On the source, people have generally found young pyromancer to be more effective in a grixis tempo build as a pseudo empty the warrens. When your disruption is proactive, you get a lot of little 1/1's out. Burn does not have the disruption or protection necessary to do the following things with pyromancer:
1) protect him long enough to give inevitability
2) resolve him
3) make use of his tokens.
Kiln fiend is probably the two drop to be runnin if you want to have a combo-like clock. Pyromancer just doesn't fit out deck because we lack cheap proactive disruption.
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He did exactly what I wanted him to do against TES, Show and Tell, and Belcher.
Just want to let you guys know he races turn 3 griselbrands, and 18 goblins.
10/10 would run again.
Subpar against tempo decks, though.
Do you have a list anywhere? I lived running UR with kiln fiend and I have been looking to get into legacy. Burn, with the addition of kiln fiend seems like an attractive option!
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You make your own PoP hurt you more with your duals so you can squeeze in Bump? Hm... If you are going to go that route why no Bob?
looking at this now, PoP probably isnt the best card for that slot. I feel like bob wouldnt be as beneficial for the deck as possibly flame rift or sulfuric vortex though?
That's burn with the Grim Lavamancers replaced with Deathrites. I'd post your list on the burn thread instead of here cause they'd be able to give you much more constructive advice.
At first glance you may want to replace Wasteland with mountains and consider adding sulfuric vortexes or skullcracks. A single large lifelink attacker like a batterskull can cause you to lose the game outright. Also remember if you only run a single mountain, a resolved PoP can kill you as fast as your opponent.
I'd replace Breaking Point with Anarchy or something that can deal with Leyline of Sanctity. As a general rule 'choice' effects like Breaking Point and Browbeat are usually bad, the exception being Vexing Devil.
I do like your list though. I've toyed with a R/B burn that also runs Death's Shadow (at least in the SB). I would replace a Searing Blaze with another Fireblast though. Fireblast is such an essential card that has won me so many games at least a turn earlier than I should have.
for the mainboard then possibly sub in flame rift for the PoP and also run 4 fireblast and only 3 searing blaze? also, sideboard would contain:
vexing shushers
ensnaring bridge
pyroblast
mindbreak trap
shattering spree or smash to smithereens?
skullcrack or sulfuric vortex??
looking at this now, PoP probably isnt the best card for that slot. I feel like bob wouldnt be as beneficial for the deck as possibly flame rift or sulfuric vortex though?
Dark Confidant is not for typical Burn decks. It disrupts the tempo of our turns. It would seem like he'd be good because he feeds our hand at low risk of killing us. But he forces you to waste a turn and mana paying for a body with no haste that you don't want to block with. The incredibly consistent redundancy of Burn actually renders him far less necessary than one might initially imagine. Burn already wins consistently turn 4/5. It doesn't really need to draw MORE cards at the cost of losing a turn of slinging Bolts at the opponent.
Magma Jet is better if you're dead set on wanting that sort of effect. And I consider Jet a borderline card.
Hello fellow red mages. Just managed to cash at the Minneapolis Star City Games Legacy Open and I thought I would share my experiences with the deck. There were 301 players which meant nine rounds of Swiss. I went 6-3 and finished in 41st place.
Before the tournament I was going to play either Burn or Goblins. After play testing and observing the recent trend towards fetches and decks that run almost zero basic lands I opted for Burn.
This is exactly the kind of deck I wanted to play against. A three color deck with almost no basic lands that uses Thoughtsieze and Dark Confidant. Needless to say Goblin Guide and Price of Progress as well as Flame Rifts did a lot of damage in these games. I think I may have boarded in the Sulfuric Vortex's, but never saw them and didn't need them.
One of the games he had to keep a Goyf at home because he was at 7 and there was a Hellspark Elemental in the graveyard because of a Hymn to Tourach he played earlier.
I talked to this guy throughout the tournament and he ended up cashing at 5-2-2. I was happy to see he made some money.
1-0
Round 2: Punishing Loam 0-2
Game one he cast a Chalice of the Void set at one on his second turn. On his fourth turn he cast another Chalice and set it at two. Needless to say, I was locked out and scooped.
Game two I mulled to five and only found one land. He cast Mox Diamond and Thalia on his first turn. I didn't find a second land until turn four or five and had to chump block with Goblin Guides to maintain my life total. I finally drew a second land and managed to kill the Thalia, but then a Scavenging Ooze showed up, gobbled my Guides and then my life total.
I think this gentleman ended up cashing as well.
1-1
Round Three: Tezzeret Affinity 2-1
Game one I got a first turn Goblin Guide, and proceeded to burn a Frogmite and a Memnite so he couldn't equip them with Cranial Plating. By the time his Arcbound Ravager arrived his life total was low enough to burn him out. The second game he played a Tezzeret which I managed to kill, but then he played a second one the following turn. A Cranial Plated creature hit me for ten and a Tezzeret ultimate did the rest of the work. The third game I got double Goblin Guide. My opponent was only able to draw two land this game so it was kind of anti-climatic as I Fireblasted for the win.
2-1
Round 4: Stoneblade 2-0
Once again the exact kind of deck I want to play. Tri-color, slow, durdly with almost no basic land and little creature board presence. These games went extremely fast. I boarded in Ensnaring Bridge, Sulfuric Vortex and Smash to Smithereens, but didn't really need them.
3-1
Round 5: Ad Nauseum Tendrils 2-1
Game one I killed him on turn four. Double Guide, Lightning Bolt, Flame Rift and Fireblast get there. A rare game one win. I side in Faerie Macabre and Pithing Needle. Saw the Faerie game two, but it didn't do me much good. He sculpted his hand and Tendriled me out after casting a Past in Flames to build his storm count.
The third game I had him at 12 with a Guide in play and a suspended Rift Bolt. He obviously felt the pressure and tried to go off. With the storm count at 9 he Tendriled me for 18 sending my life total to 2 and he went to 28.
It took me about 6 turns to whittle away his life total and there was an extremely tense Ad Nauseum where he must have drawn around 12-14 cards, but he couldn't find the cards he needed to go off again. When he cast Past in Flames I was able to discard my Faerie Macabre and remove his Tendrils of Agony from the graveyard and that was game.
Unfortunately, 15 minutes after the match was over, with results turned in, he pointed out that I cast a Price of Progress that turn which would have increased the storm count to a lethal 10. To be honest, that turn was such a flurry of activity I have no idea if I did or not. I went from being euphoric that I was able to win one of my toughest match ups to feeling like a schmuck for cheating.
Thankfully he finished 6-3 and was able to cash.
4-1
Round 6: Merfolk 0-2
Game one I lose the die roll. My draw doesn't have any creatures, but I'm holding three land and four burns spells. One Lightning Bolt, one Flame Rift and two Price of Progress. I think I'm in great shape until my opponent leads with basic island and Cursecatcher. So now I basically have two burn spells and 5 land. I have to waste what precious burn I do draw killing lords and shortly thereafter become overwhelmed. Game two I try to use burn to kill some of his lords but he has two Force of Wills and a Daze to stop me. His Lords become large and in charge and send me to my second loss.
I didn't feel too bad later because this guy finished as the number one seed after the swiss rounds.
4-2
Round 7: Goblins 0-2
Game one I get my opponent down to five life and I'm at thirteen life. I have three land in play and I'm holding a Fireblast and a Lava Spike. I pass turn and he untaps with a Mogg War Marshall, Goblin Warchief and a couple of tokens in play. He plays a Chieftan and another Mogg War Marshall representing lethal. I could have Fireblasted the Chieftan but that would have left me with only one land. Either way I was dead so I scooped.
The second game I get him to six life and I'm hiding behind an Ensnaring Bridge with fifteen life. The next six turns I proceed to draw five lands and a Hellspark Elemental. He chains a couple of Ringleaders into Tuk Tuk Scrapper and the hordes come rushing in.
The game ended with me having eight lands in play. I'm going to blame it on the deck check we had at the beginning of the round and just move on.
4-3
Well as you can see the tide really started to turn and I was starting to recognize some of the deficiencies in the deck design. Before the tournament I was willing to play creatures that provided instantaneous damage like Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elementals. In hindsight, considering how diverse the Legacy meta-game is (I never played the same deck achetype twice), it would have been better to play a mix of creatures that cause immediate damage and others that establish board presence like Grim Lavamancer. Also, against decks that play lots of basic land, the deck can lose a lot of it's explosive punch.
Round 8: American Delver
This guy was super nice and he had a sweet foiled deck. Unfortunately, this is the kind of deck my deck was built to destroy. Three colors, no basic lands and running Force of Wills. Game one he cast a Delver that he was not able to fllip and a couple Young Pyromancers. I was able to burn away his creatures and I think I hit him with a Price of Progress for six and an unblocked Keldon Marauders. Eleven damage from two cards is just too much damage to give a burn a deck.
Game two he had to mulligan on the play. This game started with a Goblin Guide and a flurry of one casting cost three damage spells. I think he Forced a Flame Rift and played a Young Pyromancer, but that was the extent of his action.
5-3
Round 9: Show and Tell 2-0
Game one I kill him on turn four after he mulled to five cards. Game two I side in Sulfuric Vortex, Confusion in the Ranks, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle. He mulls to four and only plays one land the whole game. I only see one sideboard card, Sulfuric Vortex, but that and a Goblin Guide plus some one mana, three damage spells do the job.
6-3
If I were to play in a large tournament like this again I would run this version instead:
Finally, I would just like to thank Star City for running such a large event smoothly. If one comes close to your town I highly recommend attending. Also, I would like to thank all of my opponents. Every person I played against was extremely nice and professional. I wish they all played at my local shop.
Good job on the cash and I don't think you should feel like a schmuck. It's the storm player's fault for not catching that error, he's the one that should be handling the storm count and it's not your job to help him win. Still can't believe you beat a storm player in the first game!
Just read the new primer, good job. A couple of notes:
1) You note that Rift Bolt gets around Counterbalance and Chalice when hardcast, but it still has a CMC of 3 when suspended, you don't have to hardcast it.
2) Some further land analysis: A lot of the Lavamancer+fetch builds run slightly high on land because the fetches can also fuel the Lavamancer, in a pinch. That's why most of those run 20-21 lands. In a non-Lavamancer build, I think less is better. The calculations in the Primer are based on getting 2 or 3 lands in your opener, but that's not all that I want - I want to have enough juice to kill on turn 4 pretty consistently, which means I ideally want to draw 3 lands in my first 10 cards, and I'm disappointed to see 5.
With that in mind, the odds of drawing 2 or 3 lands in your opening hand AND getting between 2 and 4 land total in the first 10 cards work out like this (assuming no fetchlands):
I am not sure about the Grim Lavamancer - Kiln Fiend split. I am just trying to get into Legacy and would appreciate some feedback on the merits of both ( currently do not have fetches to feed Lavamancer).
Also, I am certain my sideboard could use some work (I would blame this to me being somewhat unfamiliar with the format).
Thanks in advance!
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You actually want 4 kiln fiend, 4 grim, and no hellspark elemental.
hellspark elemental feeds deathrite shaman, which is not something anyone wants to be doing as of late.
Grim lavamancer kills deathrite shaman, which is definitely something to be doing as of late.
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I brought in Pithing Needle to stop their LED's. The goal is to slow them down for one turn because sometimes that is all I need to kill them. It also can keep them off red mana. They usually have the black and blue mana from their lands, but they get the red mana for Past in Flames or Burning Wish from their artifacts.
I know it's not the most ideal plan, but to be honest I was willing to sacrifice the matchup heading into the tournament. In these big tournaments, the meta game is so diverse, you have to pick your poison. There are not enough slots in your board to cover every matchup and I was not willing to devote half my sideboard to beating a deck I might see only once in the tournament.
The combo decks I was willing to board for were Re-Animator and Show and Tell variants. Playtesting showed me that sometimes I could race Storm, which happened game one. You get their life total so low that they can't Ad Nauseum. Other times you put so much pressure on, they have to go off prematurely, which happened game three.
I freely admit it's not a great plan, but when you apply that much pressure to their life total you only usually need one piece of hate to break the deck. In my case, it was Faerie Macabre.
As for Leyline, Show and Tell has no way to cast it during the game. Usually it's in their hand at the beginning of the game and they start with it in play. When they Show and Tell, Confusion in the Ranks sees Leyline and you get to exchange enchantments. Now you have a Leyline and they have a Confusion in the Ranks.
They usually put some hideous monster in play off the Show and Tell and then you untap, play a Hellspark Elemental and trade it for an Emrakul or Griselbrand. To add insult to injury the Hellspark Elemental goes to the graveyard at the end of the turn. Oh, let the hilarity ensue.
As for Sulfuric Vortex in the main, it was horrible in playtesting against the aggro matchups. Sulfuric Vortex and Flame Rift do alot of damage to yourself so I opted to put it in the side.
Playtesting showed the Jitte/Batterskull decks were almost always too slow to matter. You just have to burn their Deathrite or Stoneforge Mystic and the earliest they were going to be playing a Batterskull was turn five. By that time, they were getting within Flame Rift/Fireblast range. Now let's make no mistake because you are correct, I did board Sulfuric Vortex in every time I saw a Deathrite or Stoneforge Mystic because it makes the match up even easier.
Griselbrand, on the other hand, is a different animal. If my opponent gets a turn two Griselbrand I'm most likely dead anyway. The Vortex stops the life gain, but now I'm racing 9 damage a turn and Vortex is not going to come down until my third turn which most likely is going to be too slow.
My strategy going into the tournament was to race my opponents game one with the fastest burn deck possible and then go to my board game two to disrupt the combo decks that were faster than me.
Overall, it worked well. I was able to beat all of the slow, durdly, tri-color decks and I was lucky enough to race both combo decks game one and have just enough disruption from the sideboard to win the second games, although I will admit my poor Show and Tell opponent had some dreadful mulligans.
But that is what Burn does. It forces your opponents to mulligan more often because Burn is so fast and consistent. They have to literally ask themselves when looking at their opening seven, can I survive with this hand until turn four? If not, they have to mulligan. Considering how few land most Legacy decks run, a mull to six can oftentimes lead to a mull to five. My opponents did not win a single game when they mulled to five.
My only regret was not having a continuous board presence for the aggro matchups. That's why I wish I would have had Grim Lavamancer for decks like Merfolk.
Also, my Hellsparks were good all day. I think an Ooze ate one, but no Deathrites were able to eat them. I either bolted the Deathrite on sight or cast it immediately from the graveyard right after Deathrite came into play. Hellsparks are literally two burn spells instead of one, are still useful after Hymns and Thoughtseizes and the trample was significant in a world full 2/1 and 1/2 creatures.
I brought in Pithing Needle to stop their LED's. The goal is to slow them down for one turn because sometimes that is all I need to kill them. It also can keep them off red mana. They usually have the black and blue mana from their lands, but they get the red mana for Past in Flames or Burning Wish from their artifacts.
In that case, you're fortunate that your opponent didn't read the gamestate closely enough. Lion's Eye Diamond has a mana ability. Pithing Needle doesn't hit those.
If you are playing Pithing Needle on such narrow reasoning I think Chalice of the Void on zero is a much better play, since it'll hit their other mana rocks too. Plus its free.
I'm working on a Lavamancer build, and was fine with 19 lands, but do you put in more fetchs when upping to 20 - 21 or plain mountains?
Yeah, sadly I found out Pithing Needle didn't stop Lion's Eye Diamond until I handed in my decklist. I asked a couple of people before the tournament. Some said it did, some said it didn't. Thanks for the clarification. At least it does stop Sneak Attack and Planeswalkers so it still has some applications, but not the intended one for the Storm matchup. Thankfully I never drew it in my sideboarded games.
I do like the Chalice for zero though and since I consider the Searing Blazes overkill (the deck tends to already do well against lists with creatures, especially with Grim Lavamancers) maybe the Chalices would fit nicely in the sideboard there. Thanks for suggestion.
I played with 21 lands. The main reason being while I was playtesting I was having to mulligan far too often with 19. Burn is a deck, in my opinion, that does not mulligan well. Every card is a precious resource and having to mulligan can delay your kill by one or two turns. After going to 21 lands I was able to keep a lot more hands.
Also, there were several times during play testing where I would have three land, two 2 mana cost spells and a Fireblast. I would have to Fireblast, leaving me with one land, and I would never find another land to cast my remaining 2 mana cost spells. Once I went to 21 I was able to find that second land after a Fireblast and keep the train rolling.
I played with 21 lands. The main reason being while I was playtesting I was having to mulligan far too often with 19. Burn is a deck, in my opinion, that does not mulligan well. Every card is a precious resource and having to mulligan can delay your kill by one or two turns. After going to 21 lands I was able to keep a lot more hands.
Also, there were several times during play testing where I would have three land, two 2 mana cost spells and a Fireblast. I would have to Fireblast, leaving me with one land, and I would never find another land to cast my remaining 2 mana cost spells. Once I went to 21 I was able to find that second land after a Fireblast and keep the train rolling.
I can't make up my mind, I'm at 19 lands right now, I'll try two more fetches. I was actually thinking about taking this deck to gen con just for the heck of it.
I am a strong believer of 20 lands! It's perfect, because we occasionally want to cast three drops!
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Don't be gentle, I like it rough... on a serious note though, I don't have too much experience with burn, and the event I'm attending will be the first serious Legacy event I've been to, so any advice is appreciated. My reasoning for splashing white started with what I felt to be better sideboard options. Then since I was running white I traded out flame rift for Boros Charm, and Helix for lavaspike, no real good reason for the lavaspike trade, I just don't like the card. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm not too worried about agression since thats what the deck does, I just don't like to be locked out of a game e.g. Iona, Chalice on 1/2, Counter/Top, and to some extent Layline of Sanctity. Rip away.
P.S.
I'm also thinking -1 land, -1 hellspark, +2 searing blaze
Also for storm hate what would be better Pyrostatic Pillar, or Mindbreak trap? I like pillar better since you can still use it for some other matchups, but its just such a bad top deck in my opinion. Am I missing anything here?
Don't be gentle, I like it rough... on a serious note though, I don't have too much experience with burn, and the event I'm attending will be the first serious Legacy event I've been to, so any advice is appreciated. My reasoning for splashing white started with what I felt to be better sideboard options. Then since I was running white I traded out flame rift for Boros Charm, and Helix for lavaspike, no real good reason for the lavaspike trade, I just don't like the card. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm not too worried about agression since thats what the deck does, I just don't like to be locked out of a game e.g. Iona, Chalice on 1/2, Counter/Top, and to some extent Layline of Sanctity. Rip away.
P.S.
I'm also thinking -1 land, -1 hellspark, +2 searing blaze
monovfox brought up a good point about Hellspark Elementalin a PM to me: This card does nothing to feed Grim Lavamancer since we want to use the unearth ability, but it is the perfect target for the oppositions Deathrite Shaman. They get rid of the unearth ability and Hellspark becomes nothing more than a one-time-use blockable 3/1 and it gives them life through Deathrite, making our job more difficult.
Just some food for thought.
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I had no problem with Deathrite eating my Hellsparks. Deathrite died on site the two times I played against them. I did lose one to a Scavenging Ooze though. Hellspark's literally are two burn spells in one. Red doesn't get card draw so this is the next best thing. Hellsparks ensure the deck never runs out of gas, because believe or not sometimes the games can go a little long. Also, getting Hymned with Hellsparks in hand is priceless.
I think the white splash is a bad idea TBH. In most matchups, you don't care about your own life total. Leaning on Lightning Helix/Boros Charm will slow your clock compared to Lava Spike/Flame Rift, and you'll lose that extra life right back if you use Price. Also, you're pretty screwed against Wasteland, especially with those fetches that don't get mountains. Oblivion Ring is definitely not worth the splash, since you won't hit 3 mana consistently (or at least not early enough). Running Smash to Smithereens for artifacts and Ensnaring Bridge for Show & Tell decks is just a better plan than O-Ring.
monovfox brought up a good point about Hellspark Elementalin a PM to me: This card does nothing to feed Grim Lavamancer since we want to use the unearth ability, but it is the perfect target for the oppositions Deathrite Shaman. They get rid of the unearth ability and Hellspark becomes nothing more than a one-time-use blockable 3/1 and it gives them life through Deathrite, making our job more difficult.
Just some food for thought.
I have to disagree with this, there are few creatures that has to be dealt with, deathrite is deffinitely one of them, in the limited testing I've done with the deck so far, burning away a deathrite is always the right move as his ramp is amazing early on, and against us he doubles as life gain. Regardless if I'm running hellsparks or not, deathrite will not live to tap. That being said, hymn is another reason for me to run hellspark.
rujasu,
Helix and Charm are in the deck since they are available, the life gain really isn't that important I'm not depending on it to balance out price of progress, or survive my own fetch lands or anything, I chose it over lavaspike since it can target creatures, the life gain is just nice, since I'm splashing white why not? And its pretty awesome in the mirror, well it makes that match up less hideous since your price of progress is usless, and theirs is weak.
On to O'ring, this is reason number one that I'm going with 21 lands, so that I can consistently hit 3 lands on turn 3, its an answer to everything that shuts this deck out, and once you remove those threats all that is left is inevitability, Wasteland sucks, I understand running nonbasics will be going against virtual card advantage in that you'll give them something to hit, but thats why I'm also running 21 lands, losing one or two won't hurt as much as a 19 land base.
And of course the white fetches will be replaced if I can find some more red ones to borrow.
Now as far as sideboards go, mine really isn't tuned at all at this point, but O'ring is awesome cause it opens up many slots to run what ever else. Thanks for bringing up ensnaring bridge, I'll have to think on that some more.
Well thanks guys for the input soo far, I'll keep these comments in mind, since I'm still gonna tweak this deck up untill Sunday!
1) protect him long enough to give inevitability
2) resolve him
3) make use of his tokens.
Kiln fiend is probably the two drop to be runnin if you want to have a combo-like clock. Pyromancer just doesn't fit out deck because we lack cheap proactive disruption.
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Do you have a list anywhere? I lived running UR with kiln fiend and I have been looking to get into legacy. Burn, with the addition of kiln fiend seems like an attractive option!
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
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Modern
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looking at this now, PoP probably isnt the best card for that slot. I feel like bob wouldnt be as beneficial for the deck as possibly flame rift or sulfuric vortex though?
for the mainboard then possibly sub in flame rift for the PoP and also run 4 fireblast and only 3 searing blaze? also, sideboard would contain:
vexing shushers
ensnaring bridge
pyroblast
mindbreak trap
shattering spree or smash to smithereens?
skullcrack or sulfuric vortex??
Dark Confidant is not for typical Burn decks. It disrupts the tempo of our turns. It would seem like he'd be good because he feeds our hand at low risk of killing us. But he forces you to waste a turn and mana paying for a body with no haste that you don't want to block with. The incredibly consistent redundancy of Burn actually renders him far less necessary than one might initially imagine. Burn already wins consistently turn 4/5. It doesn't really need to draw MORE cards at the cost of losing a turn of slinging Bolts at the opponent.
Magma Jet is better if you're dead set on wanting that sort of effect. And I consider Jet a borderline card.
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Before the tournament I was going to play either Burn or Goblins. After play testing and observing the recent trend towards fetches and decks that run almost zero basic lands I opted for Burn.
Here's the list I played for the tournament:
21 Mountain
Creatures
4 x Goblin Guide
4 x Hellspark Elemental
3 x Keldon Marauders
Spells
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Price of Progress
4 x Flame Rift
4 x Fireblast
2 x Faerie Macabre
2 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Smash to Smithereens
2 x Sulfuric Vortex
2 x Confusion in the Ranks
1 x Humility
Round 1: Punishing Jund 2-0
This is exactly the kind of deck I wanted to play against. A three color deck with almost no basic lands that uses Thoughtsieze and Dark Confidant. Needless to say Goblin Guide and Price of Progress as well as Flame Rifts did a lot of damage in these games. I think I may have boarded in the Sulfuric Vortex's, but never saw them and didn't need them.
One of the games he had to keep a Goyf at home because he was at 7 and there was a Hellspark Elemental in the graveyard because of a Hymn to Tourach he played earlier.
I talked to this guy throughout the tournament and he ended up cashing at 5-2-2. I was happy to see he made some money.
1-0
Round 2: Punishing Loam 0-2
Game one he cast a Chalice of the Void set at one on his second turn. On his fourth turn he cast another Chalice and set it at two. Needless to say, I was locked out and scooped.
Game two I mulled to five and only found one land. He cast Mox Diamond and Thalia on his first turn. I didn't find a second land until turn four or five and had to chump block with Goblin Guides to maintain my life total. I finally drew a second land and managed to kill the Thalia, but then a Scavenging Ooze showed up, gobbled my Guides and then my life total.
I think this gentleman ended up cashing as well.
1-1
Round Three: Tezzeret Affinity 2-1
Game one I got a first turn Goblin Guide, and proceeded to burn a Frogmite and a Memnite so he couldn't equip them with Cranial Plating. By the time his Arcbound Ravager arrived his life total was low enough to burn him out. The second game he played a Tezzeret which I managed to kill, but then he played a second one the following turn. A Cranial Plated creature hit me for ten and a Tezzeret ultimate did the rest of the work. The third game I got double Goblin Guide. My opponent was only able to draw two land this game so it was kind of anti-climatic as I Fireblasted for the win.
2-1
Round 4: Stoneblade 2-0
Once again the exact kind of deck I want to play. Tri-color, slow, durdly with almost no basic land and little creature board presence. These games went extremely fast. I boarded in Ensnaring Bridge, Sulfuric Vortex and Smash to Smithereens, but didn't really need them.
3-1
Round 5: Ad Nauseum Tendrils 2-1
Game one I killed him on turn four. Double Guide, Lightning Bolt, Flame Rift and Fireblast get there. A rare game one win. I side in Faerie Macabre and Pithing Needle. Saw the Faerie game two, but it didn't do me much good. He sculpted his hand and Tendriled me out after casting a Past in Flames to build his storm count.
The third game I had him at 12 with a Guide in play and a suspended Rift Bolt. He obviously felt the pressure and tried to go off. With the storm count at 9 he Tendriled me for 18 sending my life total to 2 and he went to 28.
It took me about 6 turns to whittle away his life total and there was an extremely tense Ad Nauseum where he must have drawn around 12-14 cards, but he couldn't find the cards he needed to go off again. When he cast Past in Flames I was able to discard my Faerie Macabre and remove his Tendrils of Agony from the graveyard and that was game.
Unfortunately, 15 minutes after the match was over, with results turned in, he pointed out that I cast a Price of Progress that turn which would have increased the storm count to a lethal 10. To be honest, that turn was such a flurry of activity I have no idea if I did or not. I went from being euphoric that I was able to win one of my toughest match ups to feeling like a schmuck for cheating.
Thankfully he finished 6-3 and was able to cash.
4-1
Round 6: Merfolk 0-2
Game one I lose the die roll. My draw doesn't have any creatures, but I'm holding three land and four burns spells. One Lightning Bolt, one Flame Rift and two Price of Progress. I think I'm in great shape until my opponent leads with basic island and Cursecatcher. So now I basically have two burn spells and 5 land. I have to waste what precious burn I do draw killing lords and shortly thereafter become overwhelmed. Game two I try to use burn to kill some of his lords but he has two Force of Wills and a Daze to stop me. His Lords become large and in charge and send me to my second loss.
I didn't feel too bad later because this guy finished as the number one seed after the swiss rounds.
4-2
Round 7: Goblins 0-2
Game one I get my opponent down to five life and I'm at thirteen life. I have three land in play and I'm holding a Fireblast and a Lava Spike. I pass turn and he untaps with a Mogg War Marshall, Goblin Warchief and a couple of tokens in play. He plays a Chieftan and another Mogg War Marshall representing lethal. I could have Fireblasted the Chieftan but that would have left me with only one land. Either way I was dead so I scooped.
The second game I get him to six life and I'm hiding behind an Ensnaring Bridge with fifteen life. The next six turns I proceed to draw five lands and a Hellspark Elemental. He chains a couple of Ringleaders into Tuk Tuk Scrapper and the hordes come rushing in.
The game ended with me having eight lands in play. I'm going to blame it on the deck check we had at the beginning of the round and just move on.
4-3
Well as you can see the tide really started to turn and I was starting to recognize some of the deficiencies in the deck design. Before the tournament I was willing to play creatures that provided instantaneous damage like Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elementals. In hindsight, considering how diverse the Legacy meta-game is (I never played the same deck achetype twice), it would have been better to play a mix of creatures that cause immediate damage and others that establish board presence like Grim Lavamancer. Also, against decks that play lots of basic land, the deck can lose a lot of it's explosive punch.
Round 8: American Delver
This guy was super nice and he had a sweet foiled deck. Unfortunately, this is the kind of deck my deck was built to destroy. Three colors, no basic lands and running Force of Wills. Game one he cast a Delver that he was not able to fllip and a couple Young Pyromancers. I was able to burn away his creatures and I think I hit him with a Price of Progress for six and an unblocked Keldon Marauders. Eleven damage from two cards is just too much damage to give a burn a deck.
Game two he had to mulligan on the play. This game started with a Goblin Guide and a flurry of one casting cost three damage spells. I think he Forced a Flame Rift and played a Young Pyromancer, but that was the extent of his action.
5-3
Round 9: Show and Tell 2-0
Game one I kill him on turn four after he mulled to five cards. Game two I side in Sulfuric Vortex, Confusion in the Ranks, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and Pithing Needle. He mulls to four and only plays one land the whole game. I only see one sideboard card, Sulfuric Vortex, but that and a Goblin Guide plus some one mana, three damage spells do the job.
6-3
If I were to play in a large tournament like this again I would run this version instead:
9 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 x Goblin Guide
4 x Grim Lavamancer
3 x Hellspark Elemental
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain Lightning
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Price of Progress
4 x Flame Rift
4 x Fireblast
2 x Faerie Macabre
2 x Ensnaring Bridge
2 x Searing Blaze
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Smash to Smithereens
2 x Sulfuric Vortex
2 x Confusion in the Ranks
1 x Humility
Finally, I would just like to thank Star City for running such a large event smoothly. If one comes close to your town I highly recommend attending. Also, I would like to thank all of my opponents. Every person I played against was extremely nice and professional. I wish they all played at my local shop.
Good job on the cash and I don't think you should feel like a schmuck. It's the storm player's fault for not catching that error, he's the one that should be handling the storm count and it's not your job to help him win. Still can't believe you beat a storm player in the first game!
1) You note that Rift Bolt gets around Counterbalance and Chalice when hardcast, but it still has a CMC of 3 when suspended, you don't have to hardcast it.
2) Some further land analysis: A lot of the Lavamancer+fetch builds run slightly high on land because the fetches can also fuel the Lavamancer, in a pinch. That's why most of those run 20-21 lands. In a non-Lavamancer build, I think less is better. The calculations in the Primer are based on getting 2 or 3 lands in your opener, but that's not all that I want - I want to have enough juice to kill on turn 4 pretty consistently, which means I ideally want to draw 3 lands in my first 10 cards, and I'm disappointed to see 5.
With that in mind, the odds of drawing 2 or 3 lands in your opening hand AND getting between 2 and 4 land total in the first 10 cards work out like this (assuming no fetchlands):
For non-Lavamancer builds, 18-19 lands looks more attractive than 20-21.
19 Mountain
Creature:
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kiln Fiend
Instant/Sorcery:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
3 Skullcrack
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Karakas
I am not sure about the Grim Lavamancer - Kiln Fiend split. I am just trying to get into Legacy and would appreciate some feedback on the merits of both ( currently do not have fetches to feed Lavamancer).
Also, I am certain my sideboard could use some work (I would blame this to me being somewhat unfamiliar with the format).
Thanks in advance!
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
hellspark elemental feeds deathrite shaman, which is not something anyone wants to be doing as of late.
Grim lavamancer kills deathrite shaman, which is definitely something to be doing as of late.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
I brought in Pithing Needle to stop their LED's. The goal is to slow them down for one turn because sometimes that is all I need to kill them. It also can keep them off red mana. They usually have the black and blue mana from their lands, but they get the red mana for Past in Flames or Burning Wish from their artifacts.
I know it's not the most ideal plan, but to be honest I was willing to sacrifice the matchup heading into the tournament. In these big tournaments, the meta game is so diverse, you have to pick your poison. There are not enough slots in your board to cover every matchup and I was not willing to devote half my sideboard to beating a deck I might see only once in the tournament.
The combo decks I was willing to board for were Re-Animator and Show and Tell variants. Playtesting showed me that sometimes I could race Storm, which happened game one. You get their life total so low that they can't Ad Nauseum. Other times you put so much pressure on, they have to go off prematurely, which happened game three.
I freely admit it's not a great plan, but when you apply that much pressure to their life total you only usually need one piece of hate to break the deck. In my case, it was Faerie Macabre.
As for Leyline, Show and Tell has no way to cast it during the game. Usually it's in their hand at the beginning of the game and they start with it in play. When they Show and Tell, Confusion in the Ranks sees Leyline and you get to exchange enchantments. Now you have a Leyline and they have a Confusion in the Ranks.
They usually put some hideous monster in play off the Show and Tell and then you untap, play a Hellspark Elemental and trade it for an Emrakul or Griselbrand. To add insult to injury the Hellspark Elemental goes to the graveyard at the end of the turn. Oh, let the hilarity ensue.
As for Sulfuric Vortex in the main, it was horrible in playtesting against the aggro matchups. Sulfuric Vortex and Flame Rift do alot of damage to yourself so I opted to put it in the side.
Playtesting showed the Jitte/Batterskull decks were almost always too slow to matter. You just have to burn their Deathrite or Stoneforge Mystic and the earliest they were going to be playing a Batterskull was turn five. By that time, they were getting within Flame Rift/Fireblast range. Now let's make no mistake because you are correct, I did board Sulfuric Vortex in every time I saw a Deathrite or Stoneforge Mystic because it makes the match up even easier.
Griselbrand, on the other hand, is a different animal. If my opponent gets a turn two Griselbrand I'm most likely dead anyway. The Vortex stops the life gain, but now I'm racing 9 damage a turn and Vortex is not going to come down until my third turn which most likely is going to be too slow.
My strategy going into the tournament was to race my opponents game one with the fastest burn deck possible and then go to my board game two to disrupt the combo decks that were faster than me.
Overall, it worked well. I was able to beat all of the slow, durdly, tri-color decks and I was lucky enough to race both combo decks game one and have just enough disruption from the sideboard to win the second games, although I will admit my poor Show and Tell opponent had some dreadful mulligans.
But that is what Burn does. It forces your opponents to mulligan more often because Burn is so fast and consistent. They have to literally ask themselves when looking at their opening seven, can I survive with this hand until turn four? If not, they have to mulligan. Considering how few land most Legacy decks run, a mull to six can oftentimes lead to a mull to five. My opponents did not win a single game when they mulled to five.
My only regret was not having a continuous board presence for the aggro matchups. That's why I wish I would have had Grim Lavamancer for decks like Merfolk.
Also, my Hellsparks were good all day. I think an Ooze ate one, but no Deathrites were able to eat them. I either bolted the Deathrite on sight or cast it immediately from the graveyard right after Deathrite came into play. Hellsparks are literally two burn spells instead of one, are still useful after Hymns and Thoughtseizes and the trample was significant in a world full 2/1 and 1/2 creatures.
In that case, you're fortunate that your opponent didn't read the gamestate closely enough. Lion's Eye Diamond has a mana ability. Pithing Needle doesn't hit those.
I'm working on a Lavamancer build, and was fine with 19 lands, but do you put in more fetchs when upping to 20 - 21 or plain mountains?
RIP Karn EDH
I do like the Chalice for zero though and since I consider the Searing Blazes overkill (the deck tends to already do well against lists with creatures, especially with Grim Lavamancers) maybe the Chalices would fit nicely in the sideboard there. Thanks for suggestion.
Also, there were several times during play testing where I would have three land, two 2 mana cost spells and a Fireblast. I would have to Fireblast, leaving me with one land, and I would never find another land to cast my remaining 2 mana cost spells. Once I went to 21 I was able to find that second land after a Fireblast and keep the train rolling.
I can't make up my mind, I'm at 19 lands right now, I'll try two more fetches. I was actually thinking about taking this deck to gen con just for the heck of it.
RIP Karn EDH
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Don't be gentle, I like it rough... on a serious note though, I don't have too much experience with burn, and the event I'm attending will be the first serious Legacy event I've been to, so any advice is appreciated. My reasoning for splashing white started with what I felt to be better sideboard options. Then since I was running white I traded out flame rift for Boros Charm, and Helix for lavaspike, no real good reason for the lavaspike trade, I just don't like the card. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm not too worried about agression since thats what the deck does, I just don't like to be locked out of a game e.g. Iona, Chalice on 1/2, Counter/Top, and to some extent Layline of Sanctity. Rip away.
P.S.
I'm also thinking -1 land, -1 hellspark, +2 searing blaze
RIP Karn EDH
RIP Karn EDH
monovfox brought up a good point about Hellspark Elementalin a PM to me: This card does nothing to feed Grim Lavamancer since we want to use the unearth ability, but it is the perfect target for the oppositions Deathrite Shaman. They get rid of the unearth ability and Hellspark becomes nothing more than a one-time-use blockable 3/1 and it gives them life through Deathrite, making our job more difficult.
Just some food for thought.
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
I have to disagree with this, there are few creatures that has to be dealt with, deathrite is deffinitely one of them, in the limited testing I've done with the deck so far, burning away a deathrite is always the right move as his ramp is amazing early on, and against us he doubles as life gain. Regardless if I'm running hellsparks or not, deathrite will not live to tap. That being said, hymn is another reason for me to run hellspark.
rujasu,
Helix and Charm are in the deck since they are available, the life gain really isn't that important I'm not depending on it to balance out price of progress, or survive my own fetch lands or anything, I chose it over lavaspike since it can target creatures, the life gain is just nice, since I'm splashing white why not? And its pretty awesome in the mirror, well it makes that match up less hideous since your price of progress is usless, and theirs is weak.
On to O'ring, this is reason number one that I'm going with 21 lands, so that I can consistently hit 3 lands on turn 3, its an answer to everything that shuts this deck out, and once you remove those threats all that is left is inevitability, Wasteland sucks, I understand running nonbasics will be going against virtual card advantage in that you'll give them something to hit, but thats why I'm also running 21 lands, losing one or two won't hurt as much as a 19 land base.
And of course the white fetches will be replaced if I can find some more red ones to borrow.
Now as far as sideboards go, mine really isn't tuned at all at this point, but O'ring is awesome cause it opens up many slots to run what ever else. Thanks for bringing up ensnaring bridge, I'll have to think on that some more.
Well thanks guys for the input soo far, I'll keep these comments in mind, since I'm still gonna tweak this deck up untill Sunday!
RIP Karn EDH