thats what i thought. will do, always wanted to try this deck out, but i got into legacy after mental misstep was printed and didnt seem like a good place to start at the time. any good tips for someone starting out in this archetype?
Practice. Alot. As long as you have a very thought-out Wishboard, you will find yourself able to overcome crazy situations and beat decks that are tough.
ok that part i can do. right now i can only really test against merfolk and stoneblade but im looking around for more players to test with, is the match up section in the primer still up to date in terms of whats good and bad for this deck/are there any decks that are really problems?
ok that part i can do. right now i can only really test against merfolk and stoneblade but im looking around for more players to test with, is the match up section in the primer still up to date in terms of whats good and bad for this deck/are there any decks that are really problems?
More or less. You'll have to wait for the OP to confirm.
I will say this, IMO my toughest matches that I've been in:
Pox - this deck is designed to keep your land count low and disrupt the Hand. It's not unwinnable, just very hard.
Solidarity - most Ironic of all, this deck is the "all instants" version of Spiral Tide. Very hard as well because it abuses everything that you do. Good news is that Solidarity is not as consistant, so it's very rare to play against.
CounterTop my be back after MM banning. From what I remember, this was kind of hard, but not unwinnable.
Team America/Rock Variants can be hard, any deck that runs Hymn to Tourach, luckily you can play around it with Meditate.
Other Combo decks are faster, but Force of Will goes a long way as an advantage. (this is definatly where practice and knowing your meta comes in handy) Since I am a storm player as well, I'm like 14-2 vs. TES/ANT/Dredge all time...
Aggro is near auto-win, Affinity can be fast though.
So to Summarize:
vs. Pox and solidarity, you need fast hand and good luck to win; merfolk slightly easier, but still rough.
vs. Post-MM Team America/Rock becomes easier; Countertop manageable.
vs. Combo Decks, mull and board carefully
vs. Control, Aggro, Aggro-control - minimal to no resistance, (burn and affinity can put you on fast clocks, just be prepared)
High Tide will be back on the stage now that Misstep is banned, and if you are gonna play without the Candelabras it is a reasonably priced deck. The meta will move back in time a few months now so you can dig for some articles and matchups. Except from that, it is a little difficult deck to play, you really have to know this deck and its interactions.
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Urza thought it a crusade. Xantcha knew it was a robbery...
I'm not replacing MM with any counterspells for now. I find all other counters lack-luster for main deck. I might even do 3 FoW main... but I'm running 1-of Intuition main. I would stay away from main-boarding Pact, as it is usually useless until your comboing off. I'll probably have 1 Flusterstorm as a wish target/post board scroll target, cause as you guys stated Spell Pierce is more versatile. I actually like spell pierce in the storm matchup as well, piercing a dark rit or chrome mox is just brutal.
Note: The TES/ANT players in my meta hate me. I'm That Guy, I FoWed an AN, then wished for echoing truth to bounce his TWO Chrome Mox in play, giving me enough time to combo out LOL... Yeah... I 1-for-4ed him
I'm glad all the Emails I sent paid off (as if they listen to most of us anyways) to WotC
No more missteps will hinder this deck on its rise once again, and as for all the comments about Team America and other disruption decks that hinder Spiral`Tide...well guess what (it's getting old folks)...those decks hinder all combo archetypes. My problem was with Mental Misstep (broken) and now find my games to be overwhelming fluid again...very liquid!
Oh this is such a good time in the format, and I'll be riding the non-Candle version into the depths as I find it to be a bit more tech and surprising.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
i'm one of the few that loved MM even while running spring tide. heh.
but getting back to the deck, i'm currently testing a random gitaxian probe over 1 ponder. i've been loving it so far although i board it out against aggro. i'm hoping to get enough testing in before a tournament on the 8th.
changes from last time:
-1 ponder, +1 gitaxian probe
-3 mental misstep, +3 spell pierce
I think Meditate should go back down to being a one-of because the format just got faster, and that extra turn will be enough for fast aggro decks to kill you.
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Vintage Workshops
Legacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
i thought the whole point of meditate was that it was fuel on combo turn. never had to actually skip that turn but im still new to the deck, am i doing this wrong?
^ Ideally yes, but during MMS-control meta, you play meditate to get a huge advantage on cards against the control decks until you can sculpt the perfect hand and go off over all kinds of protection.
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Vintage Workshops
Legacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
I feel like we want 4 preordains. I think that preordain is really really strong. It lets us dig 3 if we are looking for a specific card while at the same time it doesnt need a secondary effect in order to exclude cards we no longer want (ponder and brainstorm both need a shuffle effect or an impulse in order to gain maximum value).
I've considered the possibility of running out standstill in certain matchups. I feel like us laying down lands REALLY advances our gamestate.
I thought of standstill, but I just don't know if there is room on the board or main. Problem is it's only so usefel. Standstill could potentially come in against slower decks. E.g. drop SS on T2 then dare them to cast anything... Vial decks/and Standstill decks (Merfolk and the like) get around it. Obviously you don't bring them in vs. Those decks, but the real question: What do you drop from a pretty stuffed Sideboard to fit 3 Standstill that only works vs. certain decks. Whereas you try to build the wish board to handle a multitude of decks.
You need Bounce, Counter, and some wish targets on your Board (GY hate, extra combo pieces etc.) I just feel like it's the same reason why we don't run Defense Grid on our board.
I feel 10 cantrips are good, 12 are overkill. I used to play the full 12 but with my 3 Meditate configuration, I thought I had too many drawers. However I play 4 preordains and 2 ponder. I never had a preordain and told myself I'd rather have a ponder. So I guess it's really about sensitivity, how people feel about it.
3 and 3 seem and 4 Brainstorm seem like a great number, actually.
I haven't played much Legacy, but how good is Shrine of Piercing Vision in this deck? It costs 2 mana, and since your mission in life is to cast tons of blue spells, you might be able to crack this puppy for 10+ dig by the time you need its search power. It might be Merchant Scrolls 5-8 or...iffier.
Also, how much of an edge does Snapcaster Mage give to this deck and/or Solidarity, especially with Snap as a mini-mana engine? (I think he'll give Solidarity the larger boost, especially since he's a nonbo with Time Spiral, but...)
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It's kind of slow. I can see 1 as a wish target, but then there are better options.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Really experienced Tide players give people fits.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
More or less. You'll have to wait for the OP to confirm.
I will say this, IMO my toughest matches that I've been in:
Pox - this deck is designed to keep your land count low and disrupt the Hand. It's not unwinnable, just very hard.
Solidarity - most Ironic of all, this deck is the "all instants" version of Spiral Tide. Very hard as well because it abuses everything that you do. Good news is that Solidarity is not as consistant, so it's very rare to play against.
CounterTop my be back after MM banning. From what I remember, this was kind of hard, but not unwinnable.
Merfolk - pretty tough matchup, probably better post-MM.
Team America/Rock Variants can be hard, any deck that runs Hymn to Tourach, luckily you can play around it with Meditate.
Other Combo decks are faster, but Force of Will goes a long way as an advantage. (this is definatly where practice and knowing your meta comes in handy) Since I am a storm player as well, I'm like 14-2 vs. TES/ANT/Dredge all time...
Aggro is near auto-win, Affinity can be fast though.
So to Summarize:
vs. Pox and solidarity, you need fast hand and good luck to win; merfolk slightly easier, but still rough.
vs. Post-MM Team America/Rock becomes easier; Countertop manageable.
vs. Combo Decks, mull and board carefully
vs. Control, Aggro, Aggro-control - minimal to no resistance, (burn and affinity can put you on fast clocks, just be prepared)
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 High Tide
Draw
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Tutors
3 Cunning Wish
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Intuition
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
Protection
4 Force of Will
Other
2 Retraced Image
Land
12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Noxious revival
2 Wipe away
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pact Of Negation
Note: The TES/ANT players in my meta hate me. I'm That Guy, I FoWed an AN, then wished for echoing truth to bounce his TWO Chrome Mox in play, giving me enough time to combo out LOL... Yeah... I 1-for-4ed him
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Want List
Well, I still do. A lot of people find it to be win-more. IMO, I like it as a 5th Time Spiral effect.
That's one of those "Flex Spots". I used both Trade Routes and Mind over Matter in those slots.
My list if anyone curious:
4 High Tide
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Intuition
3 Turnabout
Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
1 Retraced Image
1 Mind Over Matter
Artifacts
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
Land
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
11 Island
WishBoard
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Brain freeze
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Spell Pierce
I've been going for Brain freeze kill first, just make sure you have enough juice to BSZ in response to 1-many Emrakul triggers.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
No more missteps will hinder this deck on its rise once again, and as for all the comments about Team America and other disruption decks that hinder Spiral`Tide...well guess what (it's getting old folks)...those decks hinder all combo archetypes. My problem was with Mental Misstep (broken) and now find my games to be overwhelming fluid again...very liquid!
Oh this is such a good time in the format, and I'll be riding the non-Candle version into the depths as I find it to be a bit more tech and surprising.
Good times,
S.M.
4x Retraced Image
4x High Tide
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Time Spiral
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Preordain
3x Cunning Wish
3x Pact of Negation
2x Turnabout
2x Palinchron
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Meditate
11x Island
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Dispel
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Pact of Negation
1x Spell Pierce
1x Wipe Away
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Brain Freeze
1x Hibernation
1x Turnabout
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Mindbreak Trap
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
but getting back to the deck, i'm currently testing a random gitaxian probe over 1 ponder. i've been loving it so far although i board it out against aggro. i'm hoping to get enough testing in before a tournament on the 8th.
changes from last time:
-1 ponder, +1 gitaxian probe
-3 mental misstep, +3 spell pierce
4 scalding tarn
14 island
Spells
1 brain freeze
1 gitaxian probe
3 retraced image
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 preordain
3 meditate
4 merchant's scroll
3 cunning wish
3 high tide
3 turnabout
4 timespiral
3 spell pierce
4 force of will
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 high tide
1 meditate
1 turnabout
3 pact of negation
1 surgical extraction
2 snap
1 rebuild
1 wipe away
1 mindbreak trap
1 ravenous trap
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I used 3MD and 1SB so I can wish for it.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
I've considered the possibility of running out standstill in certain matchups. I feel like us laying down lands REALLY advances our gamestate.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
You need Bounce, Counter, and some wish targets on your Board (GY hate, extra combo pieces etc.) I just feel like it's the same reason why we don't run Defense Grid on our board.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
3 and 3 seem and 4 Brainstorm seem like a great number, actually.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Also, how much of an edge does Snapcaster Mage give to this deck and/or Solidarity, especially with Snap as a mini-mana engine? (I think he'll give Solidarity the larger boost, especially since he's a nonbo with Time Spiral, but...)