Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
This is my Decklist that I used in the tournament. If you guys have any questions on why I included what I did, or why I dont have this or that, just ask. The tournament was really fun and my deck treated me really well. I went into round 4 with no game losses, 2-0 everything, which let me double draw into top 8.
Round 1: Reanimator
This wasn't even really a match. Game one he mulls to 5 and then for the sake of not going down to 4, keeps a no land hand and try's to draw to 8 to discard a fatty into the yard. Of course this takes too many turns and he's dead before anything can happen.
Game 2: -4 Spellskite -1 Sundering Titan, +4 Tormod's Crypt +1 Spine of Ish Sah
I've had this deck for a while but I'm still not comfortable with sideboarding, it's one of the most difficult things to do correctly in magic in my opinion. I'm not sure if Sundering Titan is what I should have taken out, but it did not end up being a problem. I land a turn 1 Tormod's crypt and he never plays anything into the yard to bait it's activation out, so I assume he boarded into the Show and Tell package, which didn't make much sense to me. After a couple dazes and FoW I landed a Forgemaster and tutored up fatty and he scooped, no reanimation or Show and Tell. It turns out he had 2 show and tells in hand, but no fatty to play. I felt bad for the easy win, but took it anyway.
Round 2: G/W Maverick (one of my worst matchups)
After this round I found out that he is not playing a full playset of Qasali Pridemage which is probably why I was able to win. Game 1:
I won the die roll and mull down to 5, but it is a decent 5. I land a chalice at 1 and pass. He play's a land and passes back. I drop and land and a set of lightning greaves. He plays a land, and drops a Stoneforge Mystic, which searches up a Sword of Light and Shadow, probably to recur Qasali if he ever used them. My turn 3 is a Lodestone Golem, and I notice that he misses a land drop on his turn 3 making my Golem even more potent. I top deck a forgemaster, greaves it up and search out a Sundering Titan destroying his plains and Savannah and he activates Stoneforge in response. I end my turn and he scoops seeing another turn without a land.
Game 2: -3 Voltaic Key +3 phyrexian revoker
I take out the key's here because I am certain his board is just adding in +4 path to exile, and maybe 2-3 Krosan grip. With 8 1 cc exile effects my chalice are going to be on 1 whenever I get them, and I don't want dead draws with key. The game goes pretty normal this time, I mull to 6 and he does as well. He drops a Mother of Runes, and passes, and I respond with a chalice at 1. Turn 2 he gets a Qusali and I get a Spellskite to eat it and protect my Chalice. I end up dropping a metalworker and hard casting a Blightsteel which he cannot deal with. I was really lucky to get a chalice at 1 both games so early and have it protect my metalworkers. I think they all survived, which almost never happens, especially against G/W.
Round 3: TES
I have a really good matchup against TES after I board, but game 1 depends on how fast he is, and if I can get my chalice down. I win the die roll and have a hand with a really quick chalice and metal worker into forgemaster or Lodestone. which is exactly what I need. This is really one of the most interesting games I've played. At the time he tries to go off, he had Burning Wished for a Shattering Spree to kill off my chalice, a Lodestone Golem, and my metalworker. so all I had was a Spellskite on board as well as a Platinum Angel that I had fetched off of a Forgemaster Activation. He combo's off into an Ad Nauseum which nets him a crazy amount of mana and a burning wish, which he uses to grab Ill Gotten Gains to grab his Shattering Spree back and cast it with 10 replications, all aimed at my Platinum Angel. I pay life down to 2 with Spellskite to eat 9 of the copies and tap my Seat of Synod to eat the last one, leaving the angel alive and he scoops. I guess even If he did kill the angel he would have no hand to win with, but it was still a fun match. He really wanted to kill that angel, lol. When I think about it, that spellskite was the MVP there, if he didn't have to play around that then the angel would have been dead and he could have easily killed me. His storm count was through the roof, and he had PLENTY of mana.
Game 2: -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Steel Helkite, -1 Myr Battlesphere, -1 Duplicant, -1 Blightsteel Colossus (mistake), -3 Voltaic key, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, +2 Witchbane Orb, +3 Trinisphere, +1 Mindslaver, +3 Phyrexian Revoker. I keep a fast hand, but one with little hate or forgemaster. He starts by cantriping and I land a turn 1 chalice. He goes off on turn 2 and nets 14+ goblins from empty the warrens and kills my chalice with shattering spree. I think to myself, well I have 2 turns to draw a forgemaster or I'm dead. 1st turn I draw a lightning greaves and he swings at me bringing me down to 3 life. I then topdeck a forgemaster, tap my metal worker for exactly 6 mana, +1 one from my land to play it and the graves from last turn, and I see that he is tapped out. I think to myself "oh I'll just grab Blightsteel and kill him...(borded him out). ok then I'll grab Steel Hellkite and pernicious deed the tokens (borded that out too). I have to admit, I was not expecting him to try and go empty the warrens, so I thought if he did combo out, I would be dead by the end of it, So fatties really didn't mean anything and getting a trinisphere would mean more. I ended up grabbing my trusty Platinum Angel and put greaves on it, to which he said he had no answer and scooped.
Like I said, after that I was in 1st place, so I just drew my next 2 rounds into top 8. In round 1 of top 8 I faced the same reanimator player from the 1st round, only this time, he got really good hands (turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis with force backup and daze backup) both games, with me not drawing any hate game 2, and mulling to 5 into a hand that was too slow game 1. I'm not trying to sound like he didn't deserve to win. He was a good player and I probably made some mistakes somewhere. So I was out there, but it was enough to get me 5th. A good friend of mine made 9th place which got him a Plateau (prizes went to tenth place, 1 for each duel land) so I felt really good about how the day went. I realize that my deck treated me REALLY well, in that I top decked everything I needed, but I feel like in order to play these decks without brainstorm, you need a little bit of luck =) If you guys have any questions feel free to ask and I'll try and answer them as best I can. I didn't take notes during the tournament, so most of this is from memory and may not be 100% accurate, but it's close.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
Thanks for the report! I have a few questions for you:
-How are the 4x Spellskites? I know you didn't see much control, but that in addition to 4x Chalices and 2x Greaves is a lot of protection. Is it necessary or is it just style? I've always felt UWx control was a terrible matchup. Do these numbers remedy that?
-Are the Witchbane Orbs necessary? I imagine if a combo player plays Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild the Witchbane does nothing anyway? I've always played it to where I would want to out-sphere them to prevent the Rebuild.
-You replaced Moxen with land. Was this a preference or did you not have access to them? With only four blue sources, did you ever find yourself being unable to cast your Thoughtcast?
-How often did you recur an artifact with Academy Ruins? I'm guessing that is just a filler land and is only uses its ability in rare scenarios?
Considering my first and third bullets, your list seems to play it very safe, and apparently it works! I just hate having unplayable Keys with Chalices out.
I haven't seen many Maverick lists run 4x Pridemages. That deck crams way too much utility to fit in that many artifact hate cards.
Either way, congratulations on the finish. Way to represent!
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I just goldfished this deck a bit, and I've got to say that it's very fun to play. I love the synergy of Voltaic Key and Sensei's Diving Top. I tested out a red version, but Thoughtcast seems pretty good in this deck too.
Can anyone tell me when Steel Hellkite would be tutored for? Most of the time, I don't really see any reason to grab this. Spine of Ish Sah seems better for removing permanents, and if I've got Greaves then I'll just want to go for the kill anyway.
Steel Hellkite is adept at killing token armies, but can also provide a way to remove untargetable permanents as his ability doesn't target. Additionally, he's a mana sink for metalworker, becoming very lethal very quickly.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Thanks for the report! I have a few questions for you:
-How are the 4x Spellskites? I know you didn't see much control, but that in addition to 4x Chalices and 2x Greaves is a lot of protection. Is it necessary or is it just style? I've always felt UWx control was a terrible matchup. Do these numbers remedy that?
I did really like the 4 spellskites. They were borded out in some match ups like reanimator but they were almost always relevant. I feel that with the new U/W decks that run snapcaster mage he is very necessary, they have 4 swords to plowshares main, with the ability to reccur all of them, as well as probably paths in the board, he is a very useful little guy. As for the UWx matchup, yes it is pretty bad, but also yes Spellskite helps the matchup. I tested before the tournament, playing 20 games against a UW stoneforge I had above a %60 win, and after board it went up to %80. Those are probably not extremely accurate numbers, as 80 more games would needed to be played to make it more reliable, but it gives you a rough idea as to how much he helps.
-Are the Witchbane Orbs necessary? I imagine if a combo player plays Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild the Witchbane does nothing anyway? I've always played it to where I would want to out-sphere them to prevent the Rebuild.
No, the witchbane orbs are not necessary. I need to find something to replace them with. Really this meta is known for having a lot of combo players, and I was expecting to see A BUNCH of combo, but there was only 1 there, so they were really dead. Ari Lax was playing a U/W stoneforge list instead of his U/B storm, which was really surprising to me. I was pretty lucky that my opponent only had Shattering Spree in the board and not something like meltdown.
-You replaced Moxen with land. Was this a preference or did you not have access to them? With only four blue sources, did you ever find yourself being unable to cast your Thoughtcast?
Replacing the Moxen with land was just something I wanted to try for a while, and it did fine in testing. I don't get 1st turn metalworkers almost ever, but that is not what I want my deck to be doing on turn 1. Really I want my chalice or a Spellskite down as protection on turn 1, and then I follow with something important. But I won't usually send something important like a metalworker out unless I do have that initial protection, and the speed 1st turn is not needed for that, just a Sol land is. By taking out the moxen I was able to fit in the Spellskites which like I said above, were awesome. Also, if you look at my list, I wasn't running thoughtcast. This is also something new I was trying out. It allowed me to fit in a lot more threats, as well as the voltaic keys. The deck may still need some tweaking but this is the second 5th place finish it has gotten me in the past month in fairly large tournaments, the first being an underground sea tournament where I lost to G/W maverick in the final round (there was no cut to top 8, it was wierd) playing 4 Qsali main as well as 4 GSZ to find them.
-How often did you recur an artifact with Academy Ruins? I'm guessing that is just a filler land and is only uses its ability in rare scenarios?
It helped me in a game once, in the matchup against G/W i started reccuring a Wurmcoil engine, and he had scooped before it was ever used, knowing I could just keep doing it. It is just a once in a while thing, but when I do use it, it is very powerful. It also allows for mindslaver locks out of the board. It has never hurt me otherwise, so keeping it in for the off chance I get it and a blue source is fine.
Considering my first and third bullets, your list seems to play it very safe, and apparently it works! I just hate having unplayable Keys with Chalices out.
I haven't seen many Maverick lists run 4x Pridemages. That deck crams way too much utility to fit in that many artifact hate cards.
Either way, congratulations on the finish. Way to represent!
Yes the deck tries to play very safe, which is what I think we need to be doing in the current meta. Maybe when there are a couple less Swords to Plowshares going around and a little less G/W maverick we can go back, but I really feel all the protection I had was necessary. And Thanks!
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
This is valuable information to me. I appreciate this, MoT_Pestilence! I have everything to make the changes except for Spellskites 3-4. I thought I was done acquiring the cards...
@gereffi: Steel Hellkite blocks Delver and kills untapped ones. I've seen many scenarios where I would hit multiple permanents. Tapped your Vendilion Clique with a SoFF equipped? I'll beat in, thank you. This doesn't mean Spine is not good either. Currently, I run one of each main deck.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I still think a couple changes can be made here and there, and I'm going to play with the numbers a little more. I got really lucky in the tournament and I want to reduce the amount that luck is involved. I might drop Voltaic keys for something else, maybe even the mox diamonds again. I feel like I should try out all possibilities. Maybe I drop the keys for 3 Trinisphere main and go for even more protection. I don't know, we will see.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
I took a look at the MUD thread under "Developing". Fropper did very well in a large tournament with a less flashy but what seems like a more stable list. The deck has no Forgemasters, and runs Karn, All is Dust, and Revoker main deck. Is there a "better" deck between the two? Cursed Totem coming from the board is really good, and with no Forgemasters to neutralize, it becomes a war of who drops the bigger creatures (you). What do people think of this?
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I think the decks play very differently. It's more of a stompy deck, which is fine, but I don't know if you can label one as "better" than the other. They thrive in different metas. I was thinking of trying it out, but I have so much fun with forgemaster!
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
@Fropper:
After sampling a few hands with your list, I do see the appeal of this list over the combo list. I would feel far more secure taking this to a tournament. Main deck Revoker, Dynamo, and Karn really patch up the short comings of the deck. Totem from the side makes it even stronger. But you already knew that, otherwise you wouldn't be running this version.
Quoting me from the MUD Stompy thread. Just thought I'd share.
MoT_Pestilence, you are definitely right! Forgemaster is too much fun. But there's just something that feels really solid about the non-combo list.
Also, can you further explain how it's more of a "stompy" list? What would be some plays that would differ from ours, excluding the obvious card choice? This might be a really bad question, but I'm still somehow wondering if the two threads can be merged. I'm not sure under what premises two threads would merge (see: NO/Exalibur/Maverick/Aggro/Control/Countertop Bant thread). Whatever Welder/Thoughtcast/Dynamo version you're running, there still are a lot of similarities between versions.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Quoting me from the MUD Stompy thread. Just thought I'd share.
MoT_Pestilence, you are definitely right! Forgemaster is too much fun. But there's just something that feels really solid about the non-combo list.
Also, can you further explain how it's more of a "stompy" list? What would be some plays that would differ from ours, excluding the obvious card choice? This might be a really bad question, but I'm still somehow wondering if the two threads can be merged. I'm not sure under what premises two threads would merge (see: NO/Exalibur/Maverick/Aggro/Control/Countertop Bant thread). Whatever Welder/Thoughtcast/Dynamo version you're running, there still are a lot of similarities between versions.
If we can't merge, no big!
"stompy" decks strive for a chalice, trini and often moon affect to soft lock an opponent while they ramp fatties into play and put them on a fast clock before they can stabalize. forgemaster combo simply tries to cheat fatties into play as fast as possible and force the oppoenent totry and deal with them. thats the basic gist of it. if it plays more like dragon stompy than a toolbox combo list then it is a stompy deck.
You added crucible, but took out Wasteland. Why? Wasteland allows you to really abuse crucible, which could also be good with Ghost Quarter, or Buried Ruin for long games.
Why Thousand year Elixir over more lightning greaves? I would think having one less mana cost and protecting metalworker and welder with shroud, plus giving hasted beats with our fatties would make up for the untap ability and not needing to equip.
Really, the thing I wish I had more of in this list are shuffle effects. Top and Brainstorm are great, and help to provide some of the consistency that this archetype lacks. I won't count Forgemaster as a shuffle effect, as that will usually just win the game, but the 6 I do have (2 Transmutes and 4 Fetches) seem to be a bit too few. Not sure how I can add more though without compromising the manabase in some way. There are some local tournaments coming soon, so hopefully I'll have some results to post.
@Alex Holland:
Rishadan Ports replace the artifact lands in mono-brown MUD lists sometimes. I don't think protects much like Spellskite, as if you are Port-ing them on their upkeep they can always tap for mana in response, and still remove your guy. Spellskite eats a removal spell, and often times your opponent wouldn't want to cast removal until they have two in hand. If mana screw is the plan, play Sundering Titan and Trinisphere or something.
I do agree with you with the Brainstorm. This deck does not run fetch lands, or instants we need to draw into. Often times, Thoughtcast will cost you U or 1U, and it doesn't get countered by a Chalice on one. I think it is very good.
@TlbWars:
Tezz-Affinity drops a lot of tiny creatures fast. It wins by striking quickly with Memnites, Frogmites, and Signal Pests and activating an ultimate on Tezz 2.0. MUD focuses on ramping up with cards like Metalworker and Grim Monolith. It doesn't drop a creature till turn two or three, but when it does it's huge.
Chalice: I feel like this should be maindeck in the current meta. Too many Bolts and STPs, and it's worse with Snapcasters all over the place.
Moxen: Replacing these with lands might make the deck slow, but it does make it more reliable. Still fiddling with the numbers myself.
Staff: I love this card too much. I actually tutor it up quite often with Forgemaster. It has won me plenty of games out of the blue.
Karn: This is a card I'm eager to try, but I don't currently own any. It could help with some difficult match ups.
Thousand Year Elixer: I think being able to attack is quite important sometimes. Low on life, your opponent just attacked last turn, and Wurmcoil in hand? Yes.
Crucible: Waste-lock does not need to happen in this deck. Stomp out and win, you don't want to get too Stax-y. If you're up by Lodestones, you want to drop more guys before they recover. I think if you need additional mana Thran Dynamo might not be bad.
Just some of my opinions. I can very well be inaccurate on some of my justifications, so if anyone has experiences that suggest otherwise, please let me know!
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
I am trying a 1 of Tower of the Magistrate in my deck to help against the U/W Stoneforge decks. Also, I think Faithless looting will be very interesting. You most certainly cannot run it with Chalice also, but who knows, maybe the meta will change by then. It allows you to run red for welders, and still have the draw that splashing blue would get you, without actually having to do it. the discard also adds fuel for welder. Should very very fun to try out.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
It always depends on who you are playing against.
...
Let's face reality: canadian threshold doesnt have ANY answer to wurmcoil so why bothering stuffing cards that dont improve our strategy?
The other point against Maverik is the advantage that welder provides just by sittin on the field and saying hello to the opponent on turn one. I'm honestly happy if a stp goes there since he has THREE in the deck now and if it's a pte i just won a land for free.
Talking abt batterskull: yes, it's a 4/4 lifelink. The opponent will take 4 lives... so? the germ always die and if he has so many lands down and a number of cards in his hand higher than 2 we are already loosing...
Unless you're playing against ANT, Chalice is always better. And you're right, we're not trying to better our match up against Thresh, but we are trying to help our game against other decks. It shuts off many Snapcaster decks, as they'll be flashing either Brainstorms, STPs, Bolts, or Ponders. Thresh just happens to have a low curve that Chalice can stop.
Welder poses no threat on turn one. Playing Welder turn one also closes the opportunity off for a Sol-land opener. Though situational, this is bad because you need a threat in play as well as in the yard for Welder to be effective. You would be giving a chance for your opponent to assemble while you delay yourself. Welder is barely active at turn four with my experience. Perhaps I'm playing it wrong, but I don't like making this sort of investment.
Regarding Batterskull. Stoneblade plays fliers. Clique, Spellstutter, and sometimes Bitterblossom tokens see play. I think MoT_Pestilence is adding Tower as a low-compensation solution to the problem.
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
You don't add cards to a deck to make your good matches better. You add cards to make your bad matches better. Chalice and Spellskite help make the Maverick and U/W stoneforge matches easier on us. Trinisphere does not hurt them that much, as they can eventually just play around it. I'm not saying it's a bad card by any means, but chalice is just better for what we want to do. Also, you should not be running any basics to be able to fetch when you get hit by a Path.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
Hate to go back to square one, but can we discuss sideboard options? Here are some problem cards/strategies I have in mind:
-Null Rod. Lighting a fire underwater.
-Show and Tell. I don't care how unfair we are, they'll always be more unfair than you.
-Stoneforge Mystic. Prom queen. You see her everywhere, and she makes your life miserable.
-Thoughtsieze, Hymn. I have tested against these the least and I don't know how much these impact us. I am not currently running Goblin Welder.
-Goblin Lackey. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it sucks. I guess this comes down to who gets the better hand, so this issue could just be a situational one.
Any other problems you guys have come across? Let's discuss solutions!
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Null rod/ Stoney Silence. The only this you have here is your Sol lands. under red/blue splash I cant really think of a solution. However, that being said. I don't think they are that big of a problem, just because of how little they are run. You may see them in a weekly meta if people see you playing MUD every week, but at an SCG you should be free from these, unless you run into a Death and Taxes player or something.
Show and Tell- Never actually played this match, but I know what you mean. I would not suggest putting anything in the board for it unless you know you are actually going to see it, no one is really playing it anymore. If you have to board, Ensnaring Bridge is good, because you can set up under it, and break it with a forgemaster whenever you feel ready.
Mystic- I hate her, she is a little slow however so If you opponent is greedy and doesnt have many counters you can usually over power her. Tower of the Magistrate is pretty good, as is Phyrexian Revoker, as he can name the Jace that is usually behind that batterskull.
THoughtsieze/Hymm- I dont really have much of a problem against these, but if you are Witchbane Orb could be used, against that and combo. usually though, they discard some threats and them still cant deal with the one that you top deck. at least that has been my expirience.
Goblin lacky- Who went first? lol, really that is such a game decider with him. other than that, spellskite can block him all day.
If anyone else has some secrets please share them, but this has been my basic strategy against these cards. Really the good thing about playing an obscure deck like MUD is that people rarely devote side board slots to fighting against you, and we can take advantage of that. If we run into the 1 person actually running Null Rod we are either at a weekly event where people know what you are playing, or you are just have to suck it up really. It wont happen often enough I think for us to worry about. maybe you have a different feeling about it.
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“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.” -Sun Tzu
Decks I Play EDH RStarke of Rath chaosR UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW Legacy WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW XMUDX
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
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4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Duplicant
4 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Mindslaver
1 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
This is my Decklist that I used in the tournament. If you guys have any questions on why I included what I did, or why I dont have this or that, just ask. The tournament was really fun and my deck treated me really well. I went into round 4 with no game losses, 2-0 everything, which let me double draw into top 8.
Round 1: Reanimator
This wasn't even really a match. Game one he mulls to 5 and then for the sake of not going down to 4, keeps a no land hand and try's to draw to 8 to discard a fatty into the yard. Of course this takes too many turns and he's dead before anything can happen.
Game 2: -4 Spellskite -1 Sundering Titan, +4 Tormod's Crypt +1 Spine of Ish Sah
I've had this deck for a while but I'm still not comfortable with sideboarding, it's one of the most difficult things to do correctly in magic in my opinion. I'm not sure if Sundering Titan is what I should have taken out, but it did not end up being a problem. I land a turn 1 Tormod's crypt and he never plays anything into the yard to bait it's activation out, so I assume he boarded into the Show and Tell package, which didn't make much sense to me. After a couple dazes and FoW I landed a Forgemaster and tutored up fatty and he scooped, no reanimation or Show and Tell. It turns out he had 2 show and tells in hand, but no fatty to play. I felt bad for the easy win, but took it anyway.
Round 2: G/W Maverick (one of my worst matchups)
After this round I found out that he is not playing a full playset of Qasali Pridemage which is probably why I was able to win. Game 1:
I won the die roll and mull down to 5, but it is a decent 5. I land a chalice at 1 and pass. He play's a land and passes back. I drop and land and a set of lightning greaves. He plays a land, and drops a Stoneforge Mystic, which searches up a Sword of Light and Shadow, probably to recur Qasali if he ever used them. My turn 3 is a Lodestone Golem, and I notice that he misses a land drop on his turn 3 making my Golem even more potent. I top deck a forgemaster, greaves it up and search out a Sundering Titan destroying his plains and Savannah and he activates Stoneforge in response. I end my turn and he scoops seeing another turn without a land.
Game 2: -3 Voltaic Key +3 phyrexian revoker
I take out the key's here because I am certain his board is just adding in +4 path to exile, and maybe 2-3 Krosan grip. With 8 1 cc exile effects my chalice are going to be on 1 whenever I get them, and I don't want dead draws with key. The game goes pretty normal this time, I mull to 6 and he does as well. He drops a Mother of Runes, and passes, and I respond with a chalice at 1. Turn 2 he gets a Qusali and I get a Spellskite to eat it and protect my Chalice. I end up dropping a metalworker and hard casting a Blightsteel which he cannot deal with. I was really lucky to get a chalice at 1 both games so early and have it protect my metalworkers. I think they all survived, which almost never happens, especially against G/W.
Round 3: TES
I have a really good matchup against TES after I board, but game 1 depends on how fast he is, and if I can get my chalice down. I win the die roll and have a hand with a really quick chalice and metal worker into forgemaster or Lodestone. which is exactly what I need. This is really one of the most interesting games I've played. At the time he tries to go off, he had Burning Wished for a Shattering Spree to kill off my chalice, a Lodestone Golem, and my metalworker. so all I had was a Spellskite on board as well as a Platinum Angel that I had fetched off of a Forgemaster Activation. He combo's off into an Ad Nauseum which nets him a crazy amount of mana and a burning wish, which he uses to grab Ill Gotten Gains to grab his Shattering Spree back and cast it with 10 replications, all aimed at my Platinum Angel. I pay life down to 2 with Spellskite to eat 9 of the copies and tap my Seat of Synod to eat the last one, leaving the angel alive and he scoops. I guess even If he did kill the angel he would have no hand to win with, but it was still a fun match. He really wanted to kill that angel, lol. When I think about it, that spellskite was the MVP there, if he didn't have to play around that then the angel would have been dead and he could have easily killed me. His storm count was through the roof, and he had PLENTY of mana.
Game 2: -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Steel Helkite, -1 Myr Battlesphere, -1 Duplicant, -1 Blightsteel Colossus (mistake), -3 Voltaic key, -1 Wurmcoil Engine, +2 Witchbane Orb, +3 Trinisphere, +1 Mindslaver, +3 Phyrexian Revoker. I keep a fast hand, but one with little hate or forgemaster. He starts by cantriping and I land a turn 1 chalice. He goes off on turn 2 and nets 14+ goblins from empty the warrens and kills my chalice with shattering spree. I think to myself, well I have 2 turns to draw a forgemaster or I'm dead. 1st turn I draw a lightning greaves and he swings at me bringing me down to 3 life. I then topdeck a forgemaster, tap my metal worker for exactly 6 mana, +1 one from my land to play it and the graves from last turn, and I see that he is tapped out. I think to myself "oh I'll just grab Blightsteel and kill him...(borded him out). ok then I'll grab Steel Hellkite and pernicious deed the tokens (borded that out too). I have to admit, I was not expecting him to try and go empty the warrens, so I thought if he did combo out, I would be dead by the end of it, So fatties really didn't mean anything and getting a trinisphere would mean more. I ended up grabbing my trusty Platinum Angel and put greaves on it, to which he said he had no answer and scooped.
Like I said, after that I was in 1st place, so I just drew my next 2 rounds into top 8. In round 1 of top 8 I faced the same reanimator player from the 1st round, only this time, he got really good hands (turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis with force backup and daze backup) both games, with me not drawing any hate game 2, and mulling to 5 into a hand that was too slow game 1. I'm not trying to sound like he didn't deserve to win. He was a good player and I probably made some mistakes somewhere. So I was out there, but it was enough to get me 5th. A good friend of mine made 9th place which got him a Plateau (prizes went to tenth place, 1 for each duel land) so I felt really good about how the day went. I realize that my deck treated me REALLY well, in that I top decked everything I needed, but I feel like in order to play these decks without brainstorm, you need a little bit of luck =) If you guys have any questions feel free to ask and I'll try and answer them as best I can. I didn't take notes during the tournament, so most of this is from memory and may not be 100% accurate, but it's close.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
-How are the 4x Spellskites? I know you didn't see much control, but that in addition to 4x Chalices and 2x Greaves is a lot of protection. Is it necessary or is it just style? I've always felt UWx control was a terrible matchup. Do these numbers remedy that?
-Are the Witchbane Orbs necessary? I imagine if a combo player plays Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild the Witchbane does nothing anyway? I've always played it to where I would want to out-sphere them to prevent the Rebuild.
-You replaced Moxen with land. Was this a preference or did you not have access to them? With only four blue sources, did you ever find yourself being unable to cast your Thoughtcast?
-How often did you recur an artifact with Academy Ruins? I'm guessing that is just a filler land and is only uses its ability in rare scenarios?
Considering my first and third bullets, your list seems to play it very safe, and apparently it works! I just hate having unplayable Keys with Chalices out.
I haven't seen many Maverick lists run 4x Pridemages. That deck crams way too much utility to fit in that many artifact hate cards.
Either way, congratulations on the finish. Way to represent!
Can anyone tell me when Steel Hellkite would be tutored for? Most of the time, I don't really see any reason to grab this. Spine of Ish Sah seems better for removing permanents, and if I've got Greaves then I'll just want to go for the kill anyway.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I did really like the 4 spellskites. They were borded out in some match ups like reanimator but they were almost always relevant. I feel that with the new U/W decks that run snapcaster mage he is very necessary, they have 4 swords to plowshares main, with the ability to reccur all of them, as well as probably paths in the board, he is a very useful little guy. As for the UWx matchup, yes it is pretty bad, but also yes Spellskite helps the matchup. I tested before the tournament, playing 20 games against a UW stoneforge I had above a %60 win, and after board it went up to %80. Those are probably not extremely accurate numbers, as 80 more games would needed to be played to make it more reliable, but it gives you a rough idea as to how much he helps.
No, the witchbane orbs are not necessary. I need to find something to replace them with. Really this meta is known for having a lot of combo players, and I was expecting to see A BUNCH of combo, but there was only 1 there, so they were really dead. Ari Lax was playing a U/W stoneforge list instead of his U/B storm, which was really surprising to me. I was pretty lucky that my opponent only had Shattering Spree in the board and not something like meltdown.
Replacing the Moxen with land was just something I wanted to try for a while, and it did fine in testing. I don't get 1st turn metalworkers almost ever, but that is not what I want my deck to be doing on turn 1. Really I want my chalice or a Spellskite down as protection on turn 1, and then I follow with something important. But I won't usually send something important like a metalworker out unless I do have that initial protection, and the speed 1st turn is not needed for that, just a Sol land is. By taking out the moxen I was able to fit in the Spellskites which like I said above, were awesome. Also, if you look at my list, I wasn't running thoughtcast. This is also something new I was trying out. It allowed me to fit in a lot more threats, as well as the voltaic keys. The deck may still need some tweaking but this is the second 5th place finish it has gotten me in the past month in fairly large tournaments, the first being an underground sea tournament where I lost to G/W maverick in the final round (there was no cut to top 8, it was wierd) playing 4 Qsali main as well as 4 GSZ to find them.
It helped me in a game once, in the matchup against G/W i started reccuring a Wurmcoil engine, and he had scooped before it was ever used, knowing I could just keep doing it. It is just a once in a while thing, but when I do use it, it is very powerful. It also allows for mindslaver locks out of the board. It has never hurt me otherwise, so keeping it in for the off chance I get it and a blue source is fine.
Yes the deck tries to play very safe, which is what I think we need to be doing in the current meta. Maybe when there are a couple less Swords to Plowshares going around and a little less G/W maverick we can go back, but I really feel all the protection I had was necessary. And Thanks!
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
@gereffi: Steel Hellkite blocks Delver and kills untapped ones. I've seen many scenarios where I would hit multiple permanents. Tapped your Vendilion Clique with a SoFF equipped? I'll beat in, thank you. This doesn't mean Spine is not good either. Currently, I run one of each main deck.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Quoting me from the MUD Stompy thread. Just thought I'd share.
MoT_Pestilence, you are definitely right! Forgemaster is too much fun. But there's just something that feels really solid about the non-combo list.
Also, can you further explain how it's more of a "stompy" list? What would be some plays that would differ from ours, excluding the obvious card choice? This might be a really bad question, but I'm still somehow wondering if the two threads can be merged. I'm not sure under what premises two threads would merge (see: NO/Exalibur/Maverick/Aggro/Control/Countertop Bant thread). Whatever Welder/Thoughtcast/Dynamo version you're running, there still are a lot of similarities between versions.
If we can't merge, no big!
"stompy" decks strive for a chalice, trini and often moon affect to soft lock an opponent while they ramp fatties into play and put them on a fast clock before they can stabalize. forgemaster combo simply tries to cheat fatties into play as fast as possible and force the oppoenent totry and deal with them. thats the basic gist of it. if it plays more like dragon stompy than a toolbox combo list then it is a stompy deck.
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You added crucible, but took out Wasteland. Why? Wasteland allows you to really abuse crucible, which could also be good with Ghost Quarter, or Buried Ruin for long games.
Why Thousand year Elixir over more lightning greaves? I would think having one less mana cost and protecting metalworker and welder with shroud, plus giving hasted beats with our fatties would make up for the untap ability and not needing to equip.
1x Inkwell Leviathan
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Staff of Domination
4x Grim Monolith
4x Voltaic Key
2x Mox Diamond
3x Mox Opal
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Transmute Artifact
1x Karn Liberated
1x Academy Ruins
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Seat of the Synod
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Chalice of the Void
2x All is Dust
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Really, the thing I wish I had more of in this list are shuffle effects. Top and Brainstorm are great, and help to provide some of the consistency that this archetype lacks. I won't count Forgemaster as a shuffle effect, as that will usually just win the game, but the 6 I do have (2 Transmutes and 4 Fetches) seem to be a bit too few. Not sure how I can add more though without compromising the manabase in some way. There are some local tournaments coming soon, so hopefully I'll have some results to post.
Thx
I'm not sure about the sideboard...
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
CREATURES
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Opal
3 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Trinisphere
2 Duplicant
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Rishadan Ports replace the artifact lands in mono-brown MUD lists sometimes. I don't think protects much like Spellskite, as if you are Port-ing them on their upkeep they can always tap for mana in response, and still remove your guy. Spellskite eats a removal spell, and often times your opponent wouldn't want to cast removal until they have two in hand. If mana screw is the plan, play Sundering Titan and Trinisphere or something.
I do agree with you with the Brainstorm. This deck does not run fetch lands, or instants we need to draw into. Often times, Thoughtcast will cost you U or 1U, and it doesn't get countered by a Chalice on one. I think it is very good.
@TlbWars:
Tezz-Affinity drops a lot of tiny creatures fast. It wins by striking quickly with Memnites, Frogmites, and Signal Pests and activating an ultimate on Tezz 2.0. MUD focuses on ramping up with cards like Metalworker and Grim Monolith. It doesn't drop a creature till turn two or three, but when it does it's huge.
Chalice: I feel like this should be maindeck in the current meta. Too many Bolts and STPs, and it's worse with Snapcasters all over the place.
Moxen: Replacing these with lands might make the deck slow, but it does make it more reliable. Still fiddling with the numbers myself.
Staff: I love this card too much. I actually tutor it up quite often with Forgemaster. It has won me plenty of games out of the blue.
Karn: This is a card I'm eager to try, but I don't currently own any. It could help with some difficult match ups.
Thousand Year Elixer: I think being able to attack is quite important sometimes. Low on life, your opponent just attacked last turn, and Wurmcoil in hand? Yes.
Crucible: Waste-lock does not need to happen in this deck. Stomp out and win, you don't want to get too Stax-y. If you're up by Lodestones, you want to drop more guys before they recover. I think if you need additional mana Thran Dynamo might not be bad.
Just some of my opinions. I can very well be inaccurate on some of my justifications, so if anyone has experiences that suggest otherwise, please let me know!
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Unless you're playing against ANT, Chalice is always better. And you're right, we're not trying to better our match up against Thresh, but we are trying to help our game against other decks. It shuts off many Snapcaster decks, as they'll be flashing either Brainstorms, STPs, Bolts, or Ponders. Thresh just happens to have a low curve that Chalice can stop.
Welder poses no threat on turn one. Playing Welder turn one also closes the opportunity off for a Sol-land opener. Though situational, this is bad because you need a threat in play as well as in the yard for Welder to be effective. You would be giving a chance for your opponent to assemble while you delay yourself. Welder is barely active at turn four with my experience. Perhaps I'm playing it wrong, but I don't like making this sort of investment.
Regarding Batterskull. Stoneblade plays fliers. Clique, Spellstutter, and sometimes Bitterblossom tokens see play. I think MoT_Pestilence is adding Tower as a low-compensation solution to the problem.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
-Null Rod. Lighting a fire underwater.
-Show and Tell. I don't care how unfair we are, they'll always be more unfair than you.
-Stoneforge Mystic. Prom queen. You see her everywhere, and she makes your life miserable.
-Thoughtsieze, Hymn. I have tested against these the least and I don't know how much these impact us. I am not currently running Goblin Welder.
-Goblin Lackey. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it sucks. I guess this comes down to who gets the better hand, so this issue could just be a situational one.
Any other problems you guys have come across? Let's discuss solutions!
Show and Tell- Never actually played this match, but I know what you mean. I would not suggest putting anything in the board for it unless you know you are actually going to see it, no one is really playing it anymore. If you have to board, Ensnaring Bridge is good, because you can set up under it, and break it with a forgemaster whenever you feel ready.
Mystic- I hate her, she is a little slow however so If you opponent is greedy and doesnt have many counters you can usually over power her. Tower of the Magistrate is pretty good, as is Phyrexian Revoker, as he can name the Jace that is usually behind that batterskull.
THoughtsieze/Hymm- I dont really have much of a problem against these, but if you are Witchbane Orb could be used, against that and combo. usually though, they discard some threats and them still cant deal with the one that you top deck. at least that has been my expirience.
Goblin lacky- Who went first? lol, really that is such a game decider with him. other than that, spellskite can block him all day.
If anyone else has some secrets please share them, but this has been my basic strategy against these cards. Really the good thing about playing an obscure deck like MUD is that people rarely devote side board slots to fighting against you, and we can take advantage of that. If we run into the 1 person actually running Null Rod we are either at a weekly event where people know what you are playing, or you are just have to suck it up really. It wont happen often enough I think for us to worry about. maybe you have a different feeling about it.
-Sun Tzu
Decks I Play
EDH
RStarke of Rath chaosR
UBGrim Grin Zombie TribalUB
UWHanna Ship's NavigatorUW
Legacy
WMono-White Stax/ Armageddon StaxW
RWRed/White Goblin Welder StaxRW
XMUDX
Has Snapcaster Mage posed problems for anyone?