Magma Jet is inefficient: you're paying 1 to Scry 2 after a Shock. That said, sifting two cards is often going to net you more damage in a longer game by finding the critical third land and getting rid of later lands, dead creatures, and so on (as you pointed out). I think my math came out that Magma Jet's Scry was worth something like 1.7 damage, making it better than Incinerate but worse than Flame Rift in raw punch (albeit without self-damage). It also finds SB cards.
The card gets better the longer a given game goes. Early on, it removes any shot of winning on turn 3. But it increases the odds of winning on turn 5 or later. I no longer play it, but I used to, and I still consider it a totally valid choice.
I hear what youre saying about its inefficiency, but in practice, is it really?
I agree with you that its useless for turn 3 wins, but what could i replace it with? In order for a card to be relevant for a t3 win i think it has to do 1 of 2 things:
- 4 damage for RR or less by turn 3. (flame rift, fireblast and the 'maybes' goblin guide, vexing devil, price of progress)
- 3 damage for R. Our 4 main bolts....
If there are other cards that can fill these roles, or if im missing a way to win on t3, someone please let me know.
For a win on turn 4, magma jet is just as good as any of the cards i mentioned above, isnt it?
If the game goes into turn 5 and beyond, i find the ability to choose my draw a little to be very helpful.
Thanks for your thoughts
If there are other viable turn 3 win scenarios, id really like to hear them
Oh....this slot is where eidolon is supposed to go, isnt it?
For a win on turn 4, magma jet is just as good as any of the cards i mentioned above, isnt it?
No. And that is pretty explicit. I think Darkview looks at analysis the best way. Though 1.7 damage for the scry seems generous. I’d be interested in seeing how he came to that figure. Either way, that “damage” is delayed.
In burn, there are two kinds of efficiency: damage-per-mana, and damage-per-card. Magma Jet fails at the former, but is pretty good at the latter.
By turn 3, you generally have had 5-6 mana. Winning here requires at least one of three things (and usually two): (1) getting good mileage out of conditional cards like Guide and Price, (2) Fireblast, and (3) them dealing a lot of self-damage (often with lands). Magma Jet doesn't help here.
By turn 4, you generally have had 9-10 mana. This is usually enough to kill with Bolts and other things, but it can be tight and sometimes the mana-inefficiency of Magma Jet hurts. However, your other problem is having enough damage in the 9-10 cards you've seen by now; this is likely but not guaranteed. Magma Jet tends to increase your damage-per-card marginally by getting rid of excess lands, or ensuring you make your 3rd land drop to ensure you don't end up stuck at 7 total mana.
By turn 5, you generally have had 12+ mana, so the only question is having enough total damage to go the distance. Magma Jet helps with that. Eidolon helps more. You can use both.
Ok....i confess...i have no idea how to play eidolon in this deck. Really. Ive been playing magic since 1994 and i just dont get it.
So i play this card in my second turn? Then what? Every spell i cast for the rest of the game costs me 2 life? I play lightning bolt to do 3 damage to you and 2 damage to me?
Do i wait till later in the game to cast it?
Do i cast it then do nothing until i have lethal damage in my hand?
I get it, im wrong. Everyone who has ever played magic sees how awesome this card is in a burn deck but me.
Can someone tell me how to play this card?
When do i want to cast it in a ideal situation?
What am i trying to do before i cast it?
What am i trying to do after i cast it?
What 4 cards should i cut to fit it in?
Im really looking forward to your answers.
I know I'm kind of late to this discussion, but I haven't noticed anyone bring this up so I thought I might mention it. The reason Eidolon is good is because of how Legacy is as a format: The vast majority of cards that are playable in Legacy are 3cmc or less, with most cards that cost more being either super value control cards (Jace, the Mind Sculptor), has a cost reduction clause (Gurmag Angler) or cheated onto the field (Batterskull, Emrakul, Griselbrand). So if you're on the play and jam this card turn 2 against most decks in the format and it resolves, literally anything your opponent will play effectively has "This card deals 2 damage to you" written on it. If they want to advance their gameplan or even just remove Eidolon, they have to help yours as well. Another benefit is that you can lock your opponents out of the game if they are are 2 or less life, so you only really need to deal 18 damage to win. The only real outs to Eidolon at such a low life total are JTMS, Murderous Cut, or Fireblast.
Sure you take damage playing your own spells, but between Eidolon being an attacker and your opponent taking damage from playing their spells, it usually turns out asymmetric most of the time. The only time I won't jam him out on turn 2 is if I'm against a blue deck and I suspect they have a Daze. Obviously don't play him if you're far behind in life total, but that's usually much later in the game.
I also feel like this may have been covered earlier, but don't run Flame Rift and Eidolon in the same list. Flame Rift was what burn mages ran before Eidolon was printed, and obviously now it's just not good to deal yourself 6 while dealing your opponent 4.
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, and kind of new to the deck. I just got into playing the deck in Modern, and I thought I should build the Legacy version sometime soon, since I already have most of the cards. I understand the card choices in the deck, so that's okay, but as a new player to Legacy in general, I'm just wondering what kind of changes I should be making to my game plan in Legacy. I haven't made a decklist yet, but I'm planning on simply running a stock list. Is there anything in particular I should be looking out for in this format?
(Before you reply, I know the most popular decks and what they run, so I'm not a total newb in that sense.)
A lot of the more general sequencing is mainly the same. If you are familiar with the format and meta decks then that’s probably the biggest hurdle.
Some tips of the top of my head.
Deathrite and Stoneforge are generally must kill early. Lifegain activations or an early Batterskull can ruin you plans.
Delver also sometimes needs to be bolted. It’s more of a race math thing, but keep in mind they have counters.
Be careful of Daze. This one can easily catch you out being new to Legacy. Playing Rift Bolt T1 is better than Guide in these scenarios. Sometimes better to slow down to play around it.
Similarly, be careful of Stifle on T1 targeting your fetch. Best to play basics first when possible.
Make sure you float mana before sacrificing mountains to Fireblast. Daze and Spell Pierce are pretty annoying if you could have paid.
Don’t crack your fetches if you don’t need to. None of your lands hurt to come in untapped so better to hold for Blaze and other fringe interactions.
Be careful when you cast Chain Lightning against a deck with Red mana. It’s easy to think of it as a sorcery speed Bolt but there is more text than that.
Against decks like Elves and Infect, Grim is your best T1 play. These are the creature combo type matchups where you become a control deck.
Against decks like Storm and Elves, Eidolon is your best T2. You want to put the brakes on them going off ASAP.
Against decks like Dredge and Reanimator, having a relevant sideboard graveyard hate card probably matters more than a well stocked hand.
Against the mirror, plan is to have the last creature on board. Learn how to use Eidolon properly to lock them. Also I have a hunch being on the draw is better.
Basic plan against Counterbalance is to build up mana and cards in hand and hit them with a big end of turn flurry, followed by an untap your turn follow up. Overwhelm their resources with staggered CMC sequences.
Lots more little edges depending on the matchup, but just general rule is to really pay attention to your timing. You have to keep track of what your opponent’s deck is going almost more than your own.
I've been playing burn lately and man is this deck fast, it can outpace nearly anything. Chalice often seals the deal if they get it on turn 1, but I've had hands with nothing but 2-drops or 3-drops followed by fireblast and won that way as well. What I notice however is that there doesn't seem to be any reliable way to stop combos like inquisition or aluren or reanimator, has anyone come up with a solution?
Use SB hate, and win when they stutter. The best thing about Burn is its ability to win consistently around turn 4. If the other deck fails to operate precisely in the face of that kind of clock, they lose. You can't interfere with them much, but a misstep against Burn is suicide, and none of the super fast decks are THAT consistent.
Yeah, Eidolon and Pillar are your main goto's for Storm style combos. It also works pretty well for Elves. Eidolon though is pretty much good against everything, but Storm in particular nearly folds to a resolved one.
For stuff like Reanimator and Dredge combos you need dedicated graveyard hate in the sideboard and hope that they don't get the nut draw. They tend to be a bit faster than us, and we otherwise have no other way to interact. Game 1 we have to get a bit lucky. 2 and 3 we have to mulligan aggressively.
Their are other combos that are difficult for us to interact with, like Sneak & Show, and outside of hoping to have an Ensnaring Bridge ready to reveal off their Show and Tell, our main weapon is just speed and luck. They tend to be a bit slower, so our consistency is not a bad thing to rely on here.
Then there are hopeless "combo" matchups like Enchantress which just cannot really be handled with the normal sorts of tools. You have to go quite out of your way to have an answer and in general its not worth the sideboard space to worry about.
I would't say it "stops" combos, because what I found is most people would just thoughtseize or FOW it if they have a combo or many small spells. But, I guess running 4 Eidolon AND sideboarding for 3-4 pillars would do it.
Is there a general rule concerning when to mulligan in terms of land count?
4 i always mulligan
2 or 3 i keep
1 is really a question for me.
The mana curve is so low, it seems like it should work out. But ive been playing a bunch of magic online this week, and keeping the one land hands often doesnt work out.
I play with 19 mountains as my only lands.
It's a very situational question. You need to consider your hand, your decklist, and the opponent's deck.
1. Is your hand full of good 1-drops, particularly recurring sources of damage like Guide on the play? That's a reason to keep.
2. What's your deck's land count, and relative abundance of 1-drops? If you keep this, what are the odds that you'll make your second land drop?
3. Is your opponent's deck fast enough that any hesitation may cost you the game? Similarly, do they have spells that can punish you for being land-light like Sinkhole or Daze? These are reasons to mulligan.
I'd guess that I keep about one-third of my 1-land hands.
My guide/rules of thumb for 1 land openers is as follows:
On the play - Your hand basically has to be in the position where if you draw your second land you will win, and the land in hand needs to be a basic mountain instead of a fetch or other non basic. In a game where every top deck will matter you don't want to thin your already thin deck even more of the cards you actually need. Its a 2% drop off in a 20 land deck, which may not seem like a lot but it means one in every 50 games will be better off without fetching, which is a non trivial number to a serious player. Life totals do tend to matter more in those matches as well.
It is still risky and even more so post sideboard. Basically has to have a goblin guide, some number of bolts, and maybe even more creatures that are not EotGR since you may not be able to play your own if you are mana strapped. Multiple Fireblasts, Searing blaze, or PoP against an unknown opponent means mulligan.
On the Draw - Much more inclined to keep a one lander on the draw, as you will have 2 draws to see another land. You still need a hand that can win with 2 lands, which means multiple Fireblasts are a no keep (I mean, it usually is) but I feel much more lenient about Searing Blaze since it has a good chance of seeing another land and being relevant on your turn 2.
hows it going?
i got into online magic a week or 2 ago....so ive played like 1000 games of magic recently. mostly with my burn deck, but goblins are fun and not that expensive too. A couple of things....
-first, now that i can play 25 hours a day, i can crack out on magic like i havent in years, so i havent slept in days. if i get too rambley, someone turn off my mic.
-the competition is so much more intense then any ive ever seen at any card store ive been to. its really interesting to see some of the card combos, i wind up saying "i have no idea whats happening" a lot. (can someone explain what the hell TES is? i mean.. DAMN thats fast. they turn over cards for like 5 minutes on their first or second turn... then i loose....lol) The burn deck does surprisingly well, even though im sure im not playing it as well as it could be played.
-so many people play some kind of land destruction or something like... each spell you cast costs an extra 1... or all spells that cost less then 3 cost 3...19 lands just werent cutting it for me. far too often im dying for mana. 20 works much better for me. Even then i still wind up playing entire games with only 1 land on the table at a time...sinkhole, hymn to tourach some freak thing that makes me sacrifice half a dozen permanents per turn, tons of reasons. its nice to report that i still sometimes win with only the 1 land out.
-1 land opening hands are not to be kept. ever. if i mulligan to 6 and still only have 1 land, maybe ill keep it depending on what else is in my hand, but im probably going to loose the game if i start with 1 land in my hand.
-Theres a ton of lifegain running around, but Sulfuric Vortex is really too slow, unless you KNOW theyre playing some kind of deck where you need the vortex. 3 mana is sometimes so hard to get, and by the time i get it, the vortex sometimes costs 4 from Daze or something else....i keep 3 in the sb, because some matches i need it, but its been too slow for me otherwise. ive considered skullcrack but i havent tried it. against the decks that beat me with lifegain, spending 2 to stop one turn of gain seems meanigless
-i find that social distortion song " i was wrong" running through my mind a lot as i play, because i was wrong about a lot of things i thought about my burn deck. id like to update some of the things ive said here.
vexing devil and magma jet. clearly not strong enough to be included in the deck. a few days in the "tournament practice" section of MTGO will easily explain that to anyone.
price of progress. mvp of the deck. at least online. i dont know if its different on paper, but almost everyone i play against online has most of their lands as non basic. i dont know if its because some cards are MUCH cheaper online then on paper (how does $17.00 sound for an Underground Sea?) but really... this card KILLS it for me.
Eidolon of the Great Revel. wow was i wrong about this. the deck cant possibly compete consistently without it. ( as a point of reference, for mtgo, you can get all 5 moxes and the lotus for about $120 total. 4 eidolons cost about $100. !!!!) i think that what no one pointed out (or i missed entirely) is how infrequently this card sees play. let me explain... in the many many many games ive played this week, i think eidolon hit the table MAYBE 20 times. and of those 20, he lasted long enough to deal damage to me once or twice and only dealt more then 2 damage to my opponent a handful of times. the best thing about him is the protection he offers to my other cards. in practice, for me, this card seems to read "your opponent discards their best defense spell". my fireblasts dont getthoughtseized, my goblin guides dont get bolted, my flame rifts dont get force of willed, my price of progress doesnt get named when people are removing cards from my hand or library... on and on and on....people will do anything they can to keep it off the table.
flame rift is still an awesome card to me... even with the 4 eidolons in the deck... eidolon has yet to stay in play long enough to make me take 6 from a flame rift, and if he does stay around that long, i either dont need to play the rift, or the 4 to my opponent will end the game.
i feel like im playing the exact sullivan list that someone posted here a while back, maybe with a different sb. i dont like just playing with someone elses deck without tweaking it at least a little to make it mine, but its really the most effective list ive found so far.
The talk about Chasm-Crucible actually hits upon something I've been thinking about lately. Here in the USA SCG Open Worcester is coming up this weekend, and I'm definitely going to be there. I'm most likely going to be playing Burn, mainly because it's the only complete Legacy deck I have, but I also do actually enjoy playing the archetype. As I've been studying up on various Legacy decklists and pouring over whatever results I can find from any Legacy tournaments, I find myself asking the question more and more "is straight mono-red Burn still the ideal build currently?". As I look at a variety of lists it just feels like Burn is having a harder time keeping up. It seems as though each new set has brought something new or innovative to most other decks, but the last real "innovation" with Burn seems to be Exquisite Firecraft. I've been wondering more and more if we are limiting the growth of the deck by staying mono colored. I'm aware that the current builds guard us against PoP recoil, and that aside from certain numbers of a couple maindeck cards and some flex sideboard slots that the deck has pretty much stayed the same since Eidolon of the Great Revel was added, but is that really what's best for the deck to stay competitive? In doing a bit of research it seems like others have tried splashing a second color here and there before with white or green being the most common. Occasionally people have tried black as well, but it seems any discussions of changing the deck or trying new things gets met with harsh discontent; "Mono red is the only way to play Burn!" "How dare you suggest changing any of the cards!" "Hey you kids, get off my lawn!" etc.... Long story short, through all the info I've looked through, it just seems like straight-up mono-red Burn is not in a good position in the current meta. I think part of it's strength is also a huge weakness at times: it's consistent. It does the same things with the same cards time and time again. And by now people have figured out what to expect when playing against it. I'd love to hear other opinions and thoughts on the matter. I still hope to bring a burn deck to the open, I just don't know what kind it will be yet.
I've been playing with a single plateau and 2-3 Deflecting Palm in the board for a while; it's been great so far
It's mainly for the decks that put a big fatty on the field on turn 1-2. It's also been pretty good against creature decks with no discard spells, and little to no land hate (usually I try to fetch it at the last second to keep it safe if I can)
I don't think I've ever lost any life from PoP because of it.
It has been hit by a wasteland about 0.5% of my games, but I don't recall ever be mana screwed because of it
Right now I'm wondering if I should up my plateau count to 2
More chance of having a land killed by nonbasic hate
More chance of taking damages to PoP
Can cast 2 white spell in the same turn (it came up a few time)
Can search for the 2nd source if my 1st gets destroyed
Private Mod Note
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Phoenix, I'll ask this honestly as I haven't been able to play legacy for quite some time...where do you find the deck lacking? What against in the meta?
We know we have a terrible matchup with anything reanimator, and sneak/show is still favored against us....other than that I can't see us being too far off due to the format revolving around leovold and friends. (Mid-range value, blue decks with slow clocks, and pyromancer decks.) A cabal therapy chain can put us seriously behind due to the tokens, but that's any deck right?
Storm seems to be falling by the wayside though it still exists. Chalice decks are okay draw depending, and dnt is pretty even last time I saw. If something has changed please let me know? I've got a couple events coming up eventually and I want to prepare.
Also has anyone had success/dissatisfaction with pyro pillar vs neo miracles or leovold /pile decks? Is it really just in the board as additional storm hate? The last build I saw do well in the classic series had a playset in the board.
If I were to run a splash, 2-4 duals with a dozen fetches seems pretty good. A second dual land (especially in place of a spell) won't affect the opponent's disruption that much, and may ensure you can still resolve critical off-color spells that you probably splashed for in the first place.
In addition to the white splashes, I've seen Brainstorm-Burn. It's not the worst thing ever.
While I think mono-red is still better, I think there are viable splashes in almost every color that perform especially well against certain decks. I just don't know that is true that those situations line up enough to create a meta where that is worth taking damage from PoP or disruption from Wasteland.
What do you guys use to fill the flex slots and board?
Mine at the moment:
61 Main: 4 swiftspear
3 searing blaze
1 sulfuric vortex (don't leave home without it)
3 searing blood
1 sulfuric vortex
2 exquisite firecraft
2 smash to smithereens
And 6 slots typically up in the air till the day of between pyrostatic pillar, ensnaring bridge, grave hate, ratchet bomb, harsh mentor or mind break trap. Randomly pyroblast but never really certain of what we'd actually want to counter/blow up outside of maybe show and tell. We aren't delver and a couple copies....never was really sold on them. Maybe you guys could open my eyes?
Edit: only time I've ever played skullcrack was when I knew energy field to be played in miracles. Maybe worth revisiting?