Hussar) to dig for the combo.
bRUG Cascade Chain - I've only found one list like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14477&iddeck=106947) but it seems pretty hilarious. It doesn't really care about the combo per se and just goes nuts with cascade effects (Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf). It looks like you out-CA your opponent and win either by swarming the board with creatures or by cascading into a Food Chain and comboing into your Griffins from there. There's also a combo kill-con with the enchantment god.
My humble suggestion - Bant Chain. I haven't seen any decks like this, but Bant is my favorite color scheme and I'd be intrigued to make a Bant version of Food Chain work. In terms of what you get from white, you get your removal still (Swords to Plowshares instead of Abrupt Decay) and an intriguing tutor effect to ensure the combo(Enlightened Tutor) all while having a stable mana base by being able to use my favorite mana dork (Noble Hierarch). Having the white splash also gives you access to powerful SB cards, namely Rest in Piece.
What do you guys consider as pros and cons of each variant? Would you like to see me list out my proposed Bant Chain list?
The Purphoros, God of the Forge version you listed looks cool. It would make everything in the deck definitely castable - one of my pet peeves against the 'stock' version. Purphoros also dodges all of the big 3 removal since he will never be a creature so you can just cast him and let him sit there. His 2R +1/+0 ability would help the midrange beatdown plan.
As it stands though it plays no removal which I don't like. Maybe adding lightning bolt would help there? I'd like to see if it can put up some results.
Post up the Bant list. Personally I don't like the card disadvantage that is Enlightened Tutor. Rest in Peace sounds pretty good since dead Griffins will be immediately castable without any extra work of exiling your graveyard. Working in the RIP + Energy Field combo would certainly give you time to get your win combo - I assume Tyrant in a Bant list.
Here's a very rough draft of the Bant Chain concept:
Creatures (18)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Fierce Empath
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Misthollow Griffin
Noncreature Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
Lands (21)
Sideboard: RIP+Energy Field; a 4th StP; a 4th Tutor; whatever else you want to put in there (O-Ring, more counters, etc.).
The immediate challenges with constructing this list are figuring out the creature package and also figuring out how to fit in all the "goodstuff.dec" spells. Creature-wise, I don't know what the correct number of Wall of Blossoms would be (if any). 2x Cliques can either be MB or SB depending on room. I prefer Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra, but I don't know if having Tidespout + Emrakul as tutor targets makes sense (they are both game-enders in a similar way - the only different being Emrakul protects you against Painters and the like).
Spell-wise, I would like to have 4 StP in the deck but I haven't found room for it yet. I don't like running fewer than 21 lands, which is unlike the recent postings that have 20 or even 19 lands; that feels far too light for my personal taste.
On an unrelated note, I recently upped my BUG Chain version to 22 lands (3 basics, 7 o'duals, 12 fetches) and the deck feels FAR more robust to land/mana/resource denial. I think I will continue with the 22 land version for now to confirm that is the case. The deck has had better success with 22 lands in playtesting (against Infect and Maverick).
At some point I would like to playtest a Cascade Chain version just because it seems so trolly.
I think you'd have to really value getting Food Chain out to switch from Black to White. It looks like the same list except downgrades.
DRS > Noble Hierarch
Abrupt Decay > StP
Baleful Strix > Wall of Blossoms
Of course each of those are not strictly better and would depend on matchups but in general I think it to be the case.
I also don't know why you'd go with Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra if you are not playing any Delve creatures.
I think the 'stock' list with a white splash off a fetchland would be better if you really want Enlightened Tutor. Personally I don't think Food Chain does enough to have to tutor. It is already bad in multiples.
So I've been doing more playtesting of the current stock BUG list with some minor tweaks that I feel has really improved the consistency of the deck. I'll start with the deck list and explain from there:
Sideboard - in progress. For now playtesting off of the Holm/Chen SB's. My prior MB Cliques are now SB.
My changes:
-As I alluded to in a prior post, 22 lands has made a notable difference. Running 12 fetches/22 lands fuels your DRS, delve mechanics, and increases your chances of actually hitting 3-5 lands in play consistently so you can play out your stuff.
-Probably the biggest change: Thoughtseize MB. It has been all kinds of wonderful. I've always enjoyed TS and seem to draw it in my opening hand at a mindbogglingly good rate, but in a deck that combos out (on average) 1-2 turns slower than other Legacy combo decks, it makes a huge difference. Not only does it slow your opponent down and give information (e.g., "Do they have a way to stop my combo?"), it shores up this deck's biggest weakness: lack of T1 play. Obviously it is always nice to play a DRS T1 to have 3 mana the following turn, but what happens if you don't have a DRS in your opening hand? Running TS mainboard essentially doubles the chance you have of having an impactful T1 play. I have debating dropping the 1-of Ponder and putting in a 4th TS mainboard, but for now I am happy with the 3/1 split.
-I remain a staunch proponent of the Fierce Empath tutor package route of: 2x Empath, 1x Tombstalker, 1x Tidespout. Tombstalker is your "fair game" winner and Tidespout is your combo winner. Perhaps I've played far too many matches with my silver bullet Maverick deck, but to me the tutor effect of Empath is more reliable than Genesis Hydra (which in turn relies on another card, Food Chain).
What would you do to fit Essence Warden into the deck? What kind of shell would you run? It isn't inherently tutorable nor is it a worthy T1 drop. I don't mean to dismiss it outright, I just don't immediately see its application in the deck over more consistent/powerful lines of play.
I think I would rather go for the lock than Emmy or some other massive fatty. Simply due to the fact that these are castable when food chain has been destroyed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"You can't stop the signal, Mel." - Mr. Universe
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
Just finished putting this deck together on MTGO and have played 5 games so far going 4-1. Loss was to U/R Delver which came out too fast. I’ve played a mix of games with and without Shardless Agent and I’ve had a couple of cool wins.
Hi. That bant list seems fun. Anyone have had any luck with it? I would love to see a refined list. If you go rest in peace/energy field. Would you then all so go helm of obedience? Was just wandering
Hello. I was building/proxying Shardless BUG for a long time and have recently fell in love with this deck. Force of Will pitching Misthollow Griffin makes my insides so happy. Having 3 3/3 (pseudo vigilance) flyers is great. Plus, I love I win buttons. However, I have one major question:
Looking at online lists, I have seen a lot of players play with a land count ranging from 17-20. Is there a general consensus players have reached on the mana base? I assume if you are playing 3 or 4 Ponders you would want to play less lands. Right now I am on the 8 cantrips (11 if counting Manipulate Fate), 18 land side of things and I have seemed to be enjoying it. More practice will determine my conclusion. I am ecstatic to find a deck I thoroughly enjoy the play style of.
Hi there, with the spoiler for eldritch moon online, Eternal Scourge could serve as griffin 5-8 even if he isn't blue to pitch to force of will.
What do you guys think?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I think you may be misreading Lost Legacy. It only draws for each card exiled from hand. There's merit to having a MD extraction effect sometimes, but it's going to be less reliable than Manipulate Fate if you're only ever planning on using it on yourself. It's also more expensive and not blue, which are relevant concerns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
Hey everyone, I'm looking to build a second Legacy deck. I want to put something quirky and a little odd together. I'm considering Food Chain Combo and Aluren. Is either one better than the other? Thanks!
Nota Bene:
the Flooded Strand is because I ain't got another Misty.
The 'board is probably a mess, but at least has answers to lots of things....
Although I'm concerned about burn. Ideas??
The only original tech is the perplex and the dimir machinations. Their hard-cast effects are niche but sometimes come in handy. But the ability to tutor for cmc 3 is key because I can get any piece for the combo: food chain, eternal scourge or maga, traitor to mortals.
Getting the combo turn 4ish is not hard. But what's really interesting is the games where it just turns into grinding or beating with 3/3 quasi-vigilant/indestructible griffins. It can feel Delveresque!
Interested in feedback. Thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists. Viva L'Assemblage!
Modern-- Fish; Jund; Burn; Affinity; Mill Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress 60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
Okay here's my share out from last night with the above list:
Went 2-1-1 for $15 store credit
Rd 1 vs Death and Taxes. Draw 1-1
Game one scrabbled to find food chain, eternal scourge and maga, traitor to mortals.
Game two I had the pieces assembled but as soon as I started to go off he Aether Vialed in a Phyrexian Revoker and turned off my food chain.
He Got Sword of Fire and Ice on his Serra Avenger, with double Mother of Runes, so all my Strix and Griffin chumping couldn't last long enough for me to kill his Revoker. I Abrupt Decayed it once but he had untapped Mom to protect it....
Rd 2 vs Lands. Lose 1-2.
Game one got the combo and he scooped to Fierce Empath without even needing to see Emrakul....
Game two I countered both of his Crop Rotations, but he Gambled and assembled the Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths.
Game three I was beating with 3/3 flyers, and even when he cracked his combo again for Marit Lage I was able to chump for a minute. But not long enough.
Rd 3 vs Miracles. Win 2-1.
Game one we both countered stuff for a while, me getting a SDTop and a Counterbalance, but then he got another Top and miracled an Entreat the Angels to make four 4/4s and win.
Game 2. Post sideboard was better. I got back to back Hymns on turn 2 and 3, which gave me room to get my combo.
Game 3 was similar as I resolved a Hymn, then we both stalled out a little. He cast at least four Brainstorm/Ponders, and was digging and topping and he could never find his pieces. But he had countermagic in hand. So instead of running my Food Chain into it, I just used my Deathrite Shamans to drain him out.
Rd. 4 vs. Shared Fate brew. Win 2-0.
Both games he resolved his eponymous card (go ahead and click on it), and we did the weird use-each-other's-deck business.
But I'd already exiled Griffins, so I cast those and beat down.
All in all, good fun. Pretty fragile deck. People were saying Aluren is easier to pull off. But I don't have any Alurens, and it costs four anyhow....
Plus, and this might be the main point here, I get to cast arguably to two very best creatures ever in the game: Emrakul and Deathrite Shaman. Think about that. So. Fun.
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists. Viva L'Assemblage!
Modern-- Fish; Jund; Burn; Affinity; Mill Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress 60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
* I am on the Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra camp. Fierce Empath was excellent at finding whatever combo piece I needed at the time. Against DNT, when there was a Revoker on board naming Food Chain, I used the Fierce Empath to find my Tombstalker, delvecast it, and then proceeded to win by swinging with the 5/5 flyer. When I played against Elves, I played Empath, found Tidespout, and then proceeded to combo out and bounce the board (I already had Food Chain in play). In both of those games I would have likely died if I had Genesis Hydra instead.
* I like having the 3/1 split of Abrupt Decay mainboard/sideboard.
* I like having the 4/1 split of Force of Will and Misdirection. Using Misdirection to save a Tombstalker or DRS from a Swords to Plowshares - and then killing an opponent's creature - is pretty excellent.
* 4x Baleful Strix continues to be wonderful in midrange/grinder matches. I would definitely side these out against combo, though (and likely replace with counters or discard).
* I only saw 1x Ponder all night and it did find me a combo piece, so that worked out well. For a deck as starved for mana as Food Chain is, being only 1 mana is relevant.
* I never saw the 1x Sylvan Library. I will probably keep it in, but I've also considered running 1x Dimir Charm in its place. I was pleased with Dimir Charm in prior testing.
* Because my friend and I were testing out new things, we didn't get around to using SBs yet. I plan to report in this weekend after further testing, including sideboard usage.
As a general note, the version running Fierce Empath over Genesis and Ponder over DTT seems more robust and more resilient. Obviously this comes from a very small sample size. The basis for my claim is essentially that Fierce Empath brings you back from the abyss (when you are losing) whereas Genesis you are already in a win-more situation, and that Ponder helps get you out of being mana-starved (i.e., you can actually keep riskier opening hands as long as you have a Ponder in there to dig).
Fierce Empath, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Tombstalker, and Vela the Night-Clad
over this package:
Vendilion Clique, Genesis Hydra, Dig Through Time, and Tidespout Tyrant
Empath + Delve creatures is just better to me than Genesis Hydra. This deck does not actively assemble it's combo pieces - there are no tutors for Food Chain in the deck and only four copies. There are also no tutors for finishers in the deck and only three copies (either 2x Empath + Vela or 2x Hydra + Tyrant). This means most games will be a midrange grind and many times you will not naturally draw all combo pieces (even without disruption) or you will have to wait several turns for it. Fierce Empath is much better at establishing board presence in the absence of your combo. The "big" advantage of Hyrda over Empath in getting out the finisher even if countered I don't think is that big a deal - if your opponent knows the deck and fears the combo the card to counter is Food Chain.
I played a game against zoo (Wild Nacatl+Goyf etc) where I had 4 mana and was down to 1 card, Empath, in hand and faced Nacatl, Kird Ape, and Goyf. I played the Empath, tutored for and played Tasigur with my one remaining land and in the process delved my graveyard away and turned goyf into a 1/2 from a 4/5. I took control of the board for a few turns with Tasigur and won. If I had Hydra I would have lost.
Against an empty board with a need to create pressure, Empath lets you do it with 3 mana.
I also had a case where I was on three lands with Empath and Food Chain on the board. His 3 cmc let me cast a Griffin and win with the Vela I just tutored for on the spot (I had a griffin in exile through FoW).
Once I embraced Empath over Hydra I also came to the conclusion to use Vela over Tyrant. Two reasons:
1. Vela is 6 cmc versus 8 cmc and I have hard cast her once! Better than the never (ever) from Tyrant.
2. Vela wins on your turn when you combo. No need to fear a lightning bolt when you are at 3 or less or a TNN on board.
Vela and Tyrant are weak to the same card - Swords to Plowshares. They both dodge the other big removal threats: Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay.
But you say you can respond with any instant to save Tyrant! That's true, but that means you have to have mana open (Griffin won't get it for you) and have a stray Brainstorm or Abrupt Decay ready to cast. Typically you will not have those cards in hand as they are essential to use to stall the game or build your hand. So I don't really buy that advantage either.
I will concede Tyrant is much better vs Show And Tell, but he is still just one card - and that is just one deck. I also concede the difference between Vela and Tyrant is not nearly as big as the difference between Empath and Hydra.
After playing quite a few games with both versions, I 100% agree that the Shardless Agent/Fierce Empath version is much much better. Shardless Agent just feels way too powerful in the deck not to be playing, and Fierce Empath being able to search up Tombstalker when you haven't assembled the combo is MILES better than casting a Genesis Hydra for 2-4. Decks like Shardless BUG and BUG Delver can have a lot of trouble dealing with Tombstalker, especially when it has an Empath to protect it from Liliana of the Veil. It makes racing very easy with a Griffin or two, and overall is a much stronger backup plan than what Hydra provides. I haven't tried Tasigur, the Golden Fang yet, but I really like the flying and immunity to Karakas provided by Tombstalker. I could potentially try running both, but I'm not sure where I would fit it.
I played my first daily event with the deck tonight, and went 3-1. I played against:
Jund NicShift (2-1)
BUG Delver (2-1)
Grixis Midrange (1-2)
Legend Miracles (2-1)
I've been playing in various 2 mans and stuff, but this was my first actual event. The deck felt super solid, although I kind of want to add a 21st land or a 5th mana dork because the easiest way for me to lose in fair matchups is to get bottlenecked with mana denial.
I have been playing the following list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Vela the Night-Clad
1 Tombstalker
Instants (11):
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
Sorceries (5):
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Ponder
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (20):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
One of the basics should be a Misty Rainforest, but I haven't picked one up yet. The sideboard is almost certainly wrong, as it was based on a combination of a bunch of different lists and what I happened to have.
Impressed:
Thoughtseize: Our combo matchup isn't great, so obviously this was fantastic.
Relic of Progenitus: I really really like this card against Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, as it pulls some pretty awesome double duty. It obviously hinders their Tarmogoyfs and Deathrites, but it also has the hidden mode of going super grindy mode by recurring Griffins repeatedly when you don't have the combo.
Abrupt Decay: Some matchups you want the fourth.
Engineered Plague: Definitely relevant in enough matchups between Thopter/Sword, Elves, Goblins, and Monastery Mentor (who has been growing in popularity recently).
Not Particularly Impressed:
Obstinate Baloth: I wasn't crazy about this card. Even if you manage to "get" your BUG opponent when they plus Liliana, it still just gets outclassed by Tarmogoyf anyway.
Thorn of Amethyst: While sweet against jank like Belcher, it also slows me down quite a bit as I try to dig for more disruption. Storm can generally answer it, and I can't play through it enough to bring it in against cantrip-heavy fair decks (where my mana is under attack anyways). If I played an extra land/dork, I might be more interested.
The rest were all fine role-players that I brought in every now and then.
Some cards I want to try:
Disfigure: Cheap interaction is sweet, especially against Delver decks where I want to lower my curve down a little in the face of their mana denial.
Carpet of Flowers: This card seems sweet. We generate enough value where we will usually have an outlet to use this on, and the decks where our mana is being restricted are generally blue as well! Would definitely want the Tasigur if I were boarding this.
Misty Rainforest: I really like being able to be flexible with my land count between games. This might be a better solution than adding it to the main, as then I can bring it in against faster disruptive decks and/or on the play, while leaving it out against slow decks where drawing gas is more essential or my dorks are more likely to live.
What do other people generally end up boarding out? I usually look at Baleful Strix/Abrupt Decay against unfair decks that don't care about them, Force of Will against grindy fair decks, and in general also look at the 2nd Ponder and 2nd Fierce Empath (and potentially one of the targets as well) when I can't find other cuts.
BUG Food Chain - obviously there are minor variations in terms of card selection here (DTT vs. Ponder, Fierce Empath vs. Genesis Hydra) but in general you are looking at either the Jesper Holm or Jeffrey Chen version, which is the closest to having a "stock list" as we have at the present. These lists run the combo core + the black goodstuff with DRS and Baleful Strix.
UG Food Chain - this is the old version that runs stuff like Aethersnipe and tutor creatures (Raven Familiar, Court Hussar) to dig for the combo.
bRUG Cascade Chain - I've only found one list like this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14477&iddeck=106947) but it seems pretty hilarious. It doesn't really care about the combo per se and just goes nuts with cascade effects (Shardless Agent, Bloodbraid Elf). It looks like you out-CA your opponent and win either by swarming the board with creatures or by cascading into a Food Chain and comboing into your Griffins from there. There's also a combo kill-con with the enchantment god.
My humble suggestion - Bant Chain. I haven't seen any decks like this, but Bant is my favorite color scheme and I'd be intrigued to make a Bant version of Food Chain work. In terms of what you get from white, you get your removal still (Swords to Plowshares instead of Abrupt Decay) and an intriguing tutor effect to ensure the combo(Enlightened Tutor) all while having a stable mana base by being able to use my favorite mana dork (Noble Hierarch). Having the white splash also gives you access to powerful SB cards, namely Rest in Piece.
What do you guys consider as pros and cons of each variant? Would you like to see me list out my proposed Bant Chain list?
As it stands though it plays no removal which I don't like. Maybe adding lightning bolt would help there? I'd like to see if it can put up some results.
Post up the Bant list. Personally I don't like the card disadvantage that is Enlightened Tutor. Rest in Peace sounds pretty good since dead Griffins will be immediately castable without any extra work of exiling your graveyard. Working in the RIP + Energy Field combo would certainly give you time to get your win combo - I assume Tyrant in a Bant list.
Creatures (18)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Fierce Empath
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Misthollow Griffin
Noncreature Spells (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
Lands (21)
Sideboard: RIP+Energy Field; a 4th StP; a 4th Tutor; whatever else you want to put in there (O-Ring, more counters, etc.).
The immediate challenges with constructing this list are figuring out the creature package and also figuring out how to fit in all the "goodstuff.dec" spells. Creature-wise, I don't know what the correct number of Wall of Blossoms would be (if any). 2x Cliques can either be MB or SB depending on room. I prefer Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra, but I don't know if having Tidespout + Emrakul as tutor targets makes sense (they are both game-enders in a similar way - the only different being Emrakul protects you against Painters and the like).
Spell-wise, I would like to have 4 StP in the deck but I haven't found room for it yet. I don't like running fewer than 21 lands, which is unlike the recent postings that have 20 or even 19 lands; that feels far too light for my personal taste.
On an unrelated note, I recently upped my BUG Chain version to 22 lands (3 basics, 7 o'duals, 12 fetches) and the deck feels FAR more robust to land/mana/resource denial. I think I will continue with the 22 land version for now to confirm that is the case. The deck has had better success with 22 lands in playtesting (against Infect and Maverick).
At some point I would like to playtest a Cascade Chain version just because it seems so trolly.
DRS > Noble Hierarch
Abrupt Decay > StP
Baleful Strix > Wall of Blossoms
Of course each of those are not strictly better and would depend on matchups but in general I think it to be the case.
I also don't know why you'd go with Fierce Empath over Genesis Hydra if you are not playing any Delve creatures.
I think the 'stock' list with a white splash off a fetchland would be better if you really want Enlightened Tutor. Personally I don't think Food Chain does enough to have to tutor. It is already bad in multiples.
Creatures (16)
4x DRS
4x Baleful Strix
2x Fierce Empath
1x Tombstalker
1x Tidespout Tyrant
4x Misthollow Griffin
Spells (22)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Food Chain
3x Thoughtseize
1x Ponder
22 Lands
3 basics, 12 fetches, 7 duals
Sideboard - in progress. For now playtesting off of the Holm/Chen SB's. My prior MB Cliques are now SB.
My changes:
-As I alluded to in a prior post, 22 lands has made a notable difference. Running 12 fetches/22 lands fuels your DRS, delve mechanics, and increases your chances of actually hitting 3-5 lands in play consistently so you can play out your stuff.
-Probably the biggest change: Thoughtseize MB. It has been all kinds of wonderful. I've always enjoyed TS and seem to draw it in my opening hand at a mindbogglingly good rate, but in a deck that combos out (on average) 1-2 turns slower than other Legacy combo decks, it makes a huge difference. Not only does it slow your opponent down and give information (e.g., "Do they have a way to stop my combo?"), it shores up this deck's biggest weakness: lack of T1 play. Obviously it is always nice to play a DRS T1 to have 3 mana the following turn, but what happens if you don't have a DRS in your opening hand? Running TS mainboard essentially doubles the chance you have of having an impactful T1 play. I have debating dropping the 1-of Ponder and putting in a 4th TS mainboard, but for now I am happy with the 3/1 split.
-I remain a staunch proponent of the Fierce Empath tutor package route of: 2x Empath, 1x Tombstalker, 1x Tidespout. Tombstalker is your "fair game" winner and Tidespout is your combo winner. Perhaps I've played far too many matches with my silver bullet Maverick deck, but to me the tutor effect of Empath is more reliable than Genesis Hydra (which in turn relies on another card, Food Chain).
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/deck-of-the-day-legacy-food-chain/
TL;DR crowd
NEVILSHUTE 5-0 MTGO
1 x Forest
2 x Island
2 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Swamp
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Baleful Strix
4 x Deathrite Shaman
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 x Fierce Empath
2 x Gurmag Angler
4 x Misthollow Griffin
3 x Shardless Agent
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
4 x Food Chain
1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Flusterstorm
2 x Golgari Charm
2 x Leyline of the Void
1 x Null Rod
1 x Obstinate Baloth
1 x Sower of Temptation
3 x Thoughtseize
1 x Toxic Deluge
1 x Vendilion Clique
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
Another link to some recent successful lists.
http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=368&meta=39&f=LE
Cool Win #1
I had everything in place to go off except a Misthollow Griffin, my opponent attacks me with an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and hands me a Misthollow Griffin.
Cool Win #2
I was at one life after being hit by a flipped Delver of Secrets with my board being Deathrite Shaman, Food Chain and 6 lands. My opponent had 2 cards in hand and I had one card in hand which was Fierce Empath. I draw Misthollow Griffin and cast it which gets countered by Force of Will. I then use my Deathrite Shaman to exile it. Sac Deathrite Shaman to Food Chain and use my last land to cast Fierce Empath to get Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Sac Fierce Empath to Food Chain to cast Misthollow Griffin from exile and then go off.
Looking at online lists, I have seen a lot of players play with a land count ranging from 17-20. Is there a general consensus players have reached on the mana base? I assume if you are playing 3 or 4 Ponders you would want to play less lands. Right now I am on the 8 cantrips (11 if counting Manipulate Fate), 18 land side of things and I have seemed to be enjoying it. More practice will determine my conclusion. I am ecstatic to find a deck I thoroughly enjoy the play style of.
What do you guys think?
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
for example a SCG event last week: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111739
Seems incongruous not to work on it more....
Here's what I'm running at fnm tomorrow:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Scourge
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Maga, Traitor to Mortals
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Manipulate Fate
1 Misdirection
1 Sylvan Library
1 Perplex
1 Dimir Machinations
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Misdirection
1 Chill
1 Submerge
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Fatal Push
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
Nota Bene:
the Flooded Strand is because I ain't got another Misty.
The 'board is probably a mess, but at least has answers to lots of things....
Although I'm concerned about burn. Ideas??
The only original tech is the perplex and the dimir machinations. Their hard-cast effects are niche but sometimes come in handy. But the ability to tutor for cmc 3 is key because I can get any piece for the combo: food chain, eternal scourge or maga, traitor to mortals.
Getting the combo turn 4ish is not hard. But what's really interesting is the games where it just turns into grinding or beating with 3/3 quasi-vigilant/indestructible griffins. It can feel Delveresque!
Interested in feedback. Thanks
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists.
Viva L'Assemblage!
Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver
Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress
60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain
UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)
Went 2-1-1 for $15 store credit
Rd 1 vs Death and Taxes. Draw 1-1
Game one scrabbled to find food chain, eternal scourge and maga, traitor to mortals.
Game two I had the pieces assembled but as soon as I started to go off he Aether Vialed in a Phyrexian Revoker and turned off my food chain.
He Got Sword of Fire and Ice on his Serra Avenger, with double Mother of Runes, so all my Strix and Griffin chumping couldn't last long enough for me to kill his Revoker. I Abrupt Decayed it once but he had untapped Mom to protect it....
Rd 2 vs Lands. Lose 1-2.
Game one got the combo and he scooped to Fierce Empath without even needing to see Emrakul....
Game two I countered both of his Crop Rotations, but he Gambled and assembled the Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths.
Game three I was beating with 3/3 flyers, and even when he cracked his combo again for Marit Lage I was able to chump for a minute. But not long enough.
Rd 3 vs Miracles. Win 2-1.
Game one we both countered stuff for a while, me getting a SDTop and a Counterbalance, but then he got another Top and miracled an Entreat the Angels to make four 4/4s and win.
Game 2. Post sideboard was better. I got back to back Hymns on turn 2 and 3, which gave me room to get my combo.
Game 3 was similar as I resolved a Hymn, then we both stalled out a little. He cast at least four Brainstorm/Ponders, and was digging and topping and he could never find his pieces. But he had countermagic in hand. So instead of running my Food Chain into it, I just used my Deathrite Shamans to drain him out.
Rd. 4 vs. Shared Fate brew. Win 2-0.
Both games he resolved his eponymous card (go ahead and click on it), and we did the weird use-each-other's-deck business.
But I'd already exiled Griffins, so I cast those and beat down.
All in all, good fun. Pretty fragile deck. People were saying Aluren is easier to pull off. But I don't have any Alurens, and it costs four anyhow....
Plus, and this might be the main point here, I get to cast arguably to two very best creatures ever in the game: Emrakul and Deathrite Shaman. Think about that. So. Fun.
The Steamflogged
Human Rigger Rebels
Resisting The Tyranny of the Anti-Contraptionists.
Viva L'Assemblage!
Legacy--UGBFood Chain; UFish; UBRG Delver
Commander--UB Sygg, River Cutthroat; W Isamaru, H.O.K.WRG Naya grouphug Enchantress
60 Card Singleton -- WB value drain
UN- -- W Weenie (Wordmail on Knight of the Hokey Pokey is good beats)