Nice, thanks for pointing that out. I've had more success with my aggressive tempo build than the more common control builds, but a good finish is still nice to see!
Do you have an updated list? I'm looking for something fun to play at GP Seattle in Nov. I know it will be Pox but wavering between a more standard build (which will be tempered by my limited card collection) and a Mardu Pyro build.
My list in the primer is still what I would run. I haven't been playing magic for several months but I doubt the meta has changed a whole lot.
As always, happy to answer any questions about the list.
As with any non-blue deck, the main issue is bad luck (or bad decisions). The list is pretty solid in my opinion and I've been moderately successful with it, winning about half my matches.... More than with other pox builds I've tried.
`Hey all, I've been messing with pox in my not particularly competitive meta (though the competitive types are all on delver decks so I am still well situated) and I am wondering if switching to a rack build is better given that I do not have some of the expensive staples, namely wasteland (though also liliana)
Currently this is what I run-- a more traditional aggro pox list
I'm just wondering if the rack version is going to be better than the aggro version? Cursed scroll does a lot of work in my experience, but everyone here seems to dislike it. Should I change the balance of discard to removal? I think I need to targeted instants.
@IamBob
Apologies for the delay. Life gets in the way of Magic.
Thoughts on your build/meta:
Rather than duress I would run funeral charm; it is a lot more versatile. It requires a bit more skill to use, so give it a chance if you are feeling up to it
Depending on the toughness of creatures in your meta I would consider testing out Disfigure in place of some number of innocent blood. Instant speed helps and it doesn't nuke our own creatures, which is relevant.
The rack's advantage over shrieking affliction is that it can deal damage to planeswalkers (Jace). If your meta doesn't have Jace, switch to affliction.
Lastly, think about picking up or borrowing some black fetch lands if you can. They help A LOT with SDT and bloodghast. Lili is obviously important too, but less so in this style of pox build.
...
I like the second deck you posted more than the first. You do seem to have a good grasp of the rack pox deck construction!
Main-deck cursed scroll is bad for several reasons off the top of my head:
I do not reliably empty my hand.
I do not reliably have 3 lands in play. They are in my hand (see the primer Section III).
It is a slow win-con in a deck that generally wants to win quickly rather than lock down. Be on the offensive!
We have a lot more spells to play than traditional prison builds, so we need the mana to play spells and activate factory/SDT rather than activate scroll.
I got a couple Lilianas and SDTs so I pretty much have the primer list, and I'm planning to play it at GP Seattle in Nov. I'm still working on the final configuration (I will have at least one Maze of Ith in there). I am also working on the sideboard since I don't have Chains or Nether Void and used most of my trading stock to get the other cards I needed.
What do you all think of Cabal Therapy in this deck? It is such a fun card! To be honest I am not sure what I would cut though.... Maybe side in for Disfigure against non-creature decks?
I will definitely post a report after the GP on how it went.
Played the primer list (with different sideboard since I don't have all the cards needed) at a local 50 man event and went 1-3. Two of my matches were against other Pox decks! Funny enough as I was looking at my notes before the matches I wondered what I would side in for a Pox mirror...*
Anyway, I won the first match against Pox splashing blue for Stifle. His intention was to Stifle the ability on Hunted Horror, but it never game up.
Second match was against Death & Taxes. I thought the games were close and could have gone either way. Thalia and Vryn Wingmare did slow me down.
Fourth was Miracles. This was brutal. In both matches I couldn't get him to discard enough good cards before he locked me down. I made him play out both games until Jace ultimated though. This seems like a really tough match if they get a good hand. I sided in Pithing Needles, Extirpate, Surgical Extraction and Cabal Therapy, but didn't get any of them when I needed them.
Any other ideas for beating Miracles/Countertop? It doesn't seem like a favorable match-up to me...though granted I am not a super-experienced player. Seems like you need some luck to get their good cards in the graveyard with Brainstorm around.
*One of the cards I sided in was Nevinyrral's Disk, but I never drew it.
Any other ideas for beating Miracles/Countertop? It doesn't seem like a favorable match-up to me...though granted I am not a super-experienced player. Seems like you need some luck to get their good cards in the graveyard with Brainstorm around.
*One of the cards I sided in was Nevinyrral's Disk, but I never drew it.
Well, Miracles is a deck that really scales with the skill and experience of its pilot. Last year, I played 10+ games against someone who recently put together a Miracles deck. I beat him every single game. I've also played against Miracles players who made the games extremely close and beat me most games. With that disclaimer, here's my take:
1. Land destruction is preferable to discard. Unlike most control decks, Miracles is a control deck that can survive off the top of their deck. You can expect counterbalance, if its in play with top, to counter a few of your spells. However, if you can keep them at a low land count, racks should be able to grind them down.
2. But just because they can survive in topdeck mode, doesn't mean Miracles wants to be in topdeck mode. Miracles has a lot of redundant cards that they would rather not draw against us. Terminus, multiple swords to plowshares, multiple tops, etc. Since the Miracles are shuffling their worst cards away, their draws actually become worse as the game wears on (because they're drawing their best stuff early). If Miracles is in topdeck mode and they don't have a top in play, their ability to control their draws diminishes.
3. If you can force a Liliana through their counter wall and keep her down, you will have a substantial advantage even if they already have the countertop combo in play. Liliana is a threat that Miracles has to answer or you can devastate their board.
4. Remove their win conditions where you can. As a control deck, Miracles is limited in win conditions. If you can keep germ tokens, factories, and angel tokens from beating you, the only thing you have to worry about is Jace. This is a match-up where The Rack is preferable to Shrieking Affliction.*
5. *The version of the deck with Monastery Mentor are faster because they have extra win conditions and thus the mentors must be removed before they begin making tokens. On the other hand, Mentors are quite clunky if the Miracles player draws too many.
6. Pay close attention to how many fetchlands they have in play. Miracles is a deck that abuses fetchlands, especially if they have multiple counterbalances and/or a top in play. Jace and cantips serve the same function as fetchlands: to reshuffle their deck if counterbalance whiffs and to smooth out their draws.
7. If you can get racks in play and empty their hand, there is little the Miracles player can do about it pre-board.
I'm sure Dromar or someone else can provide better advice. I think the best advice though is to test a Miracles list online or borrow a deck from a Miracles player. It's a good deck, but if you know where the weaknesses are, Miracles should not walk over pox. Since games can easily go long, the player with the better understanding of their deck and the match-up should win. In other words, practice really matters...
i think many of the cards here are already outclassed by newer cards..i think tombstalker is a better and faster beater than steel golem..i'm also not sure how forsaken wastes and kaervek's spite and volrath's stronghold help the deck..also, ghost quarter is NOT a substitue for wasteland, you can play it alongside it to supplement your LD package especially if you're also playing crucible of worlds..just replace em' with swamps if you don't have the wastelands yet..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
I'm not sure if 4 liliana is too much, and esitate to -1 and add one more Disfigure or eventually spinning darkness in main ? and what adding on side if i remove one (I have only one on stock)
Meta:
Infect
OmniTell
StoneBlade
Miracles
MUD
Nic Fit
Lands
Delver
What would you recommend for sideboard?
I have the most trouble with OmniTell and MUD. Of the above I know I will guaranteed see a mix of stoneblade, omni, miracles, infect, MUD, and nic fit. There might be other random stuff too, so I cannot go all in on these matchups either.
Considering Gate to Phyrexia and/or Ratchet Bomb for MUD - he has chalices. Mud seems scary
Bomb also helps against angel tokens Animate Dead for Omni or anything else I can nab
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I'm not sure if 4 liliana is too much, and esitate to -1 and add one more Disfigure or eventually spinning darkness in main ? and what adding on side if i remove one (I have only one on stock)
Why Filth? Do your creatures really need swampwalk?
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Necrogen mists is not a bad card though. The problem is it doesn't double as removal. I think I would only use this in an 8-rack build personally
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Although this pox variation doesn't rely on Lili as much as others, there really is no replacement for her. I put some suggestions for budget options at the bottom of the primer.
As far as over-extending... that is very player-dependent. This decklist allows you to keep cards in your hand and has enough threats that you can hold back if you need to do so. This deck definitely rewards skillful play.
I can't see how that could possibly be true since Shrieking Affliction got printed. It's The Rack 5-8 and it's absolutely amazing in the deck. The primer and the decklist in the primer definitely need to be updated to include that card.
Once upon a time there was a discard deck that ran Noetic Scales and Null Broochfor a virtual soft-lock. The fact both cards are 4cc is kind of lame but I thought I would bring it up. Having negate on a stick in mono black seems really fun though.
I do mention shrieking affliction in the primer, under the other possible cards section. However, I've found my list to have a good balance of rack effects and creature damage.
Leaning more toward racks opens your list up to more vulnerability from things such as life from the loam and chalice on 1. Plus the inconsistent draws without top lends the list toward running out of steam, unable to find a win-con, removal spell, or a discard effect when you need one. Some games you may even board out discard.. E.g. Vs. Dredge or reanimator. In that case you may have difficulty closing the game if relying on racks.
Big pox is the staple, and if you don't want to run 4, you should play a different deck.... Along those lines you should not run 4cmc spells, otherwise your advantage from casting pox is lessened.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91949
Nice, thanks for pointing that out. I've had more success with my aggressive tempo build than the more common control builds, but a good finish is still nice to see!
As always, happy to answer any questions about the list.
As with any non-blue deck, the main issue is bad luck (or bad decisions). The list is pretty solid in my opinion and I've been moderately successful with it, winning about half my matches.... More than with other pox builds I've tried.
Peace
Currently this is what I run-- a more traditional aggro pox list
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 dakmor salvage
13 swamp
2 thoughtseize
2 duress
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
2 raven's crime
4 smallpox
4 pox
3 The Rack
2 cursed scroll
1 sensei's divining top
4 bloodghast
2 tombstalker
4 Extirpate
2 black sun's zenith
2 darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 ensnaring bridge
2 spinning darkness
while reading through this thread, I am sort of thinking the following
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 dakmor salvage
13 swamp
2 thoughtseize
2 duress
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
2 raven's crime
4 smallpox
4 pox
2 spinning darkness
4 bloodghast
4 The Rack
1 shrieking affliction
1 sensei's divining top
4 Extirpate
2 black sun's zenith
2 darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
2 ensnaring bridge
I'm just wondering if the rack version is going to be better than the aggro version? Cursed scroll does a lot of work in my experience, but everyone here seems to dislike it. Should I change the balance of discard to removal? I think I need to targeted instants.
Apologies for the delay. Life gets in the way of Magic.
Thoughts on your build/meta:
Rather than duress I would run funeral charm; it is a lot more versatile. It requires a bit more skill to use, so give it a chance if you are feeling up to it
Depending on the toughness of creatures in your meta I would consider testing out Disfigure in place of some number of innocent blood. Instant speed helps and it doesn't nuke our own creatures, which is relevant.
The rack's advantage over shrieking affliction is that it can deal damage to planeswalkers (Jace). If your meta doesn't have Jace, switch to affliction.
Lastly, think about picking up or borrowing some black fetch lands if you can. They help A LOT with SDT and bloodghast. Lili is obviously important too, but less so in this style of pox build.
...
I like the second deck you posted more than the first. You do seem to have a good grasp of the rack pox deck construction!
Main-deck cursed scroll is bad for several reasons off the top of my head:
I do not reliably empty my hand.
I do not reliably have 3 lands in play. They are in my hand (see the primer Section III).
It is a slow win-con in a deck that generally wants to win quickly rather than lock down. Be on the offensive!
We have a lot more spells to play than traditional prison builds, so we need the mana to play spells and activate factory/SDT rather than activate scroll.
Peace
What do you all think of Cabal Therapy in this deck? It is such a fun card! To be honest I am not sure what I would cut though.... Maybe side in for Disfigure against non-creature decks?
I will definitely post a report after the GP on how it went.
Anyway, I won the first match against Pox splashing blue for Stifle. His intention was to Stifle the ability on Hunted Horror, but it never game up.
Second match was against Death & Taxes. I thought the games were close and could have gone either way. Thalia and Vryn Wingmare did slow me down.
Third was another Pox match. He had Cursed Scroll, Entomb for Vengeful Pharoah, which did some work. I need to acquire Scroll and Pharoah.
Fourth was Miracles. This was brutal. In both matches I couldn't get him to discard enough good cards before he locked me down. I made him play out both games until Jace ultimated though. This seems like a really tough match if they get a good hand. I sided in Pithing Needles, Extirpate, Surgical Extraction and Cabal Therapy, but didn't get any of them when I needed them.
Any other ideas for beating Miracles/Countertop? It doesn't seem like a favorable match-up to me...though granted I am not a super-experienced player. Seems like you need some luck to get their good cards in the graveyard with Brainstorm around.
*One of the cards I sided in was Nevinyrral's Disk, but I never drew it.
Well, Miracles is a deck that really scales with the skill and experience of its pilot. Last year, I played 10+ games against someone who recently put together a Miracles deck. I beat him every single game. I've also played against Miracles players who made the games extremely close and beat me most games. With that disclaimer, here's my take:
1. Land destruction is preferable to discard. Unlike most control decks, Miracles is a control deck that can survive off the top of their deck. You can expect counterbalance, if its in play with top, to counter a few of your spells. However, if you can keep them at a low land count, racks should be able to grind them down.
2. But just because they can survive in topdeck mode, doesn't mean Miracles wants to be in topdeck mode. Miracles has a lot of redundant cards that they would rather not draw against us. Terminus, multiple swords to plowshares, multiple tops, etc. Since the Miracles are shuffling their worst cards away, their draws actually become worse as the game wears on (because they're drawing their best stuff early). If Miracles is in topdeck mode and they don't have a top in play, their ability to control their draws diminishes.
3. If you can force a Liliana through their counter wall and keep her down, you will have a substantial advantage even if they already have the countertop combo in play. Liliana is a threat that Miracles has to answer or you can devastate their board.
4. Remove their win conditions where you can. As a control deck, Miracles is limited in win conditions. If you can keep germ tokens, factories, and angel tokens from beating you, the only thing you have to worry about is Jace. This is a match-up where The Rack is preferable to Shrieking Affliction.*
5. *The version of the deck with Monastery Mentor are faster because they have extra win conditions and thus the mentors must be removed before they begin making tokens. On the other hand, Mentors are quite clunky if the Miracles player draws too many.
6. Pay close attention to how many fetchlands they have in play. Miracles is a deck that abuses fetchlands, especially if they have multiple counterbalances and/or a top in play. Jace and cantips serve the same function as fetchlands: to reshuffle their deck if counterbalance whiffs and to smooth out their draws.
7. If you can get racks in play and empty their hand, there is little the Miracles player can do about it pre-board.
I'm sure Dromar or someone else can provide better advice. I think the best advice though is to test a Miracles list online or borrow a deck from a Miracles player. It's a good deck, but if you know where the weaknesses are, Miracles should not walk over pox. Since games can easily go long, the player with the better understanding of their deck and the match-up should win. In other words, practice really matters...
4 3 Steel Golem
PWs: 3
3 1BB Liliana of the Veil
Spells: 30
4 1 The Rack
3 1 Cursed Scroll
4 B Inquisition of Kozilek
1 B Funeral Charm
2 1B Diabolic Edict
1 BB Victim of Night
4 BB Hymn to Tourach
4 BB Sinkhole
4 BBB Pox
1 BBB Kaervek’s Spite
2 3 Phyrexian Totem
14 Swamp
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 0 Surgical Extraction
2 1 Pithing Needle
2 1 Relic of Progenitus
1 B Funeral Charm
2 3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 2B Engineered Plague
2 2B Forsaken Wastes
1 1BB Drown in Sorrow
2 3BB Spinning Darkness
i think many of the cards here are already outclassed by newer cards..i think tombstalker is a better and faster beater than steel golem..i'm also not sure how forsaken wastes and kaervek's spite and volrath's stronghold help the deck..also, ghost quarter is NOT a substitue for wasteland, you can play it alongside it to supplement your LD package especially if you're also playing crucible of worlds..just replace em' with swamps if you don't have the wastelands yet..
—Seal inscription
Here the list i'm going to play in two weeks in an 60-80 players tournament and in one month.
1x Filth
4x Bloodghast
Instant
1x Funeral Charm
2x Disfigure
Artifact
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x The Rack
Sorcery
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Pox
1x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
2x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
Land
2x Dakmor Salvage
4x Mishra's Factory
10x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Engineered Plague
1x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spinning Darkness
3x Surgical Extraction
I'm not sure if 4 liliana is too much, and esitate to -1 and add one more Disfigure or eventually spinning darkness in main ? and what adding on side if i remove one (I have only one on stock)
Meta:
Infect
OmniTell
StoneBlade
Miracles
MUD
Nic Fit
Lands
Delver
What would you recommend for sideboard?
I have the most trouble with OmniTell and MUD. Of the above I know I will guaranteed see a mix of stoneblade, omni, miracles, infect, MUD, and nic fit. There might be other random stuff too, so I cannot go all in on these matchups either.
Currently thinking:
4x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Animate Dead
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
2x Null Rod
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Toxic Deluge
Bold are things I am fairly certain of
Considering Gate to Phyrexia and/or Ratchet Bomb for MUD - he has chalices. Mud seems scary
Bomb also helps against angel tokens
Animate Dead for Omni or anything else I can nab
What is good against Nic Fit?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Why Filth? Do your creatures really need swampwalk?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Their really is no replacement for Lily
Necrogen mists is not a bad card though. The problem is it doesn't double as removal. I think I would only use this in an 8-rack build personally
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I was curious if necrogen mists was a good budget alternative to Lili? You can at least get the continual discard which is nice.
As far as over-extending... that is very player-dependent. This decklist allows you to keep cards in your hand and has enough threats that you can hold back if you need to do so. This deck definitely rewards skillful play.
I can't see how that could possibly be true since Shrieking Affliction got printed. It's The Rack 5-8 and it's absolutely amazing in the deck. The primer and the decklist in the primer definitely need to be updated to include that card.
Here is my list...
4 The Rack
4 Innocent Blood
4 Raven's Crime
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bloodghast
2 Noetic Scales
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp
Other cards I'm considering making room for are Sinkhole and Wretched Banquet.
I am also super tempted to find a way to squeeze in the Dakmor Salvage + Bloodghast + Nether Spirit combo.
Suggestions welcome.
Leaning more toward racks opens your list up to more vulnerability from things such as life from the loam and chalice on 1. Plus the inconsistent draws without top lends the list toward running out of steam, unable to find a win-con, removal spell, or a discard effect when you need one. Some games you may even board out discard.. E.g. Vs. Dredge or reanimator. In that case you may have difficulty closing the game if relying on racks.
Big pox is the staple, and if you don't want to run 4, you should play a different deck.... Along those lines you should not run 4cmc spells, otherwise your advantage from casting pox is lessened.
Peace
Current list
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
2 Funeral Charm
1 Raven's Crime
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Disfigure
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
1 Entomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
10 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
Have some dredge, and one of the best Lands players in the country in my meta, yeesh.