The deck has lost favor due to better options and because nimble mongoose simply put doesn't get things done anymore. It can be great in certain metagames, but now this deck simply put doesn't do as good as it once did against the field. It would need a major overhaul in order to be tier 1 again. New Horizons is kind of like this deck but better IMO with better fatties and a nice land toolbox via KotR. Also the decks creature removal suite is lackluster because bolt can't kill everything in the format anymore with tarmogoyf around along with rhox war monk among other fatties. Fire is even more narrow however it can still be amazing in certain cases like against zoo if you kill their lavamancer and steppe lynx with one fire it is CA. But really, tempo thresh is beginning to disappear as a deck which I find sad but it is none the less true. And this decks AMAZING MUs just disappeared with the banning of mystical tutor because this deck crushed ANT and its cousin's with all the countermagic and pierce's coming in from the board the MU was like an auto win IMO. Same case with reanimator this deck was amazing against that deck with its land destruction package and strong counter suite and the right SB could make the MU really good.
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You can always retool the deck to be more control and a bit less tempo. For example, this deck top 8'd at a big tournament in the US last month. It's even more popular in Europe where Landstill control is really popular.
You can basically play it like Tempo Threshold, but if you get to that uncomfortable place with Tempo Thresh where the game drags out and the opponent builds a board presence, you have five absolute bombs in the Sowers, Jace 2.0, and Crucible for waste-lock.
You still have to deal with the Mongoose issue in the old builds. I think there is a lot of flexibility there for innovation depending on your metagame. What is clear is that Nimble Mongoose just can't keep up with the creature creep that was introduced with the Alara block. The card just gets absolutely smoked by the Bant and can't even get by a Wild Nacatl.
You could, for example, swap out the geese for Grim Lavamancer in a meta full of Goblins/Merfolk. You could maindeck Firespouts if you knew you were getting a lot of Zoo. My point is that as long as you deal with the Mongoose Problem and build to a metagame, I think you can still have top8 success with a lot of cards in Tempo Thresh.
Here's another take, for example. Top8'd a 64-man tournament in Europe last month:
Also the use of Shackles, Jace, and Clique to help deal with creatures that you can't burn out. Here he just threw out Stifle/Waste package and went with a control deck that hoses other control decks' ridiculously greedy manabases out of the sideboard.
The point is, that even though the Tempo Thresh we have known in the past is pretty much a tier 2 player now (but still playable, and I think not a terrible choice in a weird meta), there's plenty of room for innovation and customization around some of its core cards and its colors (even if it doesn't necessarily resemble the original deck from time to time).
The deck needs more permanent answers to larger creatures.
I'm guessing there will be a good presence of Merfolk, New Horizon variants, CounterTops and Zoo, some Pox and Loam decks. Probably some of the new Jace Control builds as well.
After having played Canadian Thresh for a LONG time, it's no longer suited for the meta-game. Zoo is such a difficult match-up it's rediculous.
However, when your creatures are bigger than theirs, well, it gets pretty easy after that.
How are you losing to Zoo? The whole, "your creatures are bigger than theirs" thing is usually still true and most of that deck still dies to burn. They have to overextend into Daze in the early game and they don't have a draw engine to power through things when stuck on mana in the early game.
The reason why UGR Canadian Thresh is having issues in the modern metagame is that New Horizons and other Bant/Countertop decks are running more fat than just 4 Tarmogoyf. You used to be able to win or draw Goyf wars for the most part and get there with Geese and burn, but now that blue decks have 8-10 threats out of burn range, random matchups got much more difficult.
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I'll put this bluntly. If a really cool, unique guy went up to a normal girl, and is ugly, he's weird. if he goes up and is hot, then he's cool and unique.
Standard
It's like watching grass grow, except it's ridculously expensive.
I want to know the matchup layout of this deck and was wondering if anyone could tell me how it performs against popular decks in the format.
Going through the Source's DTBF.
Zoo is favorable. A fetch/dual heavy manabase and lots of creatures that are in burn range is good news.
Merfolk is favorable. Sure, your mana denial suite is kinda dead here sans wasting Mutavault, but everything they play dies to burn and your creatures are bigger than theirs 1v1. Combined with four Swords out of the board in Red Blasts and you should get there.
Storm Combo is favorable, I really shouldn't have to explain this one.
Reanimator is even. You pound bad players, but it's even against the good ones. The games you win are by the skin of your teeth, and the ones you lose are blowouts.
New Horizons is awful for you. They run the same disruption you do and all of their threats are out of burn range. You need to go all in on mana denial and hope it gets there. It rarely does.
Countertop is even to unfavorable. It depends on how fragile they are in the early game and how much fat they run. If they run a nice varied removal package and 8 fatties, you're in trouble.
Bant Agro is even to unfavorable as well. They beat you in attrition wars because they topdeck a ton better than you, but that deck is super fragile early.
Bant Survival is the same way.
Goblins is favorable for the same reasons Merfolk and Zoo are.
Landstill is unfavorable because of how focused they are on agro post-ban and because they can just 1-for-1 you to death all day.
43 Land rolls you.
LED Dredge is rough, you might be able to get there against slower lists though.
Counter-Top-Thopter is even to unfavorable, depending on how stable their manabase is and how much removal they run.
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I'll put this bluntly. If a really cool, unique guy went up to a normal girl, and is ugly, he's weird. if he goes up and is hot, then he's cool and unique.
Standard
It's like watching grass grow, except it's ridculously expensive.
Could these perhaps be good in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique in the old builds?
I have seen experienced players playing Can Thresh lists here in our area playing 2x Jace TMS in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique. And it seems good.
One problem with the old tempo thresh builds, I don't know if you guys notice this, is that when the game goes long you eventually run out of answers. In my experience, most of my losses were due to these(running out of gas). There were games where I was a wasteland short of winning. Some games, I had my opponent mana screwed for quite a long time but exhausting my brainstorms and ponders, I still can't find a goose or a goyf.
Having Jace 2.0 solves this. All of its abilities are what the deck needs. You can have continues card quality/advantage with its 1 card scry or Brainstorm every turn. Creature bounce that could deal with troublesome creatures that got through counters and burn. And to a lesser extent, a finisher with its ultimate ability.
The only problem I see with Jace 2.0 though is its mana cost (that is, aside from its money cost). With the old list, you don't usually see 4 lands. With that you should cut down your fetchlands to maybe 4. And if you could squeeze in some basics that could probably help.
Hope this helps those who still want to update/tweak their Canadian Thresh lists. Sorry though, I could only contribute that which I have seen in our area, since I had already stopped and moved to test other decks. I still like this deck tho, and I hope its sees some more play and improvement.
I pretty new to Legacy, and I have no experience playing this deck. But I thought I should mention this list that made 2nd place at the Legacy tournament PT Amsterdam:
I hear a lot of people say that this deck isnt good any more. Mostly because of all the graveyard hate because of the survival decks. I never thought this deck would be bad because of that. Also, they say if you want to play this deck play new horizons instead.
What would you guys say about those comments, is this deck still viable. I know you can still get the nuts with wastes/stifles etc. to lock them out of the game.
UGb tempo thresh just top 4'ed the dutch legacy championship. This deck is far from dead. And UGr tempo thresh piloted by Ben Wienburg top 8'ed a SCG 5k recently not sure which one though. Relic of progenitus is annoying for the deck true and stops mongeese from being a 3/3 and against goyf if they pop it goyfs a 0/1 but that quickly changes typically due to a fetch, brainstorm, then another creature hitting the yard on the same turn if you just don't fetch with a fetch going into combat with them having a mana open and relic on board. And also stifle works wonders against them trying to fire relic. Crypt hardly hurts this deck though because it's a one time shot and like I said stifle beats it if they try to pop it.
There is a version of canadian thresh with jace that runs 21 land or something and 2 jaces. It got 9th at GP Madrid and forgoes mongeese in favor of 3 clique and 2 sower of temptation. Almost the same shell though.
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There is a version of canadian thresh with jace that runs 21 land or something and 2 jaces. It got 9th at GP Madrid and forgoes mongeese in favor of 3 clique and 2 sower of temptation. Almost the same shell though.
That sounds pretty nice. Ill take a look at that list. I was wondering if jace would be good in the deck but i didnt want to be one of the people that puts jace into any deck.
jace probably fits better in the more control-ish version of thresh since he complements counterbalance quite well together with brainstorm and ponder.
regarding which color to splash with the UG base, black looks like a better option right now than red. perish+extirpate are really good against the current meta game and provide more benefits than lightning bolt+fire spout.
Chain of Vapor: Cheap way to deal with enchantments/planeswalkers etc. and my Nimble can't be target. Other than that, no other targets on my side except 2 drop creatures.
Smother: Takes out most of opposing creatures. Especially important to deal with KotR, Terravore and other large 3drops. 4+ casting cost = CoV targets.
Spell Pierce: Goes inn vs. decks with low creature count. Mainly control decks, other Horizons/Tempo decks and Burn heavy decks.
Engineered Explosives: Goes inn vs. creature heavy decks and other decks with low curve.
The deck in general has benefited from the inclusion of Dark Confidant IMO. Better draw, and less prone to lose steam. The draw-back is faster life-loss and less punching power and reach than UGR/UGW counter parts. Extirpates from the sideboard is gold in todays meta. Good in mirror, control and Survival builds to name a few.
EDIT:
Same basic shell, with a white splash over black instead.
Noble Hierarch: Solid one drop, although not as agressive as Nimble Mongoose, he can accelerate Jace 2.0 and KotR. Good vs opposing Daze and gives me mana for counter back-up.
Knight of the Reliquary: Just a huge body with a useful seconday ability. The deck however cannot afford to activate his ability too often due to the lack of forest/plains to sacrifice. Useful nonetheless
Swords to Plowshare: Best cheap creature removal in the game. The deck can now afford to give away some lifepoints because of the additional body from KotR and kill con. Jace 2.0
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Solid control card, and can be used as an alternative way to victory.
I have always wanted to play Tempo Thresh but have not had the resources to build the deck. Recently I was able to acquire all of the cards and have had alot of success with the U/G/r build. It seems that the Black splash might be more competitive with Dark Confidant and improved removal (smother, Diabolic Edict), however I chose the red splash due to meta reasons (Lecacy in South Carolina is virtually non-existant). Here are a couple of my observations from the experience that I have:
1) I run Quirion Dryad instead of Tarmogoyf. Other than saving me hundreds of dollars on this decision, the dryad doesn't care whats in the graveyard, like Tamogoyf and werebear do. With alot of dredge in my small meta, there is graveyard hate everywhere. Secondly, although Tarmogoyf enters the battlefield much stronger than Qurion Dryad (in most cases), the Dryad can reach the 7 power and toughness stronghold, and go beyond. Most of the time, the game won't last long enough for my Dryad to get stronger than a 6/6 or 7/7 (or it won't matter if he does), but once every five or six games, it does. Picture this scenario. I drop an early Dryad, use him as a blocker and control the board with countermagic for five or six turns as the deck does so well, and then bam. My opponent is at 11 life, I have an 8/8 dryad. I cast Fire/Ice, tap down their blocker, draw a card, swing for 8, and lightning bolt for the win (with Force of Will backup). This scenario happens and it happens more than you think.
2) Fire/Ice is the main reason for my U/G/r choice instead of the U/G/b choice. Sure, this card does not deal with a tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or other playable Lecacy creatures. And yes, running this card without the almighty sceptor seems crazy. But the flexibility of this card is insane. This card has enabled me to get out of so many pinches, I could never cut it.
3) The third and final card I could never cut is Chain of Vapor. I only run 18 lands in my list (4 of which are wastelands). Needing to bounce a permanent for one mana is crucial to tempo, and Chain of Vapor does it perfectly with virtually no drawback. Although it can be copied, Quirion Dryad is the only target I have that can be targeted. And most of the time, I am bouncing something in the first three turns of the game, in which it doesn't hurt me at all.
It seems that this deck doesn't see much play these days (or at least doesn't finish very well anymore post survival), however I am still having alot of success with it. I will bring this to the Legacy Open in Charlotte in October (the only tournament within driving distance for me) and I will do my damnest to bring down everyone else. Thats my two cents. I hope this helps.
Building a budget UGr threshold deck and was wondering if anyone had any input. I'm concerned about the mana-base but i'll gradually add duals as time goes on. Wasn't sure about Lorescale Coatl as being a two-of but couldn't figure out was to take out to add two more. Mana leak replaces daze and no force of will means less counter-magic, may pose as a problem. Thoughts?
Does 8 bounce effects seem like to many? Especially rushing river as a 3 cmc bounce.
I've always been a coatl fan and would run it as a 4 of cause it just gets big so quickly.
If you are going to max coatl then preordain seems good too.
If you're concerned about the manabase just keep adding fetches...its not exactly the cheapest solution but thats pretty much how thresh decks with low land counts opperate anyways. Also considering you curve out at like 3, 22 lands seems highish since most thresh builds run like ~18 and four of those are wastelands anyways.
Does 8 bounce effects seem like to many? Especially rushing river as a 3 cmc bounce.
I've always been a coatl fan and would run it as a 4 of cause it just gets big so quickly.
If you are going to max coatl then preordain seems good too.
If you're concerned about the manabase just keep adding fetches...its not exactly the cheapest solution but thats pretty much how thresh decks with low land counts opperate anyways. Also considering you curve out at like 3, 22 lands seems highish since most thresh builds run like ~18 and four of those are wastelands anyways.
I actually altered by subtracting an island, subtracting a Rushing River and adding 2 coatls. I ran more lands because I'm afraid of mana trouble and 21 actually ran somewhat smoothly for me when solitairing. I think preordain may be an overkill, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather be running more threats even though it does pump coatl and smooths more. Maybe drop a few vapors?
Actually come to think of it I'd drop some to all of the chains of vapor. Its going to be really dumb everytime one of your opponents goes okay...*sacs land* bounces your x/x dryad or coatl. You probably don't want to set yourself up for huge tempo loses in your deck since your opponent will always have a land to sac if its worth it and only your mongoose is immune.
This deck will not be playable at all with a budget list. It was created to take advantage of tier 1 decks, and stifles/wastelands do exactly that. Without those cards, you are missing a key component of this deck, which is the mana denial strategy. This deck is all about doing three things at the same time. You have to be able to a) deny your opponents mana b) drop creatures to attack/defend with, and c) counter/burn any problem spells they play. This will be impossible without 1) duel lands 2) Force of will, and 3) the mana disruption cards.
Disrupting shoal is the best you can do for a FOW replacement, shocklands are almost as good as duel lands, and there's no getting around wasteland/stifle
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I guess I have to try and get a hold of New Horizon cards. I'm fresh out of Tundra, Knight of the Reliquary, and Terravor
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flood Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Island
3 Mishra’s Factory
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire// Ice
4 Force of Will
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Firespout
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
You can basically play it like Tempo Threshold, but if you get to that uncomfortable place with Tempo Thresh where the game drags out and the opponent builds a board presence, you have five absolute bombs in the Sowers, Jace 2.0, and Crucible for waste-lock.
But I like the concept with Jace 2.0.
Could these perhaps be good in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique in the old builds?
You could, for example, swap out the geese for Grim Lavamancer in a meta full of Goblins/Merfolk. You could maindeck Firespouts if you knew you were getting a lot of Zoo. My point is that as long as you deal with the Mongoose Problem and build to a metagame, I think you can still have top8 success with a lot of cards in Tempo Thresh.
Here's another take, for example. Top8'd a 64-man tournament in Europe last month:
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Firespout
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Forest
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Blood Moon
1 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
Look at that spicy meatball sideboard!
Also the use of Shackles, Jace, and Clique to help deal with creatures that you can't burn out. Here he just threw out Stifle/Waste package and went with a control deck that hoses other control decks' ridiculously greedy manabases out of the sideboard.
The point is, that even though the Tempo Thresh we have known in the past is pretty much a tier 2 player now (but still playable, and I think not a terrible choice in a weird meta), there's plenty of room for innovation and customization around some of its core cards and its colors (even if it doesn't necessarily resemble the original deck from time to time).
I'm guessing there will be a good presence of Merfolk, New Horizon variants, CounterTops and Zoo, some Pox and Loam decks. Probably some of the new Jace Control builds as well.
What about something like
Basic Land: 4
4 Island
Non-Basic Land: 16
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
Artifact:
2 Engineered Explosives
Creature: 8
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Planeswalker: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorcery: 4
4 Ponder
4 Pyroblast (Red Elemental Blast)
3 Spell Pierce (Mind Harness/Firespout)
3 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trygon Predator (Krosan Grip)
1 Relic of Progenitus
After having played Canadian Thresh for a LONG time, it's no longer suited for the meta-game. Zoo is such a difficult match-up it's rediculous.
However, when your creatures are bigger than theirs, well, it gets pretty easy after that.
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Tempo Thresh: Primer
My choices are UGR Tresh or, BW Deadguy (which I lack some sideboard cards for).
How are you losing to Zoo? The whole, "your creatures are bigger than theirs" thing is usually still true and most of that deck still dies to burn. They have to overextend into Daze in the early game and they don't have a draw engine to power through things when stuck on mana in the early game.
The reason why UGR Canadian Thresh is having issues in the modern metagame is that New Horizons and other Bant/Countertop decks are running more fat than just 4 Tarmogoyf. You used to be able to win or draw Goyf wars for the most part and get there with Geese and burn, but now that blue decks have 8-10 threats out of burn range, random matchups got much more difficult.
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Going through the Source's DTBF.
Zoo is favorable. A fetch/dual heavy manabase and lots of creatures that are in burn range is good news.
Merfolk is favorable. Sure, your mana denial suite is kinda dead here sans wasting Mutavault, but everything they play dies to burn and your creatures are bigger than theirs 1v1. Combined with four Swords out of the board in Red Blasts and you should get there.
Storm Combo is favorable, I really shouldn't have to explain this one.
Reanimator is even. You pound bad players, but it's even against the good ones. The games you win are by the skin of your teeth, and the ones you lose are blowouts.
New Horizons is awful for you. They run the same disruption you do and all of their threats are out of burn range. You need to go all in on mana denial and hope it gets there. It rarely does.
Countertop is even to unfavorable. It depends on how fragile they are in the early game and how much fat they run. If they run a nice varied removal package and 8 fatties, you're in trouble.
Bant Agro is even to unfavorable as well. They beat you in attrition wars because they topdeck a ton better than you, but that deck is super fragile early.
Bant Survival is the same way.
Goblins is favorable for the same reasons Merfolk and Zoo are.
Landstill is unfavorable because of how focused they are on agro post-ban and because they can just 1-for-1 you to death all day.
43 Land rolls you.
LED Dredge is rough, you might be able to get there against slower lists though.
Counter-Top-Thopter is even to unfavorable, depending on how stable their manabase is and how much removal they run.
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I have seen experienced players playing Can Thresh lists here in our area playing 2x Jace TMS in place of the 2x Rushing River/Wipe Away/Vendilion Clique. And it seems good.
One problem with the old tempo thresh builds, I don't know if you guys notice this, is that when the game goes long you eventually run out of answers. In my experience, most of my losses were due to these(running out of gas). There were games where I was a wasteland short of winning. Some games, I had my opponent mana screwed for quite a long time but exhausting my brainstorms and ponders, I still can't find a goose or a goyf.
Having Jace 2.0 solves this. All of its abilities are what the deck needs. You can have continues card quality/advantage with its 1 card scry or Brainstorm every turn. Creature bounce that could deal with troublesome creatures that got through counters and burn. And to a lesser extent, a finisher with its ultimate ability.
The only problem I see with Jace 2.0 though is its mana cost (that is, aside from its money cost). With the old list, you don't usually see 4 lands. With that you should cut down your fetchlands to maybe 4. And if you could squeeze in some basics that could probably help.
Hope this helps those who still want to update/tweak their Canadian Thresh lists. Sorry though, I could only contribute that which I have seen in our area, since I had already stopped and moved to test other decks. I still like this deck tho, and I hope its sees some more play and improvement.
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Smother
3 Extirpate
3 Hydroblast
2 Mind Harness
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge
What would you guys say about those comments, is this deck still viable. I know you can still get the nuts with wastes/stifles etc. to lock them out of the game.
There is a version of canadian thresh with jace that runs 21 land or something and 2 jaces. It got 9th at GP Madrid and forgoes mongeese in favor of 3 clique and 2 sower of temptation. Almost the same shell though.
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That sounds pretty nice. Ill take a look at that list. I was wondering if jace would be good in the deck but i didnt want to be one of the people that puts jace into any deck.
regarding which color to splash with the UG base, black looks like a better option right now than red. perish+extirpate are really good against the current meta game and provide more benefits than lightning bolt+fire spout.
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
Creature: 12
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Smother
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
2 Chain of Vapor
Sorcery: 4
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
3 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Submerge
2 Engineered Explosives
Chain of Vapor: Cheap way to deal with enchantments/planeswalkers etc. and my Nimble can't be target. Other than that, no other targets on my side except 2 drop creatures.
Smother: Takes out most of opposing creatures. Especially important to deal with KotR, Terravore and other large 3drops. 4+ casting cost = CoV targets.
Spell Pierce: Goes inn vs. decks with low creature count. Mainly control decks, other Horizons/Tempo decks and Burn heavy decks.
Engineered Explosives: Goes inn vs. creature heavy decks and other decks with low curve.
The deck in general has benefited from the inclusion of Dark Confidant IMO. Better draw, and less prone to lose steam. The draw-back is faster life-loss and less punching power and reach than UGR/UGW counter parts. Extirpates from the sideboard is gold in todays meta. Good in mirror, control and Survival builds to name a few.
EDIT:
Same basic shell, with a white splash over black instead.
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
Creature: 12
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshare
Planeswalker: 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorcery: 4
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
3 Dueling Grounds
3 Pithing Needle
3 Submerge
2 Trygon Predator
Noble Hierarch: Solid one drop, although not as agressive as Nimble Mongoose, he can accelerate Jace 2.0 and KotR. Good vs opposing Daze and gives me mana for counter back-up.
Knight of the Reliquary: Just a huge body with a useful seconday ability. The deck however cannot afford to activate his ability too often due to the lack of forest/plains to sacrifice. Useful nonetheless
Swords to Plowshare: Best cheap creature removal in the game. The deck can now afford to give away some lifepoints because of the additional body from KotR and kill con. Jace 2.0
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: Solid control card, and can be used as an alternative way to victory.
Dueling Grounds: Great vs beatdown strategies.
Trygon Predator: Flying, and comes in vs enchantment/artifact heavy decks.
Any thoughts (or comments) ?
D3@D
1) I run Quirion Dryad instead of Tarmogoyf. Other than saving me hundreds of dollars on this decision, the dryad doesn't care whats in the graveyard, like Tamogoyf and werebear do. With alot of dredge in my small meta, there is graveyard hate everywhere. Secondly, although Tarmogoyf enters the battlefield much stronger than Qurion Dryad (in most cases), the Dryad can reach the 7 power and toughness stronghold, and go beyond. Most of the time, the game won't last long enough for my Dryad to get stronger than a 6/6 or 7/7 (or it won't matter if he does), but once every five or six games, it does. Picture this scenario. I drop an early Dryad, use him as a blocker and control the board with countermagic for five or six turns as the deck does so well, and then bam. My opponent is at 11 life, I have an 8/8 dryad. I cast Fire/Ice, tap down their blocker, draw a card, swing for 8, and lightning bolt for the win (with Force of Will backup). This scenario happens and it happens more than you think.
2) Fire/Ice is the main reason for my U/G/r choice instead of the U/G/b choice. Sure, this card does not deal with a tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, or other playable Lecacy creatures. And yes, running this card without the almighty sceptor seems crazy. But the flexibility of this card is insane. This card has enabled me to get out of so many pinches, I could never cut it.
3) The third and final card I could never cut is Chain of Vapor. I only run 18 lands in my list (4 of which are wastelands). Needing to bounce a permanent for one mana is crucial to tempo, and Chain of Vapor does it perfectly with virtually no drawback. Although it can be copied, Quirion Dryad is the only target I have that can be targeted. And most of the time, I am bouncing something in the first three turns of the game, in which it doesn't hurt me at all.
It seems that this deck doesn't see much play these days (or at least doesn't finish very well anymore post survival), however I am still having alot of success with it. I will bring this to the Legacy Open in Charlotte in October (the only tournament within driving distance for me) and I will do my damnest to bring down everyone else. Thats my two cents. I hope this helps.
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Fire/Ice
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rushing River
4x Ponder
4x Mana Leak
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Mountain
5x Forest
9x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
Building a budget UGr threshold deck and was wondering if anyone had any input. I'm concerned about the mana-base but i'll gradually add duals as time goes on. Wasn't sure about Lorescale Coatl as being a two-of but couldn't figure out was to take out to add two more. Mana leak replaces daze and no force of will means less counter-magic, may pose as a problem. Thoughts?
I've always been a coatl fan and would run it as a 4 of cause it just gets big so quickly.
If you are going to max coatl then preordain seems good too.
If you're concerned about the manabase just keep adding fetches...its not exactly the cheapest solution but thats pretty much how thresh decks with low land counts opperate anyways. Also considering you curve out at like 3, 22 lands seems highish since most thresh builds run like ~18 and four of those are wastelands anyways.
I actually altered by subtracting an island, subtracting a Rushing River and adding 2 coatls. I ran more lands because I'm afraid of mana trouble and 21 actually ran somewhat smoothly for me when solitairing. I think preordain may be an overkill, but that's just my opinion. I'd rather be running more threats even though it does pump coatl and smooths more. Maybe drop a few vapors?
Disrupting shoal is the best you can do for a FOW replacement, shocklands are almost as good as duel lands, and there's no getting around wasteland/stifle