The one Ponder is because jace TMS takes the place of/counts as Ponders 2 and 3. Honestly though, while Team America was obviously the right meta game call, I really dont like his list that much. To me his results is just a testament to TA in the current meta as well as his skill, rather than to his specific build.
I had never played a deck other than Lands before trying Team America in the Legacy Champs, and lost in the swiss only to the 1st and 2nd place folks (both 1-2).
I took Gerry's list and swapped Ponder for Deed, a Misstep for Misdirection, and put an Edict in the board in Lieu of a Ghastly and ran a Go for the Throat over it. I think there were one or two other cards swapped but it was about 70 cards of Gerry's List.
Misdirection was amazing all day. I faced Reed in round 4 and lost 1-2 (He had all the goddamn cards in games 1 and 3, I feel I misplayed in one of them, though), and Jared in round 6 (did not play a deed around him having force and ran it out early, assuming incorrectly that his double vial indicated he was holding multiple dudes).
I never felt that Loam needed to come in from the board in hindsight.
I feel that misstep is increasingly dropping in value so going to 3 was correct, and I want to consider some number of spell pierce in the SB.
The singleton ponder is terrible in the main and was fairly obviously in there because Gerry was uncertain whether to run an addition deed, point removal, or countermagic, in my opinion.
I really hate to state anything as I will probably get flamed for it. Buuut, since you asked :). This is a preference thing I suppose but I really just dont like the controllish nature of the list which brings with it a heavier mana requirement (I know we can argue MMS/wastes make this a good call but so does a lower curve). This in turn can result in mana flooding and also devalues daze and wasteland because the list wants to hit 3-4 for 4 of its 10 win conditions. this makes it easier for his opponents to keep him off those cards especially since we dont run a very stable mana base. Too much land also really hurts tempo (although so does mana screw haha).
I guess I really just dont like jace or deed in the main although both seem good from the side. If deed is necessary I would prefer EE as you can split the costs.
I know many people have been main decking jace lately but he just seems to make the deck a worse version of BUG landstill. I prefer Sylvan Library which is insane at only 2cc investment.
2 Tombstalkers also feels like too few here when the deck only has 6 real threats greater than 3/1.
Lastly edicts in the main are also a gamble and seem to suggest he expected NOpro and emrakul to be popular. However the decks that pack those cards dont have much problems with jace or deed.
Anyway it obviously paid off for him but ive read elsewhere that Gerry even said this is the worst deck he's ever top 8'd with.
But overall hes a badass at this game and im not so take all of this with a grain.
Cheers.
Jace is nice because he functions as a wincon, fixer, and deterrent of opposing Jaces. His cmc is a tad high, but that's the cost of one of the best utility permanents in the game right now.
Yeah, Gerrys list seems to be a meta call, but most of decisions seemed well backed, such as the targeted / non-targeted removal split, which was perfect for the meta.
ValiantSquall- congrats on the finish. Your deck actually looks more like Evagreen to me rather than TA though. Not that theres anything wrong with that cause I play both and I still love playing Eva. Anyway thanks for the report.
It feels like it is trying to cover all the bases but loses focus meanwhile. It is actuall a hybrid between the traditional Team America (with Tombstalkers) and BUG Landstill. I think, despite the success of these hybrid Ubg Tempo decks, the way to go is either classic Team America or the BUG Landstill. Having Tarmogoyfs and Discard doesn't make the deck stronger and more stable over the Landstill. Having a little of everything in one deck and not drawing the necessary answers when needed doesn't make sense.
Optimizing control decks in an environment like Legacy is hard enough let alone optimizing a Tempo/Control hybrid.
Ya unfortunately hybridizing the two archtypes seems good at first but really just results in a less efficient version of either deck. TA feeds off of tempo plays with a steady stream of disruption. The deck absolutely needs to capitalize on that tempo with a large beater to win in short order or the opponent will stabilize.
For example, just last night against zoo on the play I went: fetch-> stifle fetch, fetch-> hymn, snuff out, wasteland-> T3 tombstalker with MMS backup against a clear board. Thats sick. Hybrids of TA/landstill could never capitalize on this series of tempo plays in time to win like tombstalker did. Also most if not all of the hybrids creature suite would still be subject to the approximately 16+ burn/removal the zoo player had + chump blockers, whereas tombstalker only cares about PtE.
Lastly as TA is a deck full of situationally powerful cards, a minimum of 7-8 cantrips is needed to help avoid dead draws. It took me awhile to get used to running so few threats but once I dropped down to the original 8 I found the increase in disruption to be far more effective than adding more finishers. In fact I rarely enjoy seeing a threat in my opening 7.
BUG landstill otoh plays the late game (comparitively) using powerful control engines like standstill and deed + manlands/jace, LftL + wasteland/worm harvest etc. I really dont think bob is that good here either as landstill has plenty of CA and no creatures so adding a 4 set actually becomes a weakness. I admit I have had problems recently with landstill but overall I still think TA is the better deck to play.
I agree though that optimizing anything in Legacy is difficult and I am still trying to get the hang of this format
So I'm very much new to TA but after reading this thread and the one on the source for a while this is the build I came up with last night. I have all the cards for it and after throwing it together last night it plays like an absolute champ! I was just wondering about peoples opinions on this. Is 4 tombstalker absolutely necessary? I only got 3, but I could pick up the 4th one. Also, how does the removal package look?
@bradstone: Your list looks pretty good. Plenty of people do the 4/3/2 split of goyf/stalker/clique although I like 4 stalkers.
Kira I dont really think is worth it but a few swear by her. The downside to kira is you have to tap out during your turn for 3(4) (TA doesnt like this) and play her before you play an actual threat i.e. goyf/stalker and then she only beats for 2 if you dont have another threat. Faaar worse than clique, IMO of course.
Removal is largely a metagame choice. You really do need 4 Underground Seas though, I would drop a Bayou for the 4th Sea, its the most important land in your deck and LD strategies will make you pay for running anything less than a full playset.
@IcedNeonFlames: Thoughtseize used to be an integral part of the deck but Mental Misstep took those slots. Some people still opt for Thoughtseize over Hymn but most feel the card advantage is too valuable in this deck to give up. The nice part about TS is it goes well T2 with our stifle/wasteland/daze package. I used to run a 3/3 split of hymn/thoughtseize but once I dropped it I never really looked back. Too many late game dead draws with both, even considering 7-8 cantrips.
Well, depending upon his list it may be more of a Team deck than Rock, but not Team America. There have been plenty of Team decks as of recent, so his list may actually fall more towards one of those.
@kingsey: post your list up! I've seen esper TA lists dropping goyf, library and black removal for SFM + batterskull and StP. Seems powerful on paper and shores up our aggro matchup nicely. Some even feel this to be the natural progression of TA.
I played with High Tide vs Team America and it is a pretty hard matchup. If High Tide gets discarded, it's usually GG (especially with Extraction effects). Also, Time Spiral refills opponent's hand, making it easier to get Extirpates. If you don't run Extirpates, it's 50/50 since it depends on starting hands.
Extirpate does not automatically give you a win. Game 2 and 3 most High tide players will side out a single high tide against an opponent playing black. Hitting there mana base with stifles(they run 4-6 fetches in the deck) and Hymn is absolutely the best way to disable to mana base. If you see them mediate before the combo counter it or you are not going to be able to fight through there 7+ card grip during there combo turn. Also gof is weak in this match up. It rarely gets bigger then 3/4 since your opponent does not play creatures. I hope these tips help you out since I play high tides on a regular basis.
ValiantSquall- that is Evagreen, or close to..your edicts help against HMs secondary win condition which is good. TA has fow, daze, stifle, hymn a.nd wasteland but you only have hand disruption + wasteland. Mull aggressively for disruption and you could get lucky, HM is after all a 3 card combo that plays like a 2 card combo. Priority targets are SNT, intuition and hivemind with SNT usually being highest. TA has plenty of tools to fight HM but eva not so much. Post board if you can seize a SNT then extirpate/extract it early you'll be in a decent position.
Alteryoda- Greetings and thanks for the shout out man. I have actually tested/played pretty extensively with "White America" prior to returning to the traditional colors. White is definitely a viable and powerful alternative to green but does have some inherent differences that in the end made me return to green.
One of the main reasons was the greater demand for splash colored mana due to SFM needing white twice and our best removal (StP) also in white. Anyway heres some thoughts for you:
Creature suite- Mostly preference ive found and I go back and forth on 3 or 4 tombstalkers. Im currently running 3 stalker 2 clique. Personally I ran 4 SFM because they are such a high priority that the first 1-2 may not get through. I look at them similar to the tombstalker debate, i.e. its not whether you have too many but rather that you always want one in hand.
Equipment- In conjunction with SFM this is obviously the main reason to go with white. IME batterskull maindeck is just too sick to leave out. I would seriously consider exchanging one sword for this.
Merfolk is our worst matchup and a resolved batterskull is usually simply gg for them. I would also look to add jitte in the board as these two equipments shore up both the merfolk and zoo match ups pretty well.
The main problem I have with only running swords of x and y is that this deck does not provide enough bodies to reliably equip them, especially games 2-3. What I found is that against Red.dec its better to tutor a sword first in case they try and disrupt/kill the mystic and to search batterskull subsequently. In instances like this a second sword is arguably worse than a 4/4 lifelink vigilance creature anyway. Also in defense of batterskull, many matchups where batterskull really shines like zoo, NO RUG etc they dont run wasteland/LD so you are far more likely to reach 5 mana against these decks.
Removal suite- I am the biggest fan ever of Snuff Out and Ive argue'd for Snuff Out over Dismember vehemently ever since Dismember was printed. However, I finally made the switch to Dismember and now I can honestly say I dont think I will ever look back. Its that good. I know this is somewhat of a preference issue but I invite you to test it out. The lifeloss can be much less, the tempo loss is usually insignificant and being able to hit bob/tombstalker etc. is awesome, especially off a tundra/wasteland. I completely agree with your removal split in White America because this deck is even more mana hungry than typical TA, but in a completely different way. Dismember can also help here by easing the huge mana demand this deck has, due in part to half your removal suite being rooted in a splash color.
Changes- I would consider dropping ponder altogether in this deck. SFM gives you CA and shuffle effects and I feel ponder has been found wanting for quite some time now. Losing the Ponders (and the miser's smother) would allow you to go +2 vindicate +1 SFM/clique.
Lastly Re: burn/boros- these archtypes are not relevant at all in most areas so I would suggest simply ignoring them and taking the loss from time to time. However, if your meta is full of either one then you have a problem. Chill/CoP Red seem like some of the better answers here. It sucks to have to dedicate space to rogue decks though so not much more to say on that. Unfortunately it really comes down to either resigning yourself to lose to these types of decks or make your matchup worse against the rest of the field to compensate.
Stifle will definitely be a 4 of in my TA seeing as how it already was even with misstep. I do now have 4 slots to fill in my deck though and I'm looking at Inquisition of Kozilek or Thoughtsieze, not really sure. I never played TA before MM
I recently started playing TA and while I do like the deck I seem to have a problem beating people when they are playing decks with little or no non-basics and/or fetches. Am I doing something wrong or is it just a bad MU? Side note aaronc123 where did you get that sig its sweet.
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I feel like CBT adds too much mana strain and tempo loss to the deck, whereas the rest of the deck attempts to alleviate the strain on the manabase and keep up tempo. If you spend the first 2 turns assembling CBT, then you missed at least 2 tempo plays and tapped out twice, which is not where the deck should be.
I would say the deck clearly is not intended to have any part of counterbalance whatsoever. If you wanted to try CB in a Bug colored deck it would clearly be in BUG Still.
I don't know about snapcaster, I usually don't have the mana to be playing a 2 drop and flashing back a spell for 2+ mana.
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Retired
Legacy: GRUB Lands
Modern: U Tron RG Tron RG Ponza
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I had never played a deck other than Lands before trying Team America in the Legacy Champs, and lost in the swiss only to the 1st and 2nd place folks (both 1-2).
I took Gerry's list and swapped Ponder for Deed, a Misstep for Misdirection, and put an Edict in the board in Lieu of a Ghastly and ran a Go for the Throat over it. I think there were one or two other cards swapped but it was about 70 cards of Gerry's List.
Misdirection was amazing all day. I faced Reed in round 4 and lost 1-2 (He had all the goddamn cards in games 1 and 3, I feel I misplayed in one of them, though), and Jared in round 6 (did not play a deed around him having force and ran it out early, assuming incorrectly that his double vial indicated he was holding multiple dudes).
I never felt that Loam needed to come in from the board in hindsight.
I feel that misstep is increasingly dropping in value so going to 3 was correct, and I want to consider some number of spell pierce in the SB.
The singleton ponder is terrible in the main and was fairly obviously in there because Gerry was uncertain whether to run an addition deed, point removal, or countermagic, in my opinion.
I guess I really just dont like jace or deed in the main although both seem good from the side. If deed is necessary I would prefer EE as you can split the costs.
I know many people have been main decking jace lately but he just seems to make the deck a worse version of BUG landstill. I prefer Sylvan Library which is insane at only 2cc investment.
2 Tombstalkers also feels like too few here when the deck only has 6 real threats greater than 3/1.
Lastly edicts in the main are also a gamble and seem to suggest he expected NOpro and emrakul to be popular. However the decks that pack those cards dont have much problems with jace or deed.
Anyway it obviously paid off for him but ive read elsewhere that Gerry even said this is the worst deck he's ever top 8'd with.
But overall hes a badass at this game and im not so take all of this with a grain.
Cheers.
Yeah, Gerrys list seems to be a meta call, but most of decisions seemed well backed, such as the targeted / non-targeted removal split, which was perfect for the meta.
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Ya unfortunately hybridizing the two archtypes seems good at first but really just results in a less efficient version of either deck. TA feeds off of tempo plays with a steady stream of disruption. The deck absolutely needs to capitalize on that tempo with a large beater to win in short order or the opponent will stabilize.
For example, just last night against zoo on the play I went: fetch-> stifle fetch, fetch-> hymn, snuff out, wasteland-> T3 tombstalker with MMS backup against a clear board. Thats sick. Hybrids of TA/landstill could never capitalize on this series of tempo plays in time to win like tombstalker did. Also most if not all of the hybrids creature suite would still be subject to the approximately 16+ burn/removal the zoo player had + chump blockers, whereas tombstalker only cares about PtE.
Lastly as TA is a deck full of situationally powerful cards, a minimum of 7-8 cantrips is needed to help avoid dead draws. It took me awhile to get used to running so few threats but once I dropped down to the original 8 I found the increase in disruption to be far more effective than adding more finishers. In fact I rarely enjoy seeing a threat in my opening 7.
BUG landstill otoh plays the late game (comparitively) using powerful control engines like standstill and deed + manlands/jace, LftL + wasteland/worm harvest etc. I really dont think bob is that good here either as landstill has plenty of CA and no creatures so adding a 4 set actually becomes a weakness. I admit I have had problems recently with landstill but overall I still think TA is the better deck to play.
I agree though that optimizing anything in Legacy is difficult and I am still trying to get the hang of this format
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Instants:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
2x Go For the Throat
2x Diabolic Edict
3x Ponder
4x Hymm to Tourach
Lands:
3x Underground Sea
3x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
So I'm very much new to TA but after reading this thread and the one on the source for a while this is the build I came up with last night. I have all the cards for it and after throwing it together last night it plays like an absolute champ! I was just wondering about peoples opinions on this. Is 4 tombstalker absolutely necessary? I only got 3, but I could pick up the 4th one. Also, how does the removal package look?
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza
One question about the deck.........why the lack of Thoughtseize (or Duress or IOK)?
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Hymn To Tourach
1 Ponder
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force Of Will
3 Go For The Throat
2 Smother
Not sure if it's optimal or not.
Kira I dont really think is worth it but a few swear by her. The downside to kira is you have to tap out during your turn for 3(4) (TA doesnt like this) and play her before you play an actual threat i.e. goyf/stalker and then she only beats for 2 if you dont have another threat. Faaar worse than clique, IMO of course.
Removal is largely a metagame choice. You really do need 4 Underground Seas though, I would drop a Bayou for the 4th Sea, its the most important land in your deck and LD strategies will make you pay for running anything less than a full playset.
@IcedNeonFlames: Thoughtseize used to be an integral part of the deck but Mental Misstep took those slots. Some people still opt for Thoughtseize over Hymn but most feel the card advantage is too valuable in this deck to give up. The nice part about TS is it goes well T2 with our stifle/wasteland/daze package. I used to run a 3/3 split of hymn/thoughtseize but once I dropped it I never really looked back. Too many late game dead draws with both, even considering 7-8 cantrips.
I've been running " team esper " and its been doing well. Just unsure what thread to post my list.
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
@kingsey: post your list up! I've seen esper TA lists dropping goyf, library and black removal for SFM + batterskull and StP. Seems powerful on paper and shores up our aggro matchup nicely. Some even feel this to be the natural progression of TA.
Also this is the best thread to follow.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21943-Esper-America
Extirpate does not automatically give you a win. Game 2 and 3 most High tide players will side out a single high tide against an opponent playing black. Hitting there mana base with stifles(they run 4-6 fetches in the deck) and Hymn is absolutely the best way to disable to mana base. If you see them mediate before the combo counter it or you are not going to be able to fight through there 7+ card grip during there combo turn. Also gof is weak in this match up. It rarely gets bigger then 3/4 since your opponent does not play creatures. I hope these tips help you out since I play high tides on a regular basis.
One of the main reasons was the greater demand for splash colored mana due to SFM needing white twice and our best removal (StP) also in white. Anyway heres some thoughts for you:
Creature suite- Mostly preference ive found and I go back and forth on 3 or 4 tombstalkers. Im currently running 3 stalker 2 clique. Personally I ran 4 SFM because they are such a high priority that the first 1-2 may not get through. I look at them similar to the tombstalker debate, i.e. its not whether you have too many but rather that you always want one in hand.
Equipment- In conjunction with SFM this is obviously the main reason to go with white. IME batterskull maindeck is just too sick to leave out. I would seriously consider exchanging one sword for this.
Merfolk is our worst matchup and a resolved batterskull is usually simply gg for them. I would also look to add jitte in the board as these two equipments shore up both the merfolk and zoo match ups pretty well.
The main problem I have with only running swords of x and y is that this deck does not provide enough bodies to reliably equip them, especially games 2-3. What I found is that against Red.dec its better to tutor a sword first in case they try and disrupt/kill the mystic and to search batterskull subsequently. In instances like this a second sword is arguably worse than a 4/4 lifelink vigilance creature anyway. Also in defense of batterskull, many matchups where batterskull really shines like zoo, NO RUG etc they dont run wasteland/LD so you are far more likely to reach 5 mana against these decks.
Removal suite- I am the biggest fan ever of Snuff Out and Ive argue'd for Snuff Out over Dismember vehemently ever since Dismember was printed. However, I finally made the switch to Dismember and now I can honestly say I dont think I will ever look back. Its that good. I know this is somewhat of a preference issue but I invite you to test it out. The lifeloss can be much less, the tempo loss is usually insignificant and being able to hit bob/tombstalker etc. is awesome, especially off a tundra/wasteland. I completely agree with your removal split in White America because this deck is even more mana hungry than typical TA, but in a completely different way. Dismember can also help here by easing the huge mana demand this deck has, due in part to half your removal suite being rooted in a splash color.
Changes- I would consider dropping ponder altogether in this deck. SFM gives you CA and shuffle effects and I feel ponder has been found wanting for quite some time now. Losing the Ponders (and the miser's smother) would allow you to go +2 vindicate +1 SFM/clique.
Lastly Re: burn/boros- these archtypes are not relevant at all in most areas so I would suggest simply ignoring them and taking the loss from time to time. However, if your meta is full of either one then you have a problem. Chill/CoP Red seem like some of the better answers here. It sucks to have to dedicate space to rogue decks though so not much more to say on that. Unfortunately it really comes down to either resigning yourself to lose to these types of decks or make your matchup worse against the rest of the field to compensate.
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Big Thanks to DNC and all the guys at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig and avvie.
Currently Playing:
Legacy:
BUGBUG DelverGUB
UWRUWR MiraclesRWU
RUGRUG DelverGUR
UUHigh TideUU
Modern:
UWRUWR ControlRWU
UBUB FaeriesBU
BGRJundRGB
URUR StormRU
Standard:
UWUW ControlWU
Standard:
:symr:/:symg: Valakut 2.0 (Wolf Run Green)
Legacy:
:symr:/:symb: Vial Goblins
:symr:/:symg:/:symw: Zoo
:symg:/:symw:/:symr: Maverick
Commander:
:symg:/:symb:/:symw: Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I don't know about snapcaster, I usually don't have the mana to be playing a 2 drop and flashing back a spell for 2+ mana.
Retired
Legacy:
GRUB Lands
Modern:
U Tron
RG Tron
RG Ponza