How do I maximize the chances of starting with exactly 2-3 land (without mulling)?
Look at bottom tables. We want to open on 2-3 land, so we want the orange and tan cells in columns D and E. When we're on the play, we maximize chances with 21 land. However, our best chances on the draw are with 18-19 land. The best compromise is 20 land (with 19 being a close second).
I can see sticking with 21 to err on the side of mulling less, but I'll keep rocking 20 land and 2 tops and see how I feel over time.
Probably not. 4-mana is a lot for a spell in Burn. It comes down the turn we're aiming to finish and does less damage with that mana than the alternatives. It's more at home in red control--something that doesn't exist in Legacy.
MD is fine. Exquisite Firecraft is not mandatory, but is quite good. Arguably, 3x is fine. The Shushers might be overkill. Also not crazy about Leyline (I prefer more copies of Vortex), but no huge issues overall. One observation is that you lack graveyard hate. I prefer 3+ such cards in my SB, but less may be okay in your metagame.
What about Legion Loyalist? Would he be viable in a competitive burn deck? Sorry if this has already been covered, but I cba going through 100 plus pages lol.
No, it is not...
You want that each spell will have a ratio of 3 damages for each mana you spend (not necessary at the same time, it could be a creature that hits multiple times in order to achieve 3 for 1 ratio)
What about Legion Loyalist? Would he be viable in a competitive burn deck? Sorry if this has already been covered, but I cba going through 100 plus pages lol.
No, it is not...
You want that each spell will have a ratio of 3 damages for each mana you spend (not necessary at the same time, it could be a creature that hits multiple times in order to achieve 3 for 1 ratio)
Loyalist will hit once, so 1-for-1
Not quite, but generally right. The 3-for-1 threshold is a good rule of thumb. If it's not guaranteed to get a 3-for-1, you need a good reason to play it.
For instance, Eidolon of the Great Revel isn't guaranteed to do anything, but is usually good for 4-6 damage (2- or 3-for-1) and outright kills some decks.
Grim Lavamancer is unlikely to hit a 3-for-1 level, but so dominates aggro decks that it's perfectly usable.
Goblin Guide may only hit once, but sometimes it hits 3-4 times, so it's worth it overall.
To make Legion Loyalist do enough damage, it would have to hit 3 times. That's unlikely, and the upside isn't worth the risk. You'd be better off with Monastary Swiftspear.
Went X-3 at the CFB Legacy today playing a different list than I posted. Missed pay out by placing twentieth. Fun tournament and I'm still a decent pilot for the deck and I think this deck is well positioned in my area to really wreak havoc. Bad tournament report coming right up!
Grixis Delver - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in two Firecrafts and the extra Blaze, I removed three Goblin Guides.
Only note to take from this was that he decided to counter my Top in game three. I didn't play a land when I cast it, making him believe I needed land. Played a land after and proceeded to beat with spells. Two Firecraft, a Barbarian Ring, and Fireblast destroyed him. He was a solid player though. If he suspected the Barbarian Ring, I'm sure he would have played a little differently. In game one he had all the counterspells and ran with Gurmag Angler. I can't really remember game two, but I suspect I just ran him over with nothing to note.
Shardless BUG - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I side boarded just like the previous match in our game one, but in game three I put in two Smash and two Pithing Needle and removed the three Swiftspear and the last Guide
Regarding my sideboard, I usually put in some number of Smash against this deck, but I have been sideboarding incorrectly for this match up, which explains why I keep losing to this deck. I'll get into this further at a later match up from today
Game one he ran with Deathrite Shaman and had three Forces for all of my kill spells. Game two I ran him over fairly easily with creature beats and some Firecrafts. Game three I mulled down to five and kept a single land hand. He ran away with the game with Goyf, Lili, and Agent. Really wish I wasn't mana screwed here. I know my first hand was no land, second hand too much land. That's probably something I should have kept because I faintly remember Eidolon hanging out there. I just didn't want to chance it with drawing duds in the form of more lands. I also sideboarded incorrectly. I didn't know what he was after game one and suspected he was Grixis Delver. After finding out what he was, I re-boarded.
Grixis Delver - Win 2-0
Sideboard: Same as match one.
Nothing special here, move along. I don't even remember this match in its entirety, but apparently it happened according to my match notes.
Lands - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in Pithing Needle and two Firecraft. I thought about using some grave hate, but quickly dismissed it. There's such a small chance that it will matter since the problem will be on the table already. I took out Blaze and a Mountain.
Nothing special to note here. I put Needle here to combat a possible Zuran Orb and stop the combo. Neither mattered and nothing really noted here, other than my stupidity that I waited for him to tap out of green for fear of Crop Rotation, but he had a Chalice out on one. I face palmed myself pretty readily after I decided to go for it when he tapped out green. I asked why did he tap out for green when he didn't need it. Pointed to the Chalice. Boy, this is what happens when you don't play Magic in awhile.
Shardless BUG - Win 2-1
Sideboard: In two Firecraft and the singleton Blaze, and removed three Guides. I decided to go this route for once because I felt like I kept having artifact hate in hand and dying. I hesitated taking out Guides and bringing in Firecraft. Reason being is Hymn kills my hand sometimes before I get Firecraft. I am thinking maybe I take out Fireblast for the extra Firecraft and keep the Guides? I know I want to race, but I know Guide isn't a great top deck. Neither is Swiftspear, but I considered removing Guide because Brainstorming a land onto the top of the deck in reponse to the Guide trigger and I can grow Swiftspear above an Agent and keep the beats the following turn.
Nothing to note about this game, other than I roll him over in games two and three after a Deathrite and Goyf beat in game one. The deck felt more streamlined in this form and the greed was gone from wanting to two for one the opponent.
Miracles - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Prices and two Blaze, for two Needle, two Smash, and two Firecraft.
He was paired up and a very good pilot because he was paired up all day as told by him. He looks tired and I know what he's on and saw how well he played the round before. I'm hoping he makes mistakes and he doesn't. *****. I hate this match up and I've only beaten it once in my life. Game one I beat in with Swiftspear a couple of times off of countered spells, and get there with four Rift Bolts that were never countered and finished him with Firecraft. Game two he has early Counter-Top lock and I have a slow death from Clique beats. Game three I have single land for two turns and I open up with Needle and Smash in hand. I keep playing this cat and mouse game with this two card combo and this is the final time I play it. Just going to bring in Needle and Firecraft next time. I feel like this deck needs more higher costing spells that Miracles can't really answer in the Counter-Top lock.
Eldrazi - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Guide and Eidolon for four Smash, two Firecraft, and two Needle.
I've never played against this deck a day in my life, but he has a nut draw with that 5/5 trample haste, and Jitte. GG one. Game two I kill on turn three with a pair of Swiftspears, Lava Spike, and Smash. Game three he drops a Basilisk Collar and I have Needle in hand. I keep thinking I'll have time to drop Needle to surprise him, but that bites me in the ass as I didn't realize how explosive Eldrazi is. Also, I kept a one land hand with a variety of spell costs. Probably going to be the last time I keep a sketch hand like that as well. He beats my face in, needless to say.
What to take away from this tournament? I don't like Top in this deck. At the very least, it doesn't fit my playstyle for the deck in the slightest. Everytime I had it, I was disappointed by it. There's probably a learning curve to playing it in the deck, but I'm not going to take the time to find it while I have other iterations to play with and test, plus I don't play nearly enough to care about it. Swiftspear is a lot better than I thought and I take back alot of the bad stuff I've said about it. Would I replace Guide with it? Hell no! This deck needs hasty aggressive beaters, but I do think in different circumstances the deck can survive with one or the other. I don't think Grim is a card for the deck right now. Maybe if Elves comes back, but Delver and D&T probably just don't care for it. I didn't miss him all day. I do like Ring. Didn't hamper me at all. Plenty of other lands I played while sandbagging it in hand. I don't believe I would go beyond a singleton though. I don't like my chances of having two and the bad that can come along with it.
Once again, my worry about Storm variants goes checked. Didn't see it and many people I've talked to about it say that very few play it if they even show up to tournaments. I can think of maybe three players total I've seen play it over my course of two and a half years of playing locally. Of course, I always come across the same Storm player whenever he's attending the same tournament as me. Never fails, plus he hasn't failed to combo out on me at most turn two every time we play against each other. I think if I don't see these players, I will gladly forego the Storm hate out of my side for other spells I could use. Cards I never sided in all tournament: Crypt, Macabre, Pillar, and Trap, though there were at least two Dredge players there. Dredge always seems to wade at the tournaments, so I see you Dredgers.
As I play more and more with the top (I'm on three tops) list, I lean more and more towards a "Mono-Red Control" vibe. The deck still has the potential to beat down and put pressure on bigger control decks which I like, but can still go over smaller decks like DnT or delver. I can appreciate that the play style isn't for everyone.
I generally do not like SDT in Burn, because Burn wants to race. SDT means you will lose that race, as it will generally slow you down by at least one turn. That said, it does improve the deck's long game power.
I think that it might be worthwhile to conceive of two different builds. The really fast non-SDT decks can finish the game in 4 turns, or 3 with some luck. SDT decks take 4-5 (if not more), but have a lot more staying power.
The lists probably differ in more than SDT, and probably thrive in very different metagames.
I totally agree. Although the point of SDT is that you don't "have" to win that fast, you can win a couple turns later where it might be less of a "I hope he doesn't have spell pierce + force". I don't find myself losing games where I have to go fast, I find that I lose more games where I'm forced into going longer (without SDT). But totally, if your meta is all eldrazi and other burn decks then yeah, cutting SDT makes total sense to me. In a wide meta I find that SDT wins me more games than where it matters that I'm sometimes slower.
What are the thoughts on splashing white/green like in modern? It's almost painless due to the dual lands and there are probably a few cards such as Boros charm and SB options that we could benefit from. Thoughts?
You could read the thread for details, but basically no. If you feel you need it for Krosan Grips and the like, feel free to try it, but with Thalia 2, Wasteland, etc., dual lands are definitely not free.
Price of Progress very likely the sole reason why the deck is Mono Red. Splashes tend to be 1x Dual to fetch out for a sideboard card. It's usually green, since the main thing we lack is enchantment interaction. Wasteland makes this proposition a lot riskier than it sounds though. Another good reason not to splash heavier, given how land light we are.
By the way, when I said no, I was talking about the 1-2 Duals splash, not the full Naya build. The full Naya build wouldn't be viable even if PoP only hurt the opponent.
My point is that even a light splash is not worth it (and wouldn't be worth it if PoP only hurt the opponent). I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, since Taiga is my favorite dual. But I keep mine in my crappy Zoo deck.
It is my understanding that the deck is mono-R because of Wasteland. Even if you play Barbarian Ring, you're not color screwed by losing it.
Sure some players are playing mono red because of wastelands. The best reason to play mono red is simplistic, splashing colors could get you screwed in playing a spell because burn don't draw out cards.
It is my understanding that the deck is mono-R because of Wasteland. Even if you play Barbarian Ring, you're not color screwed by losing it.
Sure some players are playing mono red because of wastelands. The best reason to play mono red is simplistic, splashing colors could get you screwed in playing a spell because burn don't draw out cards.
Fine, there's enough in Red to build the deck in Red. However, if Wasteland didn't exist then splashing for cards would be cake. Color fixing in Naya Burn in Modern is not a problem. There's both enough in mono-R to build mono-R and mono-R is attractive because of immunity to Wasteland.
Actually, if Flame Rift were instant, I would play the ***** out of it. Price able to hit only opponent through mono red build is amazing because sometimes opponents will Waste their own land and now you've dealt a lot of damage to yourself if you're multicolored and zero to them. Of course, I'm speaking of worst case scenario, which is how a card should be evaluated.
You could say the same about Barbarian Ring. Price doesn't really weigh in on the desire to be mono-R. It's based more on being capable of assembling strong cards in R and being immune to Wasteland. Also, instant speed Flame Rift sounds pretty solid. Burn is monored because it can be monored and because it nullifies a hate card that a boat load of decks play. Incidentally, this makes PoP stronger.
I wouldn't play Rift even if it were instant. The addition of Eidolon made it way too risky. It would be the same with Price if we started to splash more often. I do not discount the Wasteland part of this argument, because that is a huge reason to stay mono Red as well. Ring doesn't get play because of Fireblast, not so much anything else.
I can see sticking with 21 to err on the side of mulling less, but I'll keep rocking 20 land and 2 tops and see how I feel over time.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
https://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/87596242?t=04h00m42s
And apparently I've changed my name: Ugh
This looks like it might have a place in our lists. Thoughts?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Edit:
Forget it, here's my decklist. Please give me some suggestions.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands
9 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Leyline of Punishment
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Mindbreak Trap
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
No, it is not...
You want that each spell will have a ratio of 3 damages for each mana you spend (not necessary at the same time, it could be a creature that hits multiple times in order to achieve 3 for 1 ratio)
Loyalist will hit once, so 1-for-1
H/W - Website
Not quite, but generally right. The 3-for-1 threshold is a good rule of thumb. If it's not guaranteed to get a 3-for-1, you need a good reason to play it.
For instance, Eidolon of the Great Revel isn't guaranteed to do anything, but is usually good for 4-6 damage (2- or 3-for-1) and outright kills some decks.
Grim Lavamancer is unlikely to hit a 3-for-1 level, but so dominates aggro decks that it's perfectly usable.
Goblin Guide may only hit once, but sometimes it hits 3-4 times, so it's worth it overall.
To make Legion Loyalist do enough damage, it would have to hit 3 times. That's unlikely, and the upside isn't worth the risk. You'd be better off with Monastary Swiftspear.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
List:
3 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Fireblast
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
1 Barbarian Ring
8 Mountain
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Searing Blaze
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Exquisite Firecraft
1 Mindbreak Trap
Grixis Delver - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in two Firecrafts and the extra Blaze, I removed three Goblin Guides.
Only note to take from this was that he decided to counter my Top in game three. I didn't play a land when I cast it, making him believe I needed land. Played a land after and proceeded to beat with spells. Two Firecraft, a Barbarian Ring, and Fireblast destroyed him. He was a solid player though. If he suspected the Barbarian Ring, I'm sure he would have played a little differently. In game one he had all the counterspells and ran with Gurmag Angler. I can't really remember game two, but I suspect I just ran him over with nothing to note.
Shardless BUG - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I side boarded just like the previous match in our game one, but in game three I put in two Smash and two Pithing Needle and removed the three Swiftspear and the last Guide
Regarding my sideboard, I usually put in some number of Smash against this deck, but I have been sideboarding incorrectly for this match up, which explains why I keep losing to this deck. I'll get into this further at a later match up from today
Game one he ran with Deathrite Shaman and had three Forces for all of my kill spells. Game two I ran him over fairly easily with creature beats and some Firecrafts. Game three I mulled down to five and kept a single land hand. He ran away with the game with Goyf, Lili, and Agent. Really wish I wasn't mana screwed here. I know my first hand was no land, second hand too much land. That's probably something I should have kept because I faintly remember Eidolon hanging out there. I just didn't want to chance it with drawing duds in the form of more lands. I also sideboarded incorrectly. I didn't know what he was after game one and suspected he was Grixis Delver. After finding out what he was, I re-boarded.
Grixis Delver - Win 2-0
Sideboard: Same as match one.
Nothing special here, move along. I don't even remember this match in its entirety, but apparently it happened according to my match notes.
Lands - Win 2-1
Sideboard: I put in Pithing Needle and two Firecraft. I thought about using some grave hate, but quickly dismissed it. There's such a small chance that it will matter since the problem will be on the table already. I took out Blaze and a Mountain.
Nothing special to note here. I put Needle here to combat a possible Zuran Orb and stop the combo. Neither mattered and nothing really noted here, other than my stupidity that I waited for him to tap out of green for fear of Crop Rotation, but he had a Chalice out on one. I face palmed myself pretty readily after I decided to go for it when he tapped out green. I asked why did he tap out for green when he didn't need it. Pointed to the Chalice. Boy, this is what happens when you don't play Magic in awhile.
Shardless BUG - Win 2-1
Sideboard: In two Firecraft and the singleton Blaze, and removed three Guides. I decided to go this route for once because I felt like I kept having artifact hate in hand and dying. I hesitated taking out Guides and bringing in Firecraft. Reason being is Hymn kills my hand sometimes before I get Firecraft. I am thinking maybe I take out Fireblast for the extra Firecraft and keep the Guides? I know I want to race, but I know Guide isn't a great top deck. Neither is Swiftspear, but I considered removing Guide because Brainstorming a land onto the top of the deck in reponse to the Guide trigger and I can grow Swiftspear above an Agent and keep the beats the following turn.
Nothing to note about this game, other than I roll him over in games two and three after a Deathrite and Goyf beat in game one. The deck felt more streamlined in this form and the greed was gone from wanting to two for one the opponent.
Miracles - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Prices and two Blaze, for two Needle, two Smash, and two Firecraft.
He was paired up and a very good pilot because he was paired up all day as told by him. He looks tired and I know what he's on and saw how well he played the round before. I'm hoping he makes mistakes and he doesn't. *****. I hate this match up and I've only beaten it once in my life. Game one I beat in with Swiftspear a couple of times off of countered spells, and get there with four Rift Bolts that were never countered and finished him with Firecraft. Game two he has early Counter-Top lock and I have a slow death from Clique beats. Game three I have single land for two turns and I open up with Needle and Smash in hand. I keep playing this cat and mouse game with this two card combo and this is the final time I play it. Just going to bring in Needle and Firecraft next time. I feel like this deck needs more higher costing spells that Miracles can't really answer in the Counter-Top lock.
Eldrazi - Loss 2-1
Sideboard: I took out Guide and Eidolon for four Smash, two Firecraft, and two Needle.
I've never played against this deck a day in my life, but he has a nut draw with that 5/5 trample haste, and Jitte. GG one. Game two I kill on turn three with a pair of Swiftspears, Lava Spike, and Smash. Game three he drops a Basilisk Collar and I have Needle in hand. I keep thinking I'll have time to drop Needle to surprise him, but that bites me in the ass as I didn't realize how explosive Eldrazi is. Also, I kept a one land hand with a variety of spell costs. Probably going to be the last time I keep a sketch hand like that as well. He beats my face in, needless to say.
What to take away from this tournament? I don't like Top in this deck. At the very least, it doesn't fit my playstyle for the deck in the slightest. Everytime I had it, I was disappointed by it. There's probably a learning curve to playing it in the deck, but I'm not going to take the time to find it while I have other iterations to play with and test, plus I don't play nearly enough to care about it. Swiftspear is a lot better than I thought and I take back alot of the bad stuff I've said about it. Would I replace Guide with it? Hell no! This deck needs hasty aggressive beaters, but I do think in different circumstances the deck can survive with one or the other. I don't think Grim is a card for the deck right now. Maybe if Elves comes back, but Delver and D&T probably just don't care for it. I didn't miss him all day. I do like Ring. Didn't hamper me at all. Plenty of other lands I played while sandbagging it in hand. I don't believe I would go beyond a singleton though. I don't like my chances of having two and the bad that can come along with it.
Once again, my worry about Storm variants goes checked. Didn't see it and many people I've talked to about it say that very few play it if they even show up to tournaments. I can think of maybe three players total I've seen play it over my course of two and a half years of playing locally. Of course, I always come across the same Storm player whenever he's attending the same tournament as me. Never fails, plus he hasn't failed to combo out on me at most turn two every time we play against each other. I think if I don't see these players, I will gladly forego the Storm hate out of my side for other spells I could use. Cards I never sided in all tournament: Crypt, Macabre, Pillar, and Trap, though there were at least two Dredge players there. Dredge always seems to wade at the tournaments, so I see you Dredgers.
And apparently I've changed my name: Ugh
I think that it might be worthwhile to conceive of two different builds. The really fast non-SDT decks can finish the game in 4 turns, or 3 with some luck. SDT decks take 4-5 (if not more), but have a lot more staying power.
The lists probably differ in more than SDT, and probably thrive in very different metagames.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
And apparently I've changed my name: Ugh
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
My point is that even a light splash is not worth it (and wouldn't be worth it if PoP only hurt the opponent). I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary, since Taiga is my favorite dual. But I keep mine in my crappy Zoo deck.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Sure some players are playing mono red because of wastelands. The best reason to play mono red is simplistic, splashing colors could get you screwed in playing a spell because burn don't draw out cards.
Fine, there's enough in Red to build the deck in Red. However, if Wasteland didn't exist then splashing for cards would be cake. Color fixing in Naya Burn in Modern is not a problem. There's both enough in mono-R to build mono-R and mono-R is attractive because of immunity to Wasteland.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)