I'm looking to start playing Legacy Burn.
I saw the MTGGoldfish burn list, and was wondering if that might be a good place to start.
Thanks in advance,
DracomnisGT
Can you share what list you're talking about? Is it a budget Legacy burn list? I think it's very important for Burn to have all the pieces to be competitive, but you can still take advantage of fair blue decks at a local tournament if you don't have Guides or something. You won't be much weaker to combo than Burn already is. All the Bolt variants, PoP, Fireblast, Swift, Eidolon, and 19 mountains gets you close to a complete list. I think a budget Burn list would probably fare better in Modern than Legacy though.
When facing Dark Depths with Burn, you just lose.
And both of you are happy to just lose.
I find that very strange.
What you are missing (or perhaps deliberately pretending to miss) is that the sideboard is not about beating specifically your hardest matchups, but improving your overall deck performance against the field as whole. If putting a card in your SB improves your results by 1% against 20% of your opponents, that is worth more than if the card improves your results by 10% against 1% of opponents--even if that opponent is one of your worst matchups. In other words: frequently a card that is pretty good in a lot of match-ups is much better than a card that is amazing in just a few (even if they're your worst).
That's the point: we're fine with not playing Moon because it only helps against very few decks, and that's a lot weaker than our other choices.
Now if your specific meta has enough Depths that you run into it constantly, you have two choices: heavily warp your deck to beat it while sacrificing a ton of points against everything else (what you're doing) or switch decks to something that has a better matchup against Depths naturally (which is what most of us would do).
Now, you say you have been able to make Burn a good choice in a Depths-heavy meta. I find that very interesting. Perhaps you can provide some statistics on the breakdown of decks in your local meta, your records against some of the dominant decks in that meta, and your current deck list. This would provide some useful information to judge the conclusion, test, and see if maybe there is a secret that we have all missed that would improve our own deck construction in the future.
Until there is some evidence though, the existing data makes us a bit skeptical.
Light up the stage & Skewer are seeing some success
3x Fireblast instead of 4 still seems the right call.
Bomat courier is interesting.
lord_darkview -> frequently a card that is pretty good in a lot of match-ups is much better than a card that is amazing in just a few (even if they're your worst).
I flat out disagree. So do almost all of the above winning decklists I posted above. Almost all have some incredibly narrow sideboard cards. Faerie Macabre & Ashen Rider & Grafdigger's Cage & Surgical Extraction - are all VERY narrow, and completely reasonable. All of those completely disagree with your point of view about what a sideboard is about.
Is Ashen Rider something a red deck is planning on sideboarding in regularly?
GPash -> you're the only one who is hellbent on beating Depths. You found the answer. Congrats. Good for you. Nobody else cares.
Three of the above Burn decklists play Alpine Moon.
Some of us lose to Dark Depths far less than you.
GPash -> Yeah, now Reanimator is mostly RB, so no FoW, and Burn still loses to Reanimator. It wasn't ever FoW that Burn feared out of Reanimator, so your argument is pointless. Reanimator isn't a FoW deck - it's a deck that has blue and thus has FoW. Burn beats the FAIR FoW decks. But then again, you've proven time and time again you don't know what fair means.
Decks playing FoW are not FoW decks.
Decks playing FoW are Fair decks, by definition, except they aren't.
Seems reasonable. Thanks.
Have you considered typing positive, or useful words?
Maybe something like Karakas is regularly seeing sideboard play in burn, in part because of DD.
Karakas also helps a lot against Griselbrand. (Maze & Wak Wak too)
Goblin Cratermaker - Destoys 20/20 colourless creatures - I like it.
Wow. It also stops Emrukal! cool!
You're the only one hellbent on beating Depths in this thread. Congrats on finding 3 other people in 20-40 person events that run Alpine Moon as well, though.
If you can't distinguish between a FoW deck (control/Miracles) and a deck that happens to be running blue and hence FoW (UB reanimator), I can't help you. Maybe that's the reason you can't win a 15 person event. All makes sense now.
Oh, just discovered the "Ignore User" option. Perfect.
That list definitely misses Goblin Guide, so if you can afford it then I'd highly recommend it. Otherwise, it looks pretty stock. You may want to replace Flame Rift with Skewer the Critics and also try to find room for Light Up the Stage, perhaps trimming the Skullcrack, Sonic Burst and a Vortex or two.
Then you start to see some differentiation among lists. Some people still run Flame Rift, whereas others have replaced it with Skewer the Critics. Some lists run maindeck Sulfuric Vortex, whereas others now run Light Up the Stage. 18-20 basic Mountains seems par for the course, unless you're running Grim Lavamancer and Searing Blaze, in which case you'll want to add fetchlands.
Sideboard is really dependent on how your meta looks, but typically there is a combination of anti-combo cards (Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Blasts), anti-aggro cards (Searing Blood/Blaze), graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, Grafdigger's Cage), anti-Batterskull/Chalice of the Void cards (Smash to Smithereens, Shattering Spree, Abrade), etc.
So I follow the link to see what DracomnisGT is wanting advice on.
Hey Wow, Legacy burn is playing against Dark Depths twice. Neat. Two of the 4 match ups are against my nemesis.
GB depths
1) 1 land, get sinkholed, never gets to 2 land - dead
2) goes long, sulphuric vortex for slow win
3) small pox, chalice lock for 1, mana flood, price of progress for the WIN !
ah, . . sure - their deck failed to do what it is meant to. No combo in any of the 3 games.
Lands
'I hate this deck so much' if only I draw a 2nd land. . .
1) Maze of Ith, tabernacle, stall, Glacial chasm, - crop rotation for dark depths, stuff up the combo - win.
2) Bad play, bad deck, no 2nd glacial chasm, no combo - WIN!
- 5 games, no combo
Sure, I can beat Dark Depths, when played by bad players that get horribly unlucky.
That's hilarious !
Try playing against it when they have a 20/20 on turn 2.
X X X
GPash is right in suggesting Goblin Guide is a good choice, but, a playset will cost as much as the entire rest of the deck.
Each Goblin guide is $25 each.
GPash is also bang on when describing the basic card list of the deck.
( I love the fact GPash won't see me agreeing with him. )
A much cheaper alternative is Bomat Courier, at $0.50 each
They also give a surprising long game, and don't have the downside of GG.
Also, if you are playing a budget version you need to be more reliable, so including a couple of Barabarian rings is probably a good idea.
Barbarian Ring is about $0.80 each.
Sonic burst is also a great way to increase your reliability, but does reduce speed. And costs $0.20.
Ha! Lucky for me I had forgotten to select Ignore User and have now seen you agreeing with me. That's a refreshing change of pace. Perhaps a truce is in order.
Isn't there a devoid card to answer it? Might cost too much to cast. I think it costs 3b
Dark Depths... The Marit Lage token is a creature token. Consuming Sinkhole targets a land creature
[such as: Mishra's Factory - Assembly-Worker]
I strongly believe if Dark Depths is too much of an issue, it would be best to splash. White Path to Exile and Blue Chain of Vapor would be good splash cards. I like Chain of Vapor more because it hits other non-land targets and the chain effect is rarely good against us, too.
Does nobody use Searing Blood anymore? I find it's really potent since delver, miracles, and grixis are everywhere.
Also, I've backed down to 2 Swiftspears as I find 2 Lavamancers are good.
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Path to Exile can only work once the target is on the battlefield. The reason it specifically does not work great against Marit lage is because they get the land they want as part of their engine, and they are playing wasteland. They can see you have the ability to get a white, and path it. Sometimes they figure out a way to hide, sometimes they figure out a way to discard, sometimes they figure out a way to remove the white source. Sylvan safekeeper, thoughtseize, wasteland. Path does not even deal damage. Losing to a never ending hammer is annoying as they sit behind a constantly renewed Glacial chasm.
Path is unreliable because it is a two part solution, with conditional requirements.
Part A, Then Part B, After occurrence C, provided X+Y+Z haven't happened.
Alpine Moon is just Part A
Chain of Vapor is extremely similar to Path. I am not understating the strength of Path , or chain.
But I do not believe they are the universal balm , the panacea, in this case.
Chain of vapor would be incredible. . . . Except it is blue
I have used Searing Blood, and it was OK as a sideboard card in a couple of cases. Delver, and grixis and Elves was good.
Wasn't good when their creature did not wanna die.
I still prefer the full 4 Swiftspears, and Lavamancers just a bit slow. I like playing Barbarian rings too, so threshold is something I value. I am happy to keep 4 land hands, if one is a Barbarian ring. And I am very happy when I see 2 lands, and one is a barbarian ring. The rings just seem good.
I have used Searing Blood, and it was OK as a sideboard card in a couple of cases. Delver, and grixis and Elves was good.
Wasn't good when their creature did not wanna die.
I still prefer the full 4 Swiftspears, and Lavamancers just a bit slow. I like playing Barbarian rings too, so threshold is something I value. I am happy to keep 4 land hands, if one is a Barbarian ring. And I am very happy when I see 2 lands, and one is a barbarian ring. The rings just seem good.
I find Searing to be good in a huge portion of the matches in Legacy. Do I side them out from time to time, sure, but they usually stay in because it works so well against a huge number of legacy staple creatures.
As far a Lavamancer being slow, that's the point. Helps in grindier matches or against board stalls. With fetches and tons of instants and sorceries, it never seems to have a problem having ammo.
I guess I need to sleeve up burn again and give it a go. It's been a few months and have had a bad time piloting Shadow decks.
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Path to Exile can only work once the target is on the battlefield. The reason it specifically does not work great against Marit lage is because they get the land they want as part of their engine, and they are playing wasteland. They can see you have the ability to get a white, and path it. Sometimes they figure out a way to hide, sometimes they figure out a way to discard, sometimes they figure out a way to remove the white source. Sylvan safekeeper, thoughtseize, wasteland. Path does not even deal damage. Losing to a never ending hammer is annoying as they sit behind a constantly renewed Glacial chasm.
There is up's and down's with every silver bullet. Path seemed good because it cost 1 mana. You can leave an untapped fetchland in play (and taunt the wasteland) before popping it for the dual land.
Path is unreliable because it is a two part solution, with conditional requirements.
Part A, Then Part B, After occurrence C, provided X+Y+Z haven't happened.
Alpine Moon is just Part A
I'm not sure unreliable, is correct. If you know your up against Dark Depths, you should be playing your cards differently. Such as playing fecthlands without taping on the turn they come into play. You don't need to start channeling your burn power on turn 1.
Sure Alpine Moon is good against Dark Depths, but it won't take much for them to answer that card, especially when Alpine Moon is giving a non mana land many of any color.
Chain of Vapor is extremely similar to Path. I am not understating the strength of Path , or chain.
But I do not believe they are the universal balm , the panacea, in this case.
Chain of vapor would be incredible. . . . Except it is blue
The best thing about chain of vapor. play a Volcanic Island and your opponent thinks your playing Delver, and will assume you have a Force of Will in your hand.
I have used Searing Blood, and it was OK as a sideboard card in a couple of cases. Delver, and grixis and Elves was good.
Wasn't good when their creature did not wanna die.
I love Searing Blood and Searing Blaze almost equally. I usually main deck 4 of one or the other, or sometimes I'll mix them (2 each).
I still prefer the full 4 Swiftspears, and Lavamancers just a bit slow. I like playing Barbarian rings too, so threshold is something I value. I am happy to keep 4 land hands, if one is a Barbarian ring. And I am very happy when I see 2 lands, and one is a barbarian ring. The rings just seem good.
Depends on how you play. 4 Swiftspears are good if your into pounding. But not that good in longer games, that's where Lavamancers work.
My issue with swiftspear is... I love to play Eidolon on turn 2 (I do have my deck set up that I can drop him into play on turn 1). And if I play Swiftspear on turn 1, Eidolon on turn 2, Swifty is not being pumped until turn 3. [This is why I play with Vexing instead of Swifty].
The other problem about swifty (common problem) we have 20 lands and 12 creatures [4 Goblin Guides, 4 Swiftspears, 4 Eidolon] therefore we have 28 spells that pump swifty [remember 32 cards are non-swifty pumps and that's more then half the deck], also not every spell is played early -4 Price of Progress and -4 Fireblasts, these cards are often used later turn 3 or turn 4. So the ideal pump cards for swifty in the early game are Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lava Spike (which are 12 spells)... Rift Bolt kind of sucks and Skewer the Critics needs 1 mana bolt cards for you to play it before a swifty attack.
But then again, your not playing Eidolon in the early game... I think a good Swifty built has no Eidolon, but I feel that Eidolon makes burn awesome. But that's my feelings towards Swifty.
I've actually thought about taking out the Swiftspears for Light Up the Stage.
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I'm surprised magic geek didn't consider Pithing Needle already. It works against a lot of other good decks that use activated abilities like DNT, and you can just plop it down turn 1 and name Thespian's Stage to stop the combo. Win-win in my book, but yeah anyway if you're a serious competitive player, getting attached to a pet deck is just bad and if you know your local meta is stacked against you, the best way to adapt is to play something else. You play burn because there's certain decks it's very good against and if the meta is mostly those certain decks, burn is the best deck to exploit those deck's weaknesses.
Anyway, the main thing I want to post about is the new canopy lands that got spoiled in Modern Horizons. We now have access to up to 8 lands that we can sacrifice to draw us cards (Sunbaked Canyon and Fiery Islet), which is huge for us, as using our lands to draw extra cards shores up a major weakness with this deck. However, since they're nonbasic, make Price of Progress and Fireblast worse, and using them for mana costs us life (Negligible at first but if you get 2-3 of them out early, it adds up), I don't feel like 8 canopy lands is the right number for us. I wonder what everyone else who plays this deck thinks the right number should be?
My gut feeling is telling me that 4-6 is the sweet spot for us, but maybe someone here with more experience with the deck or more experience number crunching can give me a better or more statistically sound answer. I'm not worried about them not being fetchable, firstly because my deck is built with 20 mountains anyway, and secondly if I decide I want to put Grim Lavamancer back in my deck again, these canopy lands fuel him just like fetches do.
In fairness, you'd likely need 2 Needles - one for Stage and the other for Hexmage. Depths can usually make you discard them or blow them up with Decay/Trophy, though.
Same can be said for his pet card, Alpine Moon, though, so who knows what excuse he'll make this time.
Stage can be tutored/loamed for, Hexmage cannot so a depths player would have to draw her naturally. If you only have one needle, just hit the card that's more likely to show up.
Any thoughts on the new canopy lands and quantity we should run? That was the big meat and potatoes of my post actually and I think we should address it ASAP in order to further improve and evolve burn.
I agree with BasedFuster, and I like the new lands, and they have real problems with Price of Progress and especially Fireblast. Because of the Fireblast clash, I think decks that play them wont play the full 4 Fireblasts.
Fueling Lavamancer is good, they also help Barbarian Ring.
They are a minor improvement, as always, but they will become a standard part of the deck in a level similar to the use of Barbarian Ring. They are definitely good enough to be in basedeck. I would go for about 2 of them basedeck, replacing a land and a spell.
.
Pithing needles are effective, a bit.
Mostly I haven't commented on them because Magic has tens of thousands of cards, and not all of them occur to me when thinking about them. Hence me asking for your help, and Thank You, for suggesting Pithing Needle.
GPash, is right when he points out Pithing Needles are not great on turn 1 because Needle does not stop turn 2 Hexmage/Depths killing us. Not doing the job is an existential problem.
My pet card, Alpine Moon, doesn't get discarded because it gets cast on turn 1, just like an opening Pithing needle on the play.
Gpash, thanks for correcting me by pointing out Depths can "blow them up with Decay/Trophy". I have explicitly pointed that out, on this thread, repeatedly, on multiple pages, and as my opening statement. But, thanks.
GPash, "so who knows what excuse he'll make this time."
Nope, no excuses.
I beat Dark Depths last week, and I will beat Dark Depths again next time I play against it.
My Burn deck BEATS Dark Depths, when I play it right.
I just looked at a meta study of the latest big tournament, and burn is going about 1/3rd. Bad Times.
Against Dark Depths it went 0/6. (cant be arsed looking for it, besides, eh.)
ZERO wins from Six matches for the big boys, and My Burn Deck just beat it.
I so wanna play against Dark Depths, unlike every other Burn player. But, sure, you can just accept you lose, if you like.
Actually, please do not play Alpine Moon.
Why would anyone sideboard in Abrupt Decay or Ass Trophy against a Burn deck?
I'm looking to start playing Legacy Burn.
I saw the MTGGoldfish burn list, and was wondering if that might be a good place to start.
Thanks in advance,
DracomnisGT
Can you share what list you're talking about? Is it a budget Legacy burn list? I think it's very important for Burn to have all the pieces to be competitive, but you can still take advantage of fair blue decks at a local tournament if you don't have Guides or something. You won't be much weaker to combo than Burn already is. All the Bolt variants, PoP, Fireblast, Swift, Eidolon, and 19 mountains gets you close to a complete list. I think a budget Burn list would probably fare better in Modern than Legacy though.
What you are missing (or perhaps deliberately pretending to miss) is that the sideboard is not about beating specifically your hardest matchups, but improving your overall deck performance against the field as whole. If putting a card in your SB improves your results by 1% against 20% of your opponents, that is worth more than if the card improves your results by 10% against 1% of opponents--even if that opponent is one of your worst matchups. In other words: frequently a card that is pretty good in a lot of match-ups is much better than a card that is amazing in just a few (even if they're your worst).
That's the point: we're fine with not playing Moon because it only helps against very few decks, and that's a lot weaker than our other choices.
Now if your specific meta has enough Depths that you run into it constantly, you have two choices: heavily warp your deck to beat it while sacrificing a ton of points against everything else (what you're doing) or switch decks to something that has a better matchup against Depths naturally (which is what most of us would do).
Now, you say you have been able to make Burn a good choice in a Depths-heavy meta. I find that very interesting. Perhaps you can provide some statistics on the breakdown of decks in your local meta, your records against some of the dominant decks in that meta, and your current deck list. This would provide some useful information to judge the conclusion, test, and see if maybe there is a secret that we have all missed that would improve our own deck construction in the future.
Until there is some evidence though, the existing data makes us a bit skeptical.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Volcanic Fallout
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=21625&d=345202&f=LE
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=21563&d=344653&f=LE
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
2 Light Up the Stage
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=21101&d=340405&f=LE
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Volcanic Fallout
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=21248&d=341916&f=LE
1 Barbarian Ring
10 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
1 Light Up the Stage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
2 Alpine Moon
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shattering Spree
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Volcanic Fallout
Good to see someone else using Alpine Moon
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
2 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Rift Bolt
3 Skewer the Critics
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
11 Mountain
1 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ashen Rider
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-andrea-paroli-791762
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
9 Mountain
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyroblast
3 Destructive Revelry
1 Karakas
2 Exquisite Firecraft
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-smellsdank-787755
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Searing Blaze
1 Skullcrack
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
1 Light Up the Stage
2 Rift Bolt
2 Skewer the Critics
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Tormod's Crypt
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-james-spinelli-785686
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
1 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Lava Spike
4 Light Up the Stage
4 Skewer the Critics
1 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Exquisite Firecraft
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-pablo-merino-786923
4 Bomat Courier
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
4 Chain Lightning
4 Light Up the Stage
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-tanaka-tomohiro-784406
2 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Skewer the Critics
2 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
10 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Volcanic Fallout
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/burn-decklist-by-nico-sanguettoli-789218
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
1 Sudden Shock
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Alpine Moon
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic Fallout
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
1 Light Up the Stage
4 Rift Bolt
4 Skewer the Critics
1 Barbarian Ring
10 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Alpine Moon
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Shattering Spree
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Volcanic Fallout
3x Fireblast instead of 4 still seems the right call.
Bomat courier is interesting.
lord_darkview -> frequently a card that is pretty good in a lot of match-ups is much better than a card that is amazing in just a few (even if they're your worst).
I flat out disagree. So do almost all of the above winning decklists I posted above. Almost all have some incredibly narrow sideboard cards. Faerie Macabre & Ashen Rider & Grafdigger's Cage & Surgical Extraction - are all VERY narrow, and completely reasonable. All of those completely disagree with your point of view about what a sideboard is about.
Is Ashen Rider something a red deck is planning on sideboarding in regularly?
GPash -> you're the only one who is hellbent on beating Depths. You found the answer. Congrats. Good for you. Nobody else cares.
Three of the above Burn decklists play Alpine Moon.
Some of us lose to Dark Depths far less than you.
GPash -> Yeah, now Reanimator is mostly RB, so no FoW, and Burn still loses to Reanimator. It wasn't ever FoW that Burn feared out of Reanimator, so your argument is pointless. Reanimator isn't a FoW deck - it's a deck that has blue and thus has FoW. Burn beats the FAIR FoW decks. But then again, you've proven time and time again you don't know what fair means.
Decks playing FoW are not FoW decks.
Decks playing FoW are Fair decks, by definition, except they aren't.
Seems reasonable. Thanks.
Have you considered typing positive, or useful words?
Maybe something like Karakas is regularly seeing sideboard play in burn, in part because of DD.
Karakas also helps a lot against Griselbrand. (Maze & Wak Wak too)
Goblin Cratermaker - Destoys 20/20 colourless creatures - I like it.
Wow. It also stops Emrukal! cool!
If you can't distinguish between a FoW deck (control/Miracles) and a deck that happens to be running blue and hence FoW (UB reanimator), I can't help you. Maybe that's the reason you can't win a 15 person event. All makes sense now.
Oh, just discovered the "Ignore User" option. Perfect.
I'm talking about the list that SaffronOlive did for Budget Magic at the following link
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/budget-magic-99-134-tix-legacy-burn
Any and all help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
DracomnisGT
Thanks so much for the quick reply and the information!
I'll try to build the list with the changes you suggested.
Thanks again,
DracomnisGT
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
Then you start to see some differentiation among lists. Some people still run Flame Rift, whereas others have replaced it with Skewer the Critics. Some lists run maindeck Sulfuric Vortex, whereas others now run Light Up the Stage. 18-20 basic Mountains seems par for the course, unless you're running Grim Lavamancer and Searing Blaze, in which case you'll want to add fetchlands.
Sideboard is really dependent on how your meta looks, but typically there is a combination of anti-combo cards (Pyrostatic Pillar, Red Blasts), anti-aggro cards (Searing Blood/Blaze), graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, Grafdigger's Cage), anti-Batterskull/Chalice of the Void cards (Smash to Smithereens, Shattering Spree, Abrade), etc.
Hey Wow, Legacy burn is playing against Dark Depths twice. Neat. Two of the 4 match ups are against my nemesis.
GB depths
1) 1 land, get sinkholed, never gets to 2 land - dead
2) goes long, sulphuric vortex for slow win
3) small pox, chalice lock for 1, mana flood, price of progress for the WIN !
ah, . . sure - their deck failed to do what it is meant to. No combo in any of the 3 games.
Lands
'I hate this deck so much' if only I draw a 2nd land. . .
1) Maze of Ith, tabernacle, stall, Glacial chasm, - crop rotation for dark depths, stuff up the combo - win.
2) Bad play, bad deck, no 2nd glacial chasm, no combo - WIN!
- 5 games, no combo
Sure, I can beat Dark Depths, when played by bad players that get horribly unlucky.
That's hilarious !
Try playing against it when they have a 20/20 on turn 2.
X X X
GPash is right in suggesting Goblin Guide is a good choice, but, a playset will cost as much as the entire rest of the deck.
Each Goblin guide is $25 each.
GPash is also bang on when describing the basic card list of the deck.
( I love the fact GPash won't see me agreeing with him. )
A much cheaper alternative is Bomat Courier, at $0.50 each
They also give a surprising long game, and don't have the downside of GG.
Also, if you are playing a budget version you need to be more reliable, so including a couple of Barabarian rings is probably a good idea.
Barbarian Ring is about $0.80 each.
Sonic burst is also a great way to increase your reliability, but does reduce speed. And costs $0.20.
Dark Depths... The Marit Lage token is a creature token. Consuming Sinkhole targets a land creature
[such as: Mishra's Factory - Assembly-Worker]
I strongly believe if Dark Depths is too much of an issue, it would be best to splash. White Path to Exile and Blue Chain of Vapor would be good splash cards. I like Chain of Vapor more because it hits other non-land targets and the chain effect is rarely good against us, too.
Also, I've backed down to 2 Swiftspears as I find 2 Lavamancers are good.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Path to Exile can only work once the target is on the battlefield. The reason it specifically does not work great against Marit lage is because they get the land they want as part of their engine, and they are playing wasteland. They can see you have the ability to get a white, and path it. Sometimes they figure out a way to hide, sometimes they figure out a way to discard, sometimes they figure out a way to remove the white source. Sylvan safekeeper, thoughtseize, wasteland. Path does not even deal damage. Losing to a never ending hammer is annoying as they sit behind a constantly renewed Glacial chasm.
Path is unreliable because it is a two part solution, with conditional requirements.
Part A, Then Part B, After occurrence C, provided X+Y+Z haven't happened.
Alpine Moon is just Part A
Chain of Vapor is extremely similar to Path. I am not understating the strength of Path , or chain.
But I do not believe they are the universal balm , the panacea, in this case.
Chain of vapor would be incredible. . . . Except it is blue
I have used Searing Blood, and it was OK as a sideboard card in a couple of cases. Delver, and grixis and Elves was good.
Wasn't good when their creature did not wanna die.
I still prefer the full 4 Swiftspears, and Lavamancers just a bit slow. I like playing Barbarian rings too, so threshold is something I value. I am happy to keep 4 land hands, if one is a Barbarian ring. And I am very happy when I see 2 lands, and one is a barbarian ring. The rings just seem good.
I find Searing to be good in a huge portion of the matches in Legacy. Do I side them out from time to time, sure, but they usually stay in because it works so well against a huge number of legacy staple creatures.
As far a Lavamancer being slow, that's the point. Helps in grindier matches or against board stalls. With fetches and tons of instants and sorceries, it never seems to have a problem having ammo.
I guess I need to sleeve up burn again and give it a go. It's been a few months and have had a bad time piloting Shadow decks.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Yep, I sort of said that too
There is up's and down's with every silver bullet. Path seemed good because it cost 1 mana. You can leave an untapped fetchland in play (and taunt the wasteland) before popping it for the dual land.
I'm not sure unreliable, is correct. If you know your up against Dark Depths, you should be playing your cards differently. Such as playing fecthlands without taping on the turn they come into play. You don't need to start channeling your burn power on turn 1.
Sure Alpine Moon is good against Dark Depths, but it won't take much for them to answer that card, especially when Alpine Moon is giving a non mana land many of any color.
The best thing about chain of vapor. play a Volcanic Island and your opponent thinks your playing Delver, and will assume you have a Force of Will in your hand.
I love Searing Blood and Searing Blaze almost equally. I usually main deck 4 of one or the other, or sometimes I'll mix them (2 each).
Depends on how you play. 4 Swiftspears are good if your into pounding. But not that good in longer games, that's where Lavamancers work.
My issue with swiftspear is... I love to play Eidolon on turn 2 (I do have my deck set up that I can drop him into play on turn 1). And if I play Swiftspear on turn 1, Eidolon on turn 2, Swifty is not being pumped until turn 3. [This is why I play with Vexing instead of Swifty].
The other problem about swifty (common problem) we have 20 lands and 12 creatures [4 Goblin Guides, 4 Swiftspears, 4 Eidolon] therefore we have 28 spells that pump swifty [remember 32 cards are non-swifty pumps and that's more then half the deck], also not every spell is played early -4 Price of Progress and -4 Fireblasts, these cards are often used later turn 3 or turn 4. So the ideal pump cards for swifty in the early game are Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Lava Spike (which are 12 spells)... Rift Bolt kind of sucks and Skewer the Critics needs 1 mana bolt cards for you to play it before a swifty attack.
But then again, your not playing Eidolon in the early game... I think a good Swifty built has no Eidolon, but I feel that Eidolon makes burn awesome. But that's my feelings towards Swifty.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
I like Light Up the Stage in modern so it might be a good card in Legacy.
Anyway, the main thing I want to post about is the new canopy lands that got spoiled in Modern Horizons. We now have access to up to 8 lands that we can sacrifice to draw us cards (Sunbaked Canyon and Fiery Islet), which is huge for us, as using our lands to draw extra cards shores up a major weakness with this deck. However, since they're nonbasic, make Price of Progress and Fireblast worse, and using them for mana costs us life (Negligible at first but if you get 2-3 of them out early, it adds up), I don't feel like 8 canopy lands is the right number for us. I wonder what everyone else who plays this deck thinks the right number should be?
My gut feeling is telling me that 4-6 is the sweet spot for us, but maybe someone here with more experience with the deck or more experience number crunching can give me a better or more statistically sound answer. I'm not worried about them not being fetchable, firstly because my deck is built with 20 mountains anyway, and secondly if I decide I want to put Grim Lavamancer back in my deck again, these canopy lands fuel him just like fetches do.
Same can be said for his pet card, Alpine Moon, though, so who knows what excuse he'll make this time.
Any thoughts on the new canopy lands and quantity we should run? That was the big meat and potatoes of my post actually and I think we should address it ASAP in order to further improve and evolve burn.
Fueling Lavamancer is good, they also help Barbarian Ring.
They are a minor improvement, as always, but they will become a standard part of the deck in a level similar to the use of Barbarian Ring. They are definitely good enough to be in basedeck. I would go for about 2 of them basedeck, replacing a land and a spell.
.
Pithing needles are effective, a bit.
Mostly I haven't commented on them because Magic has tens of thousands of cards, and not all of them occur to me when thinking about them. Hence me asking for your help, and Thank You, for suggesting Pithing Needle.
GPash, is right when he points out Pithing Needles are not great on turn 1 because Needle does not stop turn 2 Hexmage/Depths killing us. Not doing the job is an existential problem.
My pet card, Alpine Moon, doesn't get discarded because it gets cast on turn 1, just like an opening Pithing needle on the play.
Gpash, thanks for correcting me by pointing out Depths can "blow them up with Decay/Trophy". I have explicitly pointed that out, on this thread, repeatedly, on multiple pages, and as my opening statement. But, thanks.
GPash, "so who knows what excuse he'll make this time."
Nope, no excuses.
I beat Dark Depths last week, and I will beat Dark Depths again next time I play against it.
My Burn deck BEATS Dark Depths, when I play it right.
I just looked at a meta study of the latest big tournament, and burn is going about 1/3rd. Bad Times.
Against Dark Depths it went 0/6. (cant be arsed looking for it, besides, eh.)
ZERO wins from Six matches for the big boys, and My Burn Deck just beat it.
I so wanna play against Dark Depths, unlike every other Burn player. But, sure, you can just accept you lose, if you like.
Actually, please do not play Alpine Moon.
Why would anyone sideboard in Abrupt Decay or Ass Trophy against a Burn deck?