I've been testing this template. I tend to proxy decks before building one...I'm seriously enjoying the gold fish sessions, challenging yet rewarding archetypes like this always hold my interests.
I'm currently playing the Cloud engine version seeing I only own 1 Candelabra (which is decked in a casual edh deck), and take note that I'm only running 4 fetches for base reasons you either start with the ONE fetch in hand that you want and/or draw into one within turns 2-4 when you GO off.
So here's my simple beginners lists, a mixed template from some of the best public lists you can find online.
1x Trade Routes (haven't really had the chance to abuse this card yet)
4x Merchant Scroll (I know this might sound crazy, but 3 might be the magic number...or I'm getting really lucky as always with my draws) 1x Intuition 1x Blue Sun's Zenith
You should run Meditate. The extra draw power is necessary more often than not does it save from fizzling, especially since you arent running Emakural. Trade routes is alright, but I find the extra land drop from Retraced Image is much more valuable than a single card draw mid-combo imo.
Hi! I'm kinda new player, but I'd like to know why hasn't High Tide been succesful anymore lately. Is it because the Hatfields were just so experienced and good players? I like this deck a lot, but I'm just so Spike that I want to know is it worth to make a High Tide deck.
Hi! I'm kinda new player, but I'd like to know why hasn't High Tide been succesful anymore lately. Is it because the Hatfields were just so experienced and good players? I like this deck a lot, but I'm just so Spike that I want to know is it worth to make a High Tide deck.
It Top 8's still in Europe just not alot in the USA (Europe has always been more combo centric ). This deck is very hard to pilot correctly and many people rather play easier combo decks such as hive mind.
Misstep has also scared a lot of players in the USA to stop playing the deck. The only changes I have made since misstep was replacing my retrace images with pacts since the format has slowed down. If anything with the new slower format and access to Flusterstorm to win counter wars made this deck better. People cutting forces for conditional counters don't work well against us when our key spells minus high tide is 3 mana +. I personaly Also moved one High tides to the board due to the slower format just to make room for the extra pact. You also have 7 cards to find High Tides vs 4.
To be honest I find that the sole Tutor copy of TATE is all I need, but on the topic I suppose "to each his/her own" as I really don't need to have more then that one "time" fine crack at the 4 card spell to win.
I do agree that Trade Routes is a slightly different card to play and keep an advantage online with regards to the early/mid game, I'm on the fence as I test this card.
Wish I had the other 2 candelabra's for sure, but hey right now the Cloud Engine has proven to win just the same.
You should run Meditate. The extra draw power is necessary more often than not does it save from fizzling, especially since you arent running Emakural. Trade routes is alright, but I find the extra land drop from Retraced Image is much more valuable than a single card draw mid-combo imo.
Does anyone still use Palinchron in their list? I run him as a one of just for insane mana production if I draw into him.
EDIT: S.M., in regards to your previous post, I do run Trade Routes as a one of in my Retraced Image package. I personally like it because I usually have so much mana, I don't know what to do with it. With Time Spiral it's ok if I use Retraced Image to drop a land and later pop the land back to my hand and discard it to Trade Routes to draw a card because I'll get both the Retraced Image and the land back. It also gives me something to do with all of the fetches I draw after I've already played a land the turn I'm going off.
"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Cut Ponder (1-) down to 3 and up your Turnabout(1+) count to 4..I can't image ever dropping the count on Turnabout, I feel that card is by far the most important card in the deck 2nd to High Tide itself.
The deck looks solid, I'm keeping my Freeze Target in my side board as I'm upping my Cunning Wish count to 3. I'm also going to squeeze in the Sole Meditate main (random Scroll target) and one copy in the SB for wish tricks.
I want to state that I can see why Trade Routes is broken in this archetypenow, I happened to get the chance to use the card in my last session...when you have that mana and tons of extra lands in hand...I can now see the power, solid 1 of.
I'm currently trying to get a list that handed me my mule recently, the deck didn't have FoW's and was tuned for a aggro meta, the important part of the decks scheme was in its SB...I'm still trying to get this dude on MWS to get me the list (I was playing No Elves when he rocked me)...so soon I hope.
It does make you wonder if a No Force version is possible, but again it would really have to be a strong template with a outstanding side board to pull it off...I wouldn't doubt a Spiral Tide deck if it could buy enough time to "go" off with FoW or without FoW.
Ok guys, here is my list and also my problem. I run spiral tide with no candelabras, on a non-heavily based control metagame but I still preffer to have 3 PoN into maindeck, the problem here is that I want to run 3 Cunning wish and that makes me have a 61 cards deck. Any tip?
All my major testing was with 2 wishes main, and now that I'm supporting 3 wishes (main) I can understand the drop with regards to the count on Turnabout. This would also go for the mages who cut their Meditate counts down to 3 just for handy wish board shenanigans, evil shenanigans ;).
I'm a Ponder fan bud, the card wins games...I'm not sold of Retraced Images quite yet.
I never thought about a no-FoW version, I'd probably cut the pacts and add Missteps in it's place for a aggro meta.
About -1 Ponder... I don't really see it, I was thinking about -1 Retraced image to have a 60 cards deck. Ponder is necessary, at least to me, and by far it's more necessary than the 3rd retraced.
So, talking about Turnabout, I think 3 and 1 in the wishboard is the correct count, the only case Turnabout is "broken" is when you want to go off with 3 lands: High Tide - Turnabout - Spiral, but having 4 lands, High Tide and Time Spiral is almost the same, also having it as a wish target it's "like" having 7 on maindeck.
I'm a Ponder fan bud, the card wins games...I'm not sold of Retraced Images quite yet.
I like Retraced Image. Especially with Time Spiral. Usually when my games are over, I have like 6-7 lands down on turn 3 or 4 along with an infinite storm count and infinite mana (Palinchron). I usually try to get all of my FoW in hand along with the wishes so I have 7 counters at the ready to hardcast and counter literally anything. Also, since I have the infinite mana pool, even if Flusterstorm starts getting popular in Legacy for U storm hate, I'm not too worried about it.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
I'll give them a whirl and test, I'm not going to pretend I'm a vet of this archetype...I'm simply just starting my journey with Spiral`Tide for sole reasons I need this challenge seeing its skill level is very very intense.
I could always dabble with the idea of dropping Trade Routes for a few games and toss in the Palinchron for a few "pearls".
Never the less I really enjoy reading the posts from you active members with your touches/aspects on this stellar archetype, I find this deck to be a real breath of fresh air away from No`Package Elves.
I like Retraced Image. Especially with Time Spiral. Usually when my games are over, I have like 6-7 lands down on turn 3 or 4 along with an infinite storm count and infinite mana (Palinchron). I usually try to get all of my FoW in hand along with the wishes so I have 7 counters at the ready to hardcast and counter literally anything. Also, since I have the infinite mana pool, even if Flusterstorm starts getting popular in Legacy for U storm hate, I'm not too worried about it.
Just making a "new" post with a different topic, just a heads up for the "double" bubble good Mod.
So yeah I'm about as pissed as a player can get, I absolutely HATE Mental Misstep...I don't hate main decking the Ubber counter...just facing the SoB!
Man this deck could, NO would be so much better (Candelabra's or Cloud Versions) if you didn't see every deck in Legacy packing this new damn counterspell.
I mean each plucking time you get the brass and mana to cast a Time Spiral your opponent just reshuffles and gains "that" % at sticking it to you once again. I sincerely hope I'm not the only mage who really is ticked on this topic.
Whispers of a Ban? Don't they take in consideration that when a deck (EVERY deck almost) is running a card 4 deep that it might be a problem? I hope they check the numbers as I just did and see that Mental Misstep is NOT HEALTHY for the Legacy format.
mental misstep is inconvenient but not a deal breaker for this deck like a lot of people make it out to be, especially when you run your own missteps alongside FoW main deck. it can be played around.
as for missteps getting back to their hand after a time spiral, it really doesn't matter as almost all of the time that you can resolve a time spiral after a high tide you will already win. it's just too big a refill to be hosed by the inconvenience of missteps.
my problem right now with this deck is more with discard. my meta is chuck full of BW stoneblade right now and discard really hurts. any ideas?
mental misstep is inconvenient but not a deal breaker for this deck like a lot of people make it out to be, especially when you run your own missteps alongside FoW main deck. it can be played around.
as for missteps getting back to their hand after a time spiral, it really doesn't matter as almost all of the time that you can resolve a time spiral after a high tide you will already win. it's just too big a refill to be hosed by the inconvenience of missteps.
my problem right now with this deck is more with discard. my meta is chuck full of BW stoneblade right now and discard really hurts. any ideas?
Agreed. As long as you can cast your first High Tide without your opponent Mental Misstepping the thing, you're pretty much set. As I've said in previous posts, I run the Retraced Image package due to my lack of budget for a set of Candelabra. I find my Retraced Images to be somewhat refreshing as they aren't quite as big of a target as possibly a Candelabra is in my opponent's mind. Especially if I play it off like I do run Candelabras in my deck.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Agreed. As long as you can cast your first High Tide without your opponent Mental Misstepping the thing, you're pretty much set. As I've said in previous posts, I run the Retraced Image package due to my lack of budget for a set of Candelabra. I find my Retraced Images to be somewhat refreshing as they aren't quite as big of a target as possibly a Candelabra is in my opponent's mind. Especially if I play it off like I do run Candelabras in my deck.
i run retraced image too and love it. it's a little bit of a hassle when the only lands you have in your hand together with it are fetches though. hehe
this is the list i'm going to be taking to a legacy tourney next weekend:
i run retraced image too and love it. it's a little bit of a hassle when the only lands you have in your hand together with it are fetches though. hehe
this is the list i'm going to be taking to a legacy tourney next weekend:
Wow. You have a lot of hate packed in this thing. If I might suggest a consideration, however. I would drop one Misstep (or a comparably droppable card) for Trade Routes. It's an insane card and it allows you to basically turn every one of your lands in-hand into a U for one card draw spell (including those obnoxious fetches).
In fact, in my list I'm considering dropping a Mind Over Matter in addition to having Trade Routes so that every one of the cards in my hand is a useful card regardless of the situation.
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, here's my list:
"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Wow. You have a lot of hate packed in this thing. If I might suggest a consideration, however. I would drop one Misstep (or a comparably droppable card) for Trade Routes. It's an insane card and it allows you to basically turn every one of your lands in-hand into a U for one card draw spell (including those obnoxious fetches).
In fact, in my list I'm considering dropping a Mind Over Matter in addition to having Trade Routes so that every one of the cards in my hand is a useful card regardless of the situation.
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, here's my list:
ok i'll test trade routes over 1 preordain. as of late i've been more concerned about protecting the combo though. there is a hefty amount of discard, misstep and surgical extraction in my meta right now. i'm still hoping on the surprise factor of this deck to get through i guess.
i wonder about the single emrakul you have in your sideboard. is it just purely an alternate win con? you have no way to tutor for it though.
ok i'll test trade routes over 1 preordain. as of late i've been more concerned about protecting the combo though. there is a hefty amount of discard, misstep and surgical extraction in my meta right now. i'm still hoping on the surprise factor of this deck to get through i guess.
i wonder about the single emrakul you have in your sideboard. is it just purely an alternate win con? you have no way to tutor for it though.
Actually, the one Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in my sideboard is solely for the purpose of mirror matches. This is because, when playing against another High Tide deck, they can usually just drop Brain Freeze whenever the storm count is high enough to kill me, so I side in one Emmy to ensure I cannot be infini-milled.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
what are people's opinions on moving 1 time spiral to the sideboard as a wish target? many times i've had a high tide, turnabout and wish in my hand but nothing else and was afraid that meditate might not give me enough gas to complete the combo. of course meditate not being enough has rarely happened, but i'm looking for a more sure fire way of doing things.
^You can try to be Cunning with your Cunning Wish and get your Spiral from the board, but that won't work and you'll probably get a game loss for doing it. Cunning Wish gets instants only.
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Vintage Workshops
Legacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH: Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!
Urza, Lord High Artificer
I am a little confused, Most decklists I see do not run CoT anymore. Is that due to the price, or is it due to it just not being needed? I am really just curious I came here thinking about investing in some candelabras a buddy was selling, because he decided to run his without. Should I pick them up? or do I even need them at this point? Almost every list I have seen have seen has been Candelabraless.
I am a little confused, Most decklists I see do not run CoT anymore. Is that due to the price, or is it due to it just not being needed? I am really just curious I came here thinking about investing in some candelabras a buddy was selling, because he decided to run his without. Should I pick them up? or do I even need them at this point? Almost every list I have seen have seen has been Candelabraless.
I think the main reason behind this shift to Non-Candelabra is due to the evil Mental Misstep. When you drop a $250 card only to be stopped by your opponent's $5 card, I can see how it would become extremely deflating.
That's my postulation, at least. I know my list doesn't run them simply because I do not have the budget for Candelabras, and because I like the Retraced Image package a little better.
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"It's actually quite simple, but since you've only recently begun to walk upright, it may take some time to explain."
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Candelabra is an explosive card and all but it's really just one option among many. It doesn't really make the deck much more consistent than any other option like retraced image/trade routes and it doesn't allow for any significant gains in how soon you can combo out either. It's good, just not necessary.
Gitaxian probe is a nice cantrip but it doesn't help you dig for the cards that you need which hurts the consistency of the deck.
Candelabra is an explosive card and all but it's really just one option among many. It doesn't really make the deck much more consistent than any other option like retraced image/trade routes and it doesn't allow for any significant gains in how soon you can combo out either. It's good, just not necessary.
Gitaxian probe is a nice cantrip but it doesn't help you dig for the cards that you need which hurts the consistency of the deck.
Candelabra helps in two aspects. First it does make the combo a little more consistent. It acts like turnabout 5-8. Before I was playing the Candelabra version I was always wishing I could find another turnabout. I dislike casting more then one time spiral per game as it can basically can cost you. Your 7 may be a bad draw or replenishing FoWs or MMs for your opponent. Secondly, it makes BSZ wins easier as Candelabra's can easily produce lethal mana with a turnabout and 2-3 active high tides. With show and tell decks making a good chuck of the meta brain freeze is just not worth the risk. That said a full play-set is overkill. I personally only play 3x.
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Current Legacy Decks
0USpiral Tide0U
UWU/W 'Miracle Top' Control UW
012 Post 0
Random Opponent: Playing against 12 Post Feels like trying to win in Yugioh with no super secret rares.
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You should run Meditate. The extra draw power is necessary more often than not does it save from fizzling, especially since you arent running Emakural. Trade routes is alright, but I find the extra land drop from Retraced Image is much more valuable than a single card draw mid-combo imo.
It Top 8's still in Europe just not alot in the USA (Europe has always been more combo centric ). This deck is very hard to pilot correctly and many people rather play easier combo decks such as hive mind.
Misstep has also scared a lot of players in the USA to stop playing the deck. The only changes I have made since misstep was replacing my retrace images with pacts since the format has slowed down. If anything with the new slower format and access to Flusterstorm to win counter wars made this deck better. People cutting forces for conditional counters don't work well against us when our key spells minus high tide is 3 mana +. I personaly Also moved one High tides to the board due to the slower format just to make room for the extra pact. You also have 7 cards to find High Tides vs 4.
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
3 High Tide
Draw
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Tutors
3 Cunning Wish
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
Land
12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe away
2 Flusterstorm
1 High Tide
1 Rebuild
1 Repeal
1 Noxious revival
1 Surgical Extraction
I do agree that Trade Routes is a slightly different card to play and keep an advantage online with regards to the early/mid game, I'm on the fence as I test this card.
Wish I had the other 2 candelabra's for sure, but hey right now the Cloud Engine has proven to win just the same.
S.M.
EDIT: S.M., in regards to your previous post, I do run Trade Routes as a one of in my Retraced Image package. I personally like it because I usually have so much mana, I don't know what to do with it. With Time Spiral it's ok if I use Retraced Image to drop a land and later pop the land back to my hand and discard it to Trade Routes to draw a card because I'll get both the Retraced Image and the land back. It also gives me something to do with all of the fetches I draw after I've already played a land the turn I'm going off.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
The deck looks solid, I'm keeping my Freeze Target in my side board as I'm upping my Cunning Wish count to 3. I'm also going to squeeze in the Sole Meditate main (random Scroll target) and one copy in the SB for wish tricks.
I want to state that I can see why Trade Routes is broken in this archetypenow, I happened to get the chance to use the card in my last session...when you have that mana and tons of extra lands in hand...I can now see the power, solid 1 of.
I'm currently trying to get a list that handed me my mule recently, the deck didn't have FoW's and was tuned for a aggro meta, the important part of the decks scheme was in its SB...I'm still trying to get this dude on MWS to get me the list (I was playing No Elves when he rocked me)...so soon I hope.
It does make you wonder if a No Force version is possible, but again it would really have to be a strong template with a outstanding side board to pull it off...I wouldn't doubt a Spiral Tide deck if it could buy enough time to "go" off with FoW or without FoW.
S.M.
I'm a Ponder fan bud, the card wins games...I'm not sold of Retraced Images quite yet.
S.M.
I like Retraced Image. Especially with Time Spiral. Usually when my games are over, I have like 6-7 lands down on turn 3 or 4 along with an infinite storm count and infinite mana (Palinchron). I usually try to get all of my FoW in hand along with the wishes so I have 7 counters at the ready to hardcast and counter literally anything. Also, since I have the infinite mana pool, even if Flusterstorm starts getting popular in Legacy for U storm hate, I'm not too worried about it.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
I could always dabble with the idea of dropping Trade Routes for a few games and toss in the Palinchron for a few "pearls".
Never the less I really enjoy reading the posts from you active members with your touches/aspects on this stellar archetype, I find this deck to be a real breath of fresh air away from No`Package Elves.
S.M.
So yeah I'm about as pissed as a player can get, I absolutely HATE Mental Misstep...I don't hate main decking the Ubber counter...just facing the SoB!
Man this deck could, NO would be so much better (Candelabra's or Cloud Versions) if you didn't see every deck in Legacy packing this new damn counterspell.
I mean each plucking time you get the brass and mana to cast a Time Spiral your opponent just reshuffles and gains "that" % at sticking it to you once again. I sincerely hope I'm not the only mage who really is ticked on this topic.
Whispers of a Ban? Don't they take in consideration that when a deck (EVERY deck almost) is running a card 4 deep that it might be a problem? I hope they check the numbers as I just did and see that Mental Misstep is NOT HEALTHY for the Legacy format.
S.M.
as for missteps getting back to their hand after a time spiral, it really doesn't matter as almost all of the time that you can resolve a time spiral after a high tide you will already win. it's just too big a refill to be hosed by the inconvenience of missteps.
my problem right now with this deck is more with discard. my meta is chuck full of BW stoneblade right now and discard really hurts. any ideas?
Agreed. As long as you can cast your first High Tide without your opponent Mental Misstepping the thing, you're pretty much set. As I've said in previous posts, I run the Retraced Image package due to my lack of budget for a set of Candelabra. I find my Retraced Images to be somewhat refreshing as they aren't quite as big of a target as possibly a Candelabra is in my opponent's mind. Especially if I play it off like I do run Candelabras in my deck.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
i run retraced image too and love it. it's a little bit of a hassle when the only lands you have in your hand together with it are fetches though. hehe
this is the list i'm going to be taking to a legacy tourney next weekend:
4 scalding tarn
14 island
spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain
3 retraced image
3 meditate
4 merchant's scroll
3 cunning wish
3 high tide
3 turnabout
4 time spiral
1 brain freeze
3 mental misstep
4 force of will
1 meditate
1 high tide
1 turnabout
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
3 pact of negation
1 echoing truth
2 snap
1 rebuild
1 wipe away
1 mindbreak trap
1 ravenous trap
Wow. You have a lot of hate packed in this thing. If I might suggest a consideration, however. I would drop one Misstep (or a comparably droppable card) for Trade Routes. It's an insane card and it allows you to basically turn every one of your lands in-hand into a U for one card draw spell (including those obnoxious fetches).
In fact, in my list I'm considering dropping a Mind Over Matter in addition to having Trade Routes so that every one of the cards in my hand is a useful card regardless of the situation.
EDIT: Just for the sake of clarity, here's my list:
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
13 Island
Spells:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 High Tide
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Time Spiral
4 Retraced Tides
1 Trade Routes
1 Palinchron
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wipe Away
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
2 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Pact of Negation
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
ok i'll test trade routes over 1 preordain. as of late i've been more concerned about protecting the combo though. there is a hefty amount of discard, misstep and surgical extraction in my meta right now. i'm still hoping on the surprise factor of this deck to get through i guess.
i wonder about the single emrakul you have in your sideboard. is it just purely an alternate win con? you have no way to tutor for it though.
Actually, the one Emrakul, the Aeons Torn in my sideboard is solely for the purpose of mirror matches. This is because, when playing against another High Tide deck, they can usually just drop Brain Freeze whenever the storm count is high enough to kill me, so I side in one Emmy to ensure I cannot be infini-milled.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
You should cut the one-of gitaxian probe for the 4th brainstorm because probe is a sorcery. Other than that, it looks pretty solid.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
I think the main reason behind this shift to Non-Candelabra is due to the evil Mental Misstep. When you drop a $250 card only to be stopped by your opponent's $5 card, I can see how it would become extremely deflating.
That's my postulation, at least. I know my list doesn't run them simply because I do not have the budget for Candelabras, and because I like the Retraced Image package a little better.
—Jace Beleren, to Garruk Wildspeaker
Gitaxian probe is a nice cantrip but it doesn't help you dig for the cards that you need which hurts the consistency of the deck.
Candelabra helps in two aspects. First it does make the combo a little more consistent. It acts like turnabout 5-8. Before I was playing the Candelabra version I was always wishing I could find another turnabout. I dislike casting more then one time spiral per game as it can basically can cost you. Your 7 may be a bad draw or replenishing FoWs or MMs for your opponent. Secondly, it makes BSZ wins easier as Candelabra's can easily produce lethal mana with a turnabout and 2-3 active high tides. With show and tell decks making a good chuck of the meta brain freeze is just not worth the risk. That said a full play-set is overkill. I personally only play 3x.